Morality's owner.

[AKACCMIOF]

So had the crappest lecture on medical -ethics on Friday, which became a gigantic train wreck for a (fiercely non-secular Christian) lecturer to have a rant about how atheist morality (like they get together and come up with a party line) is infecting medical ethics. Anyway, he said to all assembled that he had "never met an atheist who didn't steal their morality from religion". As a religious person with no belief in god, I personally was shocked at anyone acting like morality is personal property to anyone. My immediate thought was "so we can't just agree anymore".

Anyway, those are my two cents, I'm interested to see what y'all make of that.

Other gemstones included the unique revelation to me that as I belong to a religion designated "pantheist" I believe all knowledge is intuitive, the definition of good is living in line with nature, life after death is reincarnation and that there is some form of higher power. First I'd heard about it.

[Angry-Hatter]

Sounds like a real cockhead to me.

I love when religious folk insist that the egg came before the chicken. It just shows how little they know, or care to know, about human beings and the nature of morality as we know it.

It's true that a large portion of the sense of morality that most westerners hold stems from old Judeo-Christian textbooks. They'd have to be, seeing as most people are raised on that with their mothers milk. But it's also true that an equally large, or perhaps much larger portion of our morality DOESN'T come from Judeo-Christian teachings. We don't stone adulterers to death, now do we? That would seem to run counter to the teachings of the old testament.

But even the ideas that supposedly originated from the Bible (though they most likely outdate the Bible by however long modern humans have existed), like "be nice to people, and they'll be nice to you", the ORIGIN of an idea shouldn't matter if the idea itself is compelling enough. Martin Luther King Jr. based much of his ideas on racial equality on religious texts, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with the religious texts to agree with King's ideas.

[Gario]

At 11/19/11 04:51 PM, Angry-Hatter wrote: Sounds like a real cockhead to me.

QFE.

Yup, sounds like a moron, to me. I think people like that should realize that just because a religion came to one conclusion and non-religious people come to the same conclusion, it doesn't imply that one person 'stole' the ethics from another. It just means that the two groups have come to a consensual agreement on something - even if it's for very different reasons. It's the sort of thing that should help the two opposing groups find common ground, not create reasons to divide them even further.

[Tanglewood]

At 11/19/11 04:02 PM, AKACCMIOF wrote: Anyway, he said to all assembled that he had "never met an atheist who didn't steal their morality from religion"

Doesn't make sense. In fact, it makes so little sense, and is underpinned by so many faulty assumptions, that's hard to know where to start taking it apart.

For now, just consider the question "Which came first, morality or religion?" This isn't a "Chicken or Egg" style question. Morality must have predated religion because if it didn't we wouldn't have survived long enough as a species to establish religion in the first place!

Christopher Hitchens makes the same point very well in 'God Is Not Great', in response to those who believe we owe our ethical intuitions to the Ten Commandments. Consider, Exodus tells us that the Jews wandered in the desert for 40 years before reaching Mt. Sinai. If they'd been killing and robbing one another all that time they would have died out before they were even halfway there. They didn't need to be told that murder wasn't Kosher. That knowledge is innate, and is even exhibited by animals in captivity. Chimpanzees have been observed to care for one another, and protect vulnerable members of the tribe from harm. Even rats have been known to demonstrate an observable sense of fairness when distributing food rations. Did they steal their morality from religion? Of course not. A far better explanation is that the Biblical authors merely adapted their own innate sense of what was ethical into a religion, and unfortunately added a lot of other stuff about blasphemy and graven images based on their idea of what an all-powerful being would want.

[Tanglewood]

Also, sorry to be OT, but is it possible to edit our posts? If there's an edit button hiding anywhere I can't find it. Thanks.

[Iron-Hampster]

basic empathy dictates my morals, would there be any other people effected by my action? would they like it? would it harm them? do i hate them? etc.

[MrFlopz]

Well obviously Christians invented the idea that murder is wrong and that stealing is wrong. The human mind is incapable of making the connection that wronging another human being is the equivalent of someone wronging you. Only religion can make that connection for you...

If you derive all your morals what a holy book suggests you do to make it into heaven, then you HAVE no morals. Having morals means that you can look at it from the other person's perspective and that you have made a natural autonomous choice to act within certain constraints. Everyone has their own moral code. Sure there may be some overlap but I'm pretty murder and theft are looked at as pretty universal evils in almost all societies. You don't need religion to tell you that harming another human being is wrong and if you do than you are probably a sociopath. I share a few of the common sense morals with Christianity, but I disagree with much more. I don't believe homosexuality and sexual desire are evil and I don't believe that treating women as property is right. My beliefs on these subjects are purely secular and I'm sure much of this religious guy's moral code comes from secular sources. I'm sure he would be shocked and appalled to see a girl stoned to death because of the secular moral code in him saying that it is wrong.

[Ericho]

I imagine that the golden rule is simply something that has been around forever. Christianity is not the oldest religion, so perhaps the atheists actually stole it from whatever old religion is still used today? I know Hinduism is the oldest religion still practiced (at least in terms of the major ones) so maybe everyone stole it from the Hindus. Of course, there are a lot of atheists who claim that Jesus is a great sense of morals.

[AKACCMIOF]

At 11/20/11 02:44 PM, Ericho wrote: I know Hinduism is the oldest religion still practiced (at least in terms of the major ones) so maybe everyone stole it from the Hindus.

Hmmmmmm, you'd be looking at pre- Vedic Hinduism to find a moral code back for enough for EVERYONE to steal it off of and I'm not too sure the Golden Rule was the main focus of pre- Vedic Hinduism (not to disrespect Hindus). Back in prehistoric religion, faiths like Hinduism seem to have been more focused on a relationship with nature than theistic rule (the evidence we have for believing Hinduism is so old is an ancient clay picture of Shiva with a chest of corn). In fact, given that the Manhu- Samhita spent so long describing various ways in which untouchables should be oppressed, as much as I respect and admire Hindu philosophy I doubt we can find the Golden Rule back in prehistoric Hinduism.

Really, the first great example of religious teaching concerning the Golden Rule would be the teachings of Ahimsa in post- Vedic Hinduism, around 2000 BC. Among the first figures to teach this was Buddha, so if I was really dedicated I could probably claim that the lecturer, a Christian, stole his teachings from MY religion, founded by an Agnostic! Really though, even if you were to claim Buddhism came up with all the world's morals, Buddhism itself would refute you as "all [the teachings of Buddhism] can be found inside the self of every individual".

[ZJ]

At 11/20/11 02:44 PM, Ericho wrote: I imagine that the golden rule is simply something that has been around forever. Christianity is not the oldest religion, so perhaps the atheists actually stole it from whatever old religion is still used today? I know Hinduism is the oldest religion still practiced (at least in terms of the major ones) so maybe everyone stole it from the Hindus. Of course, there are a lot of atheists who claim that Jesus is a great sense of morals.

Could you say that Pagans are the oldest religion. I'd imagine that the first things people worshipped were things like the sun and water.

[WallofYawn]

If all our morals came from Christianity, then ask him this:

Why isn't usury considered sinful anymore? Think about this:

Insurance companies,
adjustable rate insurance/mortgages,
borrowing money,
interest,
loans.

All of these are sins punishable by damnation, and yet we openly partake in usury, and it's benefits.

Another one is envy:

Envy is encouraged every time you turn on the tv, open a magazine, or walk by a billboard.

There's more, but guess what system allows all sin to flourish, thrive, and be enjoyed by all?

Capitalism. Capitalism is an entire system which violates the very foundation of Christian morals and ethics. The ones we choose to follow from Christianity(treat others how you'd like to be treated, don't murder, rape, steal, etc.) are morals found in all religions.

Every religion preaches similar morals, so it's not the morals of Christianity which we adopt, but the morals of civilized society. Tell him to stick THAT in his metaphorical pipe, and smoke it. ;)

[WallofYawn]

Also, all Abrahamic religions(christianity, judaism, and islam) are derivatives of Zoroastrianism anyway, which was one of the first monotheistic religions. Not sure what morals and ethics they followed, but it seems that almost every western religion is similar in it's beliefs and morals.

And if you really want to fuck with him, suggest that he worships the same god that Jews and Muslims worship(its true anyway) that'll really throw him for a loop, lol.