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Just throw the US Constitution away

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Camarohusky
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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Oct. 31st, 2011 @ 11:04 AM Reply

At 10/31/11 01:02 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: You stated a reason...perhaps I was unclear in posting that I thought the reason was bad, ludicrous, or otherwise a rather slippery slope justification that basically amounts to justifying ignoring the Constitution and creating powers or abilities for the Executive Branch it was never meant to have?

I am not arguing for that sort of interpretation. The "Commander in chief" power has been stretched well beyond its textual source. I am merely speaking of situations where synonyms (close synonyms) are being used instead of the formal language of the Constitution.

I personally have a hard time with this.

Believing the merits or the substantive acts to be right or wrong should have no bearing on whether they are Constitutional. There are a ton of things about this I don't like, but I will still defend them as Constitutional, because they are.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Oct. 31st, 2011 @ 11:06 AM Reply

Completely agree.


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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Oct. 31st, 2011 @ 02:42 PM Reply

At 10/31/11 11:04 AM, Camarohusky wrote: I am not arguing for that sort of interpretation. The "Commander in chief" power has been stretched well beyond its textual source. I am merely speaking of situations where synonyms (close synonyms) are being used instead of the formal language of the Constitution.

Like when? Because the only examples I've read out of you are the AUMF, and I think at best we'll have to agree to disagree on the advisability of that. Otherwise I've just seen generalizations as to why we can't follow it "word for word", or allusions to "obsolete references" etc. But no real examples of references that are obsolete (though I can think of one already). Perhaps if I understood more of what you meant we might be able to have a more meaningful discussion?

Believing the merits or the substantive acts to be right or wrong should have no bearing on whether they are Constitutional.

Agreed.

There are a ton of things about this I don't like, but I will still defend them as Constitutional, because they are.

If they are, then I think it's only by the most liberal interpretation. The one that says "well it doesn't explicitly say you CAN'T do this...so if you do it this way...it's just legal by a hair". I just don't like that way of doing things, and my own reading of the spirit of the document makes me believe that the drafters intended war or military action to be a difficult thing for us to engage in, so as to be assured it's done for the right reasons. I think the framers would be extremely unhappy to see laws in effect that allow one person to order military strikes on foreign soil.


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Camarohusky
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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Oct. 31st, 2011 @ 06:10 PM Reply

At 10/31/11 02:42 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: Like when? Because the only examples I've read out of you are the AUMF, and I think at best we'll have to agree to disagree on the advisability of that. Otherwise I've just seen generalizations as to why we can't follow it "word for word", or allusions to "obsolete references" etc.

What I mean is that we should be able to follow th emeaning of the words used, regardless of whether we use the formalities of those words. I mean if Congress levied a "Gas fee" on $.05 per gallon, that would fall under that taxation power even though they didn't use the word "tax".

When two things mean the same thing, Congress (and whichever branch wanting to do the action) should be allowed to do the act that follows the meaning of the word used, without having to be constrained by using the formality of the word istelf. "Military force" for "war"; "fee" for "tax"; "international convention" for "treaty" and so on.

There are a ton of things about this I don't like, but I will still defend them as Constitutional, because they are.
I think the framers would be extremely unhappy to see laws in effect that allow one person to order military strikes on foreign soil.

Both yes and no. Unhappy to have the President order an attack on Libya without any declaration from Congress? Yes. Unhappy to have the President order and attack on Atlanta during the open and declared Civil War? Definitely not.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Nov. 8th, 2011 @ 07:32 PM Reply

Pay this Canuck no mind. He's simply insecure about his own country that he feels the need to condemn everything American.

Pathetic loser.
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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Nov. 8th, 2011 @ 09:21 PM Reply

The president CAN NOT order the military...Congress has to decide.

History class payed off.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Nov. 8th, 2011 @ 09:43 PM Reply

At 11/8/11 09:21 PM, NuclearWarFare wrote: The president CAN NOT order the military...Congress has to decide.

History class payed off.

The president can order the military. Basically the president can order short-term operations (things like taking out an enemy with a drone or capturing enemy troops) so long as Congress doesn't expressly forbid it, but his power stops at any long-term military actions unless Congress approves it.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Nov. 9th, 2011 @ 12:18 PM Reply

At 11/8/11 09:43 PM, djack wrote:
At 11/8/11 09:21 PM, NuclearWarFare wrote: The president CAN NOT order the military...Congress has to decide.

History class payed off.
The president can order the military. Basically the president can order short-term operations (things like taking out an enemy with a drone or capturing enemy troops) so long as Congress doesn't expressly forbid it, but his power stops at any long-term military actions unless Congress approves it.

;;;
You all seem to forget the so called 'war on terror'
Where he can order 'assets' to attack anywhere !
Even killing Americans in other countries , on heresay evidence alone !

Your country is becoming an elected dictatorship as opposed to a republic.
WHy do you think the Congressional part of the Constitution was put there...to make it look like a BIG important document ?
How about to curb the power of any oen person to take over control of the Nation.
THe Presdient(s) lately are all about pushing their own agenda's & fuck Congress or anything else that gets in their way.

Which is exactly why I started the 'throw the Constitution away thread' in the first place !


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Camarohusky
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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Nov. 9th, 2011 @ 12:39 PM Reply

At 11/9/11 12:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: You all seem to forget the so called 'war on terror'
Where he can order 'assets' to attack anywhere !
Even killing Americans in other countries , on heresay evidence alone !

Congress gave the President express permission to do so.

Your country is becoming an elected dictatorship as opposed to a republic.
WHy do you think the Congressional part of the Constitution was put there...to make it look like a BIG important document ?

Again, Congress gave the President express permission to do so.

There is definitely some tug of war going on, but anyone who thinks the President can do much without Congress just doesn't know the system.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Nov. 14th, 2011 @ 02:16 PM Reply

At 11/9/11 12:39 PM, Camarohusky wrote: There is definitely some tug of war going on, but anyone who thinks the President can do much without Congress just doesn't know the system.

;;;;
Perhap's this person has a better idea about the 'system' than I do.

http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold -silver-The-Modern-Presidency-Is-Dangero usly-Close-to-an-Elective-Dictatorship.a spx?langue=en&article=3698141312G10020

Odd how we both have a similar opinion .
Especially seeing as it has been pointed out , I don't have a clue.

Maybe I'm not that far off the mark after all !


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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 10th, 2012 @ 08:22 AM Reply

At first I was going to start a new thread...& realised it fits in this old one of mine .

The US Gov has recently rescinded Article 1 of the US Constitution.
THis new law , set up to protect elected officials by cancelling the right to assemble . By making it a Federal crime for anyone to come within a football feild of a protected elected official ! ! ! !So anyone who does/would assemble or protest , even if you are say in a building & unaware they have arrived....are guilty of a Federal offense now.
All thanks to the overwhelmingly supported by Congress "The Federal Restricted buildings & Grounds improvement Act "
https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_white heads_commentary/criminalizing_free_speech_is_this_what_demo cracy_looks_like

I wonder how long it will be before you officially annouce to the World that your Country is now the Fascist States of America.

Because a rose by any other name may small as sweet, but fascism by any other title is still repression & loss of freedom.

And although all the usual people will come & try & explain how wrong I am, & how necessary this is, how I don't have a clue....what I know to be true, in giving up your rights & freedoms with barely a wimper .... the terrorists of this world who wanted to topple the USA, may not have accomplished their goal of destroying the country...but you sure as hell can't deny they have been completely successful in destroying your way of life.

You all might want to start prcaticing your seig heils...or whatever other mindless rallying cry your mighty leaders order you to use!


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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 10th, 2012 @ 09:11 AM Reply

At 38 minutes ago, morefngdbs wrote: At first I was going to start a new thread...& realised it fits in this old one of mine .

Actually, somebody beat you to the punch.

The US Gov has recently rescinded Article 1 of the US Constitution.

No they have not. Article 1 has to do with the powers of Congress. Perhaps you are speaking about the First Amendment.

THis new law , set up to protect elected officials by cancelling the right to assemble . By making it a Federal crime for anyone to come within a football feild of a protected elected official ! ! ! !So anyone who does/would assemble or protest , even if you are say in a building & unaware they have arrived....are guilty of a Federal offense now.
All thanks to the overwhelmingly supported by Congress "The Federal Restricted buildings & Grounds improvement Act "

This bill is merely a redrafting of an older law...

Also, it only criminalizes the disruption of Government Function. Under the doctrine of content neutral - time, place, and manner restrictions, this would likely be constitutional. This is because it does not foreclose protesting or the right to protest, it merely forecloses a certain manner of conduct that is disruptive to the governmental functioning.

The doctrine of limited public forum also would likely lean in favor of constitutionality as well.

https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_white heads_commentary/criminalizing_free_speech_is_this_what_demo cracy_looks_like

I suggest, and this is for all NGers, when you want to talk about a bill or a law, either post the direct language, or nothin at all. Only posting an opinion paper, largely written by folks who haven't read the bill, don't understand the bill, and have no experience with the subject of 1st Amendment Jurisprudence.

You all might want to start prcaticing your seig heils...or whatever other mindless rallying cry your mighty leaders order you to use!

Melodrama. Pure and simple. The economy and the smart phone each have had 1,000 times more an impact on the average American's life than Terrorists, or even laws that mildly slim the First Amendment.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 11:08 AM Reply

At 2 days ago, Camarohusky wrote: The economy and the smart phone each have had 1,000 times more an impact on the average American's life than Terrorists, or even laws that mildly slim the First Amendment.

;;;;
Absolutely .
THe amount of danger the average American is in because of terrorism is so minute to be almost undetectable. Not that you shouldn't have police resourses working at keeping an eye on you. But to inflict homeland security, & a host of laws taking away your rights, on the American people is ludicris.
Giving up your freedoms, while your Government runs around the world swatting a terrorist or 2 with multi million dollar weapons systems is asinine. IF the average American were to swat flys in their home, the way the US Gov has dealt with terrorism in the world... they would be swatting at them with a ten pound sledge hammer IMO.

What has been done to you as taxpayers bailing out multibillion dollar banking Institutions who are 100% responsible for the mess they are in, is why you are still seeing a continuation of slow/no growth property values still in decline & a dollar that has never recovered...& this is 4 years since the 2008 melt down !


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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 02:36 PM Reply

At 3 hours ago, morefngdbs wrote: What has been done to you as taxpayers bailing out multibillion dollar banking Institutions who are 100% responsible for the mess they are in, is why you are still seeing a continuation of slow/no growth property values still in decline & a dollar that has never recovered...& this is 4 years since the 2008 melt down !

People love to talk and talk and talk about how bad the bailouts were without knowing anything about them. While I don't like the idea of rewarding those who did stupid things and were partially responsible for the mess we got into, the other option was much worse. The bailouts provided a life preserve for the economy. Had those billions of dollars been left to their whims, that money would have disappeared, and the vast majority of it out of the savings of the regular American.

What I would have preferred was a bailout with massive strings attached and a short leash. The part about the bailout that looks the worst and is the target for those who know nothing of securities is that there were no strings attached, and thus the companies collectively took about 1% of it and wasted it.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 03:10 PM Reply

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At 10/15/11 10:39 AM, morefngdbs wrote:
Well we sure are lucky the only thing you've got the power over is whether you shit in your pants, or not.
Probably all you can do to keep that little problem figured out everyday.

You certainly aren't posting anything that rebuts my argument that the Constituion of the US is gradually being whittled away & if that continues, you will have none of the rights you used to have.
Assholes, like yourself, are completely oblivious to that FACT, is the reason its happening so quickly

Ben Franklin ( you know one of the guy's responsible for the Declaration of Independance ) said it best
quote- "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temorary safey, deserve neither liberty nor safety . "
The Protect America Act, the Patriot act, the Military Commissions Act.
All of these are taking your liberty & rights as citizens away, & gaining you little or nothing in safety !

So as I said, when I opened this thread, throw away the Constitution...you're no longer being governed under it, much of your freedoms & liberty is now restricted .

So in my opinion...the terrorists have won.
Safety cannot be bought.
You have surrenderd your rights & liberties to a police state & Government . You have chosen to hide behind someone (your President) as if that can somehow insulate all of you from terrorists & other problems.
I call that cowardice,& I'm just calling it as I see it.

Right on.
I'm tired of the cowards terrified of the big bad terrorist third world goat herder threat as well.

At 31 minutes ago, Camarohusky wrote: snip

What are your thoughts on the killing of his 16 year old son?

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 04:00 PM Reply

At 48 minutes ago, VictorGrey wrote: What are your thoughts on the killing of his 16 year old son?

Who killing their 16 year old son?

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 04:08 PM Reply

At 7 minutes ago, Camarohusky wrote:
At 48 minutes ago, VictorGrey wrote: What are your thoughts on the killing of his 16 year old son?
Who killing their 16 year old son?

The killing of anwar alwaki's 16 year old son.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 04:39 PM Reply

At 28 minutes ago, VictorGrey wrote: The killing of anwar alwaki's 16 year old son.

Not sure I mind at all. Just because he's 16 doesn't mean he has the right to act stupid and make poor decisions.. His Dad was killed in a military strike, but this smart military aged boy chose to spend time with another high target (I wouldn't buy for a second that he didn't know).

It's tragic, but when has anything involving war and the military been completely clean? Relative to the other options, a few civilians killed in surgical strikes is as clean as a freshly bleached floor.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 04:43 PM Reply

Ok then.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 04:49 PM Reply

this thread is pure bullshit. America is as free as it gets in the world.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 06:00 PM Reply

At 1 hour ago, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: this thread is pure bullshit. America is as free as it gets in the world.

;;;;
THere is a word for what you now are...& it isn't 'free'

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/275-42/8599-carl-gib son-america-has-become-a-fascist-police-state


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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 06:03 PM Reply

At 1 minute ago, morefngdbs wrote: THere is a word for what you now are...& it isn't 'free'

You really could have whipped TDG there... But, alas, you zip to conspiracy theory talk and make yourself look foolish.

There are numerous comparisons you could have made to show this.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/275-42/8599-carl-gib son-america-has-become-a-fascist-police-state

Opinion used as fact = completely worthless.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 06:35 PM Reply

At 1 hour ago, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: this thread is pure bullshit. America is as free as it gets in the world.

well thanks to NDAA and the Patriot act we are clearly seeing that nobody in power is very anxious to keep it that way.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 06:40 PM Reply

At 3 minutes ago, Iron-Hampster wrote:
At 1 hour ago, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: this thread is pure bullshit. America is as free as it gets in the world.
well thanks to NDAA and the Patriot act we are clearly seeing that nobody in power is very anxious to keep it that way.

I wouldn't say that America is the most free, but even with things like the NDAA and the Patriot Act, we still are very much near the top. It'd take a lot of eroding to change that.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 07:11 PM Reply

At 29 minutes ago, Camarohusky wrote:
At 3 minutes ago, Iron-Hampster wrote:
At 1 hour ago, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: this thread is pure bullshit. America is as free as it gets in the world.
well thanks to NDAA and the Patriot act we are clearly seeing that nobody in power is very anxious to keep it that way.
I wouldn't say that America is the most free, but even with things like the NDAA and the Patriot Act, we still are very much near the top. It'd take a lot of eroding to change that.

agreed I don't see the majority of europe with freedom to use firearms like we do, or free speech, or other unique qualities in america

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 07:29 PM Reply

At 24 minutes ago, Camarohusky wrote: Opinion used as fact = completely worthless.

;;;
Opinion you call it !
Let us refer to some of what's in that ink.

About corporations making large payments to elected officials elect/re-election campaigns
Are you really saying that isn't what is happening in America ?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/12/labor-leaders-lib eral-groups-decry-corporate-political-spending-while-unions/

that link speaks about Banks fraudulently foreclosing on home owners ...you saying that hasn't happened ?
Why the settlement in these cases then ?
http://www.stripes.com/news/lenders-agree-to-22-million-sett lement-for-illegally-foreclosing-on-troops-homes-1.144731

Bankers paying themselves record bonuses, even though their greed caused the 2008 meltdown & tax payer bailouts !
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/oct/12/us-bankers-re cord-pay-bonuses

Americans & any one else able to be arrested & held without due process !
I'm not even going to post a link to that you & I and anyone else on here that can read know that is & has been done. Let us not start bringing the NDAA up yet again !
Killing Americans by simply labeling them terrrorists...already done by Bush & Obama. No link needed I mentioned it elsewhere its all over the internet, especially the American never convicted & never officially accused killed in Yemen by drone attack !

Nonviolent political protesters beaten , maced by heavily armed tactical squads...check out Ows videos on You tube, punch in Oakland & Seattle to name a couple of good ones !

Oakland Mayor openly admitting to a coordinated conference call with others to take down those vicious OWS thugs !
The shooting of an unarmed ex armed forces in the head with a tear gas canaster at point blank range ! OWS Oakland.
The 83 year old woman in Seattle...riot police everywhere are still quivering at how dangerous she was & the preganat lady they took down at the same Seattle attack !

Let us not forget the completely similar values of a Facist state that the Patriot Act imposes on Americans,

Finally the Musolini reference to facism should really be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State & Corporate power.
And you guy's are right there, right now.
Refusing to believe in the truth when the truth is right in front of you has a name as well Carmohuskey ...its called DENIAL .
The Republican & Democratic Party pretend to be different & have different values etc....I as an outsider see no difference in Bush running the War on Terror, or Obama running it.
Guantanamo is still open for business , The Libs & the Demo's will always unite to serve their common puposes.

Remember that Facism is-" the system of government that cartelizes the private sector, centrally plans the economy to subsidise producers, exhalts the police state as the source of order, denies fundamental rights & liberties to individuals & makes the Executive Branch the unlimited master of society."

Exactly what part of that discription is now missing from your country's way of doing business at home or abroad ?
None, guy's ...In my opinion, none at all.

If you want to be in denial , I can't make you wake up & smell the coffee. But if you continue down the road you've been on for the last 12 + years & what has been tried in your past, you deniers are in for a rude awakening !


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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 08:01 PM Reply

At 30 minutes ago, morefngdbs wrote: If you want to be in denial , I can't make you wake up & smell the coffee. But if you continue down the road you've been on for the last 12 + years & what has been tried in your past, you deniers are in for a rude awakening !

What coffee? The coffee that someone who doesn't live here, who doesn't really know the law, and who gets their 'facts' from opinion pieces, claims to exist?

I'll trust my own eyes and ears, as well as my experience with the law, thank you.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 12th, 2012 @ 09:54 PM Reply

At 1 hour ago, Camarohusky wrote:
At 30 minutes ago, morefngdbs wrote: If you want to be in denial , I can't make you wake up & smell the coffee. But if you continue down the road you've been on for the last 12 + years & what has been tried in your past, you deniers are in for a rude awakening !
What coffee? The coffee that someone who doesn't live here, who doesn't really know the law, and who gets their 'facts' from opinion pieces, claims to exist?

agreed we don't need a canadians "Who know US law" biased gold articles and fox news.

I'll trust my own eyes and ears, as well as my experience with the law, thank you.

agreed I its easily interpretable it doesn't take a law degree. besides traffic laws I comply completely with the law.

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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 13th, 2012 @ 11:33 AM Reply

At 15 hours ago, Camarohusky wrote:
At 30 minutes ago, morefngdbs wrote: If you want to be in denial
What coffee? The coffee that someone who doesn't live here, who doesn't really know the law, and who gets their 'facts' from opinion pieces, claims to exist?

I'll trust my own eyes and ears, as well as my experience with the law, thank you.

;;;
That's the best you can after I come back about my "opinion piece"
Yet those points of the "opinion piece" you have not bothered to rebutt even one of them...& I realise why ,You Cannot.
Everything I picked out of the piece is true, the links are truth & the fucking truth hurts when its in your face.
Canadian or any other Country, who are outside looking at the so called home of the free, along with more & more Americans are realising The USA has become more facist than free.
But please keep up the denial.
plays right into the corporate agenda.
Much easier to pretend everything about the USA is perfect, than it is to attempt to change the destructon of the US Constitution & loss of your personal rights & freedoms.


Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

SolInvictus
SolInvictus
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Response to Just throw the US Constitution away Mar. 13th, 2012 @ 11:42 AM Reply

At 16 hours ago, morefngdbs wrote: ...But if you continue down the road you've been on for the last 12 + years & what has been tried in your past, you deniers are in for a rude awakening !

i'm not sure that what you brought up really does rival any of the US's history from more than 12 years ago.


VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
Heathenry; it's not for you
"calling atheism a belief is like calling a conviction belief"

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