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Iron-Hampster
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 02:05:57 Reply

Banks make money by borrowing and spending other peoples money. This money is invested into the stock market, wich can result in gain or loss.

The banks lost, but they didn't lose their own money, they lost their customer's money. In response, they appealed to the government to bail them out, in order to save us from losing our money. The government responded by giving the banks more of our money, in fact they gave enough of it so that the banks could get a nice kick ass bonus for all of their executives.

The banks payed that money back over time, with more of our money (remember how they make their money?), and the government was happy to take that money and give it back to the population, by building more bombs and sending them over seas to blow up brown people and secure the oil fields for the oil companies, who still to this day charge us an arm and a leg plus a blowjob as a tip for their so called "still plentiful" goods.

Did I meantion that banks charge you to use your money?


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Camarohusky
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 13:02:45 Reply

At 12/10/11 01:42 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: Once again you just say stuff out of your ass with no evidence to back it up, like I said, find a fucking tyt article that reported facts wrong or tried to hide facts.

VK, don't get sucked into the lore and sexiness of 'facts'. The mere existence of a fact doesn't mean anything. Facts are merely facts. They do nothing but indiciate a single bland piece of information. It's the story that counts. Facts are fungible.

Korriken is not saying the facts of the Young Turks are wrong. he's saying their story is biased and one sided. His point that TYT has been salivating over OWS like Zoidberg when someone mentions food. They haven't reported much, if at all, on a similar bottom up grass roots (though at least partially astroturfed) Tea party movement.

So when it comes down to it, regardless of whether the facts that TYT puts forth are 100% true or not, they are extremely biased. They choose the facts they out forward and the story they craft is done so through the lenses of their beliefs, and they make little effort to hide that fact.

In conclusion, fatcs aren't gospel. They are merely tools through which people craft stories.

Korriken
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 14:43:07 Reply

At 12/10/11 01:42 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:
Once again you just say stuff out of your ass with no evidence to back it up, like I said, find a fucking tyt article that reported facts wrong or tried to hide facts.

show me a few good articles that Cenk did about the tea party. finding the negative ones is EASY, he has a huge pile of them. I rest my case.

Exept where he says they have been fighting for similar things than OWS even tough they do not go after corporations themselves

Tea party wants fewer taxes and more economical freedom... well most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

OWS wants more regulation and to end corporate bailouts.. well, most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

Exept not...

Bias doesn't mean lying. Bias is spinning positive stories for those you like into something major, while downplaying the negative stories about them. the opposite is also true, playing up the negative aspects of your opponents and downplaying their positives. THAT is bias.

Also you're done? Great, not like anything could have made you change your mind anyways.

not when I know I'm right. Also, Camarohusky hit the nail on the head.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Camarohusky
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 15:51:58 Reply

At 12/10/11 02:43 PM, Korriken wrote: Tea party wants fewer taxes and more economical freedom... well most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

OWS wants more regulation and to end corporate bailouts.. well, most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

You at least have to admit that they both want to end corporate welfare (i.e. the bailouts and TARP and stuff).

Their methods for doing this, however, diverge significantly.

VenomKing666
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 15:57:11 Reply

At 12/10/11 01:02 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
VK, don't get sucked into the lore and sexiness of 'facts'. The mere existence of a fact doesn't mean anything. Facts are merely facts. They do nothing but indiciate a single bland piece of information. It's the story that counts. Facts are fungible.
Korriken is not saying the facts of the Young Turks are wrong. he's saying their story is biased and one sided. His point that TYT has been salivating over OWS like Zoidberg when someone mentions food. They haven't reported much, if at all, on a similar bottom up grass roots (though at least partially astroturfed) Tea party movement.

I guess I see your point here, and I would agree about that, thanks for explaining that.

So when it comes down to it, regardless of whether the facts that TYT puts forth are 100% true or not, they are extremely biased. They choose the facts they out forward and the story they craft is done so through the lenses of their beliefs, and they make little effort to hide that fact.

By that definition everyone is biased (And everybody is). I was speaking in terms of massive bias or outright lying, or hiding critical information from the viewer, which unlike fox news I am not aware of the people from TYT doing.

In conclusion, fatcs aren't gospel. They are merely tools through which people craft stories.

A fact, evidence is by definition true, if it is altered then it becomes untrue, and therefore is not a fact anymore.

VenomKing666
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 15:59:17 Reply

At 12/10/11 03:51 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 12/10/11 02:43 PM, Korriken wrote: Tea party wants fewer taxes and more economical freedom... well most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

OWS wants more regulation and to end corporate bailouts.. well, most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.
You at least have to admit that they both want to end corporate welfare (i.e. the bailouts and TARP and stuff).

Their methods for doing this, however, diverge significantly.

I believe they could be strong allies, the thing is that corporations that tend to be greedy don't want regulations so it's easier to not play by the rules. So I would agree some regulation is definitely important, especially health regulations.

VenomKing666
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 16:03:43 Reply

At 12/10/11 02:43 PM, Korriken wrote:
show me a few good articles that Cenk did about the tea party. finding the negative ones is EASY, he has a huge pile of them. I rest my case.
Tea party wants fewer taxes and more economical freedom... well most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

Fewer taxes for who? As for less government interventions... Are you sure it's a good thingfor that to happen in america? Especially regarding big companies? I do not mean to trash the tea party, I believe they want what is best for their country as much as OWS, just wonderin'. Or maybe you do not have a personal opinion on that.

OWS wants more regulation and to end corporate bailouts.. well, most of em anyway, some are nuttier than others.

That's pretty much it, yep.

Bias doesn't mean lying. Bias is spinning positive stories for those you like into something major, while downplaying the negative stories about them. the opposite is also true, playing up the negative aspects of your opponents and downplaying their positives. THAT is bias.

Oh yeah, that's true.

not when I know I'm right. Also, Camarohusky hit the nail on the head.

He sort of did.

Camarohusky
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 16:13:25 Reply

At 12/10/11 03:57 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: By that definition everyone is biased (And everybody is). I was speaking in terms of massive bias or outright lying, or hiding critical information from the viewer, which unlike fox news I am not aware of the people from TYT doing.

TYT is pretty biased. They are not biased to the point of altering the truth, however if you were to make a "news of 2011" based solely on TYT reports you would have a very liberal and very small picture of world news. This small picture isn't due to lack of resources, but due to selective reporting.

A fact, evidence is by definition true, if it is altered then it becomes untrue, and therefore is not a fact anymore.

But one fact alone is almost meaningless. Take these three facts.

A man has a gun.
A person died.
The man has money in his wallet.

Each of these facts mean very little. Put them together to make a story and you have, a man with a gun, killed another person and took his money. Or is it, a person left the bank and killed someone trying to mug him? Or is it a police officer who shot a sucpect? Or is it a tragic heart attack, and some random guy has a gun?

This is pretty extreme, but this is how facts work. One fact alone is meaningless. It does not get meaning until someone creates a story with it and gives it meaning. After that even the same exact set of facts in the same sequence can have different meanings. The Libyan people were 'rebels' in the Government's eyes, but they were 'freedom fighters' in our eyes. Two VERY different stories based off the exact same facts.

camobch0
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 19:15:59 Reply

Just went to the first Occupy meeting for my small city, and we're already planning future meetings and community action projects including getting started on a soup kitchen that'll run 3 days a week with no limits, and a group of knitters making clothes for local homeless. It actually felt like legitimate democracy, every person had a say on every decision. We had an open mic with a voted on time limit so everyone could say their piece at one point. This movement isn't just about protesting, it is about educating and helping EVERYONE.


A vagina is really just a hat for a penis.

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Camarohusky
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 19:24:35 Reply

At 12/10/11 07:15 PM, camobch0 wrote: This movement isn't just about protesting, it is about educating and helping EVERYONE.

So in other words it's a bunch of hippie social themes rolled under the vague confines of anti-corporate angst?

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-10 20:44:59 Reply

At 12/10/11 07:24 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
So in other words it's a bunch of hippie social themes rolled under the vague confines of anti-corporate angst?

So in other words you're a conservative shut-in who has to call anyone who likes to help other human beings a hippie?


A vagina is really just a hat for a penis.

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VenomKing666
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 07:51:14 Reply

At 12/10/11 08:44 PM, camobch0 wrote:
At 12/10/11 07:24 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
So in other words it's a bunch of hippie social themes rolled under the vague confines of anti-corporate angst?
So in other words you're a conservative shut-in who has to call anyone who likes to help other human beings a hippie?

Thank you very fucking much for that, I almost ate my keyboard out of anger when I read his comment.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 07:55:53 Reply

At 12/10/11 04:13 PM, Camarohusky wrote: TYT is pretty biased. They are not biased to the point of altering the truth, however if you were to make a "news of 2011" based solely on TYT reports you would have a very liberal and very small picture of world news. This small picture isn't due to lack of resources, but due to selective reporting.

They report what most other news outlets tend to ignore, sometimes critically important information. It's not about ONLY watching TYT but all kinds of media outlets, TYT being an important piec eof the puzzle.

But one fact alone is almost meaningless. Take these three facts.

A man has a gun.
A person died.
The man has money in his wallet.

Each of these facts mean very little. Put them together to make a story and you have, a man with a gun, killed another person and took his money. Or is it, a person left the bank and killed someone trying to mug him? Or is it a police officer who shot a sucpect? Or is it a tragic heart attack, and some random guy has a gun?

We don,t know in that casde and this requires more investigation (aka more fact gathering)

This is pretty extreme, but this is how facts work. One fact alone is meaningless.

No, I am sorry but you are an idiot. I don't like to call names but when people say something that stupid I just have to.

Listen, a fact is not meaningless, a fact means what it means, that's it.

It does not get meaning until someone creates a story with it and gives it meaning. After that even the same exact set of facts in the same sequence can have different meanings. The Libyan people were 'rebels' in the Government's eyes, but they were 'freedom fighters' in our eyes. Two VERY different stories based off the exact same facts.

Exept these are two BIASED points of view of the same events, the truth still is that one of these points of view (or both) may be wrong. And therefore not facts. It's not because we don't know all the information that facts are suddently meaningless.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 12:30:18 Reply

At 12/11/11 07:55 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: No, I am sorry but you are an idiot. I don't like to call names but when people say something that stupid I just have to.

A fact is meaningless. One fact is narrow and only tells one piece of information. Without a story or context a fact can be twisted to mean anything and therefore has no real meaning.

Listen, a fact is not meaningless, a fact means what it means, that's it.

And this is why you'll be mislead by the news becuase you are bound to be follow the story because you're too distracted by sparkly facts.


Exept these are two BIASED points of view of the same events, the truth still is that one of these points of view (or both) may be wrong. And therefore not facts. It's not because we don't know all the information that facts are suddently meaningless.

No shit, there genious. The STORIES aren't facts. A ball is not a triangle and a car is not a filet mingon. However, bot the stories I presented were created off of the same facts, and guess what? These stories are extrmely divergent! TYT can look at the same facts as me, Fox, CNN, and every otehr American and there story is gonig to be anti-corporate. It always will be. That's the story they choose to tell with the facts at hand.

My story of OWS is shaped through my experience with these sort of people in numerous stages of my life. I take the same facts and see them and project them through my lens. What TYT sees as heroic Egypt-style protestors, I see as stinky bored children yearning for a cause. It's not like we're lookin at different things.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

Don't. You don't understand what you're trying to explain.

Iron-Hampster
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 13:24:34 Reply

you are supposed to call them a saint when they feed the poor, and a communist when they ask why the poor are starving, not the other way around.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 13:42:58 Reply

At 12/11/11 01:24 PM, Iron-Hampster wrote: you are supposed to call them a saint when they feed the poor, and a communist when they ask why the poor are starving, not the other way around.

Let's not be disingenuous here. It's great and all some group is now helping to feed and clothe the poor, but that is not inherently due to this so called movement. I'm a little appalled by this actually because if these people had the capability to do these things.. then why weren't they doing it to begin with? They're just using the Occupy movement as a title to get things done because it's topical.

I don't feel like arguing that this is being done without government intervention but ffffffffffffffffffffff.


Wut?

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Iron-Hampster
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 15:21:11 Reply

At 12/11/11 01:42 PM, SuperDeagle wrote:

I'm a little appalled by this actually because if these people had the capability to do these things.. then why weren't they doing it to begin with? They're just using the Occupy movement as a title to get things done because it's topical.

last time I checked, Charity was optional. you see various corporations spending more on advertising for their little charity promotions than they actually donate to that said charity, yet its still just the greatest damn thing ever.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 15:26:13 Reply

At 12/11/11 03:21 PM, Iron-Hampster wrote:
At 12/11/11 01:42 PM, SuperDeagle wrote:
I'm a little appalled by this actually because if these people had the capability to do these things.. then why weren't they doing it to begin with? They're just using the Occupy movement as a title to get things done because it's topical.

last time I checked, Charity was optional. you see various corporations spending more on advertising for their little charity promotions than they actually donate to that said charity, yet its still just the greatest damn thing ever.

Irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Actually, that has nothing to do with anything in this thread at all.


Wut?

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VenomKing666
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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 19:24:41 Reply

At 12/11/11 12:30 PM, Camarohusky wrote: A fact is meaningless. One fact is narrow and only tells one piece of information. Without a story or context a fact can be twisted to mean anything and therefore has no real meaning.

What the hell are you even talking about?

An example of a possible fact would be: A man died at 7:30 this morning.

Then a story would be me telling how it happenned.

How can you distort the original fact? You cannot. Sure you could lie about it but then it's not a fucking fact anymore.

And this is why you'll be mislead by the news becuase you are bound to be follow the story because you're too distracted by sparkly facts.

Wow, stop talking. "WHO CARES ABOUT EVIDENCE IT'S MEANINGLESS"

You are making a fool of yourself.

No shit, there genious. The STORIES aren't facts. A ball is not a triangle and a car is not a filet mingon. However, bot the stories I presented were created off of the same facts, and guess what? These stories are extrmely divergent!

And one of the stories you made might be itself a fact while the other one isnt.

TYT can look at the same facts as me, Fox, CNN, and every otehr American and there story is gonig to be anti-corporate. It always will be. That's the story they choose to tell with the facts at hand.

TYT is not anti-corporate, you are an idiot.

My story of OWS is shaped through my experience with these sort of people in numerous stages of my life. I take the same facts and see them and project them through my lens. What TYT sees as heroic Egypt-style protestors, I see as stinky bored children yearning for a cause. It's not like we're lookin at different things.

Yet you cannot be both right, either you or TYT is wrong. Guess who it is.

Don't. You don't understand what you're trying to explain.

You have no right to say what anybody understands in this thread with the kind of posts you make.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-11 23:22:36 Reply

At 12/11/11 07:24 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
What the hell are you even talking about?

An example of a possible fact would be: A man died at 7:30 this morning.

Then a story would be me telling how it happenned.

How can you distort the original fact? You cannot. Sure you could lie about it but then it's not a fucking fact anymore.

I think this sums it up nicely. watch.
A man died at 7:30 this morning. his body has one hole in the center of his chest, where he bled out. A man was later found with a 9mm pistol in his coat and was arrested.

obviously the man is guilty, right?

And this is why you'll be mislead by the news becuase you are bound to be follow the story because you're too distracted by sparkly facts.
Wow, stop talking. "WHO CARES ABOUT EVIDENCE IT'S MEANINGLESS"

You are making a fool of yourself.

Camaro is right actually. What's a fact? something you believe to be true. FACT: Americans landed on the moon... or did they? they teach it as a fact in school and want you to believe it without question. but did we REALLY land on the moon? to some the "fact" is that it staged and we didn't really go to the moon.

To some its a "fact" that JFK was killed by the mafia, to some the "fact" is that JFK was killed by the CIA.

Everything in life is all about perception rather than reality. to a 5 year old $10 is a LOT of money. to a millionaire $10 is less than pocket change. Hell I can't even watch the news without the old woman im renting a room from going on a rant about how "bush destroyed the economy and the republicans are keeping the economy down in order to make obama look bad." is it fact? to her it is, to me it isn't.

And one of the stories you made might be itself a fact while the other one isnt.

and how do you know which is fact and which is crap? if you believe everything someone tells you, then you're the fool. how do you know TYT is always right? if you answer is "because its TYT!" then you need to step back and give the answer some thought.

TYT is not anti-corporate, you are an idiot.

not necessarily, but they do have an agenda and lead people on with selective coverage of the world's events.

Yet you cannot be both right, either you or TYT is wrong. Guess who it is.

I'd wager on Camarohusky, myself. Blind faith in anything only leads to misguidance.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-12 16:19:49 Reply

At 12/11/11 07:24 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: What the hell are you even talking about?

Let's just boil this down. Liste n to TYT, FOX News, CNN, and CBS. Take down the facts they use. Chances are the facts they use in common will be the same. I can gurantee you that 90%+ of the facts they use will be the same. However, based on that remaining 10%, the context, the order, and the manner in which they all resent it, you'll get 4 stories, some more different than the others. I mean the mere eixtsence of Sean Hannity yelling angrily a set if facts and Brian Schieffer droning on about the same facts in the same exact sentences as Hannity, and you'll get a different story.

Facts are maleable. You can't change the fact of the fact, but you can minimize, couch, hide, exaggerate, highlight, ignore, or blow that fact out of proportion. Hell, you can even add lies to a fact to make it seem 100% different than it truly is. Or you can cop off a seemingly mnor part of that fact (like a quote) to completely change the meaning of that fact. All I am saying is that you have got to think beyond the mere facts and words thrown at you and dig down to the why. Ask yourself, "When TYT, or FOX, or NGBBSers say facts and storys, why are they telling this story?" The more biased and selective a source is the more likely the why is more important than the what.

Now, I know how you're looknig at this. You've come across TYT and they seems to say everything you want to say and they say it the way you want to say it. When I was younger I latched on things the same way. Now TYT wasn't around back then, but you can bet your bum that if I knew about TYT when I was 16-19 I would've latched upon them like a vice grip. Now, that might have lasted a few years, but when you have things that fit your bias, yoiu love it until that onbe time when they no longer fit your bias. Once you disagree with them you realize that the entire time this is how they've treated everything, and it will quickly turn really really sour. Trust me.

Not everything you see or hear is exactly what it appears to be.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 05:14:46 Reply

At 12/11/11 11:22 PM, Korriken wrote: I think this sums it up nicely. watch.
A man died at 7:30 this morning. his body has one hole in the center of his chest, where he bled out. A man was later found with a 9mm pistol in his coat and was arrested.

obviously the man is guilty, right?

Obviously not necessairly. However it does not affect my point even in the slightest.

Camaro is right actually. What's a fact? something you believe to be true.

That is the stupidest thing I heard you say. No, a fact is something that IS true, and beliefs do not affect them in any way.

FACT: Americans landed on the moon... or did they? they teach it as a fact in school and want you to believe it without question. but did we REALLY land on the moon?

*sigh* yes we did. I

to some the "fact" is that it staged and we didn't really go to the moon.

That's what they believe to be a fact, but guess what, they're fucking wrong.

To some its a "fact" that JFK was killed by the mafia, to some the "fact" is that JFK was killed by the CIA.

See my previous point. I want to also add that not knowing which is fact or not about an issue does not make ALL the facts any more valid, one of these premises is true, everything else isnt.

Everything in life is all about perception rather than reality.

Okay, THIS is the stupidest thing I heard anyone say.

Let's take this fact: Normal grass, as seen by a healthy human eye will come out as green colored.

Let's say I use a bunch of mind tricks to make you strongly believe without a doubt it's purple, guess what, it's still going to be fucking green.

Belief or perception have NO effect on evidence and facts. You suggesting otherwise really make me question the purpose of arguing with you since you do not seem to care about what is true or not.

to a 5 year old $10 is a LOT of money. to a millionaire $10 is less than pocket change.

That might be true, however it does not affect the evidence that a 10$ bill is worth 10$.

Hell I can't even watch the news without the old woman im renting a room from going on a rant about how "bush destroyed the economy and the republicans are keeping the economy down in order to make obama look bad." is it fact? to her it is, to me it isn't.

Again, facts are facts, they are universal, some people might believe in erroneous things, but that makes them fucking wrong. Also don't get me started with the Bush tax cuts.

and how do you know which is fact and which is crap? if you believe everything someone tells you, then you're the fool. how do you know TYT is always right? if you answer is "because its TYT!" then you need to step back and give the answer some thought.

If you really believe anyone reasons like this it really shows with how much contempt you view other human beings.

TYT is not anti-corporate, you are an idiot.
not necessarily, but they do have an agenda and lead people on with selective coverage of the world's events.

TYT just released a video where they defend bachmann on an issue.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 05:31:06 Reply

At 12/12/11 04:19 PM, Camarohusky wrote: first part

See, but if you change a fact it's not one anymore. If you lie about it it becomes (conveniently enough) a fucking lie. I know how differently you can treat an information to make it look different or to change public perception. I am studying in communications. It does NOT change the base facts of what happenned. Fox news' bias is outright lying and bullshit, other news media not so much. And sure they might ommit some stuff for various reasons but that's your job to check the information.

I was defending merely defending comparing tyt to fox news here, as I have not seen them lie about an issue in the way fox did and at least TYT have the honesty to show they have an opinion unlike the "straight" fox news anchors and the "no spin zone".

Now, I know how you're looknig at this. You've come across TYT and they seems to say everything you want to say and they say it the way you want to say it. When I was younger I latched on things the same way. Now TYT wasn't around back then, but you can bet your bum that if I knew about TYT when I was 16-19 I would've latched upon them like a vice grip. Now, that might have lasted a few years, but when you have things that fit your bias, yoiu love it until that onbe time when they no longer fit your bias. Once you disagree with them you realize that the entire time this is how they've treated everything, and it will quickly turn really really sour. Trust me.

You think you got me figured out but you are wrong, and you are arguing against a straw man you made up for yourself. It might come up as a surprise to you but other people can also think critically.

Not everything you see or hear is exactly what it appears to be.

I know that thank you very much, now you can stop with the smug act.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 06:49:49 Reply

At 12/13/11 05:14 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:
That is the stupidest thing I heard you say. No, a fact is something that IS true, and beliefs do not affect them in any way.

sure it does.

*sigh* yes we did. I
to some the "fact" is that it staged and we didn't really go to the moon.
That's what they believe to be a fact, but guess what, they're fucking wrong.

can you prove it? that's the very point. what is "fact" is meaningless. many things that are "facts" are utter bullshit. Most people believe Abner Doubleday invented baseball.

Okay, THIS is the stupidest thing I heard anyone say.

nah, it's just that you're not smart enough to understand what I just said.


Let's take this fact: Normal grass, as seen by a healthy human eye will come out as green colored.

If you consider color blindness to be unhealthy, then yes. However, that is perception, not reality. you perceive the grass to be green. however, what color do you think Jumping Spiders see grass as? they have tetrachromatic vision. they can see the 3 primary colors we can, plus they can see ultraviolet light. which means what we would need a special device to see, they can see in plain daylight. they can perceive things we just can't see with our bare eyes.

Belief or perception have NO effect on evidence and facts. You suggesting otherwise really make me question the purpose of arguing with you since you do not seem to care about what is true or not.

again, that is your perception.

Again, facts are facts, they are universal, some people might believe in erroneous things, but that makes them fucking wrong. Also don't get me started with the Bush tax cuts.

apparently, you're not very old because you haven't learned a very important lesson in life. there's only 1 thing in life that is universal. death.

If you really believe anyone reasons like this it really shows with how much contempt you view other human beings.

blind faith is more prevalent than you think.

TYT just released a video where they defend bachmann on an issue.

he's not defending Bachmann. He's making a point that the mother shouldn't be pushing the child to say what he said. The child's doesn't understand what he's saying. He even agreed with the child's statement, just not the tactic his mother used.

At 12/13/11 05:31 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:
At 12/12/11 04:19 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
You think you got me figured out but you are wrong, and you are arguing against a straw man you made up for yourself. It might come up as a surprise to you but other people can also think critically.

except, you're not thinking critically. Given you didn't even know what bias was until Camaro explained it to you.


Not everything you see or hear is exactly what it appears to be.
I know that thank you very much, now you can stop with the smug act.

knowing it exists and being able to tell when things aren't what they appear to be are 2 different things.

You walk into a barn and find a man standing behind a cow with his pants down. what do you make of the situation?


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 12:21:21 Reply

At 12/13/11 05:31 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: See, but if you change a fact it's not one anymore.

No. It still is. Facts are EXTREMELY narrow. They only gain breadth when grouped together as a story.

If you lie about it it becomes (conveniently enough) a fucking lie.

No it doesn't. If I tell my kid, that the Moon is a circle because it is actually Gouda Cheese, that doesn't change the fact that the Moon is a circle. The story becomes a lie, but the fact stays the same, changed merely by the company it is with.

I know how differently you can treat an information to make it look different or to change public perception. I am studying in communications. It does NOT change the base facts of what happenned. Fox news' bias is outright lying and bullshit, other news media not so much. And sure they might ommit some stuff for various reasons but that's your job to check the information.

I know FOX plays fast and loose with the facts. No critical thinker can deny that. However, the facts that they do get right, i.e. 90%+ are the same exact facts that TYT uses. When two people use the same facts but get completely divergent stories, you have bias. FYI, the guy who legitimately questioned the word "is" wasn't in communications... There is one occupation that is much better at word play and semantics than communications majors are.

I was defending merely defending comparing tyt to fox news here, as I have not seen them lie about an issue in the way fox did and at least TYT have the honesty to show they have an opinion unlike the "straight" fox news anchors and the "no spin zone".

Now you're getting it. TYT has a bias.

You think you got me figured out but you are wrong, and you are arguing against a straw man you made up for yourself. It might come up as a surprise to you but other people can also think critically.

Then why are you trying to act as if TYT has no bias? If you can think critically, you'd know that they are knee deep in bias. That doesn't mean you have to disagree with them. But, until you realize their bias, they serve no purpose as a source for information.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 14:16:32 Reply

At 12/13/11 06:49 AM, Korriken wrote:
can you prove it? that's the very point. what is "fact" is meaningless. many things that are "facts" are utter bullshit. Most people believe Abner Doubleday invented baseball.

Listen, facts and what most people believe are completely different things, even if everybody on this planet believed in something erroneous it would not be more of a fact. As for the moon landing thing, there is great evidence proving we in fact did but I wil not explain it here as this is not the main goal of the debate here.

nah, it's just that you're not smart enough to understand what I just said.

Believe me I totally understand what you mean, and it's stupid as fuck.

If you consider color blindness to be unhealthy, then yes. However, that is perception, not reality. you perceive the grass to be green. however, what color do you think Jumping Spiders see grass as? they have tetrachromatic vision. they can see the 3 primary colors we can, plus they can see ultraviolet light. which means what we would need a special device to see, they can see in plain daylight. they can perceive things we just can't see with our bare eyes.

Can't you read? I expressly said "human eye" and made the statement as specific as possible so you wouldnt be able to pull off shit like this, and you still did anyways. I know it's perception in that case, hence why I said that with a healthy vision, with normal lighting conditions, HUMANS PERCIEVE grass as green colored. That's a fact. It's a fact about how humans percieve grass in normal conditions. And then I gave the hypotetical situation of me tricking you into believing it was purple, (or it could be anybody else) and the fact you or other people tricked into believing it's purple wouldnt change the greenness of the grass.

But if you prefer I could have given other examples like: Getting stabbed in the eye is not a desirable situation.

again, that is your perception.

Show me one example where belief effect facts. Do it, I ducking double dare ya. Spoiler: You can't. But that wouldn't be your fault as nobody can because beliefs do not affect facts.

apparently, you're not very old because you haven't learned a very important lesson in life. there's only 1 thing in life that is universal. death.

I swear to god the amount of willpower it takes me to not call you an idiot every line of reply I make is superhuman, but you still manage to make me do it.

The fact anything alive will die at some point is a fact. Stop trying to sound deep. I am starting to believe I am getting trolled here. Really.

blind faith is more prevalent than you think.

Is that a fact or is that your perception? HURRRRR
See I can pull off bullshit like this too.

he's not defending Bachmann. He's making a point that the mother shouldn't be pushing the child to say what he said. The child's doesn't understand what he's saying. He even agreed with the child's statement, just not the tactic his mother used.

And he would be right. But you can see he's not just bashing bachmann every change he gets.

except, you're not thinking critically. Given you didn't even know what bias was until Camaro explained it to you.

Exept I did.

You walk into a barn and find a man standing behind a cow with his pants down. what do you make of the situation?

It was very likely he was about to... *get milked*.
YEAAAH!

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 14:42:25 Reply

At 12/13/11 12:21 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
No. It still is. Facts are EXTREMELY narrow. They only gain breadth when grouped together as a story.

Facts mean what they mean, the story around it does not affect the fact itself.
When I mean "facts" I mean "hard evidence". You could invent any story around the fact the sun procuces light, it does not affect the core fact.

No it doesn't. If I tell my kid, that the Moon is a circle because it is actually Gouda Cheese, that doesn't change the fact that the Moon is a circle. The story becomes a lie, but the fact stays the same, changed merely by the company it is with.

The moon is still percieved as a circle yes. But you merely showed you can use facts accompanied with wrong statements to make an erroneous story.

A story comprised only of facts would be true.

I know FOX plays fast and loose with the facts. No critical thinker can deny that. However, the facts that they do get right, i.e. 90%+ are the same exact facts that TYT uses. When two people use the same facts but get completely divergent stories, you have bias.

If you give the same facts to any group of people, and that these people know the meaning of those facts (aka they are not too complicated to understand) and all the groups' goal is to convey these facts as accurately as possible to other groups, the stories should be relatively similar.

I mentionned this simply because fox is nothing but conservative propaganda and that their bias comes from personnal interest. And that this is the reason why you cannot say TYT is on the same level. Or any other reputable news outlet for that matter. I wasn,t necessairly defending TYT here just bashing Fox.

FYI, the guy who legitimately questioned the word "is" wasn't in communications... There is one occupation that is much better at word play and semantics than communications majors are.

Communications deals with how people convey information (put very simply), which is what we are talking about I believe.

Now you're getting it. TYT has a bias.

If you take this definition: a. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

I would say it's questionnable because I believe the anchors from TYT to be as impartial as possible.

But if you mean bias in the sense of previous experiences affecting your opinion, then everybody has bias, you and me included. And it would be silly to deny it.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 15:58:44 Reply

At 12/13/11 02:16 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
Listen, facts and what most people believe are completely different things, even if everybody on this planet believed in something erroneous it would not be more of a fact.

if everyone believed it, it would be considered fact. at one point it was a fact that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth and that if you sailed too far in any direction you would fall off the face of the earth, literally.


Believe me I totally understand what you mean, and it's stupid as fuck.

you have no idea.

Can't you read? I expressly said "human eye" and made the statement as specific as possible so you wouldnt be able to pull off shit like this, and you still did anyways. I know it's perception in that case, hence why I said that with a healthy vision, with normal lighting conditions, HUMANS PERCIEVE grass as green colored.

Grass is green, unless its not green. Wheat is a grain, which is a type of grass and its brown. the sky is blue unless the sun is in the right position,then its a golden or even red color. at night the sky is black (or a seriously dark shade of blue) with white speckles. to say the sky is blue is folly.

That's a fact.

that's perception. to a person with color blindness, which a friend of mine has, regular yard grass and red apples are the same color.

It's a fact about how humans percieve grass in normal conditions. And then I gave the hypotetical situation of me tricking you into believing it was purple, (or it could be anybody else) and the fact you or other people tricked into believing it's purple wouldnt change the greenness of the grass.

your point being? "under normal lighting conditions?" I'll put it like this. grass is green because you see it as green. in a pitch black darkness, grass is invisible... you simply cannot see it.


But if you prefer I could have given other examples like: Getting stabbed in the eye is not a desirable situation.

that's an opinion.

Show me one example where belief effect facts. Do it, I ducking double dare ya. Spoiler: You can't. But that wouldn't be your fault as nobody can because beliefs do not affect facts.

Sure I can. Watermelons are red on the inside, yes? answer truthfully now.

I swear to god the amount of willpower it takes me to not call you an idiot every line of reply I make is superhuman, but you still manage to make me do it.

That's because you fail to grasp the concept. I'll put it like this. take an object. any object (well something, say, a large tree near your home) make a description of the object on a piece of paper. hand someone else a piece of paper and have the describe the same object. compare papers. you won't get the same notes. some things may be in common, but the papers will have differences. it's an example of how your perception affects your view of reality.


The fact anything alive will die at some point is a fact. Stop trying to sound deep. I am starting to believe I am getting trolled here. Really.

and that is the only constant to the universe. if it lives, it WILL die. Planet Earth is not a constant. it will someday be no more. you are not a constant. you will die. Everything else is temporary. I'm not trying to sound deep. I'm just making my point.


blind faith is more prevalent than you think.
Is that a fact or is that your perception? HURRRRR
See I can pull off bullshit like this too.

I suppose that would be a question of your perception rather than mine, given that you don't seem to think blind faith exists within you as you lap up Cenk's every word without questioning his motive for saying what he says.

And he would be right. But you can see he's not just bashing bachmann every change he gets.

he would be right? do we have some sort of empirical data to suggest being gay is in fact, normal and doesn't need fixing? If not, then you just made my point for me. thanks.


except, you're not thinking critically. Given you didn't even know what bias was until Camaro explained it to you.
Exept I did.

you didn't.


You walk into a barn and find a man standing behind a cow with his pants down. what do you make of the situation?
It was very likely he was about to... *get milked*.
YEAAAH!

nah he was just taking a piss on the dirt floor. it was mere coincidence he was behind the cow. he was facing the corner of the barn. you drew a wrong conclusion from the single fact i gave you.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 22:30:56 Reply

At 12/13/11 03:58 PM, Korriken wrote: if everyone believed it, it would be considered fact. at one point it was a fact that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth and that if you sailed too far in any direction you would fall off the face of the earth, literally.

yes it would be "considered" a fact, considered is the jey word here. These people were wrond and it was never a fact the earth was flat as it always was a sphere, truth is these people didn't know any better.

you have no idea.

You are arguing that facts are determined by people's beliefs and concensus. Which is not the definition of a fact.

In fact what you are saying is so ridiculous I am seriously wondering if I am getting trolled.

Grass is green, unless its not green. Wheat is a grain, which is a type of grass and its brown. the sky is blue unless the sun is in the right position,then its a golden or even red color. at night the sky is black (or a seriously dark shade of blue) with white speckles. to say the sky is blue is folly.

That's a fact.
that's perception. to a person with color blindness, which a friend of mine has, regular yard grass and red apples are the same color.

Again, I said "healthy" human eye. And I was obviously speaking of common grass. You are trying way too hard (or again, maybe I am just getting trolled).

your point being? "under normal lighting conditions?" I'll put it like this. grass is green because you see it as green. in a pitch black darkness, grass is invisible... you simply cannot see it.

You know what, fuck this, if you do not have the brain power to understand my point by now I am wasting my time.

But if you prefer I could have given other examples like: Getting stabbed in the eye is not a desirable situation.
that's an opinion.

Okay now I am sure, I am getting trolled, you got me real good.

Show me one example where belief effect facts. Do it, I ducking double dare ya. Spoiler: You can't. But that wouldn't be your fault as nobody can because beliefs do not affect facts.
Sure I can. Watermelons are red on the inside, yes? answer truthfully now.

They are a pinkish hue of red. And now you will say I percieve them as that, I know the color of things is mere reflected light on my pupil. but my belief on the color of watermelon does not change the color of watermelon.

That's because you fail to grasp the concept.

Once again, I do, your point is just very wrong and very fucking stupid.

I'll put it like this. take an object. any object (well something, say, a large tree near your home) make a description of the object on a piece of paper. hand someone else a piece of paper and have the describe the same object. compare papers. you won't get the same notes. some things may be in common, but the papers will have differences. it's an example of how your perception affects your view of reality.

Yet what we write doen on the pieces of paper does not affect how the tree looks in any way, see my point? I know people have different perceptions and views, but facts are not affected by them.

and that is the only constant to the universe. if it lives, it WILL die. Planet Earth is not a constant. it will someday be no more. you are not a constant. you will die. Everything else is temporary. I'm not trying to sound deep. I'm just making my point.

The fact everyone dies does not support your point in any way.

I suppose that would be a question of your perception rather than mine, given that you don't seem to think blind faith exists within you as you lap up Cenk's every word without questioning his motive for saying what he says.

Go fuck yourself.
.

he would be right? do we have some sort of empirical data to suggest being gay is in fact, normal and doesn't need fixing? If not, then you just made my point for me. thanks.

Show me empirical data proving being gay NEEDS fixing. because there is no obvious harm done if you are a gay individual living a healthy consensual relationship with another gay person.

nah he was just taking a piss on the dirt floor. it was mere coincidence he was behind the cow. he was facing the corner of the barn. you drew a wrong conclusion from the single fact i gave you.

See, I knew you were going to say that, hence why I just replied with a joke, obviously people can sometimes draw wrong conclusions from things that are seen. Even more so when it's a situation described to you partly by some idiot on a forum doing so in a desperate attempt to give some validity to his ridiculous claims.

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Response to Occupy wall street media black out 2011-12-13 23:12:28 Reply

I recomend that the people in this topic come take a look at this.

I'll post the important part here, its a letter to the guys other cartoonist friend who seems to be a tea party supporter as opposed to the man who sent it, a reluctant OWS supporter. excusing the imo less than funny cartoon.

"I know you and I are located at roughly orange and indigo on the political spectrum but I can't help but feel the Tea Party really ought to be down there demonstrating alongside all the insufferable nosering-wearing anarchists [of Occupy Wall Street]. The Tea Party formed when enough conservatives felt the Republican Party had betrayed or abandoned them; this demonstration seems like proof that a critical mass of progressives now feels the same way about the Obama administration. The one consensus in this country is that things are fucked up. We both agree that absolutely no one in the government cares what we think about anything. It seems to me that the main difference between Left and Right anymore is that you guys blame The Government for everything while we blame Corporate America. It's past time we all noticed that there's no difference between these two anymore; they're all exactly the same people. They're all former classmates and golf partners. In other words the great ideological divide between us increasingly looks like a false dichotomy, and about the only thing keeping us from forming that formidable coalitionthat political philosopher Charles Daniels called "the cowboys and the hippies, the rebels and the yanks," is our mutual distaste. But look: I despise those feckless hippies and their goddamn drum circles, and I'm still going down there every day, because I feel like I can't not be there. Even if you're not going, let me know what you think about all this. We may be the only two people on our respective sides who are in any contact with each other and as such we are like diplomats from two great powers at war. We should keep the lines of communication open."

basically he says OWS happened because the Democrats betrayed the people who supported them, while Tea party started because the Republicans betrayed the people who supported them. Both sides are equally concerned that this country is moving toward despotism in one way or another yet both sides hate each other on made up comedic ideological differences and wardrobes, both of which are nothing more than strawmen who lack the intelligence to organise events as impacting as these two, think about that.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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