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At 11/28/11 03:27 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: More proof that occupy wallstreet protesters are brainless sacks of shit

Because one person is representative of all.

At 11/27/11 09:10 PM, akmeteor wrote:

At 11/27/11 07:38 PM, MercatorMapV2 wrote:

Anyone that seeks to defend themselves is violent.

That's pretty much what you just said.

Basically, your opinion is stupid.

So your saying that a group that has anti-rape tents isn't violent and are just defending themselves?

That's like saying that America wasn't being an asshole with the internment camp thing in WWII.

There is a difference between passively defending one's self in a manner that does not attack the attacker, and actively "defending" one's self by imprisoning an entire race.

Putting locks on my locker does not make me violent.

At 11/28/11 01:04 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

Wow... you will feel right at home in your cozy little police state.

And to all those other people saying they somehow deserved it.

It's a bunch of people peacefully protesting, they are using their first fucking ammendment WITHOUT BREAKING ANY LAWS! And you fucking dare say they had it coming.

I'm pretty sure its not legal to refuse to obey a police officer when you've formed a humam barricade and they order you to move.

I honestly ask you, what the fuck is wrong with you? I always try to analyze and comprehend the other person,s point of view, but here I admit I am beaten, I cannot even comprehend how you could side with the cops on that issue. Honestly this makes me sick.

appeal to emotion has no place in debate. come up with something substantial and try again.

At 11/28/11 05:11 AM, MercatorMapV2 wrote:

At 11/28/11 03:27 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: More proof that occupy wallstreet protesters are brainless sacks of shit

Because one person is representative of all.

You were military correct? Then did your TI ever tell you that you represent your battalion/flight/ship in boot camp?

At 11/28/11 08:34 AM, Korriken wrote:

I'm pretty sure its not legal to refuse to obey a police officer when you've formed a humam barricade and they order you to move.

Is it illegal to not jump off a bridge if a police officer asks you to do it? Sorry to use a cliché example but it was just this easy to demolish your argument. See, police officers aren't always right, and even if they were here (they weren't) the pepper spray was exessive.

appeal to emotion has no place in debate. come up with something substantial and try again.

I am sorry I was not trying to appeal to emotion here even toug I admit it might have looked like it, I was just venting some of my outrage. I tought it was better than just typing "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-"

At 11/28/11 11:13 AM, akmeteor wrote:

You were military correct? Then did your TI ever tell you that you represent your battalion/flight/ship in boot camp?

What that means is that if one persons act in a bad way and this person is associated with an organization, the bad action will be associated the whole organization, even if the organization shuns the actions of the one person.

What he means is that OWS does not agree with what this guy said, and you fell into the trap of associating him with the whole movement because he claims to be part of it.

See, sometimes you give smart advice, but you should start following your own advice.

At 11/28/11 12:42 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

Is it illegal to not jump off a bridge if a police officer asks you to do it? Sorry to use a cliché example but it was just this easy to demolish your argument. See, police officers aren't always right, and even if they were here (they weren't) the pepper spray was exessive.

There's a difference between getting told to kill yourself, and breaking a human barricade.

At 11/28/11 12:46 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

What that means is that if one persons act in a bad way and this person is associated with an organization, the bad action will be associated the whole organization, even if the organization shuns the actions of the one person.

What he means is that OWS does not agree with what this guy said, and you fell into the trap of associating him with the whole movement because he claims to be part of it.

See, sometimes you give smart advice, but you should start following your own advice.

So what your saying is that even though he's a part of that group, his actions only stand for him? No, the reason he joined is because of like-minded individuals. Probably his friends who also have those racist tendencies. So I'm going with that there are at least 100-200 more people like this on the Wall Street one alone.

In basic, if I screw-up, my flight screws up.

In the real world, if you screw up, your assembly line screws up.

In OWS, one person screws up, LOL WHAT HAPPENED? IGNORE HIM!

At 11/28/11 11:13 AM, akmeteor wrote:

At 11/28/11 05:11 AM, MercatorMapV2 wrote:

At 11/28/11 03:27 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: More proof that occupy wallstreet protesters are brainless sacks of shit

Because one person is representative of all.

You were military correct? Then did your TI ever tell you that you represent your battalion/flight/ship in boot camp?

Yeah. They told me that. Why? Because I was part of a cohesive and highly organized rank and file unit.

Not part of a protesting mob where people are free to come and go as they please and have no real obligations to perform any such duty for the protest.

You can't compare the military to a protest bud. It doesn't work that way. Next thing I know, people are going to start saying that they have it rough like soldiers because they are sleeping in tents in 30 something degree weather.

At 11/28/11 08:34 AM, Korriken wrote:
I'm pretty sure its not legal to refuse to obey a police officer when you've formed a humam barricade and they order you to move.

if the police ordered you to jump off a bridge...

At 11/28/11 08:30 PM, Iron-Hampster wrote: if the police ordered you to jump off a bridge...

There's a big difference between an officer giving a lawful order and an officer telling you to jump off of a bridge...

At 11/28/11 08:47 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/28/11 08:30 PM, Iron-Hampster wrote: if the police ordered you to jump off a bridge...

There's a big difference between an officer giving a lawful order and an officer telling you to jump off of a bridge...

what if the bridge is on fire?

At 11/28/11 12:42 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

Is it illegal to not jump off a bridge if a police officer asks you to do it? Sorry to use a cliché example but it was just this easy to demolish your argument. See, police officers aren't always right, and even if they were here (they weren't) the pepper spray was exessive.

Obviously the police officer can't command you to do something stupid like that. Also, you failed miserably in "demolishing" my argument. if you're doing something illegal (like the protestors were) and the cop orders you to move, and you refuse, its illegal! Also, it might seem excessive, but cops are trained not to take chances. that many people against the few cops there, the cops could have easily been overwhelmed if the protestors decided to fight back. The pepper spray was used to make sure they couldn't fight back. had they brought out shotguns and began blasting people in the face with beanbag shot, I would agree, but pepper spray, though painful, is fairly harmless.

I am sorry I was not trying to appeal to emotion here even toug I admit it might have looked like it, I was just venting some of my outrage. I tought it was better than just typing "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-"

I'm not convinced.

At 11/28/11 07:17 PM, MercatorMapV2 wrote: Yeah. They told me that. Why? Because I was part of a cohesive and highly organized rank and file unit.

Not part of a protesting mob where people are free to come and go as they please and have no real obligations to perform any such duty for the protest.

You can't compare the military to a protest bud. It doesn't work that way. Next thing I know, people are going to start saying that they have it rough like soldiers because they are sleeping in tents in 30 something degree weather.

If you're part of any group you'll be told that your actions represent the group and that you should be on your best behavior anytime your actions are visible to the public. It's told to children in school when they go on field trips or to school sporting events, and yet you think that the people of the Occupy movement should get a pass when members of their group act in violent ways that reflect poorly on the movement as a whole? The problem itself is even worse considering that there are examples of Occupy groups refusing to allow police and medical personnel into their illegal camps after someone has been raped because they don't want the police to force them to disperse from the inside.

At 11/28/11 12:42 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

At 11/28/11 08:34 AM, Korriken wrote:

I'm pretty sure its not legal to refuse to obey a police officer when you've formed a humam barricade and they order you to move.

Is it illegal to not jump off a bridge if a police officer asks you to do it?

I don't think any rational police officer would tell anyone to jump off a bridge, plus it's a lawful order to leave the area, and the protestors refused to do so, which means beanbags, pepper spray and other non-lethal weaponry was used to get the crowd to disperse, which is completely within the rules.

Sorry to use a cliché example but it was just this easy to demolish your argument. See, police officers aren't always right, and even if they were here (they weren't) the pepper spray was exessive.

That may be, but when people are in clear violation of the law, the police have every right to use every tool he/she has available to remove said person. Therefore, the pepper spray is not excessive force if the person is either disobeying or becomes beligerant, and it looks like it was the case. Once again, your argument is rather shallow and paper-thin.

appeal to emotion has no place in debate. come up with something substantial and try again.

I am sorry I was not trying to appeal to emotion here even toug I admit it might have looked like it, I was just venting some of my outrage. I tought it was better than just typing "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-"

Getting angry like this will add nothing to your point, and getting outraged over something like this is not a recommended course of action, especially since the actions by the police officers are in bounds, even though it may look like it was excessive force by the cops, on a technical level, it is clearly not.

At 11/28/11 10:40 PM, djack wrote:

If you're part of any group you'll be told that your actions represent the group and that you should be on your best behavior anytime your actions are visible to the public. It's told to children in school when they go on field trips or to school sporting events, and yet you think that the people of the Occupy movement should get a pass when members of their group act in violent ways that reflect poorly on the movement as a whole? The problem itself is even worse considering that there are examples of Occupy groups refusing to allow police and medical personnel into their illegal camps after someone has been raped because they don't want the police to force them to disperse from the inside.

Any group that refuses medical personnel and law enforcement into their false property does not deserve to exist. Also, my argument/comparison is perfectly acceptable the way I used it.

At 11/28/11 01:15 PM, akmeteor wrote:

At 11/28/11 12:42 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

Is it illegal to not jump off a bridge if a police officer asks you to do it? Sorry to use a cliché example but it was just this easy to demolish your argument. See, police officers aren't always right, and even if they were here (they weren't) the pepper spray was exessive.

There's a difference between getting told to kill yourself, and breaking a human barricade.

And there's a difference between breaking the law and exercising your rights.

At 11/28/11 01:19 PM, akmeteor wrote:

At 11/28/11 12:46 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

So what your saying is that even though he's a part of that group, his actions only stand for him? No, the reason he joined is because of like-minded individuals. Probably his friends who also have those racist tendencies. So I'm going with that there are at least 100-200 more people like this on the Wall Street one alone.

So you admit you have no good reason to believe in such a ridiculous claim. Good.

In basic, if I screw-up, my flight screws up.

In the real world, if you screw up, your assembly line screws up.

In OWS, one person screws up, LOL WHAT HAPPENED? IGNORE HIM!

>a member of a group murders someone

>THEY'RE ALL MURDERERS!

At 11/28/11 10:36 PM, Korriken wrote:

Obviously the police officer can't command you to do something stupid like that. Also, you failed miserably in "demolishing" my argument. if you're doing something illegal (like the protestors were) and the cop orders you to move, and you refuse, its illegal!

So not killing yourself to jump off a bridge is illegal if a cop orders you to?

See you contradict yourself. THing is those students were doing NOTHING WRONG, only exercising their first ammendment. And no not obeying a cop does not make anything illegal. Know your rights. In some circumstances it is, but not in the situation we are talking about.

Also, it might seem excessive, but cops are trained not to take chances. that many people against the few cops there, the cops could have easily been overwhelmed if the protestors decided to fight back.

And they didn't trough all this shit they didnt, they didnt even give a fucking sign they were violent in any way, they got beaten up and took a hit like fucking champions. And they didnt fight back.

Yet you claim the cops were right to assault them with no good reason.

The pepper spray was used to make sure they couldn't fight back. had they brought out shotguns and began blasting people in the face with beanbag shot, I would agree, but pepper spray, though painful, is fairly harmless.

Someone never got pepper sprayed. Also no it's not 100 risk free. But that's beside the point, you shouldn't assault protesters because: LOL! (ie: for no reason whatsoever)

I am sorry I was not trying to appeal to emotion here even toug I admit it might have looked like it, I was just venting some of my outrage. I tought it was better than just typing "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-"

I'm not convinced.

Oh I really don't give a damn if you believe me about THAT specific thing.

At 11/29/11 12:01 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

And there's a difference between breaking the law and exercising your rights.

I have no idea where you learned anything about the Constitution, but your 1st amendment only holds true when you aren't obstructing law or other people. Also known as
breaking the law.. Get the fuck over this "ITS MY RIGHTS" shit. Guess what. It was at the start, but not anymore

So what your saying is that even though he's a part of that group, his actions only stand for him? No, the reason he joined is because of like-minded individuals. Probably his friends who also have those racist tendencies. So I'm going with that there are at least 100-200 more people like this on the Wall Street one alone.

So you admit you have no good reason to believe in such a ridiculous claim. Good.

Where did I admit that? Based on actual logic I should assume they're all racists. It's how the human mind fucking works god dammit.

In basic, if I screw-up, my flight screws up.

In the real world, if you screw up, your assembly line screws up.

In OWS, one person screws up, LOL WHAT HAPPENED? IGNORE HIM!

>a member of a group murders someone

>THEY'RE ALL MURDERERS!

In my eyes at least a small minority of them are. If they directly associated with him at least.

At 11/29/11 12:10 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

More stuff about 1st amendment and pepper pray being dangerous.

Look again at what I said about the first amendment.

Now look at how people would say tear gas was a better idea. Pepper spray hurts your nose a little bit and stings your eyes. Tear gas hurts your whole fucking body.

At 11/29/11 12:00 AM, akmeteor wrote:

At 11/28/11 10:40 PM, djack wrote: If you're part of any group you'll be told that your actions represent the group and that you should be on your best behavior anytime your actions are visible to the public. It's told to children in school when they go on field trips or to school sporting events, and yet you think that the people of the Occupy movement should get a pass when members of their group act in violent ways that reflect poorly on the movement as a whole? The problem itself is even worse considering that there are examples of Occupy groups refusing to allow police and medical personnel into their illegal camps after someone has been raped because they don't want the police to force them to disperse from the inside.

Any group that refuses medical personnel and law enforcement into their false property does not deserve to exist. Also, my argument/comparison is perfectly acceptable the way I used it.

I'm not disagreeing with you, on either point (especially not the former as it only goes to prove to me that those involved with Occupy are aware of the crimes they're committing and deserves the level of force police have been using to remove them). I was simply pointing out that Mercator's claim that you can't compare the Occupy movement to an organized military force is ridiculous because even children are told to behave appropriately in public because their actions are representative of the entire group even if the entire group is not behaving similarly.

At 11/29/11 12:14 AM, djack wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you, on either point (especially not the former as it only goes to prove to me that those involved with Occupy are aware of the crimes they're committing and deserves the level of force police have been using to remove them). I was simply pointing out that Mercator's claim that you can't compare the Occupy movement to an organized military force is ridiculous because even children are told to behave appropriately in public because their actions are representative of the entire group even if the entire group is not behaving similarly.

I'm extremely sorry if it seemed I were disagreeing with you or being hostile. I was actually agreeing with you. I just didn't quote Mercator because of the quote limit.

At 11/28/11 11:58 PM, orangebomb wrote:

I don't think any rational police officer would tell anyone to jump off a bridge,

Of course not, my goal here was simply to demonstrate obeying what a police officer says is not always the right thing or "illegal" using a very extreme example.

plus it's a lawful order to leave the area, and the protestors refused to do so, which means beanbags, pepper spray and other non-lethal weaponry was used to get the crowd to disperse, which is completely within the rules.
That may be, but when people are in clear violation of the law, the police have every right to use every tool he/she has available to remove said person. Therefore, the pepper spray is not excessive force if the person is either disobeying or becomes beligerant, and it looks like it was the case. Once again, your argument is rather shallow and paper-thin.

I would be surious to know which law exactly these students were breaking. Also it's not like they sprayed them a little and told them to leave, they fucking doused them in that thing. That was CLEARLY exessive. And even there, pepper-spraying seated nonviolent protesters is exessive. I also take offense on you calling my argument "paper thin" when you replied with one that was as thick as air. Oh but it was written in a top notch manner I give you that.

Getting angry like this will add nothing to your point, and getting outraged over something like this is not a recommended course of action, especially since the actions by the police officers are in bounds, even though it may look like it was excessive force by the cops, on a technical level, it is clearly not.

No it ads nothing to my point, I already stated I knew that very fact, I am sorry if I am getting flabbergasted because some people say ridiculous and laughable stuff on the internet and take it seriously.

At 11/29/11 12:11 AM, akmeteor wrote:

I have no idea where you learned anything about the Constitution, but your 1st amendment only holds true when you aren't obstructing law or other people. Also known as
breaking the law.. Get the fuck over this "ITS MY RIGHTS" shit. Guess what. It was at the start, but not anymore

Please tell me what law they were breaking.

Where did I admit that? Based on actual logic I should assume they're all racists. It's how the human mind fucking works god dammit.

The part where you said you believed what you said not because of facts but because of shit you took out your ass, THAT part, the whole part.

>a member of a group murders someone

>THEY'RE ALL MURDERERS!

In my eyes at least a small minority of them are. If they directly associated with him at least.

I don't even need to reply to that, you sunk yourself deep enough already as it is.

At 11/29/11 12:30 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

Please tell me what law they were breaking.

It's illegal almost everywhere to block a walking path. Especially if someone asks you to move and you are in a public place.

The part where you said you believed what you said not because of facts but because of shit you took out your ass, THAT part, the whole part.

The part where I basically said that's how my mind works? Yeah, completely debunk my whole argument like that in a debate team. No one would mark against me for a belief like that. It's hardwired into your nature. i bet you did the same thing when someone at the Tea Party rallies said something redneckish. Don't fuck with me on that.

>a member of a group murders someone

>THEY'RE ALL MURDERERS!

In my eyes at least a small minority of them are. If they directly associated with him at least.

I don't even need to reply to that, you sunk yourself deep enough already as it is.

Where did I sink myself? The only person who I see sinking is someone who tried to use an emotional appeal in an intellectual debate.

At 11/29/11 12:26 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: Of course not, my goal here was simply to demonstrate obeying what a police officer says is not always the right thing or "illegal" using a very extreme example.

In the military disobeying an officer can get you a court martial and imprisoned but that doesn't mean that officer's are correct 100% of the time or that there isn't extenuating circumstances that would allow you to disobey an order. You're using a straw man argument that's easily disproven using similar situations.

I would be curious to know which law exactly these students were breaking. Also it's not like they sprayed them a little and told them to leave, they fucking doused them in that thing. That was CLEARLY excessive. And even there, pepper-spraying seated nonviolent protesters is excessive. I also take offense on you calling my argument "paper thin" when you replied with one that was as thick as air. Oh but it was written in a top notch manner I give you that.

How about illegally occupying private property even after being told to leave (aka trespassing) or, as it was pointed out, disobeying a lawful order from the police? Both are illegal and the students were guilty of both. Unless you can point out where in police protocol it says that their use of pepper spray was excessive you don't have any real support for your claim that it was.

No it adds nothing to my point, I already stated I knew that very fact, I am sorry if I am getting flabbergasted because some people say ridiculous and laughable stuff on the internet and take it seriously.

Very little stated in this thread is laughable and ridiculous but that final statement of yours truly was. With modern society being the way it is I'm not surprised that people thought the police were excessive but to claim it was excessive without anything to back up that statement and then call others claims that it wasn't laughable is just plain idiotic. You're only argument throughout this entire thread has been the claim that their first amendment rights covers the illegal occupations of public and private property, which simply isn't true and any judge/lawyer/paralegal/police officer can tell you that, and claims that pepper spray is dangerous even though there's a reason that it was developed and commercially used as a non-lethal method of stopping and incapacitating potentially dangerous criminals (don't just spout "they were not being violent" either as any crowd can quickly develop a mob mentality under relatively normal conditions).

Holy shit djack. You just said everything I've been trying to say in one very large and superior in intellect post!

At 11/29/11 12:52 AM, djack wrote:

How about illegally occupying private property even after being told to leave (aka trespassing)

Last time I checked UC Davis is a public university.

or, as it was pointed out, disobeying a lawful order from the police? Both are illegal and the students were guilty of both. Unless you can point out where in police protocol it says that their use of pepper spray was excessive you don't have any real support for your claim that it was.

If there was a police protocol saying that shooting people if you are a cop is totally fine, would you say it's okay? Absolutely not. I am saying the same thing here.

Very little stated in this thread is laughable and ridiculous but that final statement of yours truly was. With modern society being the way it is I'm not surprised that people thought the police were excessive but to claim it was excessive without anything to back up that statement and then call others claims that it wasn't laughable is just plain idiotic.

I already stated reasons, because I don't repeat them over and over because people ignore my arguments doesn't mean I have none.

You're only argument throughout this entire thread has been the claim that their first amendment rights covers the illegal occupations of public and private property, which simply isn't true and any judge/lawyer/paralegal/police officer can tell you that, and claims that pepper spray is dangerous even though there's a reason that it was developed and commercially used as a non-lethal method of stopping and incapacitating potentially dangerous criminals (don't just spout "they were not being violent" either as any crowd can quickly develop a mob mentality under relatively normal conditions).

So basically you are condemning this crowd of "tought crime". Correct me if I am wrong but you said that since a crowd CAN turn violent it was okay to pepper-spray them.

My argument is simple, these students were doing nothing wrong, they were peacefully protesting in a public place, their university, and they recieved a fuckton of pepper spray in the face as a response, how can you not see how fucked up this situation is?

At 11/29/11 12:14 AM, djack wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, on either point (especially not the former as it only goes to prove to me that those involved with Occupy are aware of the crimes they're committing and deserves the level of force police have been using to remove them). I was simply pointing out that Mercator's claim that you can't compare the Occupy movement to an organized military force is ridiculous because even children are told to behave appropriately in public because their actions are representative of the entire group even if the entire group is not behaving similarly.

This logic is terrible. It basically equates to generalizing. Using this logic it is ok to jail all black people because several of them smoke and deal crack.

Your claim is terrible. Not mine. Again. You can't compare the military to a protest. No matter how hard you guys want to think that you can. Try serving, and then coming back into this discussion.

At 11/29/11 12:10 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

So not killing yourself to jump off a bridge is illegal if a cop orders you to?

no dumbass, its not. you stupid little "jump off the bridge argument" holds no water.

See you contradict yourself. THing is those students were doing NOTHING WRONG, only exercising their first ammendment. And no not obeying a cop does not make anything illegal. Know your rights. In some circumstances it is, but not in the situation we are talking about.

you miss the concept of "you can't break the law, even if you are a hypocritical hippie" blocking off a street, sidewalk, etc is get this, ILLEGAL! as in AGAINST THE LAW! a cop ordering you to move is legal and refusing to obey is illegal. They're lucky the cops didn't just move in, swarm the hippies, load them all into a paddy wagon, and toss them all in jail.

next stupid argument? gonna ask me if a cop can order you to leap from a plane with no parachute next?

And they didn't trough all this shit they didnt, they didnt even give a fucking sign they were violent in any way, they got beaten up and took a hit like fucking champions. And they didnt fight back.

They found guns in Zucotti Park when they forced the camp to break up. OWS totally non violent? as much as the left would like to say "damn right, totally non violent! these pigs just can't stand to be questioned!" it's just not true.

Yet you claim the cops were right to assault them with no good reason.

disobey a lawful order and your ass is grass. they could have saved themselves a lot of pain and suffering by just getting up and clearing the sidewalk. but no, they think they have the right to break the law and then disobey the cops when ordered to move, when then when the cops went to begin making to grab the law breakers off the ground to arrest them, the protestors began resisting arrest.

they got what was coming to them. Protest is fine, but breaking the law in the process doesn't help you at all.

Funny that you never saw the tea party (who was villified by the media) being dragged off or pepper sprayed by the cops. wanna know why? HERE is WHY! they didn't go around breaking the law!

Someone never got pepper sprayed. Also no it's not 100 risk free. But that's beside the point, you shouldn't assault protesters because: LOL! (ie: for no reason whatsoever)

I used to be a security guard, I've been pepper sprayed, had to get sprayed in order to be able to carry it on the job. it burns like hell for a few hours, then it wears off and you're left with a bad memory, little else. Pepper spray doesn't leave a trail of corpses. I've also been tasered, in case you were wondering.