States LOL

[BUTANE]

I felt like going on a bit of a rant.

It seems like everyone on the right and even people on the left are determined, more than ever, to give power back to the states and take away the responsibility and power of the federal government. Gay marriage? That's a state issue. Health care? Let the states worry about that! Jobs? When has the federal government done anything right? Lets give the states the recourses they need in order to provide jobs for their citizens!

Get over it and admit the states are fucking worthless. Two hundred years ago the states meant something, the House of Representatives was a good idea. People could not communicate instantaneously over the phone or Internet like they can now. The country surely seemed like a larger place, the state itself might have even seemed like a big place.

Now, though, the global economy makes the states insignificant. For a state to try and race to the bottom in order to take jobs away from another is doing no one any good (unless you put state ahead of country). Sure, Texas may have created a lot of jobs, as Rick Perrry likes to boast. But terminating jobs in other parts of the country (that were probably paying better) created those jobs.

Now I hate to do this, but "look at Europe". They realized that in order to compete on a global scale, the individual countries (you can look at them as states if you like) came together and formed the European Union. This was done in the spirit of cooperation and to mutually benefit each other. The power of the Union is far superior on the global scale than that of any individual country.

China! They are the ones everyone is afraid of. They keep taking jobs from us and the rest of the world almost as fast as we can make them. Why is that? They don't give a fuck about local politics (and they don't care about humane working conditions).

Basically what im getting at is that the idea that any of the fifty states on an individual basis matters at all on the global scale is absolutely silly. And once you get past that you need to realize that the market is global, that the states are essentially holding us back. How can you compete in a global market when you are trying to compete amongst different regions of your own country? The federal government may not be perfect and some spending cuts and changes need to take place. But to anyone out there claiming that it is too powerful and needs to be reduced, wake the fuck up. This is no longer the 1800's. We are competing globally, the world is small and the states are specks of dirt. The only way to continue forward is by expanding the federal government and start accepting the fact that Country should and does come before State.

[Iron-Hampster]

If you were to take all the ideologies in the world, and find the exact average, then run the entire world on that ideology alone, NOBODY would be happy.

the more you shift power away from the states, the more people in that area are going to feel like they are being stepped on. The people in Texas are very different from the people in New York, and I'm pretty sure neither of those two given states want anyone in the other state to have a say in their ways of life.

This is why state rights are important.

[animehater]

Yep, fuck regional autonomy, Lets have a few hundred guys at most control every aspect of peoples lives even if they live thousands of miles away. I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong.

Also, your comparisons to China and Europe seem a bit off. Last I checked there's still debate over how much power the EU can have compared to individual countries and in China I hear that they at least make an attempt to create the illusion of self government in regions where there is a large ethnic minority population.

So yeah, people don't like non locals telling them what to do all of the time.

[Warforger]

Oh please the difference between states economically tends to just be taxes, things that effect it globally are the Federal governments jurisdiction like Commerce.

However if you want to look to the guy who made states rights get crippled and things like say the Federal Reserve constitutional look no further than John Marshall.

[Camarohusky]

If the states had control black people wouldn't be able to stay at hotels in Georgia and freight trucks would have to pay to drive through the state of Iowa.

Face it. States are irrational, stupid and are only out to serve their own interests, seemingly enjoying doing so at the expense of other states.

[Famas]

At 9/29/11 10:47 PM, Warforger wrote: Oh please the difference between states economically tends to just be taxes, things that effect it globally are the Federal governments jurisdiction like Commerce.

This is wildly inaccurate. I don't think commerce is as simple as you think it is. Look at how far the economies of states like Montana and Michigan have collapsed compared to practically every other state in the union. Hell, Montana technically doesn't even have an economy. Census information shows that somewhere over 80% of Montana citizens have jobs from out of state. There is zero industry there, same with Michigan. Detroit is reaching Robocop levels of dystopia right now. What used to be a large center for motor industry has completely evaporated.

[All-American-Badass]

At 9/29/11 11:11 PM, Famas wrote:

At 9/29/11 10:47 PM, Warforger wrote: Oh please the difference between states economically tends to just be taxes, things that effect it globally are the Federal governments jurisdiction like Commerce.

This is wildly inaccurate. I don't think commerce is as simple as you think it is. Look at how far the economies of states like Montana and Michigan have collapsed compared to practically every other state in the union. Hell, Montana technically doesn't even have an economy. Census information shows that somewhere over 80% of Montana citizens have jobs from out of state. There is zero industry there.

80% have jobs from out of state? Yeah i call bullshit on that. As far as i know Montana's economy actually took the recession relatively well compared to other states, In fact when i lived up in Billings back in 07-08 They had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Montana has a good mining industry and a good tourism industry.
That aside I'm all for decentralizing the government to give states a reasonable amount of power, a group of representatives from Massachusetts has no clue what the hell is the best for people in Utah and vise versa. Congress should stick to issues like federal taxes and national defense. and leave stuff like regulations to the states.

[Famas]

At 9/29/11 11:32 PM, All-American-Badass wrote: 80% have jobs from out of state? Yeah i call bullshit on that. As far as i know Montana's economy actually took the recession relatively well compared to other states, In fact when i lived up in Billings back in 07-08 They had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Montana has a good mining industry and a good tourism industry.

Unemployment has nothing to do with whether or not you work outsourced jobs. If your employer is across state borders, that still counts as employment as far as the Bureau of Labor Statistics is concerned. As far as I know, there has been agonizingly slow increase in the labor division for the private sector, and in fact the government is one of the biggest contributors to the state's GDP with about $6 billion annually.

I agree the figure of 80% seems abnormally high, I'm probably not recalling that correctly. I'll try to find a solid source for a better figure, but I'm having problems finding anything on google.

[Love]

Well, that may be true. But, the last thing I want is an inevitable global government run by a small group of people. Sovereignty on reasonable scale is the best way for society to thrive IMHO.

[All-American-Badass]

At 9/29/11 11:50 PM, Famas wrote:

At 9/29/11 11:32 PM, All-American-Badass wrote: 80% have jobs from out of state? Yeah i call bullshit on that. As far as i know Montana's economy actually took the recession relatively well compared to other states, In fact when i lived up in Billings back in 07-08 They had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Montana has a good mining industry and a good tourism industry.

Unemployment has nothing to do with whether or not you work outsourced jobs. If your employer is across state borders, that still counts as employment as far as the Bureau of Labor Statistics is concerned.

The thing is most the population centers in Montana are fairly distant from state lines, So unless the consider employers that are based out of state yet have branches in that state in the statistic i'd question anything over 10%

[SadisticMonkey]

Ugh, you're an idiot.

We need to get rid of comgress, as well as the constitution. Oh, and elections too.

America has to compete globally, and yet it's being torn apart by the competing special interests of hundreds of mouth-breathing senators and representatives, not to mention the constant pressures of the election cycle and having to worry about the fickle, selfish interests of the majority.

And the constitution? Jesus Christ. America's got it's leader up there trying desperately to save it, and he has to worry about what some guys a few hundred years ago wrote. Insane.

If america is to have any hope of regaining its former glory, we need an all powerful executive who is free to do what's in the best interests of the great nation of america.

[Love]

At 9/30/11 05:55 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Ugh, you're an idiot.

We need to get rid of comgress, as well as the constitution. Oh, and elections too.

In case you haven't noticed, the Constitution is the last thing keeping our freedoms alive. Without it (and congress) we would end up like Russia and China. If you care more about the economy and money than your rights instituted by men "two-hundred years ago", leave America - and good luck to you.

Democracies have been among the most powerful political systems (modern and ancient). I see no reason why America cannot compete globally as a sovereign, democratic state. We need the innovation that we once had to develop energy resources that we don't have to import. And, we ESPECIALLY need to purge these immoral occupations from the regime.

Unfortunately, I realize this will never happen. America will loose her identity or she will completely collapse when the world decides to ditch the Petro-Dollar.

[Camarohusky]

At 9/30/11 05:55 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Ugh, you're an idiot.

Have you ever heard the concept that sometimes radical ideas make better discussion topics than actual policy? If Perdue's stunt highlights how Congressman are governing to get elected, then maybe we can craft a reasonable way to fix this problem.

We need to get rid of comgress, as well as the constitution. Oh, and elections too.

senators and representatives ... selfish interests of the majority.

Ha! If you think that Congress cares about the majority you have got to be craay.

[Famas]

At 9/30/11 12:22 AM, All-American-Badass wrote: The thing is most the population centers in Montana are fairly distant from state lines, So unless the consider employers that are based out of state yet have branches in that state in the statistic i'd question anything over 10%

The vast majority of people working out-of-state jobs are employed by companies that outsource to Montana and include things like IT work and corporate jobs that can be worked from home. I'm still looking for a credible source that can provide a solid percentage figure on this (proving to be difficult, I don't even know if this is something the Montana census would even bother to publish online), so until I do, you can just ignore the statistic I quoted, but the example of states like Michigan still stand.

I'm fairly certain however that it was a large enough chunk of the Montana population to create a revenue problem for the state due to the way its tax code is structured.

[SteveGuzzi]

yeah let's treat the entire U.S. as a homogenized, undifferentiated whole. that'll show em.

[Bolo]

At 9/30/11 05:55 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: America has to compete globally, and yet it's being torn apart by the competing special interests of hundreds of mouth-breathing senators and representatives, not to mention the constant pressures of the election cycle and having to worry about the fickle, selfish interests of the majority.

There are many times more mouth-breathing senators and representatives in state legislatures than there are in the federal legislature.

[morefngdbs]

At 9/29/11 10:09 PM, BUTANE wrote: I felt like going on a bit of a rant.

this is quite the rant you got going.
While I don't have time to address all your points, this one popped & I thought i would comment.

China! They are the ones everyone is afraid of. They keep taking jobs from us and the rest of the world almost as fast as we can make them. Why is that?

;;;
Quite simply the third world countries (its not just China) have an abundance of cheap labor.
American & other large Corperate companies ,have taken the equipment & Set themselves up in these 3rd world countries, pay shit wages to make the things they were producing in the US.
They then ship them to the US & sell it for the same price they were selling it for before they laid off the American workers.
Pocketing the extra profit made off the cheap labor.

This also allows them to build cheap crap that they could never produce here as cheaply, & sell it for a profit.

So this is a one ,two, three punch.
1, Americans have lost millions of jobs.
2, lost infastructure aka closed down, means lost taxes paid to local communities for these building, factories etc.
3, the lost good paying jobs from the factory/manufacturing workers. then effects the suppliers, the truckers/transportation industry, the service industries , basicly everyone else.

End result, your going bankrupt & unless you can stop that, a collapse is inevitable.

[Warforger]

At 9/30/11 05:55 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: If america is to have any hope of regaining its former glory, we need an all powerful executive who is free to do what's in the best interests of the great nation of america.

You forgot to put the "-Karl Marx" at the end of your post.

[Camarohusky]

At 10/5/11 07:08 PM, Warforger wrote: You forgot to put the "-Karl Marx" at the end of your post.

Slippin'

[MatthewF]

This thread is more or less Ron Paul's entire philosophy of remanding everything to states.
Would you rather have a federal government that is relatively far away from you being oppressive? Would you rather have the state and local governments taking the place of Big Brother? You cannot get away from them then. Sure you can move to another state but chances are it will be as bad there thats if you have the resources to move.

[Camarohusky]

At 10/7/11 07:57 AM, MatthewF wrote: Sure you can move to another state but chances are it will be as bad there thats if you have the resources to move.

The issue I find with ultimate State power is that extremist majorities are easier to build when there is a smaller number of total people to dilute them. Even when the majorities cannot be created large blocs with enough power to influence can be created (Think tablespoon in a barrel to tablespoon in a cup) The diluting effect of the masses best serves th rights of people and companies when chosenover the States.

[eagles0009]

UMDBRO?