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Palestinian statehood

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Dogbert581
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Palestinian statehood 2011-09-23 17:41:03 Reply

I'd be interested to know what people's opinions on Palestine's bid to the UN to become a recognised state.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-e ast-15033357

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-e ast-15043422

I personally think that whatever the outcome of the security council's vote, the US should not use it's veto as it has threatened to do. I feel the whole veto system is flawed in that it places too much power in 5 members of the UN.

Love
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-23 17:43:53 Reply

It's not going to end well either way. Let's do something right for a change and not care.

Palestinian statehood


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lapis
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-23 19:23:07 Reply

At 9/23/11 07:10 PM, simple-but-sandy wrote: Hamas being one of those terrorist type organisations we're supposed to look down on.

Pfft, yeah. Remember how Thatcher refused to talk to Nelson Mandela because he was a terrorist? You know, because he founded a terrorist organisation that killed dozens of innocent people. And now he's hailed all over the world as a hero.

Of course, the part about being "supposed to look down" on anything is the main fucking joke. In the eighties you were at war with Eurasia. Oh sorry, did I say Eurasia? I meant East-Asia. We've always been at peace with Eurasia. Disagree and you're an anti-Semite.


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lapis
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-23 19:44:08 Reply

No idea what your point is. What I found funny was the "we're supposed to" bit. Now we're supposed to look down on Hamas. Yet, nowwe're also supposed to look up to Mandela, even though he's just as much of a terrorist. So fuck whatever we're supposed to. Just sayin'.


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aviewaskewed
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-23 22:59:04 Reply

What I've been finding funny in the "really? Really? Fuck you!" sort of way is that what has the US's stance been on this issue for at least 2 decades or so now? A two-state solution. Meaning Israel is a state, Palestine is a state. Palestine has decided now that they're going to appeal to the UN to get statehood, which would thus create...ya know...two states.

Yet the US is threatening to veto...what huh? Should we really be playing politics with the lives of people who we don't even fucking govern?


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orangebomb
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-23 23:53:15 Reply

To America and Israel, they are trying their damndest to stop the Palestinians from being recognised as a country by the UN, and constantly talk about how "Hamas controls Palestine, they're terrorists and they're murderers." and so on and so forth.

Like it really matters though, the West Bank is still one huge shit hole that is being harrassed by Israel all the time, so it's not like they're going to get any better econonic-wise or anything like that. But I guess they'll get the chance to get some of those perks for being part of the UN, for whats it's worth, even if it is mostly ran by Hamas, a terrorist group who hates Israel as much as Iran and most of the Middle East for that matter.


Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.

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satanbrain
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 00:43:05 Reply

So you haven't heard the part when he said that palestine is occupied since 1948, that his state will be judenrein, that terrorsits who murder civilians for their ethnicity are freedom fighters or that he will never acknowledge our state.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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BUTANE
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 00:57:00 Reply

I've always been critical of Israel and this no exception. I think as Americans we pander to them way too much. I'm not sure how i feel about the veto power within the United Nations, I don't know enough about the internal workings to make a statement as to weather it is good or bad. I do, however, think we should be in favor (as a nation) of accepting Palestine as a sovereign nation. We constantly talk about Israel as being our greatest Ally in the region, but maybe other countries would be willing to work with us if we stopped working in the interest of Israel. I mean we constantly condemn middle eastern countries for oppressing their citizens and being ruled by dictators (Iran, Syria, Jordan, Libya etc). Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Golan Heights is a pretty F'd-up system as well, they are most definitely oppressing people under their control (they just don't do it to their own citizens).


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Loiarlyritpyat
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 01:12:06 Reply

Yeah, why not Yemen, Bahrain etc... Please Obama we need Kinetic Military Action there too.

Iron-Hampster
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 01:20:22 Reply

A recognized state? That would only make things worse. We should approach it the way Gandhi wanted to approach India's separation, they didn't do it his way so now you have Pakistan and India left being mad at each other forever. It will take some but eventually the Palestine and Israelis will be able to coexist but not until their apartheid ends. This "separate but equal" shit has never worked and never will.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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dontpanic01
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 02:27:34 Reply

At 9/24/11 01:20 AM, Iron-Hampster wrote: A recognized state? That would only make things worse. We should approach it the way Gandhi wanted to approach India's separation, they didn't do it his way so now you have Pakistan and India left being mad at each other forever. It will take some but eventually the Palestine and Israelis will be able to coexist but not until their apartheid ends. This "separate but equal" shit has never worked and never will.

I get your point but they will never unify into the palestinian-Israeli nation that you dream of because of their respective religionsand the ethnic history (people just won't let that shit go), but I must say that your idea is the best.

(I was gonna start thus thread but someone beat me to it, crap..)


apparently I'm clever enough to declare myself as a dumbass

Korriken
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 09:30:39 Reply

The problem isn't with Palestinian statehood. the problem lies with the borders. And of course, I'm sure Palestine is gonna want to set the borders in a way that will give them some reason to keep the conflict going.

The only time there will ever be peace in the middle east is when all the muslims, or all the jews are eliminated and their religion scoured from the world. until then, the conflicts will continue.

Personally, I'd rather see the muslims go, mostly because the jews don't have a habit of dynamiting ancient religious artifacts because they're not muslim artifacts.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

lapis
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 12:31:17 Reply

Bill Clinton: [Israeli prime minister] Netanyahu killed the peace process. It's funny because pro-Israel advocates always quote Bill Clinton's response to Arafat rejecting the Camp David deal to show that it's "the" Palestinians that are obstructing peace.


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MattDogg
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 18:50:12 Reply

I think what the Palestinians should do after their statehood is to expel all settlers squatting on their land, no exceptions. Thats what the Poland did to the German settlers after World War 2 because they they are very hostile to the natives.

Warforger
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 19:05:09 Reply

It's fine, personally I think they should just unite but at this point I'll just say this, the radicals on both sides are to blame, they're the scum that should be swept away.


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satanbrain
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-24 23:22:53 Reply

At 9/24/11 06:50 PM, MattDogg wrote: I think what the Palestinians should do after their statehood is to expel all settlers squatting on their land, no exceptions.

Only that they define all israel as their palestine. Exile us again? Is that your solution?


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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aviewaskewed
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 01:18:50 Reply

At 9/24/11 09:30 AM, Korriken wrote: Personally, I'd rather see the muslims go, mostly because the jews don't have a habit of dynamiting ancient religious artifacts because they're not muslim artifacts.

Well, to be fair, the Jews haven't historically been a major world power or secure in their position in society to ever actually start developing such bad habits. But considering Israel identifies as Jewish, and gets accused of atrocities about as much as palestine...makes me think the only thing really separating these people is little things like a flag, a book, and a interpretation of the nature of their shared God and who is the real "chosen one". Otherwise, it does seem to me it'll never get better until one side is completely out of the area.


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MattDogg
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 07:06:37 Reply

At 9/24/11 11:22 PM, satanbrain wrote: Only that they define all israel as their palestine. Exile us again? Is that your solution?

What I mean is the Palestinians should expel the settlers from the West Bank considering the settlers have been hostile to the Palestinians by stealing their water, burning their farms and killing them with guns. BTW it is the Israelis that don't want Palestinian statehood.

satanbrain
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 09:02:05 Reply

At 9/25/11 07:06 AM, MattDogg wrote: What I mean is the Palestinians should expel the settlers from the West Bank considering the settlers have been hostile to the Palestinians by stealing their water, burning their farms

Prove all of them do it and that the IDF isn't attempting to prevent it.

and killing them with guns.

When they are defending themselves from violent "protesters".

BTW it is the Israelis that don't want Palestinian statehood.

Jordan is their land, if they wish to gain control of their own land they should blame the Hashemite dynasty, not us. and for this "only the west bank" theory, abbas already claimed that palestinans have been occupied since 1948.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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Camarohusky
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 11:26:43 Reply

At 9/24/11 11:22 PM, satanbrain wrote: Exile us again?

This is why I will NEVER support Israel.

STOP BEING SO MELODRAMATIC!!!!!!! People who don't 100% agree with Israel are NOT drooling over the elimination of the country!

Until you can show maturity on THIS account, I will never believe you will be able to show enough maturity to handle Palestine. Face it, Israel is an angry child with lots of weapons who just can't figure out why people don't like him (after he beats up everybody and then plays the victim card as if it was the other peoples' fault he beat them up)

Message to the country of Israel: Grow up.

mloloya1
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 20:15:55 Reply

..There is a chance I am being super ignorant saying this, but if Palestine becomes a State and Hammas attacks Israel from Palestine...would it not be war at this point? That alone is reason enough to not allow them to become a State.

MattDogg
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 21:47:20 Reply

At 9/25/11 09:02 AM, satanbrain wrote: Prove all of them do it and that the IDF isn't attempting to prevent it.

This is proof that the settlers did those horrible crimes and the IDF did nothing to stop the settlers
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/new s/rights-group-probe-idf-failure-to-prot ect-palestinians-from-settler-violence-1 .253889
http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence/
idf

When they are defending themselves from violent "protesters".

proof?

Jordan is their land, if they wish to gain control of their own land they should blame the Hashemite dynasty, not us. and for this "only the west bank" theory, abbas already claimed that palestinans have been occupied since 1948.

Nope Jordan is not Palestine, only Zionists repeat the same old discredited mantra that Jordan is the alternative homeland for the Palestinians.

MattDogg
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 21:51:59 Reply

At 9/25/11 08:15 PM, mloloya1 wrote: ..There is a chance I am being super ignorant saying this, but if Palestine becomes a State and Hammas attacks Israel from Palestine...would it not be war at this point? That alone is reason enough to not allow them to become a State.

Oh what a surprise, a Zionist does not like Palestinian statehood?

Korriken
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 21:56:17 Reply

At 9/25/11 08:15 PM, mloloya1 wrote: ..There is a chance I am being super ignorant saying this, but if Palestine becomes a State and Hammas attacks Israel from Palestine...would it not be war at this point? That alone is reason enough to not allow them to become a State.

you can go to war with factions that are not in control of nations.

Israel should go in, round up the head of the Palestinian government, and his top generals and execute them all in public and promise the came reaction to those who replace them if they don't stop attacking Israel.

after 2 or 3 instances of this, they'll knock it off.

kinda hard to say you want peace when you fire rockets towards civilian populations.

course, in reality, neither side wants peace.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

MattDogg
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 22:13:36 Reply

At 9/24/11 09:30 AM, Korriken wrote:
Personally, I'd rather see the muslims go, mostly because the jews don't have a habit of dynamiting ancient religious artifacts because they're not muslim artifacts.

Hmm but the moslims lived longer there so the european jews should go

satanbrain
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-25 23:28:58 Reply

At 9/25/11 09:47 PM, MattDogg wrote: This is proof that the settlers did those horrible crimes and the IDF did nothing to stop the settlers

why do you think this water connection was legal?If you understood what they say

Nope Jordan is not Palestine, only Zionists repeat the same old discredited mantra that Jordan is the alternative homeland for the Palestinians.

It is not alternative, it is their homeland. Israel is ours. We have never given israel up, thus they cannot own israel. Read about the roman exile and the arab occupation of israel.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-26 01:56:29 Reply

At 9/25/11 11:28 PM, satanbrain wrote: why do you think this water connection was legal?If you understood what they say

How convenient, you ignored my two other links

It is not alternative, it is their homeland. Israel is ours. We have never given israel up, thus they cannot own israel. Read about the roman exile and the arab occupation of israel.

Nope, the true Israelites are the Samaritans not some European colonists. Jordanians and Palestinians reject that malicious claim you Zionists made.The only ones accepting that claim are Zionists. BTW, that land isn't yours, its Canaanites land.

satanbrain
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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-26 13:26:58 Reply

At 9/26/11 01:56 AM, MattDogg wrote: Nope, the true Israelites are the Samaritans not some European colonists.

Samartians are israelites assimilated with other, now extinct, tribes. They are mostly not israelite. As genetic studies have proven. You may call them true religious jews if you wish, but they aren't ethnically jews.

Jordanians and Palestinians reject that malicious claim you Zionists made.

Because they do not want us to own it.

The only ones accepting that claim are Zionists. BTW, that land isn't yours, its Canaanites land.

Which do not exist to claim it anymore. We are the earliest nation to own it and thus it is ours. We have never given it up and so no other nation can own it. We were exiled from israel, we didn't "leave" it behind.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-26 16:02:11 Reply

At 9/26/11 01:26 PM, satanbrain wrote: Which do not exist to claim it anymore. We are the earliest nation to own it and thus it is ours. We have never given it up and so no other nation can own it. We were exiled from israel, we didn't "leave" it behind.

This whole "who was there first" argument is a load of crap. Frankly, very few countries, especially major countries, can claim they were there first.

The issue is that we have an Established Israel in there now and many areas that Isarel openly admits or occupied territories. All of these "ancestral rights" arguments can go by the wayside. In the disputed areas who most deserves it based on current populations, recent military and political history, and economic concerns.

Focus only on the current issues, as focusing on the distant past will only further the current stalemate.

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Response to Palestinian statehood 2011-09-26 17:58:15 Reply

Ok, I am nipping this right in the fucking bud now. MattDog and Satanbrain: You will STOP arguing who owns Israel or these other things that have been argued extensively in TWO prior threads! I have even argued these things with satan myself. It's circular, it goes nowhere, because satan doesn't listen or accept anything that doesn't agree with his logic. Either drop the subject now and return to the idea of Palestinian statehood, or face the consequences.

This goes for everybody else who wants to try and derail this thread with this same tired argumentation. It always ends up at the same place, and it's not welcome anymore.


You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate. --Mark Pryor, Senator
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