Is it worth pursuing?

[TaleTellingTortoise]

Pretty simple; is Flash / ActionScript worth pursuing? I would like to think if I did this, my goal would be to create games with enough quality that I could make something worthwhile of my time (a career?). I know that's quite a stretch from knowing pretty much nothing, but that's how it stands at the moment.

I'm curious as of the longevity of Flash. Will it survive the test of time for creating games, or will it start to fade? Is it fool-hearty to go into this thinking I could make enough money, at some point, to support myself?

I really want HONEST opinions, however harsh.

Thank you!

[MichaelJ]

It depends. Do you like flash? Have you tried it? Do you have the patience to learn the program?

[4urentertainment]

In terms of making money and starting out in a career, I believe flash is the perfect way to start. It has a low barrier to entry, you can make and release your first game without paying a dime, and it doesn't have as much risk involved as other markets.

Making and releasing flash games should teach you a lot about game development, and should you get good at it, you'll most likely be able to sustain yourself from flash alone, as many do. It also gives you the opportunity to expand and hit other markets in the future.

So yeah, if you want to get into game development, there's no reason not to start with flash. Just make sure to pick up a good, solid understanding of programming and be keen on doing things the "right" way, even if they seem unnecessarily complicated, because it will save you a lot of time if you choose to head over to other languages or platforms.

[Sandremss128]

Please just stay in school and go learn a real profession. Flash is a great hobby though.

[bikinigames]

At 9/1/11 04:44 PM, Sandremss128 wrote: Please just stay in school and go learn a real profession. Flash is a great hobby though.

Oh silly you and your superiority. Tell that to Tom Fulp ;)

[VigilanteNighthawk]

Didn't realize computer programming, graphic design, character design, etc weren't real professions.

[4urentertainment]

At 9/2/11 11:27 PM, bikinigames wrote:

At 9/1/11 04:44 PM, Sandremss128 wrote: Please just stay in school and go learn a real profession. Flash is a great hobby though.

Oh silly you and your superiority. Tell that to Tom Fulp ;)

I believe Tom Fulp said the exact same thing a long while ago in a newspost, when everyone saw that Fulp managed to make this much money from flash, and everyone thought they could abandon school and stay the same.

Flash just isn't lucrative like that. Programming, graphic design and everything is a real professional and all as long as you've actually got a degree in one of those fields and are working in them. But when you're making indie flash games, you're just one guy at home making money out of a hobby which, no matter how much you may earn at one point, could crash onto you sometime else.

It's incredibly risky to live off, and you might end up doing less than minimum wage. This applies no matter how good you are. Which is why, if you ask any professional, they'd all tell you to get a real job and not rely on Flash for your main income unless you've already earned a lot, and have a lot of it saved.

Hope this puts things more into context.

[Sandremss128]

At 9/2/11 11:27 PM, bikinigames wrote:

Please just stay in school

Oh silly you and your superiority. Tell that to Tom Fulp ;)

Sure it worked out for him, but what if you are 18 years old and got a chance to go to the university. Would you do that or drop out of school and work only on flash.
Sure you can make a living out of it, you wont have a hard time once you get there. But even our good friend Tom is no millionaire and hes one of the most successful people in our world. Imagine after 10 or 20 years you've got enough of the flash industry and wanted to work somewhere else, they wont give a crap if you say you've had experience in the flash industry. If you can say you are a master of Software Science they will look at you differently.
As for me this year is my first year that I am going to do Software Science at the Technical University of Eindhoven (one of the smartest regions in the world :D):
http://www.tue.nl/studeren/bacheloroplei dingen/technische-informatica/software-s cience/waarom-eindhoven/

This study will make a solid foundation for my profession for the rest of my life. You cant say the same if you are spending these years on making flash games for yourself or in a small team. Why is that really?
Its because most programmers can make flash games, if you look at it closely you will find out that there arent really that much complicated flash games, most are casual that are fun for 5 minutes; and hey, it works! Most games in the flash industry aren't even remotely refreshing, they can just tap in to existing libraries of code to create the 'new' game. There is no discussion possible about the fact that flash games are really nothing compared to the big games for consoles and computers, but that doesn't mean they dont have a place and are not important at all; this is just about the scope and industrial meaning.

Then when we look at future perspective we'll see that working as a programmer for flash games doesn't really allow much other things later except when you have a course completed. Doing a good study will allow you to do almost everything in the ICT, from managing a team from programming yourself on various projects, could be games; could be anything.
Just think about where you want to be after 10, 20 years and you'll see.

[4urentertainment]

At 9/3/11 04:59 AM, Sandremss128 wrote: There is no discussion possible about the fact that flash games are really nothing compared to the big games for consoles and computers.

I agree with your post, except for this part. On the contrary, I think you have it the other way around. If anything, it's the big budget console games which have absolutely little innovation and nothing quite new or ground breaking at all when it comes to programming. In fact, most of these console games are all made with engines they licensed, or engines that were made years ago and are just refined for the new releases.

Flash games, on the other hand, or indie games in general, are a perfect ground for innovation where there's very little risk compared to other markets. If you look close enough, and over the years, you'll find there have been more original/innovative concepts than in other markets. The best thing about it is that, if you've got any original idea, you can pump out the game in under a week and see how millions react to it.

[Sandremss128]

Actually, that is totally true and I can say nothing to invalidate that. What is true is that the big money is in the big games. Those big corporations cant risk it to have a bad game idea because to realise a game idea there takes millions of dollars and years of time. This fact makes those corporations play it safe (especially these days where the market isn't doing great).
This makes flash games have more potential in discovering new ideas. But even in the flash community there are allot of games that are just 'fill-up' games like another motocross racing game, or another tower defence - you know.

[SantoNinoDeCebu]

Don't make flash you end game.. or put all eggs into 1 baskets as they say.
If you pidgin-hole yourself into 1 thing now and fail then you got nothing else to fall back on.

Art, programming and design are universal skills that you can apply many things, including flash. So learn the basic skill, that way if you are in flash games and it doesn't have the longevity you had hoped you have the primary skill set and qualification to seamlessly move on to something else.

[bikinigames]

At 9/3/11 09:03 AM, SantoNinoDeCebu wrote: Don't make flash you end game.. or put all eggs into 1 baskets as they say.
If you pidgin-hole yourself into 1 thing now and fail then you got nothing else to fall back on.

There is your answer OP ^

[VigilanteNighthawk]

At 9/3/11 04:59 AM, Sandremss128 wrote:

At 9/2/11 11:27 PM, bikinigames wrote:

This study will make a solid foundation for my profession for the rest of my life. You cant say the same if you are spending these years on making flash games for yourself or in a small team. Why is that really?
Its because most programmers can make flash games, if you look at it closely you will find out that there arent really that much complicated flash games, most are casual that are fun for 5 minutes; and hey, it works! Most games in the flash industry aren't even remotely refreshing, they can just tap in to existing libraries of code to create the 'new' game. There is no discussion possible about the fact that flash games are really nothing compared to the big games for consoles and computers, but that doesn't mean they dont have a place and are not important at all; this is just about the scope and industrial meaning.

Now that I see where you are coming from, I'll say I half agree with this statement. I agree that education is important. I think where my main disagreement comes from is that to me, flash is ultimately just a platform, and it is a good platform if you want to begin to learn how to program, and it does provide a low barrier to entry if you want to program indy games. I'll also agree that many flash games aren't that impressive in part because of it's easy to program in. (There are some issues with the platform itself that I think also limit what can be done with it.) That said, learning programming concepts is important. The platform itself is only relevant in as much as it is appropriate to the task at hand. I write games in flash, but the books I learn AI from have the code in C and C++. When you know how to program, a language just becomes syntax and libraries. It's the algorithms that count.

I also wouldn't say that even without education (which I wouldn't recommend skipping), that means that you'd be stuck doing games. You can still do other forms of web development with flash, for example, and you will pick up some programming skills that would allow you to go into other areas, at least freelance. Working for a large company, however, would be difficult to say the least.

Then when we look at future perspective we'll see that working as a programmer for flash games doesn't really allow much other things later except when you have a course completed. Doing a good study will allow you to do almost everything in the ICT, from managing a team from programming yourself on various projects, could be games; could be anything.
Just think about where you want to be after 10, 20 years and you'll see.

Again, I agree with getting an education, but at the same time, twenty years of doing flash would have other benefits as well, including learning how to manage teams, resources, and client relations all in addition to programming skills.

At the same time, someone who majors in comp sci may find ten years out that they do not want to program anymore, or have anything to do with the IT industry. When I was the OP's age, I wanted to teach. Now, I do web development and am moving into flash for indy games. I also kno many people in their 40's who left other industries, including software industry, to teach.

What I would suggest is for the OP to simply try out flash and see if he likes it before necessarily committing himself to any sort of education. It won't take too long for him to see if he enjoys programming, and I would recommend he gives a shot before committing himself to an education and career path he may not enjoy. Here in the US at least, college (ie university in other countries) is a rather expensive proposition. It will also allow him to try out various aspects of development, from programming to art, and see what he likes the best.

That said, if he DOES enjoy it, then I would strongly suggest getting an education in whatever aspect of the field he enjoys the most. It will give him more mobility within the industry, and it will allow him to far more than the average person who does JUST flash. I've learned a lot of comp sci on my own, and it's helped me immensely, and I do plan on going back and taking comp sci courses next year. (I have a degree for teaching, not programming.) I'm not sure if I ever plan on working as a corporate employee, but the knowledge itself will worth it.

[strip-arcade]

The way I see it, there are two paths you can take if you want a creative role in the game industry...

1) You somehow manage to get into a large established game company. Possibly starting out as a tester or an entry level programmer. There's still a long ways to go once you get there, though. Everyone at that company will think they have great game ideas, so just getting into the company won't be enough if you really want to take on a creative role. You'll need to then work your way up through the company somehow, until you get to a position where you're able to put your ideas into the games you're working on. If you can manage to work your way high enough up that ladder, you might even be able to take on a director type role and actually lead a team in creating your entire game idea. It's a tough ladder to climb, though, and not many people make it all the way to the top.

2) You go the way of the indie game developer. Instead of trying to work your up in an existing company, you start your own company and do it yourself. Going this route, you can work on whatever game you want to work on--you're the boss. This comes with it's own set of challenges as well, though. Unless you can find people willing to help (or funding to pay people to help), you'll need to learn all of the skills required to create your game by yourself. This includes programming, graphic design, music, sound effects, level design, etc etc. You'll also need to get your game published somehow. Most indies do this themselves, so you'll want to have some good business and marketing skills. Finally, you might have to face the fact that an indie studio has limitations that big companies simply don't have--namely million dollar budgets. So you'll have to recognize what your limitations are and be able to work within them.

If the indie route sounds appealing to you, then Flash is a great tool to use. The tools you'll need are cheap or free, and there are plenty of markets available to publish flash games in now. You've got newgrounds and facebook of course, along with lots of smaller flash game portal sites. There are also some niche marketplaces that you could checkout, like this shameless plug for my very own camgirl/flash game site, www.strip-arcade.com! (NSFW)

You can also go the indie route and use other tools, like open-source development libraries (check out Ogre3D) or Microsoft's XNA where you can create games for the indie marketplace on XBox 360. These will be much more difficult to use, however, so you still might want to give Flash a try--even if it's just to learn from as you get started with all of this. I think Flash is definitely a viable option by itself, though. You just might need to get a little creative with how you market your games and intend to make money from them. Good luck out there!

[TaleTellingTortoise]

I think these are REALLY the answers I needed. To be quite honest, I've tried this before (I was also looking at Unity, but... ), but I quit! I didn't really have much trouble with the coding / scripting (or whatever you should call it), but I just couldn't bring myself to... care about it... I guess if I must question myself on my devotion to what actually makes the games foundation, I should already know the answer.

You've all shed some light on quite a number of interesting points, all of which I'll be taking notice to. I especially liked the not limiting ones self to something so focused, lest it fail and you're left with nothing.

Thank you all, very much. :D