Eliminating Summer Vacation

[Proteas]

Catchy title, ain't it?

Here is my reasoning behind it; according to a Time Magazine article, summer break as it is practiced today came about as a practice that took a modified version of the schooling breaks taken by children in rural/agricultural areas to help with planting and harvest times, and used it to temper the rather extreme 48 school year practiced by people in the city.

But, the intention that summer break originally had is no longer applicable, due in no small part to child labor laws. Yes, thanks to those pesky child labor laws (the bane of the industrialized age), you can no longer get a job under the age of 16 in most states. And even then, you're limited to how many hours out of the day (and at what time of day) you can work. You can't work during school hours, you can't work past x hour in the evening, you have to have a break, or your employer will get fined out the ass.

So, now we have a 2 1/2 month long break during the middle of the summer that serves no purpose. Also, we have studies that show (surprise surprise) kids tend to lose quite a bit of knowledge over summer break. If you have a learning disability, this hurts you more than anybody else when school starts over.

So, I have an idea; eliminate summer break, and switch to what Metro Nashville Schools are toying with; a "balanced" school schedule. Shorter summer break (not yet specified that I've seen), earlier start time (late July/early August), and instead of 36 weeks with short breaks, it will be a 9 weeks on with 2 weeks off system.

As someone who was a homeschooler, I don't don't what to think of this. It seems like I worked with someone a while back who's local county schools used this kind of system, and they said it was easier on the kids both academically and in terms of reducing the mental exhaustion that goes along with the grueling school year that's currently in practice. Sounds good to me, but tell me what you think; would going to an alternate school schedule, and thereby shortening/eliminating the school break during the summer be beneficial to public school students, or not?

[Warforger]

Wasn't there a study done a couple years ago that showed schools that did have year long school year didn't really perform any better than schools that didn't? Currently the only reason Summer break is so long is due to budget cuts, it costs money to keep the schools running each day so they have to cut the amount of days in the school year.

[Camarohusky]

Summer vacation has some good uses from the lowest level of education to the highest.

During the lower levels of education, it allows for credit recovery to occur without pushing a student back. Without the substanital chunk of time to make up lost credits and classes from the school year, the student will be forced to use regular time to make up for the lost credits thus depriving them of golden opportunities to return to normalcy.

When a student reaches working age (14 or 16) the summer break gives them an opportunity to not only learn how to work like and adult, but to contribute to their family as well, and do so in a manner that does not interfere with schooling.

Finally, when it comes to higher education, summer vacation becomes an extremely valuable period. It allows students to take needed, or special elective courses, to pursue study abroad programs, and most importantly, a way to get a full time intership for a period of time.

I haven't even spent time on the cultural aspects such as tradition, grade boundaries, and athletics.

[djack]

At 8/22/11 11:20 PM, Warforger wrote: Wasn't there a study done a couple years ago that showed schools that did have year long school year didn't really perform any better than schools that didn't? Currently the only reason Summer break is so long is due to budget cuts, it costs money to keep the schools running each day so they have to cut the amount of days in the school year.

Actually most year round schools generally don't have any more school days in general it's just that their breaks are more spaced out so changing the schedule wouldn't really increase the cost of operating the school. In fact, since they generally have the hottest and coldest months off heating and cooling costs are less than a school that does take summer vacation. As for the study, I've seen studies that claim year round schools don't do better and I've seen studies that show year round schools do much better so I don't know which to believe anymore.

Personally, I don't think that switching would have a major impact on education. There may be some benefit but it will probably be minimal and there are other ways to improve the school system that could do a lot more good.

[Korriken]

*points to the Japanese school system*

it works better than most, it's a little brutal, but it works, not to mention instills some serious mental discipline into kids. Summer vacation? yeah you get a week off, here's a nice HUGE pile of homework to do while you're off.

[Iron-Hampster]

At 8/23/11 12:19 AM, Korriken wrote: *points to the Japanese school system*

it works better than most, it's a little brutal, but it works, not to mention instills some serious mental discipline into kids. Summer vacation? yeah you get a week off, here's a nice HUGE pile of homework to do while you're off.

well that's just as flawed as any other system. what if you get a kid who has a neurological disorder? that's gonna be like an exaggerated version of hell for him/her.

[RydiaLockheart]

At 8/23/11 12:19 AM, Korriken wrote: *points to the Japanese school system*

It still does have its issues though, like the suicide rate from kids who feel they can't live up to the standards. I like the discipline of it, but there is the possibility of it turning kids into robots.

I know some school districts here in the US already do year-round school. I wonder how their test scores/graduation rates fare as opposed to summer break schools. I know South Carolina is year-round but comparing them to a state with both year-round and summer break schools would skew the results.

[camobch0]

If I didn't have summer break, I'd probably kill myself. School just cannot be a year round thing.

[Chris-V2]

At 8/23/11 12:19 AM, Korriken wrote: *points to the Japanese school system*

it works better than most, it's a little brutal, but it works, not to mention instills some serious mental discipline into kids. Summer vacation? yeah you get a week off, here's a nice HUGE pile of homework to do while you're off.

Hold on one second, mister. My girlfreind was teaching English in Tokyo for the past 6 months and I've to say their school system sucks. Class sizes range from 40-60, Gym is essentialy a series of Military runs, clubs are everything, there's very little discipline practiced in classrooms and the suicide rate amongst youthes is huge. One person who worked for this company used a game of Hangman to get kids to learn through games...the next day one kid hanged himself.

Kids are so indoctrinated into a mentality of conformity and obediance that she wasn't allowed eat anything that wasn't from the school cafateria - otherwise the kids might decide the food wasn't good enough for them either!

Children in Japan are thought conformity, thought suppresion and how to avoid being a human. As the Japanese saying goes: "6 hours sleep, good grades. 8 hours sleep, fail school".

[MultiCanimefan]

Quality of hours in school > Quantity of hours in school.

Have we not understood this yet?

Kids forget some learning when they're not learning, no kidding. Anyone loses skills they don't use over a period of time, more so for children. If kids are taught how to use the skills they gain, especially math, when outside of a classroom, a cut in summer break would be unneeded. But what happens most of the time?

The child passes onto the next grade with good grades, doesn't use any of the gained knowledge, and lo and behold, forgets.

[TheStorkCollector]

A good system would be 3 months of classes, 1 month of no classes, and so on.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/24/11 12:13 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: If kids are taught how to use the skills they gain, especially math, when outside of a classroom, a cut in summer break would be unneeded. But what happens most of the time?
The child passes onto the next grade with good grades, doesn't use any of the gained knowledge, and lo and behold, forgets.

This seems more like a fundamental issues of education here. When the child is young, they have not learned enough basics to apply much of what they learned outside of class. Once they get to that point they immediately move on to things more complex and esoteric that have little application in society. The students that end up making use of the upper lelvels of pre-collegel education are those who will be moving on to college where a basic knowledge of many different subject is both useful and a social expectation.

When you get to the large chunk of society that does not go to higher education, there is only a small sweet spot where the student knows enough to apply things to real life before the subject start going into obscure directions they may have use for once or twice in their lives.

[djack]

At 8/24/11 12:13 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Quality of hours in school > Quantity of hours in school.

Have we not understood this yet?

Kids forget some learning when they're not learning, no kidding. Anyone loses skills they don't use over a period of time, more so for children. If kids are taught how to use the skills they gain, especially math, when outside of a classroom, a cut in summer break would be unneeded. But what happens most of the time?

The child passes onto the next grade with good grades, doesn't use any of the gained knowledge, and lo and behold, forgets.

Like I already said, it doesn't actually result in spending more time at school it just shortens summer vacation and adds more vacations throughout the school year. Besides, even if you teach kids how to use the stuff they're learning in school they are still kids who have no practical use for it in their lives.

[SolInvictus]

i wonder how it would effect the economy considering summer vacation gets some cheap unskilled labor into the system for a few months.

and its a place to get an idea of what life holds for us all.
...not that student labor is a major driving force, just saying.

[psycho-squirrel]

They tried year round schools where I live, however because summers get so hot here (up in the 120's often) They decided against it because they didn't want to pay so much for air conditioning and maintenance. Tried it for like 3 years though.

[GoryBlizzard]

There is absolutely no justification for compulsory year-round schooling, period. Saying that the current school calendar makes no sense now due to it being rooted in our old primarily agrarian-based economy is a load of camel puke. Longer school years cost more money, and will only lead to academic burnout not only among students, but teachers and administrators as well. The quality of instructional time matters a hell of a lot more than the quantity. Plus, there are many people out there who learn a lot more outside school rather than in it, and I'm one of those people.

As far as the issue of knowledge retention goes, it should be up to each individual kid. Many people lose what they don't use, and that applies to adults as well. The fact is that most kids have plenty of opportunities during the summer to apply what they learned in school to something fun or in real life, and those who seize those opportunities usually don't succumb to summer brain drain. There are a lot of math and science camps that take place during the summer as well, and they help with not only maintaining knowledge in those areas, but building on it as well.

Another issue that needs to be addressed is that a lot of what's taught in school now just never gets used in the real world, and it's no wonder people forget this stuff so easily. Countless schools are decades behind in what they're teaching and need to put forth serious efforts to modernize curricula.

What I'd rather see is more states shortening their average school week (and year), not only to save money, but also to provide better quality instruction, which serves everyone better. There are already more than 120 school districts in 21 states with 4-day school weeks instead of the usual 5. The results so far? Teachers being more highly trained, fewer people dropping out, less money squandered, and people just more content in general.

Obama and other proponents of a lengthier school year really need to take all of this into account. The whole idea merely amounts to one gigantic waste, and none of us can afford more waste...not in this economy and not even after it rebounds.

[Proteas]

At 8/25/11 03:02 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote: Obama and other proponents of a lengthier school year really need to take all of this into account. The whole idea merely amounts to one gigantic waste, and none of us can afford more waste...not in this economy and not even after it rebounds.

.... wtf? Obama had nothing even remotely to DO with this topic, I started this after a new service local to me started talking about it on the evening news. This isn't a red-side/blue-side topic, this isn't an issue that will help Obama pathetic poll numbers or win the democrats the white house in 2012, this isn't even about the economy, it's education! Pure and simple.

[ZJ]

They can eliminate summer vacation after I've (hopefully) graduated from college in spring of 2015. :D

[GoryBlizzard]

At 8/25/11 05:13 PM, Proteas wrote: .... wtf? Obama had nothing even remotely to DO with this topic, I started this after a new service local to me started talking about it on the evening news.

What you don't seem to realize is that Obama and his education secretary, Arne Duncan, have been trying to extend the school year since the beginning of his presidency. They want this "balanced calendar," or something really close to it enacted on a federal level. In proposing the extension, both of them have used precisely the same and tired rationale that you've used in your initial post--that the current calendar was more appropriate back when the U.S. economy was more dependent on agriculture. Basically, in their world, a technology-based economy demands more time in the classroom. So yes, Obama has everything to do with this thread even though you don't seem to recognize it.

This isn't a red-side/blue-side topic, this isn't an issue that will help Obama pathetic poll numbers or win the democrats the white house in 2012, this isn't even about the economy, it's education! Pure and simple.

I'm a moderate and couldn't care less about either major party, but you can't just ignore the collateral economic effects that would happen as a result of eliminating summer vacation. That's just idiotic. I also already went over how such an extension is a bad idea from an educational and common sense standpoint. Nobody wants to spend more time in school, and forcing everyone to do so is by no means a small investment. The truth is that nothing I've seen convinces me that there will be a very good return on that investment.

Also, quit it with the lame GTFO pics...last I checked, I wasn't in the General forum.

[djack]

At 8/25/11 08:43 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote: I'm a moderate and couldn't care less about either major party, but you can't just ignore the collateral economic effects that would happen as a result of eliminating summer vacation. That's just idiotic. I also already went over how such an extension is a bad idea from an educational and common sense standpoint. Nobody wants to spend more time in school, and forcing everyone to do so is by no means a small investment. The truth is that nothing I've seen convinces me that there will be a very good return on that investment.

Also, quit it with the lame GTFO pics...last I checked, I wasn't in the General forum.

If this isn't the General forum then maybe you should try reading some posts rather than blindly ranting about what you don't want to happen. I've already pointed out why it wouldn't cost more money and I've talked about how the school year isn't actually extended it just eliminates the 2.5 month summer break and spaces it out through the year.

[GoryBlizzard]

At 8/25/11 08:50 PM, djack wrote: I've already pointed out why it wouldn't cost more money and I've talked about how the school year isn't actually extended it just eliminates the 2.5 month summer break and spaces it out through the year.

Snore.

Also:

http://www.k12academics.com/education-po licy/year-round-school/disadvantages

Specifically:
"Multi-tracking, while cost effective in the short term, actually ends up costing more due to higher utility costs, less or no down time for building maintenance, and the loss of opportunity to build before the cost of labor and materials rise after population increases force the building of new facilities. Multi-tracking does not alleviate the need for new school construction, it merely puts off the decision to build until it is even more cost prohibitive, thus locking communities into overcrowded schools and multi-tracking year-round calendars."

The other points are important too.

[djack]

At 8/25/11 09:47 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote:

At 8/25/11 08:50 PM, djack wrote: I've already pointed out why it wouldn't cost more money and I've talked about how the school year isn't actually extended it just eliminates the 2.5 month summer break and spaces it out through the year.

Snore.

Also:

http://www.k12academics.com/education-po licy/year-round-school/disadvantages

Specifically:
"Multi-tracking, while cost effective in the short term, actually ends up costing more due to higher utility costs, less or no down time for building maintenance, and the loss of opportunity to build before the cost of labor and materials rise after population increases force the building of new facilities. Multi-tracking does not alleviate the need for new school construction, it merely puts off the decision to build until it is even more cost prohibitive, thus locking communities into overcrowded schools and multi-tracking year-round calendars."

The other points are important too.

Look at that, the same site also has advantages which include:

"More cost effective use of school facilities"
"Reduce class sizes and overcrowding in classrooms"
"Alleviate need for new school construction"
Or in other words the exact opposite effect of the disadvantage you posted. In fact, since the site you linked to claims that year round schools can both reduce and increase student burnout I'm guessing it doesn't know any of this as a fact and is just repeating the arguments for and against year round schools. Pretty much every disadvantage they list includes an opposite in the advantages section and those that don't are based on the idea that some schools will stay with the same schedule rather than going with what would happen if all schools changed schedules.

There's also nothing about the school year being longer which still makes your claim that students would have to spend more in school complete bs.

[Proteas]

At 8/25/11 08:43 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote: What you don't seem to realize is that Obama and his education secretary, Arne Duncan, have been trying to extend the school year since the beginning of his presidency. They want this "balanced calendar," or something really close to it enacted on a federal level.

Prove it.

You're making the claim, you back it up. I've gone to google and looked, and the only thing I can find on the matter is a cnn article from two years ago where Duncan talks about "studying" the idea, nothing about actually trying to implement it on the federal level. Click.

So yes, Obama has everything to do with this thread even though you don't seem to recognize it.

Contrary to popular belief, the world does not revolve around Barack Obama and the sun does not shine out his ass. I made this topic independent of any knowledge his or Duncan's actions and thoughts on the matter, with the sole intention of introducing something DIFFERENT to this forum to talk about besides Obama or his subordinates.

The truth is that nothing I've seen convinces me that there will be a very good return on that investment.

Have any ideas of your own on how to remedy the matter, then? Or are you going to just sit there and shoot down any ideas you disagree with and offer yourself up as the ultimate authority on the matter?

Also, quit it with the lame GTFO pics...last I checked, last I checked, I wasn't in the General forum.

Actually, it was a not-so-subtle hint for you to go back to general forum.

[Gustavos]

At 8/25/11 09:47 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote:
Also:

http://www.k12academics.com/education-po licy/year-round-school/disadvantages

This linked site is idiotic. In both the "disadvantages" and "advantages" sections, about half of the points are people's opinions about year round education. No statistical data. In the Advantages Section, a proposed "survey" in one of the points claims that 64% of teachers approve of year round education, but the Disadvantages section mentions that most surveys on this matter are rigged to produce a desired result for the voters. What in the hell?

I don't think year round schedules are a particularly good idea, as the concept in theory to me would produce more cons than pros. Rather, somebody mentioned the Japanese schooling system. That system is definitely not the ideal way to go either, but I do like the 12-hour work assignments they dump on kids during their breaks. American public schools should have something similar, but not in the form of assignments. I'd like to see a huge packet of comprehensive clif-notes of the lessons to give us something to study during the break. I mean, kids in sports start their training before school begins. Instead of spending money to create summer courses to cram back our memory, give us the means to retain the information ourselves. Since it's not a graded assignment, it's optional for kids who actually care about their education and advancing in this difficult world where education is the only option.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/25/11 10:51 PM, Gustavos wrote: Since it's not a graded assignment, it's optional for kids who actually care about their education and advancing in this difficult world where education is the only option.

As a kid who cared I can tell you this was never an issue. Those who care will find ways to retain. Those who don't care will ignore ways to retain, even when made easy.

Another education issue that boils down to the motivation of the student and ultimately the motivation of the parents.

[Warforger]

At 8/24/11 12:13 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Quality of hours in school > Quantity of hours in school.

Have we not understood this yet?

Kids forget some learning when they're not learning, no kidding. Anyone loses skills they don't use over a period of time, more so for children. If kids are taught how to use the skills they gain, especially math, when outside of a classroom, a cut in summer break would be unneeded. But what happens most of the time?

The child passes onto the next grade with good grades, doesn't use any of the gained knowledge, and lo and behold, forgets.

Except when the school calender gets shorter teachers have less time to teach their students, this means that they have to cram big projects teaching entire units causing a big influx of homework. This also means if kids fall behind it's harder to get back up to speed due to how fast it moves. So no time matters alot.

[Bantun]

So, I have an idea; eliminate summer break, and switch to what Metro Nashville Schools are toying with; a "balanced" school schedule. Shorter summer break (not yet specified that I've seen), earlier start time (late July/early August), and instead of 36 weeks with short breaks, it will be a 9 weeks on with 2 weeks off system.

Yes.

[orangebomb]

Eliminating summer vacations altogether is completely foolish, because not only the kids wouldn't feel too good about it, what with the stress and all of going to school all year, but the logicistical costs are going to be too high, especially in a lot of public school districts where they're going through budget cuts.

Now it is possible that shortening the summer vacation could work, provided that you get more breaks during the year. {i.e. have an extra week for Christmas, and so on.} Plus, reducing the school week to 4 days each week can also do a lot of wonders, because they can reduce the rate of student dropouts, teacher burnouts and you can save a lot of money as well doing that.

Having all-year compulsory school is virtually counterproductive, and people like Obama who advocate extending the school year, fail to understand the costs of supporting such an action, both in terms of monetary value, {like we need more government waste}, and in terms of the kid's wellbeing. Plus, what average student in America would ever support something like this?, I can safely say that it's a very small amount, if any, but I digress.

[SergeiPetrenko]

Or those stupid children can go to, how do you say, summer school. Why punish the smart ones who can retain the information. Hell in some areas it's not even that long.

[serving7]

I think school should be 365 days a year (366 days on leep year) and the school hours should be from 4am to 12pm