Atheist Mortality

[Proteas]

For quite some time now, I have observed members of this forum in silence. I know more than a fair number of you are atheist and quite vocal about it, and are very quick to hound anyone professing religious belief into silence. Any topic even remotely related to religion quickly devolves into back and forth bickering about the evils of non-specific "religion." As someone who professes a religious belief and background, I know better than to set foot in most of these topics. You guys have enough fun at my expense misrepresenting what I say in order to piss me off as it is, I'm not about to give you guys another reason to mess with me.

But in this topic, I won't be going on the defensive for being religious. I won't be preaching to any of you, I won't be proselytizing, and I won't be telling you you're wrong for being atheists. This is a topic for you all to discuss your favorite thing in the world to discuss; atheism. Doesn't that sound like fun?

Consider this a philosophy topic.

The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

This is where the issue of "mortality" in the topic title comes into play. In spite of the moral intellectual superiority people will demonstrate over each other, we all have one thing in common; we all die. If you're lucky, you die when you least expect it, long before you die a slow lingering death in a nursing home sitting in your own waste barely able to remember your own name. Or you commit suicide, either way, we all die. But I'm curious to see how you deal with the idea of death and the lack of a hereafter.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Now, this question may confuse a few of you at first, but I think we can all agree that atheists are far from evangelical in their efforts to spread their philosophy. Oh, you have countless websites dedicated to the subject, you come on forums like this and frequently discuss the subject, you even have youtube channels and a couple of famous figureheads... but at the end of the day, you don't have Churches, Sunday morning programming, or community outreach programs that spread your philosophy and doctrine, or the countless number of websites the different organized religions have, and you certainly don't go out of your way to endure yourself to others. You don't even have a centralized doctrine or dogma to speak of, much less an organization to ensure that your philosophy lives on. Not that you would want any of those things, anyway, it would make your belief to much like organized religion. So while you may share a viewpoint with people, your beliefs ultimately wind up being your own. And when you die, those beliefs die with you. This is why atheism has never spread in the way organized religion has, sadly, probably never will.

Which brings me to this nifty little graphic, which I've taken the liberty to update.

<straps on asbestos underwear>

[Bacchanalian]

Given the gratuitous introduction, colorful snark throughout, and punchline, exactly why am I to take your questions as anything but emphatic rhetorical expressions, or this thread as anything more than an artfully passive swipe at atheism?

[EclecticEnnui]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

It kinda sucks, but I'd rather believe in that than believing that I'll go to a heaven or whatever, which I am 99.9% sure won't happen and that there'll probably be nothing anyway. (With that 99.9% claim, I'm probably an agnostic atheist.)

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Ditto. However, if I become famous, my beliefs and whatnot will probably live on in many people's lives, in a way. Even if I don't become famous, they'd probably still live on, but on a small scale.

I'll quote Earfetish from when he responded to me a few years ago when I wrote about the fear of dying:

"It's gonna happen anyway. It's pretty good to accept the finality of death because it makes life more precious and special and important.

Loads of things could've gone wrong for me not to be here, like it was a fucking long shot as a sperm, and it was a long shot for my mum and dad too, and for some woman who lived thousands of years ago, but one day I was conceived, and later born, and got the insanely lucky chance to experience life, and intelligent life no less. Out of phenomenal chance, I occurred, and between two long voids of nothingness, I got to look around and appreciate the world; I got to eat food and drink beer and smoke weed and trip and look at beautiful scenery and beautiful women, I got to feel pain and lust and love and desperation and agony and depression, I got to take a massive shit that I needed, have sex, wank, feel pleasure and shame, listen to music, and do so many crazy things that are fucking fantastic.

Also, I was lucky enough to have been born in 1988, where I could get everything on demand, and the chances are that when I die life will be even more amazing. I get to be a human, in 2007, on the internet, drinking beer and listening to death metal, and I even get to go on a plane and go to New York and Malaysia and go to concerts and do pretty much anything I want.

It may well be that the only reason that I think the Earth is so good is because my species has evolved in line with the Earth's features and therefore appreciate the Earth, but that's all thanks to the majesty of evolution, and that's a concept many atheists hold dear to their heart, as it is pretty fascinating.

I am aware that I have only got this one shot, and I was very lucky for getting it because it was sheer chance, but here I am, fucking madly fortunately, like beyond belief, and when I die that's it all over, so I've got a phenomenal appreciation for every moment, really, wasted or not, at least it was experienced.

I see why you'd feel good thinking that God put you here and will take you back, or you were reincarnated and you live forever, but it's like you're missing so much out of life. And you really do only get the one, and you're lucky if you get more than 70 years.

You'd be lucky if you got more than 6 years if you lived a few centuries ago, too."

(Source)

[WizMystery]

The answer to both your questions is an enthusiastic "I don't care."

Much like buddhists I enjoy living in the now. It's all about living life to the fullest and being the best you can be. If nothing truly happens when you die, well then you wouldn't be around to care that nothing's happening, would you?

There's also leaving behind a legacy. I may die, but the changes I've made to this world don't. It may be a very little impact, but it's something.

I find it worse to live a lie. That's why I'm agnostic. If I die and go to hell, well fuck me I was careful. If I die and frabble tie slinger bob, I'll be happy knowing that nobody else really knew what a frabble is.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote:

Doesn't that sound like fun?

Meh

Consider this a philosophy topic.

The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

When I lost my belief in God I had a few days of the "nihilist blues", bothered both by the aforementioned realization, and the realization that while objective morality WITH a god is questionable, objective morality without a god [god is being defined as a sentient creator of the universe in this case] is an impossibility.

Presently I'm not bothered by it, even at my young age. I was originally disturbed by the idea that a person's conscious self would cease to exist, but the 'ceasing' itself isn't painful, it's the thought of ceasing that causes the stress. But if the ceasing is inevitable, it makes sense not to ruin what years you do have to live with a fear of death.

In general I think the key to any Atheist being comfortable with dying is the same as any christian being comfortable with dying. Live a full and meaningful life without regrets [that is to say, without doing things you're going to regret, and if you do do something you regret, do what you can to atone for it] The Atheist that follows the above will die satisfied and the Christian will die in gratitude to their creator, presumably.

On the other hand, atheism might strike several some as liberating; it depends upon what your original conception of the afterlife is. If one's notion of a god is like that of Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) as expressed in his "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God", you're notion of a final judgement might cause considerable stress. Some religions have pleasant afterlife for all, others have pleasant afterlives for a few and others not, some religions have unpleasant afterlives for the vast majority of people.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Now, this question may confuse a few of you at first, but I think we can all agree that atheists are far from evangelical in their efforts to spread their philosophy. Oh, you have countless websites dedicated to the subject, you come on forums like this and frequently discuss the subject, you even have youtube channels and a couple of famous figureheads... but at the end of the day, you don't have Churches, Sunday morning programming, or community outreach programs that spread your philosophy and doctrine, or the countless number of websites the different organized religions have, and you certainly don't go out of your way to endure yourself to others. You don't even have a centralized doctrine or dogma to speak of, much less an organization to ensure that your philosophy lives on. Not that you would want any of those things, anyway, it would make your belief to much like organized religion. So while you may share a viewpoint with people, your beliefs ultimately wind up being your own. And when you die, those beliefs die with you. This is why atheism has never spread in the way organized religion has, sadly, probably never will.

This is something I somewhat agree with. Atheists are comical in both their blind support of democracy, and in the fact that they are the least reproductive of all 'religious' demographic cohorts. Atheists will one day probably get screwed by the very system they endorse [if it hasn't done so to them and to the rest of humanity already]

If people go on believing in a god for the rest of humanity's existence, I am not bothered by it per-say. However I am bothered in the social, political, and in some cases economic doctrines that the belief in super-human and extra-sensory beings can often times lead to. [This extra-human entity need not be religious, it can also be Aliens, the New world order, The Hegelian Dialectic, or even the conception of "Good Government", past or present]

That said, getting the masses of people to accept certain beliefs does not require a very large group of people. Very often, the direction in which a civilization is taken is due to the work of a handful of philosophers whose ideas are first picked up by what F.A. Hayek Called "Intellectuals" - which were second hand dealers in ideas. These people included journalists, teachers, priests, etc, basically people who aren't *originators* of ideas, but have a fairly wide audience and can disseminate them to the masses. These groups of people provide the undercurrent that shapes what people think about certain things and how they think about them.

A fantastic example of this is socialism. Ask the average man on the street if he's a socialist [especially in the united states] and he'll probably say 'no' [after yelling at you and possibly punching you in the face]. On the other hand, the average man doesn't know what the word socialist actually means, and if you questioned him further you would find that he likely endorses a great deal of socialist policies. [Even *if* he is a republican, by the way]

The vast majority of Americans accept nearly every tenant of Socialism and the ten planks of the communist party [see below]. You don't have to be a "Socialist" to be a socialist. And you don't have to be an atheist to be a secularist.

http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/p lanks.html

Therefore I contend it isn't necessary for people to reject the existence of god per-say, only that people's minds are changed on key issues that encounter the most resistance for primarily religious reasons. I.E. Abortion, Homosexuality, prayer in schools, etc. etc.

That said I do not endorse every cultural and political outlook that is influenced directly or indirectly by atheism or agnosticism. [I would call myself more of an Agnostic in that I don't go around saying that god doesn't exist, only that I do not know if he exists and accept his/her/it's non-existence as a more reasonable default position] For example, I agree with the premise that the nuclear family has a significant role to play in creating a healthy society. I'm no fan of most things that are commonly associated with 'family values' by certain politicians, but I'm also not a fan of taking children away from their parents during their most formative years and leaving them in 18th century prisons to be 'educated', while both parents work full time to keep up with the rising cost of necessities as well as the sacred cows [healthcare, education, taxes]

But I'm not the 'rule' for most atheists.

[AcetheSuperVillain]

For one, I think many atheists see science as a replacement for religion. Since science is passed from generation to generation via public education, and often taught every day, you could say that they're way ahead of the christians. There could well be more scientists than clergy members these days too.

I for one throw my lot with the Aesir and the Buddha, and as such I think the christian belief in heaven is a sugar coated fairy tale with very little biblical evidence, and atheism's oblivion is a cynical self-righteous knee-jerk reaction to it based on a level of science that is ill-equipped to deal with the topic. My beliefs are sort of in the middle.

The Asatru afterlife is not the brightest future, and many believe places like Valhalla and Hel to be metaphoric. According to Buddha, your body and soul are separated and recycled, and since your memories and personality and etc. are mostly coded into your physical brain and DNA, the new body has no recollection of the soul's previous host. Attaining Liberation from this cycle (Nirvana) involves, among other things, the realization that your "self" is a fabrication of perceptions, so you still wouldn't be you afterwards.

If I had to sum up the best way to prepare for death, I'd say enjoy yourself and cross your fingers.

[Jizzlebang]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote:
The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

I'll bite. I don't feel anything. Because it doesn't matter. Make the best of the life you live now, because when you're dead, you're dead and after you're dead I want care either, because I'm dead.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

The reason "we" don't have a "church" is because Atheism rarely comes in an organized form. Since there is no Pope of atheism, there is obviously no doctrine either. The philosophy greatly varies. The reason for this is naturally because atheism is not a religion.

Atheism.
Not religious.
Therefore will not act as one.

As for your claim that atheism will die out; It won't, provided the world follows the path it already is on and becomes more educated. Religion established itself due to the need for explantions for natural phenomena. As more explanations are discovered, religion tries to cope. It can't always, which is why you see a drop in religious zealousy amongst more economically developed nations as well as higher educated people. Atheism won't die, not unless there is a "something up there" which can be proven on other terms than just saying "It says so in this book."

[SolInvictus]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

... or is there?

[lapis]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

Hmm, if you find it odd that atheists can live with themselves even though they don't believe in an afterlife, consider the following (I realise this might at first sound more demeaning than I intend it to be, but stick with me):

There's this guy in a psychiatric ward somewhere who thinks he's Jesus. Sure, he's not perfectly happy now as he's held against his will by a bunch of infidels but he has a lot to look forward to. After all, he's Jesus! After his death, he will be reunited in essence with the Father and he'll get to judge where everyone else goes when they die. "You said I was crazy? That's Hell for you, bee-yatch"

So now I ask you, Proteas, how do you feel knowing that you're not Jesus?

I'm not sure what you're going to answer here, but we'll see.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

I believe that in any society which is urbanised (and hence, most likely, eventually individualised), which has free speech and sufficient levels of education, atheism and agnositicism will naturally come about. Even if due to economic crises and massive upheaval some Christian ayatollah rises who bans all atheist writings and, three hundred years from now, the works of Dawkins and Hitchens are as lost as the teachings of Mani and Simon Magus, then, still, atheism will rise again when societies stabilise and grant the freedom to people to posit the idea that if one can't logically choose between, say, Christianity and Buddhism, that is it then silly to choose anyway --- in that situation, atheism will flow again in the ebb and tide of religiosity.

[Elfer]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

I'd say that "knowing" is the wrong word here, but in the spirit of the topic, it doesn't really bother me. What happens upon death is something that I consider to be both unknowable and completely out of my hands, so I don't worry about it.

To appropriate a metaphor to the purpose, death is like a freight train coming down the tracks. And guess what: It's going to hit you. You can either panic and try to run from it, or you can sit back, crack open a beer, and just let it come.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

No opinion. I don't really give a shit whether or not other people are atheists, because it's not particularly near and dear to my heart. I'd say that in my case, atheism is merely a consequence of skepticism, which I consider more important.

Even for my own children, when I have them, I would teach them to be skeptical and rational, but I won't try to impress atheism upon them. I'd even encourage them if they felt the need to explore religion for themselves. Different strokes for different strokes, as they say.

[camobch0]

I'm accepting of death. Obviously I have that deep-seeded fear of it, and would love to keep living as long as possible (to a certain extent), but I know that it'll just be over forever, so it's much more comforting. Plus, there's no fucking way to know which of the 100000+ religions that we have invented is correct.

[C0rpsezilla]

To be honest, I don't really want to live for forever, at least not in Heaven. If I had to live forever, I would rather be on earth where I can play computer games and do all the nasty ungodly shit I like to do.

[Angry-Hatter]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

To be perfectly honest, it bothers me. I don't want to stop existing. I love life and all the wonders of the human experience. I love learning about our universe and all the mysteries it holds. I love the taste of food and drink. The thought of losing my ability to percieve and enjoy these things brings me great sadness. I have, on occasion, fantasized about obtaining immortality. I am NOT happy that there is nothing after death.

What I have realized, and what I have to remember and remind myself of, is that I am extremely BIASED on this front, because as a human being, I have no concept of anything other than existance as a human being. As a living, breathing human being, I view death as a highly undesireable state of existance, and I care a great deal about avoiding death at all costs. When I eventually do die, I won't care that I was once alive; in fact, I won't be able to care about anything whatsoever, as I will be lacking the functioning sensory organs required for such a thing.

I take some comfort in this notion, but only a little. The fact that I won't miss my life once I'm dead doesn't change the fact that I love life NOW, and that I don't want it to be over. It does motivate me to live my life to it's fullest, and to enjoy every second of it while it lasts.

From the perspective of my biased, human point of view, every second of life is more precious to me than all of eternity without it.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Loaded question. I'm not buying the premise of your question, because if by beliefs, you mean atheism, then if that particular belief "dies with us" (atheists) when we die, then why are there still atheists? It's as if you think that people can't come to the conclusion that supernatural elements do not exist unless someone tells them so. Indeed, by some accounts, the atheist/agnostic/non-religious group is one of the world's fastest growing segments of population. This without any form of major organisation or church trying to recruit members to the belief.

So the reality is rather the opposite of what your question seems to imply.

[highschooldude]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: For quite some time now, I have observed members of this forum in silence. I know more than a fair number of you are atheist and quite vocal about it,

i don't care wheres you nothing now! if your an thest i don't care unless you like young like 18 or youger but it's clear you've made your choice i belive but i sin like a mother fucker so i'll see you in hell and that all i have to say on this one closed done

[Warforger]

Ahuh OP. That's why Atheism is growing in the West? I mean didn't Denmark have like what a 70-something % Atheist population? And in America the teens are becoming more and more atheist. Atheism DOES have a doctrine that spreads it, it's called questioning religion.

[The-universe]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

That's like asking how I feel about the sun rising in the morning. I can welcome it in open arms with a smile on a face and a chip on my shoulder, or I can avoid it as much as humanly possible with fear and disgust. Something that wonders to the back of my mind in the desperate hopes it wont leap out at any moment and plague my thoughts.

Either way, can't do anything about it. I could die tomorrow, or 60 years from now. I don't see much of a point of either feeling bad or good about something that has a greater likelihood of a sun rise. Although my mind does attempt to tell me it's something that should be avoided, hence the reason why one should look both ways.

Quite note; we don't 'know' that there is nothing after death. You can believe in an afterlife and still be an Atheist (so long as that afterlife doesn't involve a god or gods). But for the ones that don't accept an afterlife, usually from observations they hover around an abstract materialistic concept.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Here are my beliefs:
(A)
(B)
(C)
(D)
etc

Someone is probably going to read those and remember them. Perhaps they'll pass it on. Is that certain? No, but your question is similar to sentimental memories. Once you die, so do they. People constantly interact with each other and unless they're totally reclusive from any form of human contact and have no form or ability to keep a record of it, something's going to rub off to someone else. This post is probably going to be remembered by someone. We can't preserve the totality of our beliefs, opinions, knowledge, interests etc. But we may be able to keep a partial amount going for a further generation or two. That is assuming that we're not writing books, taking pictures, making films and almost everything we do in life. Which in a world with instant global communication and ever advancing technology, it happens often.

I wont need my beliefs when I'm dead, and what I believe has probably already been written down anyway.

[camobch0]

At 8/5/11 11:44 AM, Warforger wrote: I mean didn't Denmark have like what a 70-something % Atheist population? And in America the teens are becoming more and more atheist.

Actually, 80% of Denmark citizens are members of the national church.

DId you just pull that out of your ass?

[Warforger]

At 8/5/11 05:46 PM, camobch0 wrote:

At 8/5/11 11:44 AM, Warforger wrote: I mean didn't Denmark have like what a 70-something % Atheist population? And in America the teens are becoming more and more atheist.

Actually, 80% of Denmark citizens are members of the national church.

Did you pull that out of your ass? Because according to wikipedia back in a poll taken 2005 only 31% of the population said they believe in a God. Just "a god" not saying if they're Islamic, Catholic or Protestant.

DId you just pull that out of your ass?

What the fuck? Did I even state it as fact? It was some statistic I read awhile ago so I wasn't exactly what it was.

[Angry-Hatter]

At 8/5/11 05:46 PM, camobch0 wrote:

At 8/5/11 11:44 AM, Warforger wrote: I mean didn't Denmark have like what a 70-something % Atheist population? And in America the teens are becoming more and more atheist.

Actually, 80% of Denmark citizens are members of the national church.

DId you just pull that out of your ass?

And membership in the church has been steadily dropping over the last few decades; 91% in 1984; 85% in 2000; 80% in 2010.

I'm not completely familiar with how enrollment in the church works in Denmark, but if it's anything like it is in Sweden where you were pretty much guaranteed to be enrolled as soon as you were born (up until recently when they made it so that you have to make an active choice to enroll your child), and where you have to wait until you're 18 until you can take steps to leave the church, the fact that membership in the church is still so high is hardly surprising. Norway still enrolls pretty much anyone born in Norway into the church unless the parents make an active choice to avoid it, and leaving the church once you're 18 doesn't have any real practical benefits, so most people just let it be.

I was a member of the Church of Sweden up until I was 20 years old, but I was an agnostic long before that, which goes to show you that membership in a church doesn't automatically make you the least bit religious, especially with how enrollment works in Scandinavia.

[fatape]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote:
The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

I feel apathetic, I mean worrying about death is a waste of time it won't change anything so I never think about it.

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote:
Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Same answer as the first I simply don't care, worrying dose nothing and my beliefs are ultimately unimportant.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

The prospect of just dissappearing scares me, then again, the idea of leaving this Earth in any aspect scares me. I do know that I already have left a mark, and I can only hope that I will have done enough in my time here to ensure that something is better off because of me.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

Couldn't care less. My belief are just that: mine. This is where they exist and where they should stay.

And a side note, I will defend the merits of religion regardles of what I blelieve. I have grown out of the naive view that religion is only a source of negativity.

[Angry-Hatter]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: Which brings me to this nifty little graphic, which I've taken the liberty to update.

<straps on asbestos underwear>

Oh, by the way Pro, I went ahead and updated that graphic with some minor but highly relevant changes that ought to shed some light on the real religion of people on the internet.

[aviewaskewed]

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: You guys have enough fun at my expense misrepresenting what I say in order to piss me off as it is, I'm not about to give you guys another reason to mess with me.

I say this with much respect:

Do you realize how paranoid that makes you sound? Like everybody intentionally misunderstands or misrepresents your arguments all for the sake of screwing with you and pissing you off? You sound sort of like the character Ron Killings plays on RAW every week with this :)

But in this topic, I won't be going on the defensive for being religious. I won't be preaching to any of you, I won't be proselytizing, and I won't be telling you you're wrong for being atheists. This is a topic for you all to discuss your favorite thing in the world to discuss; atheism. Doesn't that sound like fun?

But...we have that already. The "official" theism vs. atheism thread has been a wonderful catch all for people to discuss atheism and what it does and doesn't mean, and theists to come out with their stuff. Ideally it would foster understanding...but since this is the internet, it just gives us a catch all spot for the endlessly regurgitated arguments.

The first question is simply this; how do you feel knowing that after death, there is nothing?

I think that's the wrong question. You presume that all atheists are making an equal claim to knowledge of after death. They don't. Theists do, in the respect that they are iron clad that whatever their particular belief system teaches them will surely, 100% happen. But I've seen many atheists here say "base on the evidence, I see no reason to believe in an afterlife" that's a lot different then "I know there's no afterlife, it's a fairy tale" though we certainly have some atheists doing that.

This is where the issue of "mortality" in the topic title comes into play. In spite of the moral intellectual superiority people will demonstrate over each other, we all have one thing in common; we all die. If you're lucky, you die when you least expect it, long before you die a slow lingering death in a nursing home sitting in your own waste barely able to remember your own name.

Someone was in a cheery mood when he posted this :)

Or you commit suicide, either way, we all die. But I'm curious to see how you deal with the idea of death and the lack of a hereafter.

I'm agnostic I'd say for the most part personally. I have a belief that SOMETHING goes on. A soul? Dunno. Simple electric energy? Maybe. Some form of intelligence? Based on some anecdotal and personal experience? Yeah. Of course, I could be wrong and there is nothing. That's sort of my whole point, this topic isn't fair, because you've presumed a certain definition for atheism and all your questions filter from that definition.

Second question; how do you feel, knowing that after you die, your beliefs die with you?

The same way as anybody else who has a shared belief about the afterlife does when they die I imagine?

Now, this question may confuse a few of you at first, but I think we can all agree that atheists are far from evangelical in their efforts to spread their philosophy.

I think it's a fair point.

Oh, you have countless websites dedicated to the subject, you come on forums like this and frequently discuss the subject, you even have youtube channels and a couple of famous figureheads... but at the end of the day, you don't have Churches, Sunday morning programming, or community outreach programs that spread your philosophy and doctrine, or the countless number of websites the different organized religions have, and you certainly don't go out of your way to endure yourself to others.

True, you sort of need a message to spread to do that. Being the opposite, or the counter point to a message...isn't exactly a message really.

You don't even have a centralized doctrine or dogma to speak of, much less an organization to ensure that your philosophy lives on.

This is true, but considering that really, anyone who simply rejects theism is by definition an atheist, what about it needs to be organized? This smells like one of those deceptive efforts to equate atheism and theism together, like they're just different degrees of the same thing.

Not that you would want any of those things, anyway, it would make your belief to much like organized religion.

Is atheism really a belief though? I mean, it always seemed to me to be defined by a lack of belief. There are few people I know who are "active" in their atheism. It's not something you have to work at, the way you have to work at being "good" in a religion.

So while you may share a viewpoint with people, your beliefs ultimately wind up being your own.

This happens to everybody, not just atheists. Unless you want to assume that all theists think exactly the same way. Or are we just confining this to atheism? Even if we just confine it to this one non-belief, it's still the same as what happens to theists. It amounts to the same thing: one less person with that set of thoughts and opinions in the world. Probably going to be untold scores more that take their place in holding similar thoughts and opinions.

This is why atheism has never spread in the way organized religion has, sadly, probably never will.

No, the reason it hasn't is because unlike organized religion it's not...well...organized. That and organized religion is an old hand at trying to shout down and forcibly squash any ideas that threaten it, or that it flat out doesn't like. While there are some very very vocal atheists, the problem is a lack of belief can never be organized and harnessed the way a belief can.

Which brings me to this nifty little graphic, which I've taken the liberty to update.

So...you decide to end this by basically just seeming to flat out say "hi, I'm just here to be a dick to atheists, but my graphic is sort of funny"?

[Warforger]

At 8/5/11 11:45 PM, Angry-Hatter wrote:

At 8/3/11 10:15 PM, Proteas wrote: Which brings me to this nifty little graphic, which I've taken the liberty to update.

<straps on asbestos underwear>

Oh, by the way Pro, I went ahead and updated that graphic with some minor but highly relevant changes that ought to shed some light on the real religion of people on the internet.

Yah I thought it was a joke, because google trends only notes if you just searched that specific word, I mean if say you put Richard Dawkins or one of his book titles then yah you'll probably find alot more traffic. It's the same with porn because people don't look up "porn" often times and just put in what they're looking for, or to a pornsite, which isn't included in google trends "porn".

[Proteas]

At 8/6/11 02:34 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Do you realize how paranoid that makes you sound?

Yeah, I'm aware of how paranoid it makes me sound. But I have my reasons for being paranoid, especially when folks like Lapis expect me to give them an honest response.

That's sort of my whole point, this topic isn't fair, because you've presumed a certain definition for atheism and all your questions filter from that definition.

My definition of atheism is based simply on the one posited on these forums the most often; the rejection of all things religious and lacking physical proof. If you reject the concept of a heaven or an afterlife, then it is not without reason to believe that the average atheist also does not believe in a soul.

This is true, but considering that really, anyone who simply rejects theism is by definition an atheist, what about it needs to be organized? This smells like one of those deceptive efforts to equate atheism and theism together, like they're just different degrees of the same thing.

On the contrary. I was just showing how due to the disorganized and disparate nature of atheism as it stands today, a concerted effort to convert the general populace at large to atheism could never happen.

Is atheism really a belief though?

It warrants ACLU protection, does it not?

This happens to everybody, not just atheists. Unless you want to assume that all theists think exactly the same way. Or are we just confining this to atheism? Even if we just confine it to this one non-belief, it's still the same as what happens to theists. It amounts to the same thing: one less person with that set of thoughts and opinions in the world. Probably going to be untold scores more that take their place in holding similar thoughts and opinions.

Fair point.

So...you decide to end this by basically just seeming to flat out say "hi, I'm just here to be a dick to atheists, but my graphic is sort of funny"?

Nope, just showing how much of an interest mainstream society takes in atheism. The original picture was from motifake.

And just to be fair....

[aviewaskewed]

At 8/7/11 12:10 AM, Proteas wrote: Yeah, I'm aware of how paranoid it makes me sound. But I have my reasons for being paranoid, especially when folks like Lapis expect me to give them an honest response.

I'm just saying, opening a thread with paranoia...especially a thread where you're going to take passive swipes at a segment of the BBS? Doesn't seem very advisable to me.

My definition of atheism is based simply on the one posited on these forums the most often; the rejection of all things religious and lacking physical proof. If you reject the concept of a heaven or an afterlife, then it is not without reason to believe that the average atheist also does not believe in a soul.

Well, yeah, they wouldn't. Of course there's this whole assumption your loaded questions seem to posit that this may somehow give them some sort of grief or pause. Like somehow you and everybody else with some kind of religion is "better".

On the contrary. I was just showing how due to the disorganized and disparate nature of atheism as it stands today, a concerted effort to convert the general populace at large to atheism could never happen.

Ok...and who exactly is trying to do that? I mean, all the atheists I've seen speak, or that I've personally spoken to, just tend to speak about their ideas, or defend it. It's not so much an issue where they're trying to convert anybody. They pretty much accept that if somebody isn't already an atheist, they aren't going to be just because somebody tries to make them so. Seems to me that's the sort of conclusion or choice an individual is going to make for themselves.

It warrants ACLU protection, does it not?

I don't know honestly, does it? I'm just saying for me personally a lack of belief doesn't necessarily satisfy as a belief. But I guess those atheists who very actively say "There is no God or supernatural beings" vs. "I see no evidence of God or supernatural beings, so I don't believe in them". One is an assertion of belief, another is an explanation for a lack of such. That's kind of my point. You can't lump all atheists into the same umbrella and say they all believe the same things, sort of like you can't do it for Jews, Muslims, or Christians. They may have a common creed, but that doesn't mean they can all be lumped together as believing and espousing exactly the same things.

Fair point.

Thank you.

Nope, just showing how much of an interest mainstream society takes in atheism. The original picture was from motifake.

Ok, and what does that do other then, again say "hi, I'm here to be a dick to atheists because I assume their smug and need to be knocked off their perch"? I still fail to see what this accomplishes other then being a very clever bit of trolling on atheists.

[The-universe]

At 8/7/11 12:10 AM, Proteas wrote: My definition of atheism is based simply on the one posited on these forums the most often; the rejection of all things religious and lacking physical proof. If you reject the concept of a heaven or an afterlife, then it is not without reason to believe that the average atheist also does not believe in a soul.

Rejection of everything that doesn't have physical evidence is not a requirement of atheism. There is a diversity of reason why one becomes an atheist.

You can happily and very easily believe in ghosts, aliens, magic, monsters etc and still be an Atheist.

[Blackhole12]

People don't remember you for your religion, people remember you for what you did.

[morefngdbs]

As someone who has often been ?accused ? or labeled ? an atheist here on this site. I'm actually not an atheist, nor am I religious. I have to agree with Elfers comment where, when your dead...how can you 'know' anything ?

While I like many others would like to live here for as long as possible, there is one thing & one thing only that would cause me to want to check out early & that would be quality of life.

If I'm a vegetable, lying in my own filth until someone comes in & takes care of me...I hope that someone will care enough about me to pull the plug as it were.

After all none of us know, or have any real idea, what comes after the body dies. Is the spirit that all of us seem to have an actual entity ?
Are we simply a biological construct, and once that breaks down are we gone ? & that's it ?

Who knows, but it IMO sure does help explain why religions exist & why so many people are willing to enslave themselves in life, for a chance ,a faint unprovable & often assinign belief that " I'm going to heaven when I die" ! !

I suppose the one constant that we can take comfort (or fear ) in, is that some day each & every one of us will find the answer.

But will we, at that time, remember the question ~:)

[SolInvictus]

At 8/7/11 12:10 AM, Proteas wrote: My definition of atheism is based simply on the one posited on these forums the most often; the rejection of all things religious and lacking physical proof.

so in itself, this isn't a thread about atheism, but what this board purports as atheist beliefs (or the manner in which most self-identified atheists define their beliefs here).
while that definition does work for most people here, what about the nutbars who identify as atheists but love their crazy? (i.e. JordanD, who doesn't believe in God(s) but does believe there's an afterlife and that man can become God... and a lot about vibrations).

or are we differentiating between the arrogant and the crazy?