So what has perfect got to do with it ?

If you're a good person, respect others & yourself...why does it matter whether you're perfect or not ?

Also I've seen that which others have decided In their opinion was perfect.
In mine it wasn't.
So what, if what I think is perfect ,isn't what you think is perfect ????
How does that make any difference in the grand sceme of the Universe ?

As long as you're happy , why does what someone else think matter & why would you really give a shit ?

At 8/31/11 06:46 PM, morefngdbs wrote: So what has perfect got to do with it ?

Perfect only has as much to do with this discussion, in so much as the amount that people impute our failings and faults to that of religion, and not humanity itself.

At 8/31/11 09:26 AM, BanglaBoy96 wrote: If we HAD NO free will, we'd be bitching about god being so bossy.

would we really?

At 8/31/11 10:43 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 8/31/11 09:58 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: 1. How does being human hold us back?

We, as humans, are flawed and imperfect. All of the faults we place upon religion exist only because it is the humans that make up the religion that are flawed, not the religion itself.

Hum... Religion is a concept created by humans, it is flawed by it's nature and what it represents, not because it was created by us, there are also degrees of flawedness in concepts, that are all created by us therefore this finishes to prove my point that the flaw does not come from the fact we created that concept but the nature of the concept itself. Actually arguing anything different would be extremely dumb.

2. Do you actually believe in a god when saying that statement.

Do I have to?

Am I pointing a gun to your head and threatening your life if you don't? So no, you don't have to.

At 8/31/11 10:44 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 8/31/11 09:58 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

At 8/31/11 09:54 AM, Camarohusky wrote: God doesn't hold us back. Being human does.

1. How does being human hold us back?

limited senses, perception, cognition; we're pretty cool, but we're not perfect... yet (its mother'ucking cyborg time!).

Well no shit sherlock, perfection is a concept that does not exist in reality. Of course we have limitations, everything has limitations, but does our nature hold us back? Maybe it does but it's pointless to state it because the nature of every being holds them back by this definition.

At 8/31/11 09:38 PM, Iron-Hampster wrote:

At 8/31/11 09:26 AM, BanglaBoy96 wrote: If we HAD NO free will, we'd be bitching about god being so bossy.

would we really?

Holy fucking shit, man you totally destroyed his dumb point with 3 words, and it's hilarious because I didnt think about it when I read it and felt I should and it's funny because what you said is so obviously true.

At 8/31/11 11:34 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Well no shit sherlock, perfection is a concept that does not exist in reality.

it was intended to be a simple figure of speech, simply stating we're awesome but limited. though given the subject of the thread, perfection (or the supposed lack thereof) seems relevant in discussing whether our "creator/sustainer" limits us.
not to mention our many limitations are identifiable and something we seek to overcome in fields other than religion.

...our spiritual limitations are a little less clear.

At 9/1/11 12:36 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 8/31/11 11:34 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Well no shit sherlock, perfection is a concept that does not exist in reality.

it was intended to be a simple figure of speech, simply stating we're awesome but limited.

Sure but the fact we are limited is painfully obvious and like you just agreed, isn,t a bad thing so why come up with it in the first place?

though given the subject of the thread, perfection (or the supposed lack thereof) seems relevant in discussing whether our "creator/sustainer" limits us.

«this thread isnt about "does god hold us back" but rather "does the belief in a god holds us back. God cannot hold us back himself because he doesn't exist, however belief in him sustain other ass backwards beliefs that really make some people act like degenerates.

not to mention our many limitations are identifiable and something we seek to overcome in fields other than religion.

Not sure where you are going here.

...our spiritual limitations are a little less clear.

Once again, not sure what you mean by that.

Mount of improbability anyone?

At 9/1/11 03:06 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: ...however belief in him sustain other ass backwards beliefs that really make some people act like degenerates.

precisely, and the idea of being perfect/god-like is something addressed by many religions; most say we aren't "perfect" because of god, nor should we seek to be "gods." plenty of advances have been protested by people thinking "if god wanted us to do [x] he would have made us with [y]."

not to mention our many limitations are identifiable and something we seek to overcome in fields other than religion.

Not sure where you are going here.

science is entirely based on the expansion of our perception beyond natural human limits.

At 8/31/11 11:34 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Hum... Religion is a concept created by humans, it is flawed by it's nature and what it represents, not because it was created by us, there are also degrees of flawedness in concepts, that are all created by us therefore this finishes to prove my point that the flaw does not come from the fact we created that concept but the nature of the concept itself. Actually arguing anything different would be extremely dumb.

Let's translate here:

Religion is not flawed because of us. But these flaws are because of us. Therefore the flaws that we flawdely think or flawed, are just a llawed product of our flawed thinking about flaws and the flawed state of being flawed. If you think otherwise yer a P00pteard.

How's about you rewrite this meaningless jumble into a single sentence.

And if you are trying to say that religion is flawed because it is religion and not because man is flawed just say so, so we can move forward. Then provide examples.

People can misinterpret the Word of God as a right to be disgusting because Christ Jesus will forgive them, along with taking the passage that states "take up your cross and follow Him" as an instruction to wear a cross necklace and a t-shirt from a mega-church that promotes Christian Militarism rather than telling us to sacrifice ourselves for others and worship Jesus. It's not God that is holding us back, but people. People are fucking idiots.

At 9/2/11 11:12 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 8/31/11 11:34 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Hum... Religion is a concept created by humans, it is flawed by it's nature and what it represents, not because it was created by us, there are also degrees of flawedness in concepts, that are all created by us therefore this finishes to prove my point that the flaw does not come from the fact we created that concept but the nature of the concept itself. Actually arguing anything different would be extremely dumb.

Let's translate here:

Religion is not flawed because of us. But these flaws are because of us. Therefore the flaws that we flawdely think or flawed, are just a llawed product of our flawed thinking about flaws and the flawed state of being flawed. If you think otherwise yer a P00pteard.

How's about you rewrite this meaningless jumble into a single sentence.

And if you are trying to say that religion is flawed because it is religion and not because man is flawed just say so, so we can move forward. Then provide examples.

Okay once again I am not sure if I get your point, but if you say that religion is flawed because men are flawed, and the reason that is is because men made it up (religion that is) then we both agree.

Also SolInvictus I'm pretty sure we in fact agree about that matter.

At 9/2/11 11:45 PM, KillerClam wrote: People can misinterpret the Word of God as a right to be disgusting because Christ Jesus will forgive them,

This sort of layman's religion has been battled in all religions for thousands of years.

This sort of religion, the repent and you will be saved regardless, was made for the peasants because thye did not have the resources to live a fully monastic life devoted to religion. It has been interpreted (wrongfully so) to mean that you can do as much bad as possible and then repent and be OK, whereas it was really meant to allow people to enter their respective afterlife without having to devote their life to that of religion (i.e. being a monk, nun, and alike).

At 9/3/11 04:18 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: Okay once again I am not sure if I get your point, but if you say that religion is flawed because men are flawed, and the reason that is is because men made it up (religion that is) then we both agree.

Yes, but I take it one step further. When people attack religion for holding us back, I counter by saying religion does not hold us back, it is only us humans that do it. Religion, being created by humans, provides nothing but a conduit for our good and evil. Religion doesn't do anything bad, the humans that exploiut it do.

At 9/3/11 10:35 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 9/3/11 04:18 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: Okay once again I am not sure if I get your point, but if you say that religion is flawed because men are flawed, and the reason that is is because men made it up (religion that is) then we both agree.

Yes, but I take it one step further. When people attack religion for holding us back, I counter by saying religion does not hold us back, it is only us humans that do it. Religion, being created by humans, provides nothing but a conduit for our good and evil. Religion doesn't do anything bad, the humans that exploiut it do.

Exept religion does hold us back by crippling people's minds, it is a concept created by humans so yes you could say it is humans that hold themselves back but then you are arguing definitions and not facts. You are also removing meaning to the issue and just adding confusion.

At 9/3/11 07:35 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Exept religion does hold us back by crippling people's minds

Religion doesn't cripple minds any more than any other social acitivty does. Show me specific examples of exactly how reoligion cripples minds. When you do that guess what you will have done? You will have created a list of everything wrong with humans.

To say that religion cripples people's minds more than any other social activity is just plain stupid.

You are also removing meaning to the issue and just adding confusion.

No, I am saying that God does not hold people back as it is US that holds us back.

At 9/3/11 10:19 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 9/3/11 07:35 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Exept religion does hold us back by crippling people's minds

Religion doesn't cripple minds any more than any other social acitivty does.

You would be wrong here.

Show me specific examples of exactly how reoligion cripples minds. When you do that guess what you will have done? You will have created a list of everything wrong with humans.

Challenge accepted: It pollutes people's moral compass and makes it easier for them to accept unforgivable things and make them acceptable on the mere flawed basis that morals come from god therefore everything god says to do is moral.
It corrupts the very meaning of morality because when you have rleigion based views why do you help people? Is it, you know, because they are suffering and it is helpful to them to help them or because you fear this all seeing god that might send you to hell?
And most importantly it is an ideology that strongly supports people shutting down their brains and not to show critical thinking and just accept anything trough "faith" which they pretend is a virtue.

Now is that a list of what is wrong with people? No it's a list of what is wrong with religion, and please don,t use the cop out answer of: "Well these are actions done by humans so its humans herp a derp" Of course every action good or bad is done by humans but that's irrelevant to the issue, the point is that religion "promotes" bad ideologies and behavior (while pretending they are good) that accentuate bad behavior. Which is what "Religion holds us back" means.

To say that religion cripples people's minds more than any other social activity is just plain stupid.

It's just plain accurate. Compare a secular group like a bunch of nerds playing DnD and the westboro baptist church, only one of them goes out to protest dead soldiers and hates "fags" can you guess which one it is?

At 9/4/11 03:50 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

At 9/3/11 10:19 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

It pollutes people's moral compass and makes it easier for them to accept unforgivable things and make them acceptable on the mere flawed basis that morals come from god therefore everything god says to do is moral.

This is the conduit idea. However in the end, it is the people that LET themselves twist their own morality, the religion only provides a vehicle through which they can do it.

It corrupts the very meaning of morality because when you have rleigion based views why do you help people? Is it, you know, because they are suffering and it is helpful to them to help them or because you fear this all seeing god that might send you to hell?

And you think religion changes any of that? There are two perspectives on this. First religion or no, a person's motivation for helping others would be the same regardless. They would either help out of compassion or help out of fear of some possible consequences. Second, you argument seems to attack the means ignoring the end. If there were no consequences to being indifferent there would be a good few people who would never help out others. Is that truly better? Doesn't religion actually SOLVE a problem here and move people forward by creating a punishgment for things that would otherwise go unpunished?

And most importantly it is an ideology that strongly supports people shutting down their brains and not to show critical thinking and just accept anything trough "faith" which they pretend is a virtue.

Nope. People shut down their brains for many reasons and religion isn't one of them. I have meet extremely intelligent, open, and mentally flexible religious people, while on the other hand meeting the most closed minded, idiotic atheists. The person closes their mind. They do it for their own reaosn, which in a few cases may be a result of religion (countered by those who close it because of a lack of religion) but it in no way asks, directs, or commands people to close their minds. Do remember the best schoilarhsip of the pre-enlightenment period was by the devoutly religious.

the point is that religion "promotes" bad ideologies and behavior

Show me examples of bad behavior that are actually promoted by religion. Cases where good people turn bad just because of religion.

It's just plain accurate. Compare a secular group like a bunch of nerds playing DnD and the westboro baptist church, only one of them goes out to protest dead soldiers and hates "fags" can you guess which one it is?

If the DnD players had the irrational hate, the motivation, and the lack of social tact as the Westboro Church, then you wouldhave the exact same thing. Notice how these three things are all personality traits and not religion?

Your argument is akin to saying that music, movies, and video games cause violence.

The centre of the Earth is inhabited by triple cunted space hookers from the planet "Clunge". This is fact as per my religions teachings, I preach this to others using my religous text as evidence. The fact that nobody has disproven my claim means it must be true. (Even if someone did provide evidence that disproved this I would simply ignore it on the basis of my faith in the planet clunge and its lucious multiple cunted peoples.)

This logic will never hold me back at all!

At 9/4/11 11:12 AM, Camarohusky wrote: This is the conduit idea. However in the end, it is the people that LET themselves twist their own morality, the religion only provides a vehicle through which they can do it.

Yes, I am sure it is a conscious decision people take, "humm should I have my ideals twisted by religion today? I guess yes."

People are affected by their surroundings, it seems you do not graps that concept yet, things can affect you and your judgement.

For example, why did man X kill his entire family? let's say he was psychotic and stopped taking his medication. THat would be why he did it but you would say: NO IT'S BECAUSE HES HUMAN DON'T BLAME HIS MENTAL ILLNESS FOR HIS HUMANITY

Why did man Y have sex with his secretary even tough he is married? Is it because he is human? No it's because of other factors affecting his surroundings, he might have been drunk, and the secretary is probably also very hot etc.

The same goes for religion, it affects people's judgement, it's not something they conciously decide to do, it changes their ideals, insert false ideas about the world most often since their youngest age.

And you think religion changes any of that? There are two perspectives on this. First religion or no, a person's motivation for helping others would be the same regardless. They would either help out of compassion or help out of fear of some possible consequences.

How so? You bring stuff up but don,t explain it, you need to explain why what you say is right otherweise it has no value.

Second, you argument seems to attack the means ignoring the end. If there were no consequences to being indifferent there would be a good few people who would never help out others. Is that truly better?

People do not need an invisible big brother in the sky to do good things, look at the crime rates in secular countries.

Doesn't religion actually SOLVE a problem here and move people forward by creating a punishgment for things that would otherwise go unpunished?

It's still a lie in the end. Also it's often the opposite, while secular or atheists have to deal with the consequences of their actions, theists can usually pray and then their sin is immediately forgiven, so it's not really their fault anymore.

Nope. People shut down their brains for many reasons and religion isn't one of them.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH HAHA OH WOW HE... Pbfftrbft HAHAHAH

Okay you can ignore this last part as it has no real argumentative value but seriously, this is a ridiculous claim.

I have meet extremely intelligent, open, and mentally flexible religious people,

Yes, there are intelligent people among religious people I never said it was not the case, religion shuts down their brains but often only about religion and issues related.

while on the other hand meeting the most closed minded, idiotic atheists.

Once again, there are both kind of people in both camps, does not change the fact religion is a breeding ground for close mindedness.

The person closes their mind. They do it for their own reaosn, which in a few cases may be a result of religion (countered by those who close it because of a lack of religion)

Okay, who EVER closes their mind BECAUSE of a lack of religion? It's possible some people who are atheists can be close-minded, but how can atheism, which often comes bundled with skepticism, how can it close people's minds?

but it in no way asks, directs, or commands people to close their minds. Do remember the best schoilarhsip of the pre-enlightenment period was by the devoutly religious.

Point which is moot because they were just studying one book they tought full of wisdom but that in reality is full of the opposite. Then science arrived and it actually helped humanity.

Show me examples of bad behavior that are actually promoted by religion. Cases where good people turn bad just because of religion.

Sure, let me start with an extreme example: September 11.
Also it is not quite accurate to say they turn "bad", because these people still think they are doing a good thing, the result however is bad, but it is because religion pollutes their moral compass, do you think these hijackers would have been in that plane without islam?

I could also mention Hell HOuses, where fundies bring their children to be scared of hell etc.

It's just plain accurate. Compare a secular group like a bunch of nerds playing DnD and the westboro baptist church, only one of them goes out to protest dead soldiers and hates "fags" can you guess which one it is?

If the DnD players had the irrational hate, the motivation, and the lack of social tact as the Westboro Church, then you wouldhave the exact same thing. Notice how these three things are all personality traits and not religion?

Yes if the DnD players, and here we are talking the great majority dnd players not just this particular group and if there was a link between the game and the hate then yes I would, because the reason why I am bashing religion is because of the bad things it does, not because it's just religion. And no, being hateful is not a "personality trait" the right word would be "behavior". A Behavior which I am saying is nursed by religion, not exclusively religion, but religion still nurses it alot.

Your argument is akin to saying that music, movies, and video games cause violence.

It's not, because as opposed to music, movies and videogames, there is actual correlation with religion and the bad acts performed by religious people because of religion.

Does being psychotic have a chance to cause people to commit violent crimes? You bet your ass it does. It is possible for some things to influence people both in good or bad ways denying is just plain stupid.

At 9/5/11 03:04 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: It's not, because as opposed to music, movies and videogames, there is actual correlation with religion and the bad acts performed by religious people because of religion.

Really, and those who have claimed to have been mimicing or responding to media, such as songs, movies, TV, or videogames aren't proof?

Does being psychotic have a chance to cause people to commit violent crimes? You bet your ass it does. It is possible for some things to influence people both in good or bad ways denying is just plain stupid.

Religion does have influence, but it does not cause people to be bad. The peopel are already broken and just use religion to endorse their crazy. Atheists do the same thing with different traits you know.

At 9/5/11 10:48 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 9/5/11 03:04 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: It's not, because as opposed to music, movies and videogames, there is actual correlation with religion and the bad acts performed by religious people because of religion.

Really, and those who have claimed to have been mimicing or responding to media, such as songs, movies, TV, or videogames aren't proof?

No, what people claim is not evidence.

Does being psychotic have a chance to cause people to commit violent crimes? You bet your ass it does. It is possible for some things to influence people both in good or bad ways denying is just plain stupid.

Religion does have influence, but it does not cause people to be bad.

Let me translate what you just said: "Religion has an influence but it doesn't."
It either has an influence or it doesn't.
And LIKE I ALREADY SAID COUNTLESS TIMES, religion does not make people become bad, it pollutes their moral compass so THEY DO BAD THINGS it's different because from their point of view THEY DO MORAL THINGS. It feeds them erroneous information which affects their behavior.

The peopel are already broken and just use religion to endorse their crazy. Atheists do the same thing with different traits you know.

No they don't. Give me some examples. Some people might use religion as an excuse for their evil ways but most of the time it makes good people that think they do good things do bad things. As for atheists, I will say it now, atheism did not do what you claim it does, bring me some examples, I'm waiting.

At 9/5/11 01:31 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

At 9/5/11 10:48 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Religion does have influence, but it does not cause people to be bad.

Let me translate what you just said: "Religion has an influence but it doesn't."
It either has an influence or it doesn't.

I think what he was trying to say is that religion has an influence in that it inspires people to do bad or good things but a person most likely does those good or bad things because that's what they would have done regardless of whether or not they were religious.

At 9/5/11 07:18 PM, Ericho wrote:

At 9/5/11 01:31 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

At 9/5/11 10:48 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Religion does have influence, but it does not cause people to be bad.

Let me translate what you just said: "Religion has an influence but it doesn't."
It either has an influence or it doesn't.

I think what he was trying to say is that religion has an influence in that it inspires people to do bad or good things but a person most likely does those good or bad things because that's what they would have done regardless of whether or not they were religious.

Yes sometimes people do bad thing regardless of their religion and because of other factors,doesn't change the fact religion is a great cause in making people do bad things. His point is moot.

At 9/5/11 01:31 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: No, what people claim is not evidence.

Then what is your "evidence" of people doing bad things because of religion? Is it not claimed there too?

Let me translate what you just said: "Religion has an influence but it doesn't."
It either has an influence or it doesn't.

It only had influence in that it provides people who are already geared toward bad a route and venue to practice that bad. Religion is a thing of legitimacy. Bad people love things like this because they can twist things into easily legitimizing their bad acts.

And LIKE I ALREADY SAID COUNTLESS TIMES, religion does not make people become bad, it pollutes their moral compass so THEY DO BAD THINGS it's different because from their point of view THEY DO MORAL THINGS. It feeds them erroneous information which affects their behavior.

In other words you're agreeing with me, in saying that in fact religion does little but provide a vehicle for the evil and broken to justify their evil and broken/misled deeds. There are numerous other ways that people can legitimize their bad deeds, but due to the vagueries and depth of religion, and the emotional strength of it, there is a great deal to choose from that they can intentionally misquote or twist to legitimize their bad acts. In the end the bad is not the religion, but the person.

Think of religion as a knife, or a rifle, or a car. When in the right hands it can greatly increase productivity, but in the wrong hands it can be dangerous. In the end religion is nothing but a tool to use toward whatever end, good or bad, that the believer wants.

No they don't. Give me some examples. Some people might use religion as an excuse for their evil ways but most of the time it makes good people that think they do good things do bad things. As for atheists, I will say it now, atheism did not do what you claim it does, bring me some examples, I'm waiting.

Al Qaeda is a pretty good example. These people are looking for a reason to kill and murder and belong through doing bad things. It is no different than your average street gang. The fact that the 'gang' affiliates itself with Islam doesn't make Islam bad.

Atheism is a haven for pride and arrogance. Therefore under your logic, Atheism is flawed because it supports a class based worldview and the inherent inferiority of others. It isn't the people who are arrognt, it's the belief. According to you.

I was too lazy to read 5 pages of what other people said, here's my 2 cents on the issue.

Yes I do believe a 'god' holds us back.
Religion puts on us a huge set of rules not linked to rational reasoning, instead of seeing how an issue affects us and the world, we look at the bible (or some other holy book) say "God says we do this" and obey.

To me religion is a bit like a gun, it may not be in essence an evil thing, but it gets used for so much evil that we would be better of without* it.

*Or at least make it a much more minor part of society

- Lisan

At 9/5/11 11:44 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Then what is your "evidence" of people doing bad things because of religion? Is it not claimed there too?

I mentionned in a previous post the hijacking of 9/11 and hell houses. I could also add the fact most religious people frown on gay people enough to deny them rights and many other examples.

It only had influence in that it provides people who are already geared toward bad a route and venue to practice that bad. Religion is a thing of legitimacy. Bad people love things like this because they can twist things into easily legitimizing their bad acts.

Yes and that is the big danger of religion, it can also let people make absurd claims and back them with religion or make good people think what is written in the bible makes sense and then do bad things, like for example deny gay people the right to marry and think they are doing a good thing when they aren't.

In other words you're agreeing with me, in saying that in fact religion does little but provide a vehicle for the evil and broken to justify their evil and broken/misled deeds.

This PLUS the fact it can make good people do bad acts and think they are justified, and those people will think they are acting for good.

There are numerous other ways that people can legitimize their bad deeds, but due to the vagueries and depth of religion, and the emotional strength of it, there is a great deal to choose from that they can intentionally misquote or twist to legitimize their bad acts. In the end the bad is not the religion, but the person.

You just named at least 2 arguments showing how religion can affect people, then you jumped to the wrong conclusion. People do not affect religion, religion affects people, or course the base acts are commited by people, religion is an ideology and without people driving it it cannot harm anybody, but the fact this ideology exists and affect these people in way that makes them do bad things is solid proof that religion holds us back by protecting such ideals. I feel we are arguing definition, and I can say the way I put it is better because it removes confusion. You could say all bad actions humans do is made by humans, and that would be entirely true, but extremely redundant and it does not help us IN ANY WAY to identify the problem and solve it, DO YOU UNDERSTAND that?

Think of religion as a knife, or a rifle, or a car. When in the right hands it can greatly increase productivity, but in the wrong hands it can be dangerous. In the end religion is nothing but a tool to use toward whatever end, good or bad, that the believer wants.

A knife does not come with a set of ideologies that are said to be promoted by an ultimate being, I know this argument and I mostly agree with it but there is a difference. Let's say I have this religion let's call it tekticism for no reason, and in the book it teaches and is backed by scripture that every second son should be blinded by removing his eyes right after he is born,. You can see this is immoral and you can see ti's not just a tool like a knife.

No they don't. Give me some examples. Some people might use religion as an excuse for their evil ways but most of the time it makes good people that think they do good things do bad things. As for atheists, I will say it now, atheism did not do what you claim it does, bring me some examples, I'm waiting.

Al Qaeda is a pretty good example.

No it's not, they are an islamist group, not an Atheist group.

These people are looking for a reason to kill and murder and belong through doing bad things. It is no different than your average street gang. The fact that the 'gang' affiliates itself with Islam doesn't make Islam bad.

Exept they are only following what their book says, kill orconvert all infidels, they are driven by this ideology.

Atheism is a haven for pride and arrogance.

It's not. Atheism just means you do not believe in god, which given the evidence we have on any god (none) is not an irrationnal stance. And if you are talking about people who tend to lok at evidence before making claims, how is that arrogant AT ALL?

Therefore under your logic, Atheism is flawed because it supports a class based worldview

No it doesn't Atheism is just a claim in response to theism saying that since there is no good evidence for god it is more reasonable to dismiss it.

and the inherent inferiority of others.

Where do you even get that?

It isn't the people who are arrognt, it's the belief. According to you.

In some ways yes, some beloefs are just fucking retarded and have no place in a modern society.

I'm not going to respond to every quote, because you're falling into a simple pattern here.

"A lot of religious people do bad things, so religion is bad.
But when a lot of Atheists are unflappingly arrogant and rude, you claim it has nothing to do with Atheism."

Which is it? Does a high percentage of trait reflect upon the belief or not?

"People do bad things because a miniscule part of the religion could have hinted them on. That religion is at fault.
Someone beats up a hooker and shoots at the cops because they were egged on by a video game. That video game is not responsible."

Which is it? Does a response to a suggestion, however weak reflect upon that which suggested it?

You cannot have it both ways. Either religion, media, and atheism put bad ideas into people, or people realize their bad idea through these things.

At 9/6/11 11:43 PM, Camarohusky wrote: I'm not going to respond to every quote, because you're falling into a simple pattern here.

Sure whatever.

"A lot of religious people do bad things, so religion is bad.

Strawman, that is not what I am saying at all have you been reading what I posted? I said that rel-... you know what, I fucking stated my point a billion times already and if you didn,t get it then you probably won,t get it now.

But when a lot of Atheists are unflappingly arrogant and rude, you claim it has nothing to do with Atheism."

Because it doesn't. And this isn,t a double standard, Atheism is a position in response to theism soubting there is a god, it cannot be tied to people's arrogance. You need to understand that with different things and ideologies, some have correlation with behavior and some do not, is it that hard to comprehend? I even explained that before too!

Which is it? Does a high percentage of trait reflect upon the belief or not?

IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION!

"People do bad things because a miniscule part of the religion could have hinted them on. That religion is at fault.
Someone beats up a hooker and shoots at the cops because they were egged on by a video game. That video game is not responsible."

Which is it? Does a response to a suggestion, however weak reflect upon that which suggested it?

You cannot have it both ways. Either religion, media, and atheism put bad ideas into people, or people realize their bad idea through these things.

People are influenced by their surroundings and their beliefs, I already explained why religion does and I just told you why it cannot apply to atheism in this case, and yes media and religion influence people.

Now please don,t bother replying unless you actually understand the point you are trying to oh so blindly refute.

At 9/7/11 04:33 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: Strawman, that is not what I am saying at all have you been reading what I posted? I said that rel-... you know what, I fucking stated my point a billion times already and if you didn,t get it then you probably won,t get it now.

Yeah, you stated that because a lot of religious people don't like gay people, that it is the religion that is bad.

Because it doesn't. And this isn,t a double standard, Atheism is a position in response to theism soubting there is a god, it cannot be tied to people's arrogance. You need to understand that with different things and ideologies, some have correlation with behavior and some do not, is it that hard to comprehend? I even explained that before too!

But you're tying whatever the hell you want to religion and then claiming religion is bad. I am tying a trait I have found to extremely common amongst Atheists to religion in the same manner you apply traits to religion. I don't care what Atheism actually is, because in the way you have been attaching things, it doesn't matter.

IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION!

How can it reflect in one case not the other? How can a high instance of a trait make religion bad, but the high instance of a different trait NOT make atheism bad when their occurrence is damn near identical.

People are influenced by their surroundings and their beliefs, I already explained why religion does and I just told you why it cannot apply to atheism in this case, and yes media and religion influence people.

Actually you said very little about Atheism. If you're trying to take a point somewhere. I suggest you take it all fo the way there. If you're trying to say that Atheism is a response not a belief, then say it. However, in the end it really does not matter. Atheism effects its believers (non-belivers?) in the same way religion and media effect their respective groups. Atheism has numerous strong hints and intonations encouraging its followers to be arrogant, rude, and generally intolerant of those that are not faux-smart enough to agree.

Either way, either you accept that people are actively changed and motivated to do bad things by ALL external stimuli resembling religion, such as media, and other beliefs like Atheism, or you accept that these things are benign except when in the hands of already bad people.