Does "God" hold us back?

[camobch0]

I just want to pose a question to everyone out here. I want to ask you

Does the idea of a God, or some sort of force omnipotent or creator in the universe, hold us back as a species?

My personal belief is that the idea of a God-force holds humanity back, because it means that life is a level playing field. Without a God, it basically renders life into a one-off experience, where those who are unlucky, will die and have to survive through a horrid life, and those who are lucky, or abuse other humans will succeed. It's comforting to think that even though most average people in countries like Afghanistan and South Sudan have to go through horrible hardships, they will go to heaven afterwards and have eternal happiness. With this kind of believe, people don't feel as though they have to work hard to change our world so that people do not have to suffer.

I want your guys opinions on this. I'm not trying to make a thread about the existence of God, so if you personally think there is a God, then incorporate that into your post, and if you don't, then incorporate that into your post. Don't debate about the existence of God, just talk about your beliefs in if God holds us back from achieving something greater as a species, or if it does help believers become better people.

[Camarohusky]

Belief in a god actually sets us free.

It allows humans to move forward without having to worry about the unknown. It facilitates social partnerships and provides a potent avenue through which we combine our strengths to forge forward. It motivates some who would otherwise remain unmotivated. It creates a reason to forge ahead when things do not look promising. And so on and so forth.

Belief in a god may have some drawbacks, but these drawbacks are very much outweighed by the benefits and positive side effects.

[Korriken]

My belief in god is the only thing keeping certain people (like my evil ex step dad) safe from my wrath.

lucky bastard... to put him out of my misery would be SO easy. and yet, to do so will guarantee my eternal damnation.

hell of an aggression inhibitor.

[djack]

Belief in God doesn't discourage people from improving the lives of those that are suffering it gives people a reason to persevere. There are also a lot of people who donate their time and money into helping others solely because they believe it's what God wants them to do and without that belief they would do nothing to help others.

If you really think God is what is holding us back ask yourself this. What reason would anyone have to help someone else out in a society that believes that the luck and fitness of an individual are what's important? If a society had no reason for morals or altruism why would they go out of their way for the benefit of someone who is less fit/lucky than they are? While some areas of science might advance faster without being questioned by morals medicinal science and other altruistic scientific fields would have no reason to advance as those people who need it the most are often too poor to afford it therefore there is no profit that can be taken from researching those fields.

[SteveGuzzi]

religious belief is one of the few things that differentiate humans from all other creatures. based on that alone i think it's safe to say that the concept of god(s), higher powers, worlds beyond our own, etc... that whole realm of thought probably has something to do with why we've made it as far as we have. nothing else has dominated the planet like we have and nothing else has demonstrated any inkling of spiritual thought comparable to ours. i don't think it's THAT bold to suggest that there's some correlation between the two.

to me the real difference comes down to whether you think religious belief is a cornerstone of civilization (as in, a key foundational aspect) or whether you think its more like scaffolding (a temporary platform used only for construction). personally i would learn towards the cornerstone option.

...

besides that, i think its kinda pointless to try to predict exactly how religious belief will affect a particular person or group since not everyone responds in the same ways to the same influences. claiming that religious belief necessarily makes a person an unthinking follower is as nonsensical as claiming that the lack of religious belief necessarily makes a person an ice-cold nihilist. it's nowhere near as simple as that.

in general i'd say that anything that strips us of our curiosity about the world and our concern for it and the creatures that inhabit it is what holds us back. sometimes that thing happens to be the idea of 'God'. on other occasions, the idea of 'God' is where curiosity and concern actually take off and flourish. to me, religious belief is similar to technology insofar as it can be used for both beneficial and detrimental aims. as an aspect of the human psyche and as a tool people use to understand the world around them, religious belief can be an impetus for both creation as well as destruction.

[camobch0]

Just kinda skimmed because I'm in a rush right now, but from what I gathered, I agree with Steve that religion did help us develop to the level that we are at now. But I believe that now with all of the knowledge we have, why can't we just let go of religion and instead spend the time we'd use worshipping to research and educate ourselves. Humanity could explore the depths of space and colonize the universe if we stopped bickering about religion and fighting wars over it, and instead spend all that time and money and energy advancing our technology and our information.

[adrshepard]

At 7/23/11 08:49 PM, camobch0 wrote: Humanity could explore the depths of space and colonize the universe if we stopped bickering about religion and fighting wars over it, and instead spend all that time and money and energy advancing our technology and our information.

You're defining progress exclusively as scientific advancement. Here's an idea: let's enslave all the stupid people and confiscate their wealth. They'd work for free and we'd save tons of money to fund scientific research, conducted by people who passed a series of intelligence tests. I'd sure love to live in that advanced society.

[aviewaskewed]

At 7/23/11 08:49 PM, camobch0 wrote: Humanity could explore the depths of space and colonize the universe if we stopped bickering about religion and fighting wars over it, and instead spend all that time and money and energy advancing our technology and our information.

We'd just find a new way to fight. I don't think the creators of South Park are that far off when they suggested that if the world was nothing but atheists they'd start bickering about what is the best way to define their federation, league, alliance, etc. Human beings are hard wired to be aggressive.

I think the better question for me is this: Is it the belief in God that holds us back? Or is it the ignorance of the individual believer who doesn't ask questions, simply does what their told, and slams off whole avenues of thought and morality because their particular religion or church tells them they have to think a certain way? I don't think a spiritual idea or belief is limiting by itself. It's usually those who derive "authority" from it that begin placing limitations and controls on thought and advancement.

[The-universe]

In some ways a belief in god is holding us back, in others I think it isn't.

I don't think that a belief in a god(s) is going to cause a mass genocide anytime soon. However, in discovery of the mysteries of my username then yeah, for one simple reason.

We live in a society that is dependant on knowledge. We need it, we use it and we'll most likely die without it. But the problem lies on the fact that almost every god has never been observed or shown to be anything more than unlikely. Yet the very same people, who have no problem gorging on the benefits of knowledge take the unknown and slap a sticker on the back saying "god dun it", which to me sounds like hypocrisy. They don't take such leaps and bounds when they find a mass on their testicles or their skin starts turning black and when they do, they usually end up dead.

The same goes for psychics, faith healers and the such like. Just get in the fucking sack.

[Iron-Hampster]

when the teachings of these "Prophets" are misinterpreted, it does hold us back. (ex. Jesus telling people to love thy neighbor some how translated into do as the the king says or your going to hell after we cut your head off.).

imo: religion would be better without books for people to over analyse and twist to their needs.

I don't even believe in god yet i look at the big picture of these and think "yep, that's what i should be doing for other people."

[Knis]

I believe irrationality holds man back, belief in one or more deities may be irrational but it's certainly on the low end of the scale.

Now the belief that faith trumps reality certainly holds us back.
& the belief that God(s) tells people what to do holds people back obviously by allowing people to morally justify anything they want does as well.

Also it causes bad people to behave thus allowing them to hid in civilized society for example

At 7/23/11 06:16 PM, Korriken wrote: My belief in god is the only thing keeping certain people (like my evil ex step dad) safe from my wrath.

lucky bastard... to put him out of my misery would be SO easy. and yet, to do so will guarantee my eternal damnation.

hell of an aggression inhibitor.

Now if Korriken did give his former step dad his wrath he might be imprisoned, preventing him for propagating his wrath prone genetics. But since this wont happen he may pass on his genes & some of his descendants will either not believe in god(s) or worse believe that the gods want the same things that they want.

[Entice]

No, but organized religion does. It creates a control system.

[Camarohusky]

At 7/24/11 03:00 AM, bgraybr wrote: No, but organized religion does. It creates a control system.

I strongly disagree with you there. Organized religion actually has provided a great deal of the benefits of theism. We humans are a communal species. We are meant to live in numbers and it is those numbers that have given us strength. Organized religion allows beliefs to mesh with our communal nature and to thrive as a group. It is not the belief that creates bonds, but rather the shared belief. One person's belief alone may be able to drive that person, but when there is a shared belief people are driven together. We all can agree that two people working together is more productive than two working independantly.

Finally, it is neither the belief nor the religion that leads people down wrong paths. It is our very human nature that leads people down the wrong path. One of organized religions biggest falws is that it can be susceptable to being controlled by a wrong person.

[Entice]

Yes but it concerns me because it encourages group thought. I'm sure that a lot of people out there follow their religion without ever actually questioning it or thinking about it, they just listen to their preachers. I don't like the attitude of moral superiority either, many genuinely believe that their religion is the voice of an all powerful God and therefore they're always in the moral right. It can be a one-sided way of thinking.

I'd like to see a culture with more emphasis on individual thought and freedom. I'm not going to tell my children what to think if I have any, or even tell them what my religion is until they're older.

[Ericho]

I'd have to say no. People who discuss this matter often claim that religion was the cause of the Middle Ages being a time of darkness. In actuality, (taken from Wikipedia)
"The classification of the European era between the decline of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance as the "Dark Ages" is now rejected by most modern historians.[3][4][5] During the early Middle Ages, significant literary and educational advances (especially during the period known as the Carolingian Renaissance) were made, including the foundations of the modern university, as well as scientific advancements in the fields of physics, astronomy, medicine and surgery, agriculture, architectural engineering, logic, mathematics, optics and biology. It is also erroneously claimed that the Roman Catholic Church suppressed scientific advancement during this era;[citation needed] in fact, a great deal of advancements were on the behalf of Catholic priests, monks and friars. See list of Roman Catholic cleric-scientists.

[MultiCanimefan]

No, but ethics does.

[Camarohusky]

At 7/24/11 03:36 AM, bgraybr wrote: Yes but it concerns me because it encourages group thought. I'm sure that a lot of people out there follow their religion without ever actually questioning it or thinking about it, they just listen to their preachers.

While this is a valid point, the amount of good caused by this group think very much outweighs the bad. I have seen entire throngs of people help out for no other reason but their religion. That stuff just doesn't make the news or the history books like the bad events do.

I don't like the attitude of moral superiority either, many genuinely believe that their religion is the voice of an all powerful God and therefore they're always in the moral right. It can be a one-sided way of thinking.

Again, your imputing the faults of the human to the religion. Belief in a god, or being part fo a religion doesn't make people ad, it just can act as a vehicle for it.

I'd like to see a culture with more emphasis on individual thought and freedom. I'm not going to tell my children what to think if I have any, or even tell them what my religion is until they're older.

By doing that, you are actually doing exactly what you are trying to avoid. Just think about it.

[CHEEZBurger13r]

I'm going to try to make this short. SCIENTIFIC WAY PLEASE NOTE THIS IS ALL FROM MY PERSPECTIVE I COULD BE WRONG AND IF YOU SEE ANY ERRORS IN MY WORK PLEASE DON'T BE AFRAID TO TELL ME :)

THe idea of a creator was probably to help understand stand tht we don't understand. The universe as a idea is too big for us a people to understand. it's like the number a trillion we have absolutely no idea what a trillion is yet it's everwhere in american news and politics. However we can understand the we don't understand. People that create religion are people who are people who abide the God Complex (link here http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.htm l) the God complex is the idea the some people think their solution to the problem is bullet proof and any other way is wrong. It gets it name from everyone that falls in their little world where they are always right are like gods. Trial and error is the driving force behind civilization that is scince based on the scienctific method which is trial and error. (link of scienctific method http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fa ir-projects/project_scientific_method.sh tml). where by a endless series of self correcting trial and error method ends up with fact that works.

THEOLOGICAL WAY

The Idea of god in theologyis controversial because in some religion there are many in some there is only one and in other there are none and in some nature or the natural is "supernatural". As Epicurus said "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God? this quote means that god is obviously Alpha but he is Omega since he is the one force powerful enough to create evil. In middle eastern religions karma is one way of dictating the fate of a person based o n their actions thoughts and feelings. In other religions karma is the one thing that stops a person from achieving enlightenment. I think that the karma a person carries with them must be balanced (good and evil must be balanced). In some religions karma are particles in the universe were your actions thoughts and feelings attract karma. In some one God religions enlightenment is achieved by repentence of sin. In those religions God is the driving force behind civilization on the path to spiritual enlightenment.

PLEASE REMEMBE THIS WAS ALL FROM MY KNOWLEDGE AS A 15 YEAR OLD IF I WAS WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME :) THANKS FOR READING!

[CHEEZBurger13r]

in a scientific way no God doesn't and in a theological way yes the "creator" does.

[Entice]

At 7/24/11 12:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: While this is a valid point, the amount of good caused by this group think very much outweighs the bad. I have seen entire throngs of people help out for no other reason but their religion. That stuff just doesn't make the news or the history books like the bad events do.

I'm curious as to how the good outweighs the bad exactly. I'm sure that religious people do plenty of charity work now but they're also the reason why, for example, gay rights are being opposed. The amount of violence that uses religion as a justification is huge and charity work is really more of a recent thing.

I have a hard time believing that without organized religion we wouldn't help other people or have morals.

Again, your imputing the faults of the human to the religion. Belief in a god, or being part fo a religion doesn't make people ad, it just can act as a vehicle for it.

Isn't that exactly why it can be dangerous? Because it acts as a vehicle? It's not bad in itself but it can indirectly cause problems. The thought control concerns me.

By doing that, you are actually doing exactly what you are trying to avoid. Just think about it.

I've thought about it and I don't see where you're going with that.

[Entice]

At 7/24/11 12:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Again, your imputing the faults of the human to the religion. Belief in a god, or being part fo a religion doesn't make people ad, it just can act as a vehicle for it.

So again, you're saying "religion isn't dangerous, bad people can just use it to take advantage of our human faults".

Well, we're all human and putting that much power into someone or any organization is a bad thing. Religion is dangerous because it can be used to manipulate people.

[Camarohusky]

At 7/24/11 01:25 PM, bgraybr wrote: I'm curious as to how the good outweighs the bad exactly. I'm sure that religious people do plenty of charity work now but they're also the reason why, for example, gay rights are being opposed. The amount of violence that uses religion as a justification is huge and charity work is really more of a recent thing.

Organized religion has een acting as local charity for thousands of years. It was organized religion that helped many communites survive the middle ages. A great deal of knowledge and community aid up until quite recently were done by the church and not by any other groups.

I do not disagree that religion has sometime perpetrated and more often been a part of some pretty nasty things. However, like I pointed out above it has done a ton of good. We just notice the bad things more because that's how we are.

I have a hard time believing that without organized religion we wouldn't help other people or have morals.

I never said we wouldn't. We human allign along common boundaries. Religion is one of the more wide spread commonalities we have.

Isn't that exactly why it can be dangerous? Because it acts as a vehicle? It's not bad in itself but it can indirectly cause problems. The thought control concerns me.

Religion doesn't practice thought control. Many people will blindly follow religion because they are weak, not because the relgiion has control over them. Just another human failing that is being imputed to religion.

I've thought about it and I don't see where you're going with that.

You want to avoid indoctrinating your children with your beliefs, and in not involving them in religion until you think they can make their own choice, you have made them in your image. You have essentially chosen for them in the guise of attempting not to chose for them.

Many atheist and agnostic people unintentionally fall into the same 'traps' that religious people do regarding religion, thus showing that these 'traps' have nothing to do with religion, but with people.

[Entice]

At 7/24/11 05:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: You want to avoid indoctrinating your children with your beliefs, and in not involving them in religion until you think they can make their own choice, you have made them in your image. You have essentially chosen for them in the guise of attempting not to chose for them.

I see what you mean now. I'd really can't think of a better way to get them to think for themselves then to not talk them about it and tell them that one day they'll have their own views on life and they just have to keep an open mind. But yeah, they'd probably get the picture from me and end up being Atheist or Agnostic. :/

Many atheist and agnostic people unintentionally fall into the same 'traps' that religious people do regarding religion, thus showing that these 'traps' have nothing to do with religion, but with people.

I'd like to avoid that, but the attitude of some religious people just gets to me sometimes. But that's getting a bit off topic.

[CcZero]

At 7/24/11 05:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Religion doesn't practice thought control. Many people will blindly follow religion because they are weak, not because the religion has control over them. Just another human failing that is being imputed to religion.

But they do brainwash their followers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_758l1CVJ 7M

You should be able to find the other parts of it on Youtube too. Watch it.
And no, I don't believe that this represents the majority of religious people around the world. At least in western society. But the point is that it happens. And that's bad.

[djack]

At 7/24/11 07:22 PM, CcZero wrote:

At 7/24/11 05:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Religion doesn't practice thought control. Many people will blindly follow religion because they are weak, not because the religion has control over them. Just another human failing that is being imputed to religion.

But they do brainwash their followers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_758l1CVJ 7M

You should be able to find the other parts of it on Youtube too. Watch it.
And no, I don't believe that this represents the majority of religious people around the world. At least in western society. But the point is that it happens. And that's bad.

That happens in nonreligious groups as well. Brainwashing is a tool used by people who want absolute control and can be done without using religion to control people. Like Camaro said you're imputing human faults on religion in general for the sole purpose of making religion out to be the bad guy. Hitler and Stalin both controlled people without using religion and they're responsible for a combined death count of over 20 million. Humans do bad things and humans will always try to justify what they did. Just because people sometimes use religion as that justification does not mean that religion itself is the cause.

[CcZero]

At 7/24/11 07:30 PM, djack wrote: That happens in nonreligious groups as well. Brainwashing is a tool used by people who want absolute control and can be done without using religion to control people. Like Camaro said you're imputing human faults on religion in general for the sole purpose of making religion out to be the bad guy. Hitler and Stalin both controlled people without using religion and they're responsible for a combined death count of over 20 million. Humans do bad things and humans will always try to justify what they did. Just because people sometimes use religion as that justification does not mean that religion itself is the cause.

The question at hand is whether religion holds us back as a species. Due to the freedom of religion the government can't step in and stop what's going on.

:Just because people sometimes use religion as that justification does not mean that religion itself is the cause.

And that's the problem. They have a widely acceptable excuse to do shit like seen in the documentary. I'm not saying that religion itself is the cause. I'm saying that it's not okay to treat children like that and call it a religious tradition or whatever they now wish to call it.

Same can be said about the crusades that were going on during the medieval period. It is said that nine million have died because of them.

Let's just say what their excuse was again.

Religion.

The nobles, popes, and knights of the old days all thought that it would be okay to kill a shitload of people in the name of religion. When we look back into it today, we obviously disagree. We're disgusted by the thought. I bet people in the future will study the civilisation of today and react in the very same way.

[CcZero]

I can't quote properly.

Anyway, I forgot to say, giving individuals cover for doing bad things is an obstacle for evolving as a race. At least that's what I believe.

[djack]

At 7/24/11 08:00 PM, CcZero wrote:

At 7/24/11 07:30 PM, djack wrote: That happens in nonreligious groups as well. Brainwashing is a tool used by people who want absolute control and can be done without using religion to control people. Like Camaro said you're imputing human faults on religion in general for the sole purpose of making religion out to be the bad guy. Hitler and Stalin both controlled people without using religion and they're responsible for a combined death count of over 20 million. Humans do bad things and humans will always try to justify what they did. Just because people sometimes use religion as that justification does not mean that religion itself is the cause.

The question at hand is whether religion holds us back as a species. Due to the freedom of religion the government can't step in and stop what's going on.

Actually the government does step in when they have reason to believe that the group is a threat to other people. Any cult is dangerous but the government needs proof that they are going to hurt people before they can do anything about it. If anything it's the rights that protect people from being searched/arrested without evidence of a crime that protects those groups.

Just because people sometimes use religion as that justification does not mean that religion itself is the cause.

And that's the problem. They have a widely acceptable excuse to do shit like seen in the documentary. I'm not saying that religion itself is the cause. I'm saying that it's not okay to treat children like that and call it a religious tradition or whatever they now wish to call it.

No they don't. Nobody thinks that groups like that are a good thing, it's a matter of a few individuals taking control of a large group. As I said above, the reason they get away with this is because the government needs proof that they're doing something wrong not because they call themselves a religion.

Same can be said about the crusades that were going on during the medieval period. It is said that nine million have died because of them.

Let's just say what their excuse was again.

Religion.

The nobles, popes, and knights of the old days all thought that it would be okay to kill a shitload of people in the name of religion. When we look back into it today, we obviously disagree. We're disgusted by the thought. I bet people in the future will study the civilisation of today and react in the very same way.

No, the crusades was about a group of power hungry leaders who wanted to take more land and control the people who lived there. They used religion as a justification to convince the people to willingly fight but those same leaders held political power as well as religious power and could have easily forced the people into fighting. Religion is used as a justification because it is common and many people can be convinced to use the same justification but humans will always do things that are morally wrong and they will always try to justify it. If everyone believed in evolution they could just as easily justify their actions as being against someone who is less fit and therefore doesn't deserve to live, they would believe they were helping people when they were actually hurting them.

The longest lasting conflict in history is the conflict between the Shi'ites and the Sunis. Both are religious groups but they have the same religion. They aren't fighting over which religion is right they started fighting because of a difference in political opinion of who should lead them and eventually the fighting went on so long that they stopped having a reason to fight and just fought because it's what they've always been fighting. Their fighting has been going on for almost 2000 years and it has nothing to do with religious differences.

[X-Centurian]

I'm not going to comment on anyone else post's to avoid anymore argument, but I can explain how I see things.

I used to worry about what would happen to me as I got older and eventually died. Not so much as what was in store for me after death, but what I would do that could possible put me in 'hell'. I suppose I was just born this way, seeing as I didn't get it from my parents, but I questioned everything and i'm a very rebellious yet individualized person. Strangely enough, most of the things that were considered taboo in my religion were things that I saw were more human rights rather than something that should be forbidden and called off as abomination. Coming from a super religious family I made the extreme leap of faith (lol irony?) and gave up God against my parents better wishes...however they still do not know that I have. Since then, I have fought for giving humans more rights that the state takes away because of religion. I really don't think religion is a terrible thing, but when it is shoved down my throat like a pig on an open fire, I just can't take it. I do believe religion can help people "recover" from states of self-loathing and maybe even unify them ...for the time being, but when it is blown out of proportion and used as a weapon against certain lifestyle choices, that's the cut-off point for me. I think I have become stronger since I gave up religion because I can take all my problems into my own hands and not worry that a wrong choice will get me an eternity of pain, and learning from the mistakes myself gives me more experience and more out of life. I don't need religion to stay on track, that is what morality and common sense are for. I don't need it to fall back on, as much as I may sometimes wish I had something, I know that whatever happens to me is only mundane and however horrible the obstacle, it will come to an end eventually and I can survive it alone or with friends.

At the same time, I was born with a mind set to never be one sided, and even if there is something I don't like, I accept it as truth (as long as it's proven that is) or accept the negativity in general.

For some, religion helps bring personal growth and even peace. But some prefer going it alone and enjoy growing this way instead. And please do not think I'm an atheist. I am simply nothing. I'm not christian, atheist, Scientologist, or agnostic. I'm living it as if religion never existed, and I don't ask you try it that way, I just ask you don't put me down for it.

In the end, I believe religion can exist, just please, for the sake of whatever deity you may or may not believe in, separate state and church and allow us to grow in our own way. And if chaos pursues, there is always prison. I'm perfectly capable of helping my fellow man without organized religion breathing down my neck in approval, and I know you have it in you to let everyone do their own thing.

[Bacchanalian]

At 7/25/11 01:17 AM, X-Centurian wrote: I just ask you don't put me down for it.

You know what I'll put you down for? Bullshit.

Like going from "since [I gave up God], I have fought for giving humans more rights that the state takes away because of religion" to "I'm living it as if religion never existed". Blatant contradiction. Really, now, what would be so different about the way you live your life if you lived it as if religion had or does exist? Never mind that you full well acknowledge the existence of religion and describe your (as you assure us very rebellious and individualized) reaction to religion. Would you have to man up and tell your parents?

I'm all for celebrating achievement, but not so dishonestly.

How about these labels? Are you an individual? Are you human? Oh shit. You fit into a category (two!). See, you're inclusion in some groups is not dependent on whether you want to be associated with them. Atheism and agnosticism happen to be that kind of group.

I'm all for celebrating individuality, but not so dishonestly.

Inquisitiveness, individuality, rebelliousness, being able to take matters into your own hands, learning from mistakes yourself. Are these things virtues? Are these things lacking in the religious? Careful now; remember what you said, "I think I have become stronger since I gave up religion."

I'm all for celebrating one's pride, but not so dishonestly.