How to avoid cluttering a mix?

[SmdSkata]

I keep finding myself in situations where I'll have multiple synths that sound good played together but near the mid-high range, the frequencies tend to color each other and distort a bit...

I could always take a synth out but then the song looses a dynamic. Does anybody have a way to combat this problem? I know side-chaining works good on the low end, but I can't see using it for the higher side...

[Chris-V2]

Hi pass errythang. It depends on the instrument, but I there's alot of low information you can just remove. This applies especialy if you're using white noise as part of synth sounds.

Give each instruments it's sort of band of predominant energy - if one synth mainly takes up a certain range (and it may be small) then give it that. Lowpass it abit, give other sounds the change to use that space. You don't have to smash these frequencies, but 2 or 3db less on a band of frequencies will stack up as you do it with each instrument. It's interactive and the effect is cummulative, so sometimes you'll need more or less!

This means when solo'd some sounds may be very dull or very bright for what you imagine them to be, but they might sit very tidily in the mix! Just be prepared to experiment alot and don't expect formula to work. No one has mention the spectral analyser technique yet - I'm just going to come out and say I don't agree with it. Some mixes should have an overall quality that isn't flat.

[SmdSkata]

At 5/1/11 03:09 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: This means when solo'd some sounds may be very dull or very bright for what you imagine them to be, but they might sit very tidily in the mix!

I just tried your method and this is definitely true.. I felt like I was taking the air out of them, but when in the full mix it sounded fine.

I wanna see someone post the other method still, but yours worked well. Thanks.

[Decibel]

At 5/1/11 02:42 PM, SmdSkata wrote: I keep finding myself in situations where I'll have multiple synths that sound good played together but near the mid-high range, the frequencies tend to color each other and distort a bit...

I could always take a synth out but then the song looses a dynamic. Does anybody have a way to combat this problem? I know side-chaining works good on the low end, but I can't see using it for the higher side...

Put some compression on it, then slightly lowpass it. I'd put the compression at about 2.5dB. You compress something before adding a lowpass in order to keep the sound loud. Then add an EQ and lower the treble(highpass) to your liking.
If you'd like to sidechain it, be my guest, but before you actually do it, add some reverb for depth.

That's my two cents anyways.

[SmdSkata]

At 5/1/11 04:30 PM, Decibel wrote: That's my two cents anyways.

With the synths im using, the compression just made it seem too flat even with light compression. I'm gonna try with an acoustic piece in the future though, sounds like it'd have good use.

Heres my best attempt at uncluttering it. 0:16 is where it was getting messy.

http://www.2shared.com/audio/fEd0yr6v/dt ech.html

[DDman465]

You could always use a stereo enhancer and give each synth it's own space.

[Chris-V2]

At 5/1/11 08:18 PM, DDman465 wrote: You could always use a stereo enhancer and give each synth it's own space.

Panning is good, but can be an issue in the low end.

I'm currently mixing a some drums I recorded for a metal band a few days ago and the intro has semiquaver kicks, a super low floor tom, two mid toms (which I later realized where sittin' goofy as they were tuned to D and A and the song was in C so I had to pitch shift them, BLEH) and a Guitar pounding away in Drop C (Drop D down a step, technicly). Alot can be done, but it's looking like I'll be swapping samples in for the floor tom. The kick is sitting at 76hz and the floor tom is at 85hz.

I'll tell you know, panning does fuck all in that scenario :D

In this situation you're gating alot and trying stuff like flipping the phase. It may seem arbitrary, especialy with synths, but it can work. You don't know how the waveforms are interacting so it's best to just try! I've found it can help alot with overheads for kick and snare clarity. Hell, it only take's a few minutes to find out if you're wasting your time or not.

[midimachine]

Subtle stereo phase can cut big holes in the mix for other instruments to come through, always highpass before panning though.

With a lot of my mixes I use a VST called Sonalksis StereoTools on the master channel to output everything below 150-200Hz in mono (there are cheap/free VSTs that will do the same thing though).

[Mrmilkcarton]

Things I've learned to do have been this...

Try to make use of Buses/aux channels. This way you can use the same reverb setting and delay setting on multiple instruments without creating new reverbs to add mud. EQ things to their respective range. Some synthes don't need low end so cut it. Also try to avoid putting reverb and delay on everything. It can sound good when you first start but as you start adding more things the mix will start over flow and mash together.

Less can be more, try to find that thin line between not enough reverb/delay or too much.

So try that along with what everyone else has suggested and I'm sure you will find what works and doesn't for you.

[midimachine]

OH YEAH speaking of reverb don't ever reverberate frequencies below like 300-ish unless you have absolutely NOTHING else going on, otherwise you will destroy any clarity in your lows and low-mids and possibly cause harmonic dissonance.

[Chris-V2]

At 5/1/11 11:29 PM, midimachine wrote: OH YEAH speaking of reverb don't ever reverberate frequencies below like 300-ish unless you have absolutely NOTHING else going on, otherwise you will destroy any clarity in your lows and low-mids and possibly cause harmonic dissonance.

Reverb is very much a genre specific thing. On metal I'd keep it to a minimum, on psych-60's/surf music I'd have a spring reverb bouncing all over the place. Reverb falls into this awkward place between production and mixing - it does need to sit but in some styles the reverb has an aesthetic that the mixing engineer would normally not go for. Muddy reverbs are sometimes good, I'm not saying to put 4 convulation rev.s on your kick or even keep anything over 150, I'm just saying don't rule it out. The dissonance can add certain qualities to it, sometimes.

I'd recommend the same for delays, though I love dubby filtered delays anyway. Full bandwidth delays of a signal can be indistinct, muddy and don't add as much textural interest to me. It's why tape delays and BBD based delays are popular. Adding filtering, auto filters, chorus, trem or just something to help it differentiate can do alot for both the production and the final mix. You end up with a new element with its own sound instead of a carbon copy.

[Krank]

Pan similar frequency instruments left and right

[joshhunsaker]

At 5/1/11 11:29 PM, midimachine wrote: OH YEAH speaking of reverb don't ever reverberate frequencies below like 300-ish unless you have absolutely NOTHING else going on, otherwise you will destroy any clarity in your lows and low-mids and possibly cause harmonic dissonance.

erm, I don't know about this being a hard/fast rule at all...

There are no hard/fast rules in music production.

[Buoy]

To solve the bass reverb problem quickly (if your reverb plugin of choice doesn't have an option for dampening low frequencies), make a reverb bus (for the tracks on which you want the reverb to color the sound rather than being a very noticeable effect), put a hipass filter before the reverb plugin and then send everything to that for reverb.

At 5/3/11 09:21 AM, joshhunsaker wrote: erm, I don't know about this being a hard/fast rule at all...

There are no hard/fast rules in music production.

It's not a rule. It's just, that's what always happens when you put a lot of reverb and delays on a frequency range with frequencies that are less and less discernible from each other the further down you go. You get a lot of incoherent rumble, phasing issues and mud.

[midimachine]

At 5/3/11 09:21 AM, joshhunsaker wrote:

At 5/1/11 11:29 PM, midimachine wrote: OH YEAH speaking of reverb don't ever reverberate frequencies below like 300-ish unless you have absolutely NOTHING else going on, otherwise you will destroy any clarity in your lows and low-mids and possibly cause harmonic dissonance.

erm, I don't know about this being a hard/fast rule at all...

There are no hard/fast rules in music production.

It's just a really fucking bad idea in most situations.

Yeah man there are no rules. Render your mixdowns at +6dB it's all good!

[Chris-V2]

5/3/11 09:42 AM, midimachine wrote:
Yeah man there are no rules. Render your mixdowns at +6dB it's all good!

Implying that question a convention involves questioning all convention or any desire for audio quality.

Don't be silly, he's right. Going by your ears is better than going by the book, I took this thread as a place to suggest improvements. I think you'll find the Imposing Musical Dogma thread is over on Gearslutz or GuitarGeek forums

[midimachine]

Man I'm all for creativity, but "there are no ruuuules maaaan!" is just a really dumb and illogical mentality when taken to an extreme. I like that you came up with situations and reasons to use muddy reverb, Chris. This guy is just being stupid, though.

Of course I'm not saying that you can't put reverb on low frequencies; if you weren't supposed to then they'd have stopped making reverbs with the option to do so a long time ago. This thread is about advice and I gave advice. And in a lot of situations it's pretty sound advice, and I don't appreciate someone attempting to discredit it simply because of my blunt wording.

BUT ANYWAY it's cool and I'm really not one for mixing dogma.

[Reaper93]

At 5/3/11 08:42 AM, Bjra wrote: Pan similar frequency instruments left and right

Going off of this and an earlier suggestion about stereo enhancing, sometimes it's a good idea to start summing your stereo fields if you have too much going on. When you've got six elements playing at the same time (say, percussion, pad, harmony, melody, bass, and like some accents or fills) things start to get really cluttered in the stereo field and it becomes overwhelming to the listener. At this point it may be a good idea to consider summing your kick towards mono (if not all the way to mono then closer to mono). If that's unacceptable earlier in the track you can automate the summation to mono to occur later on.

That's a common technique I've begun employing, actually. Where there's not a lot going on I have my equalizers turned off and let the full instrument through, but where the mix begins to get cluttered I automate the equalizer on so that it starts cutting off the less important frequencies to make room. Low passing your kick at 10khz is almost always warranted, but if all you have for the first 30 seconds is a percussion fill then you don't necessarily want to be cutting bits of your kick off until later.

[jarrydn]

At 5/3/11 09:42 AM, midimachine wrote: Yeah man there are no rules. Render your mixdowns at +6dB it's all good!

I would do this if I could but it'll go no further than unity.

[Breed]

I didn't read through everyone's posts but I find the best way is to imagine your mix in a 3d field where x-axis is panning, y-axis is frequency, and z-axis is relative volume. Each sound should have its own unique positioning in said field by use of stereo imaging and equalization.

[Buoy]

At 5/3/11 07:17 PM, LogicalDefiance wrote: I didn't read through everyone's posts but I find the best way is to imagine your mix in a 3d field where x-axis is panning, y-axis is frequency, and z-axis is relative volume. Each sound should have its own unique positioning in said field by use of stereo imaging and equalization.

i.e don't let any sounds have the same frequency and panning and amplitude.

[Reaper93]

Unless they're supposed to be blended together, then you can do that just fine :p

[Chris-V2]

..Or if they're not synchronous.

[Breed]

Read "The Art of Mixing" by David Gibson then make fun of me. It's a solid technique.

[midimachine]

but LD! there are no rules!!!

[Buoy]

At 5/3/11 07:48 PM, LogicalDefiance wrote: Read "The Art of Mixing" by David Gibson then make fun of me. It's a solid technique.

ok but how is what you said practically different from my rephrasing of it?

[Breed]

At 5/3/11 07:52 PM, midimachine wrote: but LD! there are no rules!!!

Who are you quoting? Nobody said anything about rules

[joshhunsaker]

At 5/3/11 09:30 AM, SBB wrote: It's not a rule. It's just, that's what always happens when you put a lot of reverb and delays on a frequency range with frequencies that are less and less discernible from each other the further down you go.

Why do lower frequencies become "less and less discernible"? That doesn't make any sense. I can hear 80hz vs. 120hz vs. 240hz vs. 480hz all the same. Anything outside the audible range (30hz - 16khz) is of course "inaudible" by definition but I have no idea what you're talking about otherwise.

You get a lot of incoherent rumble, phasing issues and mud.

Why is low-frequency reverb incoherent? It wouldn't be any more incoherent then the source itself (timbre and pitch is still preserved, it is now just part of a feedback delay network). Reverb does not cause "phasing" issues period. If it did you would hear "phasing" effects (comb-filtering of the source) at a variety of frequencies across the bandwidth. Mud is a nice term that has no testable or qualifiable application.

[Buoy]

At 5/3/11 08:07 PM, LogicalDefiance wrote:

At 5/3/11 07:52 PM, midimachine wrote: but LD! there are no rules!!!

Who are you quoting? Nobody said anything about rules

he's just really bitter about joshhunsaker disagreeing with him a few posts above

[Breed]

At 5/3/11 08:06 PM, SBB wrote:

At 5/3/11 07:48 PM, LogicalDefiance wrote: Read "The Art of Mixing" by David Gibson then make fun of me. It's a solid technique.

ok but how is what you said practically different from my rephrasing of it?

Well listening to it in a sense of imagery, as I said, is better for training your ears but I also never said what you said was wrong or different so why are you asking me that question even?