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At 4/30/11 11:01 AM, JonBro wrote: All right, no one read my post. I give up, I'll leave this thread now.

I did read your post, and it only mentions how Obama dealt with the release of the certificate. Did this change your opinion, or did you already believe he wasn't born in the US before?

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At 4/30/11 09:47 AM, JonBro wrote: Just because I'm stating my own opinion and it happens to be different from yours doesn't make me a troll, you know. People who use that logic are just as dense as you accuse me of being. But that's off-topic.

opinions are worth nothing, how you defend them is what counts. your defense was asinine, ergo your opinion is asinine; how do you think that reflects on you? :P

Releasing the birth certificate sooner would have been further proof than having released it now.

just because hes the present doesn't mean he no longer has private personal information. (not to mention that hes probably had to prove his Americanness multiple times as a public/political figure well before considering running for president.
or is the American system that ass-backwards that you're only forced to prove you're who you say you are after you become POTUS?

Less time to prepare a fake certificate

photoshop doesn't require days of work to make a single page with some writing on it...
research included.

less time to doubt

do you really think people wouldn't have flipped their argument around and said "hey wait a minute! whys he so willing to release this so quickly? it must be fake." its about as sound an argument as the one you are presenting at the moment.

and the whole ordeal with Donald Trump doing extensive research about Obama's origin would not have started yet. But I think I see what you mean about time not being an important factor in the scheme of things.

Trump is having himself a publicity field-day while flip-flopping with regards to what he believes hes accomplished. for some reason sensationalist celebrities don't seem that trustworthy (but you know what, lets put it on hold and see if Trump ever comes through with this 'investigation' [my money is on hes just talking])

I also find it suspicious the great multitudes of money Obama has spent simply to defend that he is an American citizen. That's another reason I think the certificate isn't actually his certificate from birth--evidence could easily be falsified for his benefit of being president.

...and he wouldn't have had to spend all that money if...

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At 4/30/11 07:14 AM, gumOnShoe wrote:

No, what you were trying to say is that "reverse racism" gave Obama the election.

reverse racism? You mean where people voted for Obama to prove they're not racist? that was indeed one factor, between that and "omfg historic!" factor helped too.

Which I don't believe. And I've given you plenty of reasons.

I'm glad you admitted that it wasn't the only factor, now maybe you can raise yourself up just a little more and admit its unlikely racism on its own decided the election.

*head scratch* funny, putting words in my mouth.

:You can do it. I don't have much faith that you will, but I know its a possibility.
your lack of faith is well placed. I'm not gonna say something because you want me to, given I never said what you're accusing me of saying. you're taking what i said, twisting it out of whack, and then trying to tell me its how I gave it to you.

in that case, everyone is a xenophobe.

What FUNKBrs said, with an addendum.

I rest my case. I love how liberals love to use words like "phobia" bleh.

He's not American! go from there.

*head scratch* I never said Obama was not an american. His mother, in life, was an american citizen, which makes Obama a natural born american citizen... or at least, to my knowledge.

I know birthers are a small group. The number of people that make excuses for them? Or who think like them in a different way?

Obviously, if you think like them, you're one of them. Problem is, people are taking the small "birther movement" and trying to plaster all of Obama's opposition with it. as if "there is no logical base for anyone to oppose this man, they must all be a bunch of stupid ignorant rednecks."

Eh, made an effort at Gitmo. Failed to make it an issue and push it through.

not really. He signed an executive order within days of being elected and didn't touch it since. He knew from the beginning gitmo wouldn't be shut down, where would we put the prisoners?

Hope & Change. I always knew that was a load of horse shit. There weren't enough hope & change people running for congress at the same time.

There was only 61 of them in the senate... 2 or 3 of em went rogue and screwed the whole thing up for Obama.

Hope = no palin.

*facepalm* stop beating on that straw palin doll. Hope was "ooh a president that wants to achieve bipartisanship!" what did we get? business as usual. so much for "hope"

Change = health care now on peoples mind.

It was already on people's minds. That didn't change.

Its not as secretive actually. Most of that transparency had to do with lobbyists, which now are recorded publicly whenever they visit the white house so you know who's coming and going.

Well, every president does SOMETHING right.

vulgar = opinion

Preventing the opposition from having a say is pretty vulgar. Of course, if either side gets a big enough laptop supermajority, we'll be in for 2 years of single party rule. Neither side is really innocent of that.

The debates on health care were largely broadcast on c-span for all of america to watch. You know, that boring channel that's usually on station 2 or 4?

well, except when they told the republicans to go fuck themselves and shut the doors. C-span wasn't let in either.

lol, what rose tinted glasses will yield. The Jeremiah stuff lasted for about a month and a half in the early summer of the last year of the election. In election politics & news thats a fucking long time.

It was barely touched on. If Jeremiah Wright got as much attention during the election that the names of fallen soldiers got in the beginning to middle of the iraq war, Obama would have been finished.

Palin saying that Africa was a country and that she could see Russia from Alaska got more coverage.

And I still fail to see how one man's opinions that have been renounced taint Obama to such a degree.

given the long span of time he spent in the church, upwards of around 20 years. To say that he doesn't agree with him is just absurd. You don't go to a church and listen to a pastor that you don't agree with for such a long time. Common sense tells you that much.

If the comments had been that poisonous he wouldn't have won because they wouldn't have died out. Clearly enough people didn't care.

well the media isn't controlled by the people. Also, people are selectively blind. Jeremiah Wright WAS a big deal to Obama's opposition. To his supporters, they willfully ignored it to focus on Palin saying Africa is a country.

And Fox took up the other narrative. The narrative was out there for anyone who cared about such things. I think its a non issue myself.

Obama would streak through town wearing nothing but a swastika cape shouting "death to the jews" and there would be people out there who wouldn't see that as a reason for him to resign.

When it comes to real issues though, if you think the coverage was worse for McCain or Bush, did you stop to think that maybe there was actually more of substance to criticize at points?

Umm... I dunno... I mean presidential candidate having a racist pastor that he went to for 20 some off years is a non issue to you, so, I can't really see McCain's age (which was harped on all the way to election day) as that big of a deal. given that he is, in fact, still alive, shows you were worried about nothing.

I clearly explained that "Fuck You" as I uttered it didn't mean I wanted to have gay sex with you. I'l just reference you back to the list of things you can go do with your life.

It was clearly an insult because you had nothing else to say.

Well that's wrong too, it was more like 65% turn out

Sometimes I wonder which one of us is the blind one. I never said 96% of all blacks turned out to vote, TWICE. you still stuck on that.

yup, and I would again when presented with Palin/McCain. Any day of the week, any time of year WWIII or a mountain of Bunnies on the horizon.

Yep... you voted for a lie, but you didn't wanna vote for a lie, but you would gladly do it again so long as the liar is a democrat. good job.

You would, but every moderate I've talked to hates Trump as a president. Every one of them.

Meh, depends on where you live I suppose.

I have no desire to. The law that was eventually modified was written on CSpan. The back door negotiations flared up when it became pretty apparent that republicans were just going to be oppositional and set fire to their own plans, as the did and have continued to do.

would that happen to be the same C-Span who asked, even begged to be allowed to cover the talks? that C-Span? What came out of the little cloak and dagger session had to have some serious modifications to it. Also, Obama was eerily silent on the subject, despite when he was campaigning he said the following.

Obama - "That's what I will do in bringing all parties together, not negotiating behind closed doors, but bringing all parties together, and broadcasting those negotiations on C-SPAN so that the American people can see what the choices are."

It would appear that was an obvious lie.

Everything that Obama passed was a Republican idea from the early 1990s. I know you're too young to remember that. I was pretty young myself, but there's records of it if you're willing to look it up.

It was a republican idea from the 90's its something that the liberals have been drooling over for 50 years.. how did it not pass?

Also, I find it funny that you think "transparency" means "be a republican and let republicans do what they want"

words in my mouth again. you really need to rethink your style of discussion. putting words in other peoples mouths, then debating those words, then trying to insult the other person makes for poor discussion.

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At 4/30/11 03:01 PM, Korriken wrote: *head scratch* funny, putting words in my mouth.

Remember where 2/4 of your reasons for Obama winning were race related? Oh yeah....

I rest my case. I love how liberals love to use words like "phobia" bleh.

What case? You haven't fucking made a case.

I never said Obama was not an american. His mother, in life, was an american citizen, which makes Obama a natural born american citizen... or at least, to my knowledge.

Remember our "Real American TM" discussion?

AKA, Palin loves the "REAL" America? Or, Obama hates America, or isn't patriotic or some such nonsense?

Obviously, if you think like them, you're one of them. Problem is, people are taking the small "birther movement" and trying to plaster all of Obama's opposition with it. as if "there is no logical base for anyone to oppose this man, they must all be a bunch of stupid ignorant rednecks."

I'm not doing that. But I am saying a lot of people don't justify why they don't like Obama based on policy, and that always boils down to being the same thing as Birtherism. "Trust," "Patriotism," "Eligibility," and many "Experience" arguments rest on the same flawed base position.

not really. He signed an executive order within days of being elected and didn't touch it since. He knew from the beginning gitmo wouldn't be shut down, where would we put the prisoners?

You missed the attempt to relocate them to Indiana, which Republicans shut down. And you must have missed the attempt to try them in civilian courts in NY City, which Republicans shut down again.

There was only 61 of them in the senate... 2 or 3 of em went rogue and screwed the whole thing up for Obama.

One died (Kennedy). Not his fault and had to be replaced.
A couple "blue dogs" aren't really democrats at all, they're like your "RINOS"
And Lieberman might as well not be a Democrat at all because he broke ranks to make John McCain feel better.

Democrats (for change) never had a majority.

Hope was "ooh a president that wants to achieve bipartisanship!" what did we get? business as usual. so much for "hope"

Eh, I don't think anyone voted for Obama to get biparticism. But, even now Obama's trying to be bipartisan. Maybe you missed the spat this last week. Boehner finally talked about getting rid of oil subsidies. Obama sent him a letter and say, draft something up and we'll do it. We'll cut several billion from the budget right now. I think that's a great idea. Boehner turns around and says "Sorry, can't do that, it'll raise gas prices. Which it won't.

Working with the republicans for the last two years has been like this. Republicans help with health care, then they pull the footfall. Republicans suggest Cap n Trade in the 90s, then pull the football. Republicans say they want to help small businesses, then they veto a small businesses bill. Republicans say they want to cut the deficit, but they won't do it anyway the democrats are willing to.

You can't have Obama be the only bipartisan person on the field.

It was already on people's minds. That didn't change.

Not as something that was big and needed fixing it wasn't.

Well, every president does SOMETHING right.

lol, "its just something buthe'sstillnottransparent" amiright?

Preventing the opposition from having a say is pretty vulgar. Of course, if either side gets a big enough laptop supermajority, we'll be in for 2 years of single party rule. Neither side is really innocent of that.

They had their say. It was broadcasted live on c-span. They turned against it at the last minute because Boehner wanted opposition. He wanted power over solutions. Don't let government do anything. Democrats look bad. Republicans get elected. TA DA!

well, except when they told the republicans to go fuck themselves and shut the doors. C-span wasn't let in either.

After republicans said they weren't going to vote for the legislation they helped write, Democrats said "go fuck yourselves" as they ought to have done and passed a watered down bill that could get past blue dogs.

It was barely touched on. If Jeremiah Wright got as much attention during the election that the names of fallen soldiers got in the beginning to middle of the iraq war, Obama would have been finished.

Except it was a non issue because the two men are completely different people.

Palin saying that Africa was a country and that she could see Russia from Alaska got more coverage.

Meh that was probably a day's worth of coverage. The problem was she had a new slip up almost ever day (Catie's Interview much?) and she became an easy target and there was always something new to report about or make fun of. We all knew who Obama was by then, but know one knew who Palin was...

given the long span of time he spent in the church, upwards of around 20 years. To say that he doesn't agree with him is just absurd. You don't go to a church and listen to a pastor that you don't agree with for such a long time. Common sense tells you that much.

I doubt the pastor was preaching about 9/11 before it happened. And I've listened to a preacher say plenty of dumb stuff without switching where i went. Sometimes, wait for it, you can listen to a position and disagree with it!

well the media isn't controlled by the people. Also, people are selectively blind. Jeremiah Wright WAS a big deal to Obama's opposition. To his supporters, they willfully ignored it to focus on Palin saying Africa is a country.

The people are the media. Wright wasn't on the ballot.

Obama would streak through town wearing nothing but a swastika cape shouting "death to the jews" and there would be people out there who wouldn't see that as a reason for him to resign.

I'd call for it immediately. Stop it with the straw men.

Umm... I dunno... I mean presidential candidate having a racist pastor that he went to for 20 some off years is a non issue to you, so, I can't really see McCain's age (which was harped on all the way to election day) as that big of a deal. given that he is, in fact, still alive, shows you were worried about nothing.

McCain is a senile man. It was more to do with that than age. Also, you can see presidents undergo a lot more stress than other people. How he is now isn't how he would have been.

I never said 96% of all blacks turned out to vote, TWICE. you still stuck on that.

You said this:

you're just one person. You gotta look at the bigger picture. 96% of black people voted for Obama? hmm. I wonder if that had ANYTHING to do with the color of his skin?

And I was confused by what you meant. But go to the other topic and see just how many black people are actually republicans, then think about whether that's necessarily black people being racist or possibly indicative of Republican Racism since Dems & Reps switch places in the middle of the last century.

Yep... you voted for a lie, but you didn't wanna vote for a lie, but you would gladly do it again so long as the liar is a democrat. good job.

I'd gladly not vote for Palin over and over. Obama wasn't the best. He wasn't a real liberal. He's been a pushover. I'd rather have a real liberal option. But so long as the other option is Palin and her ilk, I'll keep voting to keep them out of office.

Meh, depends on where you live I suppose.

Mayhap.

Obama - "That's what I will do in bringing a...
It would appear that was an obvious lie.

Except, it wasn't. Because they actually did do that. I was just out of school and job hunting and I watched several of the sessions live. They didn't stop doing it until Republicans decided they weren't going to work with Democrats to pass anything. And in many of those sessions Republicans had been wasting time all along.

The republican plan: don't legislate. Make dems look bad. Get elected again.

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At 4/30/11 12:48 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: A and C. Covered two ways for another year thanks to Obama.

A and C? I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly which ones you're checking off. Are you saying you have a policy through your job and one you pay for? Or are you on one through your job and on one your parents pay for? You basically just gave me more questions :)

I've undergone two major surgeries and have had dental coverage since a young age. I had a great surgeon perform both, and I didn't pay an arm and a leg to get it done, mostly because I was still young.

This is irrelevant to what I asked. I asked if you did not have insurance if you had any problems finding a doctor who would take you without insurance. You're indicating you had insurance.

I do plan on having another surgery this summer to fix my shoulder.. whether that means replacement tissue or something else entirely depends on what happens on my next visit.

Do you currently have insurance? Will you have insurance by the summer? If you answe "no" to either of these questions, is the dr still willing to perform this surgery without you having insurance and will you be able to pay the resulting bill?

I like doctors. I think they do important work.

I like doctors too. There are at least two surgeons who I can credit with saving my life in a very real manner and I've grown up with many of the doctors I have now and their care and attention has saved and improved my life on multiple occassions. What would make you seem to think I don't like doctors?

I don't think everyone deserves their services. Does that make me less of a person? Maybe. Maybe it really doesn't.

I think it depends on who you think doesn't "deserve" their services really. Because I hate to make blanket statements based on vague statements only to have to turn around later and go "well when you put it like THAT..."

Your turn for the same questions.

I'd rather you more fully answer mine first :)

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1. Do you currently have health insurance?

see below

If you do, are you paying for that insurance either as the policy holder, or through a payroll deduction? Or are you on someone else's policy.

Of the three options, I am a policy holder (A) and (C) under someone else's policy courtesy of the current administration.

I have the calendar year as dual coverage, my own afterwards.

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ya know voting with your pocketbook isn't always a bad thing.

voting to pilfer someone elses, for something as trivial as personal health, is suspect to me. Have a goddamn benefit if you can't pay your bills and you deserve to get better.

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At 5/1/11 10:47 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: ya know voting with your pocketbook isn't always a bad thing.

voting to pilfer someone elses, for something as trivial as personal health, is suspect to me. Have a goddamn benefit if you can't pay your bills and you deserve to get better.

I don't think many people feel the same as you do. Since about the late 18th century many countries have had universal health care so a lot of people see it as a universal right and not trivial.

However I do believe that we are getting far too off topic discussing the health care legislation in a thread about Obama's birth certificate. You're welcome to continue this line of conversation in the PM system or in a thread about health care.

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At 5/1/11 12:25 PM, Malachy wrote: However I do believe that we are getting far too off topic discussing the health care legislation in a thread about Obama's birth certificate.

Wait, what? I thought we were discussing the 2000 Presidential election in this thread... Or, wait, that't what I was discussing. Where the hell am I? Hello?

Man, how did we get into talking about the 2000 election anyway? Who brought THAT up? *scratches chin*

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Mal makes a good point that we really need to get back to the birth certificate which was the original point of the thread. Apologies for getting off topic :)

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Not not talking about it won't make it go away :(

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He took his time because it was such a absurd request in the first place. At the time instead of dealing with people questioning his origins of birth, he was trying to focus on relevant things. Like the economy.

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At 5/3/11 06:04 PM, butters7 wrote: He took his time because it was such a absurd request in the first place. At the time instead of dealing with people questioning his origins of birth, he was trying to focus on relevant things. Like the economy.

economy? you mean healthcare reform forcing everyone to get insurance and running around the world badmouthing America, right?

big difference.

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At 5/1/11 11:06 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Not not talking about it won't make it go away :(

We can still talk about those other topics guy, just in a more appropriate thread since this is not a catch all for issues about Obama, but rather a thread focused on one very specific issue and we should keep it that way. Know what I mean? :)

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At 5/3/11 08:16 PM, Korriken wrote: running around the world badmouthing America

[citation needed]

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I like the bit were democrats think that because republcians are idiots, it means obama is a good president.

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At 5/3/11 10:19 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I like the bit were democrats think that because republcians are idiots, it means obama is a good president.

Yeah, I saw the saddest protest a few days back. You know, the one where people paid something like 7 grand (or more) to go to a White House dinner, sing a protest song to Obama that caps with "but we're still voting for you because we have no better option". Ok, so let's review what was done there: they put the price of the dinner into Obama and the Democrats's coffers, they provided some dinner entertainment and theater, which they then capped off by reaffirming that even though they're pissed...they're still voting for Obama, and while if it was me I'd take that to mean I should at least TRY to turn those votes from votes cast by beaten people who see no alternative, to people who will smilingly go to the polls and happily re-elect me. But I think that's in part because I'm not a dyed in the wool politician.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Obama has the same thought processes as I do...but I'm somehow doubting it and thinking that at least between now and next november, re-election is his most pressing goal, even if it comes by voters who aren't exactly happy to be checking the box next to his name.

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People aren't willing to vote for Nader, if it means getting Bush II all over again or worse, and many believe the tea party is worse, so this is what happens.

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At 5/4/11 09:41 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 5/3/11 10:19 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I like the bit were democrats think that because republcians are idiots, it means obama is a good president.

Yeah, I saw the saddest protest a few days back. You know, the one where people paid something like 7 grand (or more) to go to a White House dinner, sing a protest song to Obama that caps with "but we're still voting for you because we have no better option".

you have NO IDEA how horribly staged that sounds. I mean, this sounds like outright brainwashing material for the media to show on TV. and of course, this will be the mantra I have to listen to for the next year and a half. Kind of reminds me of this, actually.

"Obama might not be what you want, but there is no viable alternative!"

my favorite part is the fact Obama is grinning and laughing about the whole thing. That is one quality I do like about the guy, is he doesn't get too visibly upset... in front of the cameras.

and of COURSE they'll vote for him in 2012. Conservatives don't take too kindly to treason.

The thing that puzzles the hell out of me is, why is this not front page news?! This story has yet to appear in any of the major networks... bin Laden's death is big news, sure, but this is propaganda material at its finest!

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Well, everyone, this was one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a long time. Just goes to show what happens when a bunch of stubborn, stupid, loudmouthed, unmoving Democrats get together with a bunch of stubborn, stupid, loudmouthed, unmoving Republicans and try to discuss fair politics.

That goes double for you, SadisticMonkey.

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Has nothing to do with his race at all actually thats the ignorance of the main stream media demonizing opinion in this nation today.

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I myself don't care for Obama because I don't care for any president in general, but I am sure they will always find some other excuse to get after him. If it is not one thing it is another thing. They are just assholes, you can never please an asshole so don't even bother trying.