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The Alternative Vote

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Bryony
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The Alternative Vote Apr. 22nd, 2011 @ 06:51 PM Reply

Yes or No?

So I was wondering what Newgrounders in the UK think of the proposed AV voting system and the subsequent vote for it on May 5th. What are your opinions? Will you be voting? Why?

Although I don't personally agree with some of the arguments being put forward as being necessarily the right ones for voting yes - like how people are telling people it will ultimately solve much of our currant parliamentary problems, I do agree with those statements as a whole (such as the need for distance from outdated Tory governments that previously caused havoc in certain fields and now have been voted for misguidedly or for the wrong reasons by many). I think that there needs to be voting reform and that AV will give a fairer outcome and just on the whole be far more beneficial to modern politics and voters.

Another thing bugging me and many of those I speak to is how both sides seem to be using figures of the opposition as reasons to vote for them when you can't just bend the truth to find blame for a select person or group of peoples. Starting the whole Nick Clegg broken promises thing is irrelevant - yes he's a hypocritical fool but so are all politicians, and besides this has nothing to do with any of them. It's your vote for your way of voting, you're not voting for politicians here.

Oh, not to mention the desperate blindsiding tactics being used to promote the no vote, and just plain insulting, manipulative promotional leaflets. I don't know if you guys all got those in the post, but if you did I'm sure you'll at least recognize that my kid sister could do a better job on paint.

If you're not sure what it is or what it's there to do:
Electoral Reform Society


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Earfetish
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 23rd, 2011 @ 07:01 AM Reply

I'm going to vote for it because it makes it far more likely that I, someone who disagrees with all 3 main parties fundamentally and probably always will, will actually have a point to going out and voting for a fourth party on voting day. So yes.

Most people seem to want to keep FPTP tho, which means someone can get elected on barely any more votes than their rivals and which encourages divisive constituency politics. But everyone hates Clegg.

simple-but-sandy
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 23rd, 2011 @ 11:40 AM Reply

Reasons why I'm voting (well... actually technically already voted due to the wonders of a postal vote) yes:
-The politicians seem rather irritated by it which is always a bonus.
-The No campaign so far is essentially "This is going to be moderatly more complicated than the current system. YOU'RE TOO RETARDED TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT WILL WORK SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL VOTE NO"
-The fact that quite alot of the No propaganda is very melodramatic, and seems to be running with the concept that the BNP will get 100% of the vote this way.
-A system where one part can get 25% of the vote and 8% of the seats (or whatever it was) seems a tad massively broken if you ask me.


Good morrow to you, Magistrate!

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simple-but-sandy
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 23rd, 2011 @ 11:43 AM Reply

THE DOUBLE POST MONSTER STRIKES AGAIN RAAARRGGHHH.

Mostly because I forgot to mention this just now:
From what I've gathered (though I may be massively wrong on this) the referendum is going to tell MP's how their constituents would like them to vote on the actual bill itself. So, knowing politics in this country, I can imagine a lot of constitencies voting "Yes" in quite large numbers, only for the MP in question to turn around and vote "No" just because their party/whip told them to.

POLITICS IS BROKEN PLZ FIX.


Good morrow to you, Magistrate!

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BumFodder
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 23rd, 2011 @ 04:12 PM Reply

I remember I got a leaflet about this the other day about voting no. It was so poorly made I actually laughed. It was just using logical fallacies and thinly veiled insults to make you vote no. If these are the people who want you to vote no then I would vote yes. The current voting system is quite unfair and makes it hard to budge the big 2 parties.

Bryony
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 23rd, 2011 @ 04:14 PM Reply

Yeah basically their argument is that it's too complicated. We only have to vote 1-5, not count and work out the bloody thing. And besides, I don't want people who can't get their heads around a voting system running the country anyway.


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elcriz000
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 24th, 2011 @ 11:02 PM Reply

If i was 18, (next year) i would vote for it, the system has got to be changed, to me, the AV is a more fairer and just way than the current voting system.


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Ledgey
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 25th, 2011 @ 06:33 PM Reply

The arguments against are so ridiculous and damaging that this referendum is nothing short of a farce. The idea that it is too complicated is simply ridiculous, I mean who would find it hard to preferential vote?

Secondly, their argument that it costs too much is completely false and is incredibly defamatory. This seems to be their main argument considering the whole "she needs a maternity ward, not an AV system" campaign and yet it is completely baseless. It will not cost us anywhere near what they're quoting.

AV is not an ideal system (STV would be better), but it is far far better than FPTP. The Conservatives elect their own leader using AV, so surely they must think it's the best way to get a representative outcome? Unfortunately they're campaigning against it so they can hold on to their only chance of achieving a majority, even though it's completely unrepresentative and isn't what the electorate chose. Same with those in Labour who disagree with it.

Tis just a shame that if we do lose, it's down to a dirty campaign rather than anything else... but either way, I'm counting on a low turnout.

Anyone who is interested in how AV will affect their constituency, check out: http://www.voterpower.org.uk/


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LazyPint
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 25th, 2011 @ 06:42 PM Reply

At 4/25/11 06:33 PM, Ledgey wrote: either way, I'm counting on a low turnout.

Everyone seems to be counting on a low turnout, which we usually get in Britain, why do we suck at voting so much?

I'll be voting yes because I'm not so keen on FPTP, but I think the AV system does seem a bit more complex than it needs to be. Why couldn't they use a system similar to ours in Scotland, with two separate votes?


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Gario
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 25th, 2011 @ 06:55 PM Reply

Voting will always be flawed, and there's nothing you can do about it.

For those that don't want to read it, it's the mathematical proof that no matter how you slice it, you absolutely cannot form a voting system that actually works without any flaws, specifically...

Non-dictatorship
Unrestricted domain
Independence of irrelevant alternatives (that's the problem with the current system, btw)
Pareto efficiency

If you make a change to fix IIA, you MUST accept the fact that you'll face problems with an Unrestricted Domain (There can be as many people running as needed - by the way, that's the issue that the Two Party system suffers from) or Pareto Efficiency (your vote will actually help the candidate you're voting for - that's the issue with the 'alternative method' presented). It will suffer from none of these problems if (and only if) the given voting method is a dictatorship (meaning that there is only one vote). Change it to a different system and you'll end up moving from one problem to another - it is physically impossible to avoid that.

Sorry, you just gotta deal with it.


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LordZeebmork
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 25th, 2011 @ 09:21 PM Reply

At 4/25/11 06:55 PM, Gario wrote: Sorry, you just gotta deal with it.

So? All voting systems are broken, but some are more broken than others.


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Dogbert581
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 04:41 AM Reply

I'm voting no, because tbh to me it seems like a waste of time restructuring the entire system. I also read somewhere on BBC news (if I can remember exactly where I'll post a link) that in Australia (the only major country to use AV) 99% of the results would have been exactly the same if First Passed the Post was used.

One of the arguments the no group is making is that it will eliminate safe seats and thus make the MPs more accountable since they need to get 50% of the vote. There are a lot of seats in the UK where the current MP already holds over 50% of the vote thus meaning AV will have little to no effect in making the MP work for his vote.

Gario
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 11:33 AM Reply

At 4/25/11 09:21 PM, LordZeebmork wrote:
At 4/25/11 06:55 PM, Gario wrote: Sorry, you just gotta deal with it.
So? All voting systems are broken, but some are more broken than others.

*shrugs* Pretty much. More accurately, all systems are equally broken, but some people prefer some flaws over others.


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Ledgey
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 12:34 PM Reply

At 4/26/11 04:41 AM, Dogbert581 wrote: I'm voting no, because tbh to me it seems like a waste of time restructuring the entire system. I also read somewhere on BBC news (if I can remember exactly where I'll post a link) that in Australia (the only major country to use AV) 99% of the results would have been exactly the same if First Passed the Post was used.

Predictions show that here in the UK, the result would very much alter the outcome, giving the Lib Dems more MPs (that they should have, considering they get a quarter of the vote but less than a tenth of seats). I think it'd move them up to just short of 90 seats, which is an improvement.

In the case of Australia (Aussies, feel free to correct me), I believe that the reason they wouldn't have changed is due to that they have a stronger two party system than we have here (ours is only maintained because of the system, not the voters).

One of the arguments the no group is making is that it will eliminate safe seats and thus make the MPs more accountable since they need to get 50% of the vote. There are a lot of seats in the UK where the current MP already holds over 50% of the vote thus meaning AV will have little to no effect in making the MP work for his vote.

I think little over 200 seats have over 50% of the vote (according to the No campaign anyway) which means that only 200 constituencies are truly represented by their MP. that makes around 400 seats of people who aren't being represented properly. There are many seats where MPs barely scratch a third of the vote, nevermind 50%.

On a national scale, like I mentioned with the Lib Dems, they do not receive the amount of seats that they deserve. The vast majority of their voters are unrepresented and their votes wasted. I live in a safe seat with a low turnout, mainly because people believe their votes to be wasted, which is certainly true.


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Ledgey
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 12:40 PM Reply

*shrugs* Pretty much. More accurately, all systems are equally broken, but some people prefer some flaws over others.

Eh, voting itself is a logical fallacy. After all, we're technically voting for the 'best' candidates leading them to form a government of the 'best' people. Certainly not representative which is what it's supposed to be and definitely not fitting to democracy's description (more like aristocracy). A more democratic way would be to put together a government and parliament using a lottery system.

Nevertheless, it's the system we have and it's best to improve it so that we are all somewhat represented.


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simple-but-sandy
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 03:46 PM Reply

At 4/26/11 12:40 PM, Ledgey wrote: A more democratic way would be to put together a government and parliament using a lottery system.

I'm not sure what logic you're going for there. Care to explain?


Good morrow to you, Magistrate!

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Earfetish
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 04:03 PM Reply

"FPTP is ONLY suitable for binary decisions, e.g. "Cake or death?" If Chicken offered too, death may win due to split of cake vote."

aides
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 26th, 2011 @ 08:38 PM Reply

I should vote for it on principle because I believe in proportional representation

but I'm voting no to spite the liberal democrats and destroy the coalition, LOLZERS


A STRONG, PROUD, INDEPENDENT BLACK WOMAN WHO DON'T NEED NO MAN

Dogbert581
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 27th, 2011 @ 10:53 AM Reply

At 4/26/11 08:38 PM, aides wrote: I should vote for it on principle because I believe in proportional representation

but I'm voting no to spite the liberal democrats and destroy the coalition, LOLZERS

Thats a great reason to vote no....

Ledgey
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Response to The Alternative Vote Apr. 27th, 2011 @ 06:35 PM Reply

At 4/26/11 03:46 PM, simple-but-sandy wrote:
At 4/26/11 12:40 PM, Ledgey wrote: A more democratic way would be to put together a government and parliament using a lottery system.
I'm not sure what logic you're going for there. Care to explain?

Yeah sure. We live in representative 'democracies', whereby we're supposed to be represented by someone who is technically equal to us and thus can portray our voice. This is because technically we can't represent ourselves like the Athenians did (which was the purest form of democracy). This is opposed to the likes of Monarchy (rule by one) and Aristocracy (rule by the best). The idea of elections is not so dissimilar to aristocracy because we are, technically speaking, electing the 'best' people to represent us. People who know better than we do.

Naturally, this isn't at all representative of society and the only real way one can do that is to randomly choose people to be part of the legislator. That'd be the purest form of representative democracy.


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jonthomson
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 2nd, 2011 @ 08:50 AM Reply

vote yes.

while it's the better of two bad systems, there's really no sensible argument for voting no unless you're a diehard conservative.


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Iron-Hampster
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 3rd, 2011 @ 10:03 AM Reply

don't make the same mistake Canada did. Vote yes.


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HeartbreakHoldout
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 3rd, 2011 @ 12:36 PM Reply

So does anyone actually see the Alternative Vote getting in? I really don't see it. The arguments made my the Yes and No campaigns are totally ridiculous, as are the petty snipes from both sides, but the No campaign much more effectively plays upon fear. I can't see the majority of people embracing change, especially when they're told it will cost £250,000,000, and will give us a BNP government.

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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 3rd, 2011 @ 05:09 PM Reply

At 5/3/11 12:36 PM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: I can't see the majority of people embracing change, especially when they're told it will cost £250,000,000, and will give us a BNP government.

well, if idiots will listen to lies, then that's their choice and should probably be shot

- bnp will still only have a minority of racists voting for them and still win no seats
- of the 250 million that the no campaign says it will cost, 130 million of that is for electronic machines that they're making up as being required when they're not, and 90 million is for the referendum that is happening anyway. so that's down to, er, 30 million. big fucking deal.


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Earfetish
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 3rd, 2011 @ 05:16 PM Reply

It will cose 250 million because that's how much the Tories want to slash from the NHS budget if they can form an overall majority.

Ledgey
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 5th, 2011 @ 01:29 PM Reply

I've just cast my vote then found out over 90 voters in Stockport were given the wrong ballet paper... great to see we can still run an efficient election without hitch!

I know the polls are against the yes vote but that's reliant on a 100% turnout, which is doubtful to happen. I went to vote around 5 - 6ish and saw absolutely no one else at my polling station, which was pretty busy during the General Election. I imagine in England we won't notch up more than 30-something% turnout. But let's hope for a yes outcome!


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Earfetish
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 5th, 2011 @ 01:48 PM Reply

We can just hope that everyone who wants to vote 'no' doesn't care that strongly and thinks it's a dead cert.

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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 5th, 2011 @ 02:22 PM Reply

At 5/5/11 01:48 PM, Earfetish wrote: We can just hope that everyone who wants to vote 'no' doesn't care that strongly and thinks it's a dead cert.

That hasn't happened in my household. Everyone else is voting no, and my brother didn't even know what AV was until the other week.

Being in Leicester, I got to vote in a fun By-election too. Here's hoping the Loony Party get in!

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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 5th, 2011 @ 07:45 PM Reply

Looks like the yes vote will suffer a crushing defeat and the all the yes campaigning would be in vain. Nick Clegg will be damaged by the win of the no vote.

I voted yes BTW because AV is a slight improvement from FPTP.


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Ledgey
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Response to The Alternative Vote May. 6th, 2011 @ 03:36 PM Reply

Just some final thoughts on the referendum and the elections:

I'm relatively disheartened that the no vote won by such an overwhelming amount, considering that AV had a long period in front at the beginning of the coalition. I believe the result was a combination of many things, the slanderous 'No' campaign being one of them, as well as having the backing of the Murdochian media. But overall, it seems that we're just not ready to take the step towards democracy. The turnout has been surprising to say the least, especially in England.

Congratulations to the SNP on gaining a majority in Scotland, a victory probably showing discontent at Labour's leadership, LibDem's backstabbing and the Conservatives being the Conservatives. I'm not convinced that it's a move towards independence, but it's certainly a convincing victory for the party. The fact that the Conservatives gained councils in England suggest that it is the Liberal Democrats who are taking all the blame for the coalition; I can see this being the beginning of the end for the coalition, lest the Liberal Democrats sink into nothingness.


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