Be a Supporter!

Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits

  • 5,473 Views
  • 139 Replies
New Topic Respond to this Topic
Lorkas
Lorkas
  • Member since: Apr. 3, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 29
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 09:27:49 Reply

At 4/9/11 08:47 AM, Dew wrote: You could just monitor voting habits of users. Make the information available to all mods, or certain people, call them "portal" mods, than let these mods ban users from voting. It's not like the willingness is not there, I mean there are icon mods out there who've made 2000+ icons, for nothing other than tom recognizing their name.

Dude that would be exactly like the Soviet Union. NKVD agents monitoring people's opinions.


My topics when I wasn't an asshole...12
NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO STEAL AND/OR EDIT MY SIG WITHOUT MY PERMISSION

BBS Signature
Fro
Fro
  • Member since: Apr. 12, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 38
Filmmaker
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 09:31:39 Reply

Viva La Revolution!

Rally the troops Coop and I'll continue to do what I always do. Every person turns the tide so let's do it together! Turn the tide now and they'll run and hide forever.


BBS Signature
NekoMika
NekoMika
  • Member since: Jul. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 45
Musician
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 09:50:48 Reply

I'm behind this the full way but what if the user simply wants to deposit their points for the day and nothing else? Those users will just click on 5 random flash submissions and hit random buttons which I don't see as a big problem unless they would be doing this on the Under Judgment submissions in which case that is not so good. Also bookmarking this thread should someone make a new thread whining about something in the portal.


Request Reviews // #9 Reviewer // #3 Audio Reviewer

BBS Signature
Coop
Coop
  • Member since: Apr. 28, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 60
Writer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 10:15:55 Reply

At 4/9/11 08:56 AM, groundpwndr wrote: Hey kids,

Vote how ever you see fit.

That's what I'm trying to do. Open your eyes, engage your brain and actually read what I'm typing, before flying off the handle at me.

Don't let this racist commie bastard try to change the world.

I'm sorry, I'm nit sure where you got either of those ideas from.

His world is no better than the one we already live in. What makes his world so much better?

Perhaps I'm just trying to make this world a little more bearable?

Because he is a crappy mod?

If I was that bad a mod, Wade would remove my privileges. Simple as that.

Because he needs more points?

If I were after more points, I'd be encouraging users to spam shitty flash, which i can then Blam, to my heart's content.

Bah. Let him suffer like the rest of us.

What good is one man, if he cannot make a difference?

I say down with Coop the Poop, and all his racist commie crap.

Well, you're the minority, friend. I say come hither and let me show you the future!


Will it ever end. Yes, all human endeavour is pointless ~ Bill Bailey
News
#StoryShift Author

BBS Signature
Sheizenhammer
Sheizenhammer
  • Member since: Dec. 31, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 32
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 10:50:46 Reply

Way ahead of ya Coop. I've been handing out about 5 times more blams than saves ever since I started this damn account. And no, I don't give a shit how many of those blams actually lead to points. It may be harsh, but at least it's fair. I usually go for the smaller file sizes (because I'm an impatient fucker), and most of those tend to be the classic broken screens and 10-second-effort jobs. Granted, you also get some pretty cool external content flashes in the small ones, but they're in the minority here.

Anyway, I don't see what crying about it on the forums is going to do, in all honesty. Most of the major culprits responsible for the save-whoring aren't forum users, and the ones that are can very easily just lie about how they vote. There's no real way to tell if someone's B/P ratio is off because the things they blam pass anyway, or if they're one of the people making sure the crap passes in the first place. I'd be willing to wager at least one person already in this thread has said one thing while doing the opposite.

If this is to change, it'll take more than empty threats and idle complaining. Yes, that is all you, or anyone else, can do about it on the forums. The admins plainly don't care anywhere near as much as the users (as is evident by the fact that we all know they can see everyone's voting habits, yet haven't given a single B/P reset, that wasn't asked for, in years), and when you look at it from their perspective, it's hardly surprising:

This site gives admins money. More web traffic = more money. More flashes = more web traffic. At no point was there any stipulation on what kind of flash generates the web traffic; ad companies don't care why anyone viewed their ads, only how many did. Ergo, there's really no reason to start being conservative with the portal's standards from their point of view.

Yes, the portal is only one of dozens of things here that actually generates traffic, but as far as I know, it's the biggest contributor, and if it were removed, people would eventually get bored of watching the same submissions, and with no new ones to keep their interest, most would leave. In order to keep the site financially viable, the admins have to keep adding new things, else we'd all get bored and go elsewhere, taking our web traffic with us.

Does this mean Newgrounds has sold its soul to ad companies? I doubt it. It's a sad fact of life that the price of living will always rise, so Newgrounds would have to steadily increase its revenue to match, even if they're only doing it to avoid going hungry. And since the easiest way of doing that is to increase the number of flashes the portal gets, you can't blame them for being lenient with what passes.

This, added to the fact that 99% of the crap flashes that pass are never seen again once they fall off the front page, is probably why you'll not likely see any major changes to the portal (I mean, it'd be nice to see all those crappy flashes go bye-bye, but not if they're actually helping to pay for the site in the form of more ad revenue). Honestly, I think there are some people who care too much about it. At the end of the day, it might be responsoble for giving the admins a job, but to the rest of us, it's just the fucking internet. So your opinions on what's good and what isn't aren't compatible with a flash list on a screen, big fucking deal. Go outside.

Quinny
Quinny
  • Member since: Nov. 15, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 28
Gamer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 11:10:53 Reply

The second coming of Viva La Revolution? I'm OK with this.

There's still loads that'll either vote 0 or 5 though, just saying.

TEABAGGIN' AIN'T EASY

English Gents Club | 5th on PS3 Trophy Leaderboard | PSN: KillSwitch_Bob | Sig by Ryan

BBS Signature
Cootie
Cootie
  • Member since: Jul. 7, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 43
Movie Buff
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 11:16:11 Reply

Just bump up the score required to pass to 2.50 I say. If it can't get a score that high then it isn't a flash worth watching I say. Having flash that can pass with a 1.60 is a big problem. Do you have any idea how shitty a 1.60 flash is?


For I am and forever shall be... a master ruseman.

BBS Signature
byteslinger
byteslinger
  • Member since: Jun. 11, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 49
Programmer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 11:22:25 Reply

Balance. Fairness. Justice.

That what all of this is about.

When Newgrounds was started, the concept was simple - let Flash and Music artists show what they could do, and let other artists and users vote and critique them. Good flashes passed judgment and crappy flashes were blammed. Points were given to show activity, and initially users were more concerned with fairness than status.

But over time, this system was corrupted by spam crews and stat whores who could flood the portal with whatever junk they could find - or steal - and then vote them to pass, just for points. The was no fairness anymore - just points. The process became hollow and Newgrounds became a dump.

The NGPD and EGB are here to restore that balance. As we stated before, it's all about being fair. Those 0-bombers and 5-voters defeat that fairness. We do what we do to counter those bad habits.

The current voting system on Newgrounds is defective and needs to be enhanced. Remember, this website is still PRIVATELY owned, and thus the owners can do whatever they want to protect it. They chose to share it with the general public, but that public can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.

As a programmer and systems analyst for many years, I would propose the following changes to the voting process at Newgrounds:

1) No more anonymous voting. You want to vote, create an account.

2) No more than 5 accounts from any IP address.

3) For accounts less than 3 months old or less than 500 b/p, you will be limited to vote on each flash just once, and your vote weight is 0.5 votes. Once you have been active longer, your voting power will increase. You need to earn the right to vote.

4) If you have a garbage whistle, regardless of your level, your vote is reduced to 0.5

5) Not all Protection points are awarded once a submission passes. If it passes with less than a 1.5 score, it will remain as "borderline". Borderline flashes can only be voted on by accounts with "Private" or better in good standing; if the total vote level drops below 1.0, it is considered blammed then - no protection points given. But if it lasts a week, it will survive, and protection points given.

6) Voting multipliers will also be based on Blam / Protect ratios. The target ratio may change, but right now, it should be 2:1 Protect/Blam. No penalties for any specific ratio - but additional % points are given if your ratio is close to this . The system will reward fairness by increasing your voting power

7) Voting history profiling should be done on all accounts. Since every user's vote is kept on file anyway, a weekly / monthly analysis can be performed to spot users that only blam everything or only protect everything. In addition, the system can find potential bots - if an account manages to vote on every flash that ever enters the portal and votes to pass them all (or blam them all), that's something for concern. It could be a shared account (multiple people taking turns) or it could be a program. It would be up to the staff at Newgrounds to contact those users and make a decision based on the results of the analysis.

8) Voting is not a right - it is a privilege. For all of you who think that we're being "facist" or "communist" - well, tough shit. This is a computer system, not a government. You don't like it - build your own site. Newgrounds was designed to be a showcase, not a dump. If you can't play nice, don't play here. We're not your parents. We're not going to cater to your sense of entitlement.

Until some programming changes can be made to enforce balanced voting, we should all just take a deep breath, forget about the total stats, and vote fairly. Period. It's not a hard concept.

Been saying that all along. Will fight for it as long as I'm here.

That is all - time to get back to the front lines.

*Salutes*

PS: For all of you knuckleheads who didn't have the patience or attention span to read this (TL;DR) - well, I guess the truth hurts.


Proud member of the EGB |-Barracks Info-|-EGB BBS-|-EGB Website-|

BBS Signature
SlashFirestorm
SlashFirestorm
  • Member since: Jun. 14, 2003
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 40
Animator
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 12:16:41 Reply

I invite anyone who doesn't think that this is a problem to spend one day on the Portal. Watch what passes. Blank screens, animated .gifs, a shitload of horrible mass-produced clones of dressups and racing games, and shitty no-effort crap that has so little original content that is effectively stolen...that's what's passing nowadays. I've been active on the site since 2005 and it is, by far, the worst it has ever been. No spam group has ever done close to the damage that a bunch of stat-happy twats have accomplished by passing this garbage.

While I've never been as guilty of save-whoring as many Newgrounders...particularly a few of the most prolific and higher-ranked Newgrounders who manage to pull in absurd hauls each week...I did enough of it over the years to make me uncomfortable with my record. Too many times did I go to the Portal, see a shitload of new submissions, and rush through them just to get some quick points. Too many times did I see someone with 100 flashes submit some piece of obvious garbage but "knew" it was going to pass and went along with it.

Since I've long considered my main purpose on Newgrounds to be to do my little part in making the site a better place, I didn't think just not doing it anymore would be sufficient.

So yeah, like people have mentioned, I asked Wade to reset my 34616 B/P points to zero and he kindly obliged.

A few days later, I don't have any regrets over it. They were just stats, and they're not the point of B/P'ing or doing anything else on Newgrounds---they're just proof of activity, nothing more, and having a ridiculous attachment to something which is both meaningless in the real world AND on the site is not healthy. I let go of all those stats because the purpose of spending time on Newgrounds isn't to rack up tens of thousands of points, but to fulfill a function in the site's design---to act as a means of quality control and keep utter shit off the site. With my B/P reset, I can go forward with a clean slate and spend time on the Portal for the right reason---to act as that quality control, voting what I feel a submission deserves instead of trying to guess the result of everyone else's voting.

And you know what? I'm missing a lot of points. A lot of shit is passing that I could be getting points on. I could be a couple ranks higher already, and EASILY, by just buzzing the Portal every hour and hitting 5 on everything. But that's okay, I don't need to. It's not a race, it's not a competition. Somewhere along the line, a lot of people---including people who have been here longer than me---confused the points with the point.

This is something which must be rectified.

Unfortunately, while there are a lot of people trying to do the right thing and judging submissions solely on their opinion of their quality and effort, the fact is that those people are horribly outnumbered, and they're hindered further by a system that allows for a great deal of abuse to pass unchecked. Nothing can be done to stop all abuse, but much can be done to greatly limit it.

Improve your goddamn voting habits, you greedy swine. That's the first step.

But there's some things that need to be done on the site's end, too.

Allowing an account to only vote once on a particular flash would be a good start. It wouldn't help much in terms of the Portal, except to stop double-voting on submissions that are uploaded near midnight EST, but it would limit the rampant zero-bombing which has driven away so many artists from the Audio Portal. Oh yeah, and it'd make those pathetic squabblings over Underdog and TOTW more difficult, especially if this was expanded into not allowing anyone to vote on a flash they submitted or was a co-author on.

It's not like people will run out of things to vote on for experience, either. There are hundreds of thousands of flashes on Newgrounds and way more than five passed flashes every day. And if someone's really voted on so much that they have a hard time finding new stuff (bullshit...), well hey, there's the flash portal! And for people who just wanna deposit their EXP in thirty seconds and do nothing more on the site...well, I'm not sympathetic.

PORTAL MODS. Good fucking gravy, Portal Mods would be the single mos effective change of all. It wouldn't require many people---I'd say that anywhere between three and six people could handle the Portal with its current upload rate. There are many tasks they could be responsible for that would both improve the Portal itself and save Wade a good deal of time. They could examine submissions flagged as malicious or unsuitable and delete/clear them in short order. They could delete fileswaps as they happen---though placing strict limitations on replacing the .swf would be an even more reasonable step. They could delete obvious shit that passes and (and this is important) doing so would remove the points of anyone who voted to protect it.

Obviously such a mod would need to be very trustworthy and have shown good judgment, since that aspect of their jobs would be based on their opinion of what 'obvious shit' is. It could be as basic as "no gif's, fake preloaders, blank screens, etc" or including things like "this is absolute garbage and any reasonable person would agree" shit. Even with the more basic role, it would be an immense improvement. And hey, for the sake of fairness, perhaps Portal Mods wouldn't be able to B/P while in their role. Reasonable enough, I'd say.

Obviously Portal Mods aren't as likely to happen as it would require a great deal more work than simply restricting accounts to voting once on a single flash. But it would be far more helpful. The people of Newgrounds have proven that they cannot be trusted to vote for themselves. If it takes a dose of totalitarianism to bring the site back to its former quality, then so be it.

Speaking of...I think that if certain people cannot rein in their pathetic stat-lust on their own, then it's time that their precious points be forcibly separated from them. I willingly requested my B/P nerfing, but why not apply the same nerfing to those who only vote to save every shitty flash they see? Wade has threatened it before, but AFAIK it's never been carried out (except to me, who literally asked for it). Threats don't help much, though it'd be better than nothing. I strongly endorse nerfing the shit out of people who have shown that their judgment is flawed---if you're not here to serve as that quality control I mentioned, then your B/P is forfeit, simple as that.

Telling people to improve their voting habits is a good step...perhaps, with some experienced Newgrounders urging them on, a few people will learn their lesson and make an effort to improve. But a lot of people won't just stop because we kindly ask them to. If they have to get a swift kick in the ass to get the message, then so be it.

We commoners of Newgrounders can only do so much, but we'll do what we can. Meanwhile I will continue to hope that the NG staff eventually implements measures to help.

The Portal is supposed to be THE center of Newgrounds, the core that the rest of the site revolves around. Right now it's a garbage dump. Everyone, from the newest newbie to the NG staff, is going to have to work hard to change that.

so yeah guys step up your fucking game


Slash's call
was absorbed
by the darkness.

BBS Signature
Minion777
Minion777
  • Member since: Mar. 23, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 38
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 13:00:10 Reply

I vote 5 on everything.


Monster Count: 2999 - Countdown to 3000
DO ANY OF YOU BOYS LIVE IN VIRGINIA?!

BBS Signature
Pride
Pride
  • Member since: Oct. 18, 2010
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 13:04:26 Reply

You have my sword!

I've been wondering when someone would create a thread like this (as I believe most of us have) for quite some time, as lately the amount of crap that has been passing judgment is just disgusting. There have been numerous games that don't even work that have been passing as well, and the main reason for this is because people either vote on file size or simply just want to quickly "5" something.

Here is a perfect example of this I found awhile ago:

It's kind of sad how hard it is to get a decent blam point nowadays, I mean it has gotten to the point where I earn the majority of mine by voting zero on stolen flashes and flagging em down. But heaven forbid you vote fairly ana blam a submission that is total crap or doesn't even load, as you will quickly be outnumbered by an army of sheep mindlessly voting 5 on everything they see. Nevertheless I haven't given up and still vote fairly, if people would just take a lesson from SlashFirestorm's (much respect for what you did man) book they would see that it is more important to vote fairly than to simply protect every submission (in the end it doesn't really matter how many points you accumulated if you earned them all by being a sheep).

Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter. Hopefully this revolution will get people interested in voting fairly again, in the hopes of stopping all this crap/cookie cutter games from flooding the portal.

Magical-Zorse
Magical-Zorse
  • Member since: May. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 39
Melancholy
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 13:46:51 Reply

Well, I come across a lot of crap that I vote zero on but still manages to get scores above three.


BBS Signature
Gamewiz
Gamewiz
  • Member since: Dec. 5, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 15
Movie Buff
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 14:02:38 Reply

At 4/9/11 12:45 PM, Dew wrote: lol, I didn't think the way the portal was run to be that big of a problem. Entire 1200 word essays are being written for such a simple situation. Like, this isn't some sort of mathematical algorithm or major uprising as you put it, it's just a very small situation happening because it's not being monitored.

Portal mods, that's all you need. Where everyone else seems to be getting the information or opinions based on this situation is baffling me. This isn't a hard problem to solve.

Actually, you'd be surised, spend a day in the portal, vote fairly, and watch how much shit gets through. All of those blank screens where you go "Well, this won't ever pass" probably will. This isn't to say that EVERYTHING passes, but the vast majority does.

I agree, you'd think this would be a simple issue to fix, but the fact is, there are so many people here, voting and stat whoring, that it's far more difficult that it would seem. For this issue to be fixed, we need more than just 20 people going "Hmm, this is true, I'm getting my shit together now." we need to get the attention of the majority of NG to really make the difference.

The following is what I Gamewiz want to add into what Byteslinger has already stated.
At 4/9/11 11:22 AM, byteslinger wrote: ******Deleted for brevity******

As a programmer and systems analyst for many years, I would propose the following changes to the voting process at Newgrounds:

5) Not all Protection points are awarded once a submission passes. If it passes with less than a 1.5 score, it will remain as "borderline". Borderline flashes can only be voted on by accounts with "Private" or better in good standing; if the total vote level drops below 1.0, it is considered blammed then - no protection points given. But if it lasts a week, it will survive, and protection points given.

Not only is this good to really get flashes judged, this can help discourage "2 voting" or basically where you vote something a 2 just for the point, even though you know it's pretty shitty, but you think that it will get through.

6) Voting multipliers will also be based on Blam / Protect ratios. The target ratio may change, but right now, it should be 2:1 Protect/Blam. No penalties for any specific ratio - but additional % points are given if your ratio is close to this . The system will reward fairness by increasing your voting power.

When I first read this I thought you were talking about if your ratio is off, then you don't get the full voting power that you would normally get, which could really mess up some people, but after reading this (fully) it's defiantly a strong idea. Having the incentive to give more power to those whom give everything consideration. But I see an issue, because if you do vote fairly you should get the incentive, because some people could come on and vote on things that actually are of good quality and got get blam points, in a way this would penalize them Though I think this goes very closely with your next point.

7) Voting history profiling should be done on all accounts. Since every user's vote is kept on file anyway, a weekly / monthly analysis can be performed to spot users that only blam everything or only protect everything. In addition, the system can find potential bots - if an account manages to vote on every flash that ever enters the portal and votes to pass them all (or blam them all), that's something for concern. It could be a shared account (multiple people taking turns) or it could be a program. It would be up to the staff at Newgrounds to contact those users and make a decision based on the results of the analysis.

I think those whom that are shown to vote fairly for the use of this system should be given a slight boost on their voting power as well. as I said above with the "penalization" or rather inability to gain the voting boost for a good ratio. Rather, using NG bots to see your voting habits should be used.

Say someone votes zero an a bunch of submission, though he is correct about many of them, quite a good chunk of his zero votes are on submissions that got good scores overall (3.0+). This could show that he isn't voting fairly.

But in another case, someone whom votes 0 often is correct, but doesn't get the points as the submissions that passed has lower scores (1-2.5) this could show that he's just more "Cold" in his voting than the majority of other voters.

8) Voting is not a right - it is a privilege. For all of you who think that we're being "facist" or "communist" - well, tough shit. This is a computer system, not a government. You don't like it - build your own site. Newgrounds was designed to be a showcase, not a dump. If you can't play nice, don't play here. We're not your parents. We're not going to cater to your sense of entitlement.

Until some programming changes can be made to enforce balanced voting, we should all just take a deep breath, forget about the total stats, and vote fairly. Period. It's not a hard concept.

Been saying that all along. Will fight for it as long as I'm here.

That is all - time to get back to the front lines.

*Salutes*

PS: For all of you knuckleheads who didn't have the patience or attention span to read this (TL;DR) - well, I guess the truth hurts.

Well said Byte, Well said.
*Salutes*


Sometimes the best solution is, simply, a swift kick in the ass.

BBS Signature
morcov
morcov
  • Member since: Nov. 14, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 21
Artist
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 14:12:42 Reply

ZERO BOMBING

Take ifureadthisdie for example.
http://ifureadthisdie.newgrounds.com/fla sh/
Look at his flash scores and than watch them. He's been zero bombed from 3.50 all the way to 1.00. He's a bbs regular but I don't think he'll be to keen on submitting more flash.

byteslinger
byteslinger
  • Member since: Jun. 11, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 49
Programmer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 14:33:32 Reply

At 4/9/11 02:23 PM, Dew wrote:
At 4/9/11 02:02 PM, Gamewiz wrote:
At 4/9/11 12:45 PM, Dew wrote: lol, I didn't think the way the portal was run to be that big of a problem. Entire 1200 word essays are being written for such a simple situation. Like, this isn't some sort of mathematical algorithm or major uprising as you put it, it's just a very small situation happening because it's not being monitored.

Portal mods, that's all you need. Where everyone else seems to be getting the information or opinions based on this situation is baffling me. This isn't a hard problem to solve.
Actually, you'd be surised, spend a day in the portal, vote fairly, and watch how much shit gets through. All of those blank screens where you go "Well, this won't ever pass" probably will. This isn't to say that EVERYTHING passes, but the vast majority does.

I agree, you'd think this would be a simple issue to fix, but the fact is, there are so many people here, voting and stat whoring, that it's far more difficult that it would seem. For this issue to be fixed, we need more than just 20 people going "Hmm, this is true, I'm getting my shit together now." we need to get the attention of the majority of NG to really make the difference.
Lol wtf are you and btyeslinger talking about? It's like everyone is trying to spout their own definition on what a redesign to the portal should look like, rather than addressing the problem. It's like: "Oh corrupt voting, well let's do this and this and this oh and btw the way this would be kinda' cool to add" when you can easily just ban figures who are the problem. 100 people are doing it? Ban 100 people. 1000 People doing it, ban 1000. 10000 people doing it? Ban 10 000. It's not freakin' rocket science. It's ridiculous that a major problem should always have a major change. I agree that there is a problem with the way the portal works, but that doesn't mean we need to change every little thing about it. Not every widespread problem requires a difficult solution.

Hell look at the bbs, that's several thousand posts a day, and the mods do an effective job of curtailing any crap that comes on the bbs, and banning individuals who shouldn't be on here. What makes it so difficult to do the same on the portal? Nothing, nothing at all. You guys, especially the ones with the 8000 character responses are just over thinking a simple problem.

Okay, no wall of text now - just a few simple statements: If, with a bit of programming and logic, the voting process can be modified to help keep things fair, it should be done. Along with that should be Portal mods as well, cleaning up what the voting logic missed. There are weaknesses at both ends, and they both need to be addressed.

We can't change the way someone wants to vote, so we have no choice but to change Newgrounds. We need to make it more "aware", and we need more people, admins, mods and users alike, to really care again.

'Nuff said.


Proud member of the EGB |-Barracks Info-|-EGB BBS-|-EGB Website-|

BBS Signature
DiMono
DiMono
  • Member since: Sep. 8, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 32
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 16:14:04 Reply

Of course you realize, the best solution is to replace blams and protects with something else entirely. Rather than "2 or higher on a passing submission gets a save, 0 or 1 on a failing submission gets a blam," base it on how close you were to the actual score of the flash. If the submission passes with a 2, but you voted 5, then you clearly don't deserve anything for it.

Conversely, by incentivizing people to vote accurately rather than correctly, the odds of people randomly voting 5 on everything drop off substantially because there isn't anything in it any more. Instead they'll randomly vote 2 on everything, which will make it much easier to get rid of crap submissions because all those 5s that were keeping them around won't exist any more.

Hell, you could even keep blams and saves around, but make it so that you don't get a Save point if you voted more than 0.8 away from the passing score, or within 1.1 if you voted 5. So if it passed at 1.63 and you voted anything other than a 2, you don't get a point for it because your judgment was obviously WAY off. Meanwhile, if it passes at 4.3, anyone who voted 4 or 5 gets the point for it, but if you voted 2 or 3 then you clearly didn't watch it and don't deserve the point.

I think everything else could be kept exactly as it is, and this would fix the portal. No need for portal mods, no need to change any requirements, just change it so that you get points for accuracy rather than for guessing right. After all, it's a lot harder to be accurate if you don't watch where you're aiming.


Deploy the... it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... whoosh!

Please help fund my horror novel. I'll love you forever.

gamejunkie
gamejunkie
  • Member since: Dec. 16, 2002
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 56
Gamer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 16:25:03 Reply

At 4/9/11 05:51 AM, Coop wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen, Mods and Trolls. Let me have your attention for just a moment!

Please feel free to take all the time you need.

TL;DR - Fix your voting habits - watch the piece, rate it how you think it should be, not how you think it will be.

Read every word, loved every word. You sir are an asset to Newgrounds. Long live the Blam.

TailsPrower
TailsPrower
  • Member since: Jan. 9, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 18
Voice Actor
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 16:25:24 Reply

Pretty much nailed it Coop. To reiterate the points that have been made, the real problem is that people simply do not care about NG enough. The system's being warped and dominated by the self-serving attitude that only focuses on the stats rather than the maintaining the quality of today's flashes. They're blatantly a worse problem than the spammers themselves because so many NG'ers subscribe to this whole "token economy" mindset where the reward are numbers rather than maintaining a fair standard of quality for UJ flashes.

Honesty is not dead yet though. Efforts like these need to become more prevalent. The word needs to go around that the Portal is not just for one person, but for everyone. By statwhoring you essentially penalize the honest users for having a shred of dignity and integrity for the Portal.

The only thing I can add to the issue of the one-vote system is that it'll also directly affect the way people gain their exp level. I'm sure a lot of people simply vote 5 on their favorite flashes, or from the Top Ranking submissions that they enjoyed, everyday routinely to get the daily 10 exp. I'm sure people will eventually adapt to other methods, but it will cause an initial storm of mixed reception, as with just about every revolution haha. Also how would we deal with alt accounts that spam crews employ for forcing submissions though judgment?


Everywhere I go, there's a sergeant there.

BBS Signature
NekoMika
NekoMika
  • Member since: Jul. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 45
Musician
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 16:35:16 Reply

ITT: Watch something before you vote on it.

simple enough

Request Reviews // #9 Reviewer // #3 Audio Reviewer

BBS Signature
SpiffyMasta
SpiffyMasta
  • Member since: Mar. 21, 2002
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 31
Melancholy
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 16:48:10 Reply

At 4/9/11 02:33 PM, byteslinger wrote:
Okay, no wall of text now - just a few simple statements: If, with a bit of programming and logic, the voting process can be modified to help keep things fair, it should be done. Along with that should be Portal mods as well, cleaning up what the voting logic missed. There are weaknesses at both ends, and they both need to be addressed.

We can't change the way someone wants to vote, so we have no choice but to change Newgrounds. We need to make it more "aware", and we need more people, admins, mods and users alike, to really care again.

'Nuff said.

I think Dew's got a point Byte. If you look at it in this sense, every other part of Newgrounds has mods. The BBS, the reviews, the audio portal, the art portal. Why is the beloved Flash portal still without mods!!? I've been advocating this forever.

I agree with your proposed changes and Coop's especially when it comes to being able to vote only if you are a registered voter and eliminating the zero bombing problems. But I'd really like to see added mods to the whole thing for some more regulation. I get that Wade deletes flashes and everything, but his job should be overseeing everything, just like the BBS. He can't catch everything on his own, and the current system where users try to catch things doesn't work. We need a team of dedicated volunteers to do a cleaning up job!

I love how people complain that people should be allowed to vote however they want. There's a certain sense of irresponsibility. If you can't post how you want in the BBS, then why should you be able to post what you want in the Flash Portal. Or the newsposts, or author comments (that's another debate to have).

I just find it dumb that certain parts of the website gets moderation, but the most important and vital part of it doesn't.

Either way, let's all collectively stop being influenced by what we think is going to happen to a flash in hopes of getting some stupid save points, and vote righteously on the worth of the actual things we view.

phantomlassuk
phantomlassuk
  • Member since: Feb. 19, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 47
Gamer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 21:49:48 Reply

I agree with this so much I have seen all the posts here and feel the same .I thought that maybe a idea was to not let people vote till they have seen the entire flash. But that does not stop stat whore why are they not being stopped? it unfair to us genuine voters who vote fairly a revamp is need I agree.


Archer I'm a good shot!

i-am-ghey
i-am-ghey
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Online!
Forum Stats
Member
Level 42
Melancholy
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-09 23:03:27 Reply

At 4/9/11 04:14 PM, DiMono wrote: Meanwhile, if it passes at 4.3, anyone who voted 4 or 5 gets the point for it, but if you voted 2 or 3 then you clearly didn't watch it and don't deserve the point.

what if i didn't like the submission as much as the other users? or what if my standards are different from the other users? i seldom give 4's and 5's even if a submission is considered excellent by the majority, and certainly different voters may give different scores even if they find the submission equally good. you should take that into account as well.
we are allowed to rate a submission anything from 0-10 in a review provided constructive criticisms are given. why penalize users how rate a submission honestly? there shouldn't be any 'model answers' to how scores are awarded to flashes.

At 4/9/11 09:49 PM, phantomlassuk wrote: I thought that maybe a idea was to not let people vote till they have seen the entire flash.

some of the shitty flashes are more than 1 minute long. and it doesn't take more than 3 seconds to decide if the flash is worth saving or not.
you shouldn't force viewers to watch the entire crap before rating.


I am just a random user from a set of measure zero and thus am negligible.

DiMono
DiMono
  • Member since: Sep. 8, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 32
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 00:13:40 Reply

At 4/9/11 11:03 PM, i-am-ghey wrote:
At 4/9/11 04:14 PM, DiMono wrote: Meanwhile, if it passes at 4.3, anyone who voted 4 or 5 gets the point for it, but if you voted 2 or 3 then you clearly didn't watch it and don't deserve the point.
what if i didn't like the submission as much as the other users? or what if my standards are different from the other users? i seldom give 4's and 5's even if a submission is considered excellent by the majority, and certainly different voters may give different scores even if they find the submission equally good. you should take that into account as well.
we are allowed to rate a submission anything from 0-10 in a review provided constructive criticisms are given. why penalize users how rate a submission honestly? there shouldn't be any 'model answers' to how scores are awarded to flashes.

Look at it this way: odds are if you force people to vote honestly in order to get a Save, more crap will get blammed because people are trying to vote closer to the actual quality. Yes, some people whose standards are different will lose some Saves this way. But how many Blams are you losing now? I'm almost willing to guarantee that the number of lost Saves will be significantly smaller than the current number of lost Blams.

At 4/9/11 09:49 PM, phantomlassuk wrote: I thought that maybe a idea was to not let people vote till they have seen the entire flash.
some of the shitty flashes are more than 1 minute long. and it doesn't take more than 3 seconds to decide if the flash is worth saving or not.
you shouldn't force viewers to watch the entire crap before rating.

I agree. I can see this being sorely abused by people who make a really shitty flash that happens to be two hours long, and nobody would be able to vote on it unless they sit through all two hours of it. However, the current system is designed to prevent voting on something until it's loaded, but it actually just waits an amount of time that's proportional to the filesize. I don't think it would be too difficult to set it up so that it actually waits until the flash is loaded before activating the voting buttons; just have a session variable that shows which submissions have finished being sent to the user recently, and have the page poll the server until the flash currently loaded is indicated there.


Deploy the... it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... whoosh!

Please help fund my horror novel. I'll love you forever.

WeHaveFreshCookies
WeHaveFreshCookies
  • Member since: Sep. 2, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 31
Game Developer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 03:36:43 Reply

I acually vote zero way more than I vote to pass anything. And yet, I load up on protect points, but no blams to speak of. It's never bothered me all that much, but it is certainly an annoyance to have utter shit passing through a user controlled system.

AllReligiousDrunk
AllReligiousDrunk
  • Member since: Jul. 14, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 45
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 05:24:11 Reply

Someone hasn't received enough blams lately? ;-)~


onna site keikan/alt
«¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥» «¥»

BBS Signature
aListers
aListers
  • Member since: Apr. 19, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 15
Gamer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 05:56:08 Reply

I have voted on how the flash is for 4 years now (exept from clockdays.)


???-2004?=dark ages, 2005?=atomic betty era, 2006=red dwarf era, 2007-2009=newgrounds era, 2009-on= anime era.
What have I done with my life?
clock crew

BBS Signature
Sentio
Sentio
  • Member since: Nov. 7, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 53
Writer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 13:54:06 Reply

I'm not as active in the portal as I once was, and as such perhaps the extent to the problem has passed me by. I'll hold my hands up and say that I don't always watch a submission, though I don't feel that is a problem as the ones I don't watch tend to be the ones with vast file sizes from reputable authors that end up floating around the top 50 of all time, and that is purely because I don't have time to sit around and wait for my laptop to chug through a preloader for half an hour.

To counter this I do vote 0 frequently and rarely get the points for my troubles- in fact there are other submissions that I don't watch now from certain groups or individuals that routinely spam the portal/steal content- these get a 0 as soon as I see who has submitted it, and will continue to do so regardless of whether I get the points or not.

The biggest problem for me though is this idea that anything that you vote to pass should be given a 5. Why?!?! By far my most common votes are 0 or 2/3, but I use the whole range of scores depending on what the submission deserves. 1, 2, 3 and 4 are there for a reason (though 1 I rarely use as if it isn't worthy of passing I do everything I can to stop it with a 0), and should be used to reflect fairly what a flash deserves. In fact I probably give 5's less often that anything else, because only a very few submissions deserve it in my opinion.

Many suggestions have been made in this thread, but by far the simplest would be to prevent the voting panel from appearing until the flash has been playing for a certain period of time. This would force everyone to actually watch submissions and realise exactly what is being passed.

As it is I am taking a hard look at my own voting habits, even though they aren't too bad, and attempting to move towards a harsher outlook on what is worthy of passing as it is quite right that too much rubbish is getting through. Thinking back many things that I grudgingly give a 2 to now I wouldn't have done a few years ago, and I want to rectify that.


Buy the Newgrounds Writing Anthology
Sig by lebastic

BBS Signature
SlashFirestorm
SlashFirestorm
  • Member since: Jun. 14, 2003
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 40
Animator
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 14:16:47 Reply

I'm starting to think Newgrounders should lose their privilege of voting entirely. They clearly can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

This is a flash that was passed yesterday.

This is a flash that just now passed judgment.

Below is a quick comparison of the two.

This is by no means the only case of the same exact flash being submitted with slightly different colors or sprites. Not only do people need to lose their saves for passing this shit, but every single one of these submissions need to be deleted. You're not allowed to resubmit a blammed flash with no improvement---why should you be allowed to resubmit a passed flash with no improvement?

Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits


Slash's call
was absorbed
by the darkness.

BBS Signature
DiMono
DiMono
  • Member since: Sep. 8, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 32
Blank Slate
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 14:27:04 Reply

At 4/10/11 02:16 PM, SlashFirestorm wrote: I'm starting to think Newgrounders should lose their privilege of voting entirely. They clearly can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

This is a flash that was passed yesterday.

You think that's bad? Check out this guy's submissions. I'll give you a hint: they are identical, except they're palette shifted from each other. He's submitted the same game five times. I think I've called him out on it twice.


Deploy the... it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... whoosh!

Please help fund my horror novel. I'll love you forever.

Sentio
Sentio
  • Member since: Nov. 7, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 53
Writer
Response to Revolution 2011 - Voting Habits 2011-04-10 14:52:31 Reply

At 4/10/11 02:16 PM, SlashFirestorm wrote: I'm starting to think Newgrounders should lose their privilege of voting entirely. They clearly can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

That's a bit extreme don't you think? I happened to only be online for one of those two submissions, I watched it, deemed it pass worthy and gave it a 2. A perfectly fair 2 as far as I was concerned, though clearly that wasn't the case. That is the sort of submission that should be whistled or dealt with by admins/ possible portal mods, but you can't expect the average voter to know the entire past history of every submitter, and to know that an identical flash had been submitted before.


Buy the Newgrounds Writing Anthology
Sig by lebastic

BBS Signature