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At 4/24/04 05:05 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: People under 25 don't have the capability to be intelligent and mature and all that jazz?

And we go full circle again. *intensive emoticon eye rolling*

At 4/23/04 03:49 PM, JudgeSkvnkFUNK wrote: I always think it's funny when children (and you ARE children) think they deserve the right to vote. You see, as a kid, I thought I knew a lot about politics too. But then I got older, and realized that I didn't know half as much as I thought I did, and the only reason I thought I was so smart in the first place was because I was SO ignorant I had no inkling of how ignorant I really was.

You see kids, I used to think Rush Limbaugh was always right, and that some how if I made all the decisions everything would be better. But you see, later I learned about a little thing called "revisionist history". Most of the things you get told in school about history are half truths. The other half are lies. You just haven't LIVED through enough history to be able to tell the difference yet. A few basics:

The civil war never had to have happened. Lincoln completely destroyed decades of diplomatic progress, the southern economy, and any chance black slaves had of economic independence.

The Nazi's were actually just a reaction to the horrible treatment of Germany in WWI, just as the current WOT is a reaction to the horrible treatment of third world countries during the Cold War.

Most of the things accredited to american inventors are also accredited to indigenous inventors in other countries. Generally by a time a device is invented it's been under development for years by various different cultures.

America's only a great empire because we gave away free land to anyone willing to work hard enough to plow it. Now that we're out of free land, we're out of hard working individualists, and on our way to the crapper.

Middle Eastern people are infinitely smarter than we give them credit for. They act the way they do because they understand things about human nature we westerners could not possibly BEGIN to comprehend.

WHAT!? ARRRGH! I AM SOO SICK OF THIS!!! Listen: have you ready ANYTHING on our president in the past 4 YEARS!? If you have...i applaud you, but i have read 5 about our republican counterparts! I am soo sick of this...here's the things i have done to follow politics:

1.i have read the following books:
"Lies" By Al Franken
"Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot" By Al franken
"Downsize This!" By Michel Moore
"Stupid White Men" By Michel Moore
"Dude, Where's My Country?"
and right now im reading "Against All Enemies" By Richard Clarke

2. I watch CNN like all the time....literally, i have the thing on when ever im on my computer...which is all the time

3. I am a freak at following web blogs and forums like this

4. This one is the most important: I listen to Air America whenever im on the comp! listen to it on www.airamerica.com

And the civil war thing....Lincon dumped diplomacy when North Carolina literally just....seceeded

At 4/24/04 07:20 PM, zachomis wrote: 1.i have read the following books:
"Lies" By Al Franken
"Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot" By Al franken
"Downsize This!" By Michel Moore
"Stupid White Men" By Michel Moore
"Dude, Where's My Country?"
and right now im reading "Against All Enemies" By Richard Clarke

Looks like you're missing an overview of Bush's younger days. I'd recommend some Molly Ivins. She's great. 'Shrub' talks about his time as governor. I just read Lies myself.

Personally - I kinda space out when people start mentioning Michael Moore. But how's the Clarke book? Or O'Neils. Hmm.

ARE ANY OF YOU LOOKING AT ME!? LOOK! ITS ME! THATS RIGHT ME! I AM THE POLITICAL POTENTIAL THAT AMERICAN YOUTH HAS! I am 14 and im gonna be 15 in a few weeks. But besides that, the problem it not maturity, its getting them involved, our youth just does not know the horrible corruption and evil that runs rampant in our corporations, politics, and foreign affairs. We need to hold together to get EVERYONE to wake up, take responsability, and VOTE!!! The problem with most kids is that they feel scince they cant vote...they dont carry responsability

I have followed politics for the past 2 years, it is a passsion now, i bet more than the normal human can contain. I want to make a difference in this world, and i will do it by devoting my life and/or losing it for my country.

My plans for the future:

1. Join military and serve for 2 tours of duty
2. When leaving military, run for local office
3. If wins: stay in current office for 2 terms and jump rank to house of reps (this one will be easy)
4. Work with a passion for 3 terms in house
5. Run for prez

and if i fail, then i will try try again. There was a man who ran countless times for congress and several times for prez, but failed...you know who it was? Former President Abraham Lincon

I know it may seem foolish, but i have been working for months writing the first things would do in office (an no it does not include having all the adults to poop in their pants) including plans to the fiscal years, foreign policy, economic policy, environmental policy, and domestic policy.

In other words....NO MORE CORPORATE CONTROL!!!

At 4/24/04 07:30 PM, RedSkvnk wrote:

At 4/24/04 07:20 PM, zachomis wrote: 1.i have read the following books:
"Lies" By Al Franken
"Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot" By Al franken
"Downsize This!" By Michel Moore
"Stupid White Men" By Michel Moore
"Dude, Where's My Country?"
and right now im reading "Against All Enemies" By Richard Clarke

Looks like you're missing an overview of Bush's younger days. I'd recommend some Molly Ivins. She's great. 'Shrub' talks about his time as governor. I just read Lies myself.

Personally - I kinda space out when people start mentioning Michael Moore. But how's the Clarke book? Or O'Neils. Hmm.

I think Moore is kinda funny, but i JUST started reading Clarke's book last night...its kinda irritating with it all in first person, but i can live with it if i can get some great inside info on Bush & Co.

and as for O'Neil, im gonna get on that once i get my allowance ^__^

At 4/24/04 07:48 PM, zachomis wrote: ARE ANY OF YOU LOOKING AT ME!? LOOK! ITS ME! THATS RIGHT ME! I AM THE POLITICAL POTENTIAL THAT AMERICAN YOUTH HAS!

looks like someone isn't getting enough attention at home.......

Let me tell you something about the fires of youth: they go out.

At 4/24/04 08:40 PM, JudgeSkvnkFUNK wrote:

At 4/24/04 07:48 PM, zachomis wrote: ARE ANY OF YOU LOOKING AT ME!? LOOK! ITS ME! THATS RIGHT ME! I AM THE POLITICAL POTENTIAL THAT AMERICAN YOUTH HAS!

looks like someone isn't getting enough attention at home.......

Let me tell you something about the fires of youth: they go out.

right now i am trying as much as i can to just hand the answer to you on a platter....

At 4/24/04 11:02 AM, JudgeSkvnkFUNK wrote: Hmm..... I wonder what you're profile says?

16

AH.... THAT explains it.

I'm sorry, but i have to disagree with your brief explanation to why i shouldn't have a right to vote.

I'll agree that not every person deserves to vote, but you have to acknowledge that just because one day you turn a certain age doesn't automatically bless you with the infinate knowledge to vote.

I'm glad i got bumcheeks support on this (or so i think)

At 4/24/04 08:54 PM, pierrot-le-fou wrote: I'm glad i got bumcheeks support on this (or so i think)

Well he's underaged, duh.

At 4/24/04 09:15 PM, RedSkvnk wrote:

At 4/24/04 08:54 PM, pierrot-le-fou wrote: I'm glad i got bumcheeks support on this (or so i think)

Well he's underaged, duh.

My word! a 15 year old supporting this? What is the world coming to! Bum, I'm actually surprised that you would think on such a sophomoric level on this topic.

At 4/25/04 12:59 AM, TheGooie wrote: My word! a 15 year old supporting this? What is the world coming to! Bum, I'm actually surprised that you would think on such a sophomoric level on this topic.

I'm saddened that you think that way. I've spent a year and a half in the company of people who are intelligent, quick thinkers and more aware of life than many others.

I've got great faith in teenagers. I've seen them do brilliant things. We aren't all stupid. In fact, I'd say that the quantity of people who are immature, mature-ish and very mature is at approximately the same ercentages from 16-18 than from 18-25.

As I've said before, maturity does NOT come with age. Nothing does, except a pension. Sure, older people are calmer than teenagers. Teenagers have a lot of energy. But they can still make snap decisions, be biased and hate.

Knowledge also does not come with age. In a survey of American Citizens, when asked if they were in the top 1% of earners, 17% said "yes". These were adults questioned.

There are about 2 Million Teenagers from 16-18 in the UK. I will assure you completely that about 25% of them wouldn't even care about voting. They wouldn't vote, don't watch the news, and probably couldn't name our Prime Minister. But, then again, we only have 75% voter turnout anyway.

The other 75% of teenagers are no less able to make an important decision than those 75% of people who vote anyway.

Alright, let me pose a slightly different question: IF we lowered the voting age to 16, what would happen?

In my opinion, we wouldn't see that much of a change. I believe Liberal Parties would pick up a few more votes, because younger people are more liberal compared to older people, and not much more. I think very few would just randomly vote, and virtually all of them would consider the issues that were being asked of them.

Really, what do you think would happen?

At 4/25/04 05:25 AM, bumcheekcity wrote: I've got great faith in teenagers. I've seen them do brilliant things.

I've got little faith in teenagers. I've seen them do stupid things. Britney Spears comes to mind... *cringes*

Teenagers are the soul reason that Fred Durst hasn't been publicly executed yet. That little factoid alone is enough to shoot down the "lower the voting age!" argument.

Everyone that's under 18, don't worry - Judge can't attack me for being underage. I see he's been doing that a lot with posts involving said people (instead of attacking their arguments), but ignore it. It's an underhanded tactic used to undermine one's argument by attacking their ethos, or, their character. Once through with character assassination, who'll listen to you - right?

Judge, of course you're against a possible voting age amendment - you immediately assume everyone under 18 has no right to talk. For example: your response against perriot-le-fou was an acknowledgement of his age and nothing further, as if that answered every question to all the answers we had. You're lacking immensely in logos.

Also, underlying this, is your unending hypocrisy. You state earlier that I "knowingly use argumentative fallacies", but you just did exactly the same thing. Who's discredited now? God, I swear everyone in Skvnk is a bloated idiot.

I think this thread is over :P

...I am feeling a bit tired.

At 4/25/04 05:25 AM, bumcheekcity wrote:
I'm saddened that you think that way. I've spent a year and a half in the company of people who are intelligent, quick thinkers and more aware of life than many others.

Yes, I can still recall the feeling of the age; wonderful time to be alive

I've got great faith in teenagers. I've seen them do brilliant things.

As have I, running the country isn't one of them; nor would I ever want that responsibility placed in the hands of a population at odds with it's own hormonic imbalance.

We aren't all stupid. In fact, I'd say that the quantity of people who are immature, mature-ish and very mature is at approximately the same ercentages from 16-18 than from 18-25.

Never said the whole group was (I would count you as a member of a small group whom I would exclude from the mouth breathers). Before I agree with some of the maturity scale, I would need a clearer definition of maturity.

As I've said before, maturity does NOT come with age. Nothing does, except a pension. Sure, older people are calmer than teenagers. Teenagers have a lot of energy. But they can still make snap decisions, be biased and hate.

Assuming the last sentence is directed at the old folks. Disagree completely with the first 2 (laughing my ass off in fact, you will learn... in time) but generally agree with the rest. The key differential is the DEGREE of response.

Knowledge also does not come with age. In a survey of American Citizens, when asked if they were in the top 1% of earners, 17% said "yes". These were adults questioned.

And in a survey of 1000 pre-college aged kids in the southern US 20% couldn't find Canada on a map. Point? The American education system is failing the populace, plain and simple.

As for the income estimate - I can vouch for them, everyone likes to feel more important than they really are. Pretending to have worth in the one thing that sucks the life energy from your body day-in and day-out is about the last cynical laugh available in the rat race. Enjoy the last few breathes of free air. Life support doesn't come cheap.

Alright, let me pose a slightly different question: IF we lowered the voting age to 16, what would happen?

In my opinion, we wouldn't see that much of a change. I believe Liberal Parties would pick up a few more votes, because younger people are more liberal compared to older people, and not much more. I think very few would just randomly vote, and virtually all of them would consider the issues that were being asked of them.

Really, what do you think would happen?

We would have to count 2million more votes that, as expressed by yourself, wouldn't seem to make much of a difference anyway. Why incur the cost?

At 4/25/04 12:46 PM, Skvnk_Warden wrote: As have I, running the country isn't one of them; nor would I ever want that responsibility placed in the hands of a population at odds with it's own hormonic imbalance.

They couldn't run the country until 21. Not here anyway. YOu must be 21 to run for parliament.

Never said the whole group was (I would count you as a member of a small group whom I would exclude from the mouth breathers). Before I agree with some of the maturity scale, I would need a clearer definition of maturity.

Use your own definition. And remember, under different situations, people behave differently. A teenager going into a voting booth would behave very differently to a teenager coming out of a pub. The same applies with Adults.

Assuming the last sentence is directed at the old folks. Disagree completely with the first 2 (laughing my ass off in fact, you will learn... in time) but generally agree with the rest. The key differential is the DEGREE of response.

You disagree that adults can make snap decisions and be biased?

And in a survey of 1000 pre-college aged kids in the southern US 20% couldn't find Canada on a map. Point? The American education system is failing the populace, plain and simple.

I can only speak for the UK's education system, which I think is doing a pretty good job.

As for the income estimate - I can vouch for them, everyone likes to feel more important than they really are. Pretending to have worth in the one thing that sucks the life energy from your body day-in and day-out is about the last cynical laugh available in the rat race. Enjoy the last few breathes of free air. Life support doesn't come cheap.

Heh. Comes free here :D

We would have to count 2million more votes that, as expressed by yourself, wouldn't seem to make much of a difference anyway. Why incur the cost?

Why incurr the cost of voting at all? Economoics really shouldn't come into things.

At 4/25/04 01:42 PM, bumcheekcity wrote:
They couldn't run the country until 21. Not here anyway. YOu must be 21 to run for parliament.

Sounds like a good rule; now match with the voting age and it would seem to make sense.

Use your own definition. And remember, under different situations, people behave differently. A teenager going into a voting booth would behave very differently to a teenager coming out of a pub. The same applies with Adults.

You haven't voted yet have you? Some years are depressing, example your choice hasn't a chance in Hell of making a difference (the crying drunk), some carry a potential chance that your personal fave might make it (the lover), and some years the mud slinging has just gone on too long (the fighter). So the pub scenario is actually quite on the mark.

You disagree that adults can make snap decisions and be biased?

No, that was not within the first 2 statements delineated by a .
So it's in with the agreeing part, but immaterial; we already got the vote.

I can only speak for the UK's education system, which I think is doing a pretty good job.

How's the coverage of the electoral process, levels of gov't and the current issues regarding upcoming elections?

Heh. Comes free here :D

Nonsense, I have seen a lot of poor blokes in London. Missed the smilie face on those grimy mugs.

Why incurr the cost of voting at all? Economoics really shouldn't come into things.

Process to date is manual. People are required to count each and every ballot. If we need to add a significant populace, I think it should be for a significant purpose. I don't view voting so much as a right, but rather a responsibility. I would not be overly happy with the thought that someone who:

Isn't liable for military service
Doesn't own their own property
Probably doesn't have kids (or at least kids they are supporting)
Doesn't have an established career (McD's doesn't count)
Can't run for office
and may/maynot be influence to some degree by MTV

should have the same value of vote as someone who does bare the above responsibilities.

Warden, you listed at the bottom of your post several aspects that differentiate responsibilites from that of a 16 year old to that of an 18 year old and didn't want those who didn't have those responsibilites to vote the same as those that do. I agree.

So why in the world do you think the reverse shouldn't be true? Why are 16 year olds forced to pay an income tax that they have absolutely no say as to where it ends up? Why can 16 year olds be executed when they never had a say in the first place? For that matter, why can 16 year olds be sent to adult prison when, by everything discussed here, we can agree they're NOT adults? Do you not see an inherent hypocrisy here?

At 4/25/04 02:05 PM, Skvnk_Warden wrote: You haven't voted yet have you? Some years are depressing, example your choice hasn't a chance in Hell of making a difference (the crying drunk), some carry a potential chance that your personal fave might make it (the lover), and some years the mud slinging has just gone on too long (the fighter). So the pub scenario is actually quite on the mark.

I really don't get what you're saying there.

How's the coverage of the electoral process, levels of gov't and the current issues regarding upcoming elections?

Pretty damn good really. We're told not a lot about the electoral process, but informed that constituants are elected, make the government, and te party with the most members in the House of Commons yadayadayada.... I dont get what tyou're getting at with 'levels of govenment'. The issues are the only thing that we get from 4 months before the eletion. That's it. No news, just issues surrounding the election. You'd have to be dead to not know that either an election was on, or which party you were closer to.

Nonsense, I have seen a lot of poor blokes in London. Missed the smilie face on those grimy mugs.

Life support, I mean. Everyone has healthcare.

Process to date is manual. People are required to count each and every ballot. If we need to add a significant populace, I think it should be for a significant purpose. I don't view voting so much as a right, but rather a responsibility.

I think it is both. You have a right to choose who rules you. YTou have a responsibility to make that choice sensibly.

I would not be overly happy with the thought that someone who:

Isn't liable for military service
Doesn't own their own property
Probably doesn't have kids (or at least kids they are supporting)
Doesn't have an established career (McD's doesn't count)
Can't run for office
and may/maynot be influence to some degree by MTV

should have the same value of vote as someone who does bare the above responsibilities.

What does military service have to do with voting at all? A LOT of people nowadays don't OWN their own property. Many, many people rent it. Note I am counting people with a mortgage as owning their property. Kida also have NOTHING to do with voting. Career eh? Well, how do we define 'career'? Being a cabbie isn't much of a career to me, but many adults are cabbies.

Bum, I hear ya, however, when people in my college steal my iPod, I think we should RAISE the voting age even more. I tend to look down on High School kids because they are too pumped up on hormones. I'd make an exception for you to vote, but everyone your age shouldn't.

At 4/25/04 05:21 PM, TheGooie wrote: pumped up on hormones

yes, it makes me want to hump just about everything that moves :-/

At 4/25/04 08:54 PM, zachomis wrote: yes, it makes me want to hump just about everything that moves :-/

You might just have an emotional disorder....

At 4/25/04 09:03 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote:

At 4/25/04 08:54 PM, zachomis wrote: yes, it makes me want to hump just about everything that moves :-/

You might just have an emotional disorder....

might ?

Most everyone does

At 4/25/04 04:36 PM, bumcheekcity wrote:
I dont get what tyou're getting at with 'levels of govenment'.

Well over here we have Municiple, Provincial/State and then Federal with shared/split financial responsibilities. Each "level" has it's own electoral process and impact on the lives of the constituents.

Life support, I mean. Everyone has healthcare.

There is more to life than simply being able to breathe. Eating once in a while is kinda nice. So is changing your underwear. Both cost money (in a legal economy).

What does military service have to do with voting at all?

The elected PM or President serves as the Commander-in-Chief of all Wartime decisions.

A LOT of people nowadays don't OWN their own property. Many, many people rent it. Note I am counting people with a mortgage as owning their property. Kida also have NOTHING to do with voting.

Property taxes are directly partitioned and allocated to the Provincial Education Budget. Effectively, where I reside will determine which Public School I support. When this budgetary % runs as high as 40% of contributed property taxes, yes I think it makes a big difference as to how I relate to my elected members in Municipal / Provincial Govt decide how to spend my contribution vs someone who doesn't contribute a single penny.

Career eh? Well, how do we define 'career'? Being a cabbie isn't much of a career to me, but many adults are cabbies.

Please do not try to tell me that the majority of wage earners in the UK are cabbies. Anyway, as for the structured careers, I am referring to those along the lines that have complex enough pay packages as to include auto-inclusion scheme for insurance, union dues (may/maynot), tax from source, unemployment, health etc.

Yes I realize that there are a large % who manage themselves on part-time employment and do not participate in this type of structure. But I also do not think that these types of occupations give any form of stability to either the person employed, nor the local economy.

Back to the voting criteria:

Mandatory Education - This is currently not fully covered in most geographic areas I have surveyed. I would not restrict this to any particular age group or "school" going people either. All eligible voters must obtain material (online, by submission, through mail, whatever) to educate themselves regarding current issues.

Voter capacity - each and every cycle, at the time of voter enumeration, the test would be posted in an online format, available at postoffice kiosks and Internet sites, coupled with Social Ins or some other distinct personal ID code and password. Upon passing the basic competency test, the enumerated voter receives a passphrase (keyed to ID for user distinction) to present to pollsters at the booth. The vote cast is still private as this system would only be used for entry into the booth, not tabulation of the vote itself. The generation of the vote produces another distinct 1-way hash for user retention (in the event of a recount)

Criteria - Basically, yes I am biased as to who I think should be able to vote. I don't think inmates should have the right, nor the mentally unfit (clinically diagnosed), nor the above tested and proven incompetent. Only by matter of current electoral process would I prevent current <18's from voting, until the current chaff can be filtered. Then I think it is reasonable to allow younger, contributing members of society, informed in the process and issues, to cast their vote.

At 4/25/04 04:24 PM, NoHitHair wrote:
So why in the world do you think the reverse shouldn't be true? Why are 16 year olds forced to pay an income tax that they have absolutely no say as to where it ends up?

That is the current legal structure, you make money, you pay tax.
Don't want to pay tax, focus on your studies and don't take up employment until after secondary school has been completed (magically coincides with quite a few 18th birthdays, unless the people are highly capable and on an accelerated program, which usually means they are headed for tertiary education anyways).

Why can 16 year olds be executed when they never had a say in the first place? For that matter, why can 16 year olds be sent to adult prison when, by everything discussed here, we can agree they're NOT adults? Do you not see an inherent hypocrisy here?

The fundamental point is: If you are responsible enough to partake in the activity, then you must also be responsible enough to accept the consequences.

This does not mean, however, that laws should be bent to a particular whim, simple because a minority wish it. That wouldn't be democratic now, would it?

Oh man, youre like a friggin broken record player

Keep the voting age where it is. Just lower the age for legalized drinking. =D

At 4/26/04 12:21 PM, zachomis wrote: Oh man, youre like a friggin broken record player

Words from a future leader:

i wouldhave given u a 5...but the banana didnt dance and sing so i blammd it :P

that was soo bad, u should be shot! u are a pathetic example of a human being. i hope that u didnt spend more than 2 hours on that, if u did then u have no-life and i will declare to the government that u are a waste of food, money, and sperm. and that u should be ground up and fed to livestock...HOW DO U LIKE THAT U SICK FREAK!!!

Conclusion: Hang yourself, cuz u have no imagination.

it was good, but not foamy good. so BLAM

this is shit and u need to submit wisely. FLASH NOOB!!!!! BLAM

In short, you seem to have mastered the all too present and wasted technique of mudslinging, filling public space with non-specific platitudes and cute catch phrases and basically achieved all of the necessary drawbacks of a politician, without developing a strong base from which to preach, establishing a record of public service or building a name for yourself.

I would say growup, but that will come in due time. For the duration, I shall sit comfortably in my home, paying my taxes, and pondering the current state of politics without ever having to worry about your vote for the next 2 elections.

ok fine, im not gonna lie and defend myself on that one, i do have immature reviews at times...but you are taking this away from the issue