United States Government Shutdown?!

[Gunner-D]

OK, so if we don't raise the debt ceiling.. the government is going to 'shutdown'?

So what are they going to do? Turn off the utilities, lock the doors, stop paying employees? Are the Capitol Building and White House going into foreclosure?

And by the time Republicans go "Oh no! What have we done!?!" , they won't be able to go back and fix the situation because the government would already have been shutdown!

C'mon, give me a break...

It is hard to believe that the 'restart' protocol is anything more than just another vote to raise the debt ceiling after a day or two after the U.S. supposedly defaults on their loans, all the while politicians take this vacation to get some major media time selling their 'solution' to avoid the U.S. coming to the brink of financial disaster again. Nothing more, nothing less.

I mean, everyone knows the way out of this fiscal mess is to make extreme budget cuts that no federal politician is willing to stamp their name on, but is anyone else sensing that this 'government shutdown' story is complete bullshit?

[KemCab]

The government won't literally shut down. It's just that there would be a financial panic.

[Gunner-D]

So the politicians have to make up stories that the government will "shutdown" to avoid panic?

I won't panic if the debt ceiling stays the same, it would actually make me feel better if we didn't dig deeper into debt. It would make me feel like the US dollar is actually worth something and our elected officials are being responsible.

The only people who will be in a financial panic are the politicians saying "OH NO! What are we going to do!?! We can frivilously and irresponsibly spend more of the tax payer's money!"

[Camarohusky]

The government will shutdown. All Federal Agencies will recieves no money to perform their duties for the day, essentially forcing them to stay closed. Things that are unfunded can stay open, like Congress in a special session.

[Gunner-D]

So if both parties are saying that the fiscal situation is unsustainable, that our debt is too high, and that we need to make cuts... why don't they solve this problem NOW, so we won't have to deal with raising the debt ceiling and risk a government shutdown?

[KemCab]

At 2/27/11 11:27 AM, Camarohusky wrote: The government will shutdown. All Federal Agencies will recieves no money to perform their duties for the day, essentially forcing them to stay closed. Things that are unfunded can stay open, like Congress in a special session.

It wouldn't shut down immediately; only if lawmakers fail to appropriate money for various agencies and programs -- which would eventually happen if we did reach the debt ceiling. The most profound effect of it would be that the bond market -- and the stock market -- would crash.

[Dawnslayer]

Wikipedia: Government shutdown

Thought this might be helpful in clarifying discussion of the topic.

Anyhow, I've been hearing certain activists voicing their opinion that a government shutdown might actually do the country some good. What are everyone's thoughts on this? In what way could a shutdown be of benefit to the United States, politically, economically, socially, etc.? Or if you disagree, what are your counterarguments to the supposed benefits?

[Warforger]

No if the debt rises then we will just have to print more money to pay it off, but the more US dollars there are the lower the cost of a dollar is, and so retire's pensions will become worthless as will people's life savings and so everyone will have to get a job, since there aren't as many jobs as people who want them unemployment rises and people starve to death etc. etc. That's called Hyperinflation.

Also you cannot just blame the Republicans as the Democrats are in office and it's still rising.

[MrPercie]

you make it sound like america will go from world power nation to a shit hole just overnight.

[orangebomb]

Something tells me that this isn't going to last long, because the longer it goes, the more that government agenices lose money, and stuff won't get done that should be done yesterday. This isn't the first time it has happen within most of our lifetimes, a similar situation like this happened in 1995, and that more or less doomed the Republicans in Congress.

If the government does shut down this time, then both parties are going to get the blame, more so to the Democrats, because they were supposed to do something about the defecit when they got elected in '06, and it has only gotten worse from then.

[Gunner-D]

I think that a 'shutdown'(which is almost a misnomer) could actually be good for those wanting the real deep cuts to get our country's accounts back in order. I feel like if Republicans, or whoever, are willing to hold the line and not raise the debt ceiling, they have to be committed to that idea that they keep on claiming got them voted back into the majority... fiscal responsibility.

Why I think the name government shutdown is a misnomer is because essential government employees (which are a lot), stay on the job, and all employees (even those furloughed) are paid retroactively. So social security, medicare, and federal mortgage loan applications are delayed... aren't these the things that we have to cut anyways to get out of debt? I think those against raising the debt ceiling should use the point that Medicare, Social Security, and federal mortgage loans are 'non-essential' in the eyes of the government... especially in a shutdown scenario.

One thing I should mention is that government shutdown has happened quite a few times in the past half century. And also, the last time in 1995, reflected so badly on the Republicans not because of the shutdown itself, which was over the debt ceiling and fiscal debates, but because Newt Gingrich told reporters he allowed the shutdown because Bill Clinton made him sit on the back of Air Force One (true story).

http://democrats.rules.house.gov/archive s/98-844.pdf

[Gunner-D]

Meant to add this to go with the link.

[IncendiaryProduction]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the federal government had to shut down for a couple of days in the early 90s.

[Light]

At 2/28/11 10:39 PM, IncendiaryProduction wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the federal government had to shut down for a couple of days in the early 90s.

Yes, in 1995, thanks to that dumbass known as Newt Gingrich.

[Gunner-D]

OK, so in my city there were about a dozen people (I presume workers) picketing in front of the social security office with signs saying "Furloughs hurt us all". Why would they be against this if #1 they get a 'vacation' #2 if they get paid for it retroactively?

[Camarohusky]

At 3/2/11 06:18 PM, Gunner-D wrote: OK, so in my city there were about a dozen people (I presume workers) picketing in front of the social security office with signs saying "Furloughs hurt us all". Why would they be against this if #1 they get a 'vacation' #2 if they get paid for it retroactively?

Perhaps because a majority of Americans cannot afford to miss even just one paycheck...

[SadisticMonkey]

The thing is that there's no easy way out.

If the debt ceiling is raised, this will make things easier in the short term, but make things all the more worse in the long term. There's no easy way out, and so accepting the pain now will make it easier than letting the system collapse in 5 or so years, when it will REALLY hurt.

[gumOnShoe]

At 3/2/11 06:18 PM, Gunner-D wrote: OK, so in my city there were about a dozen people (I presume workers) picketing in front of the social security office with signs saying "Furloughs hurt us all". Why would they be against this if #1 they get a 'vacation' #2 if they get paid for it retroactively?

Because, there is also overtime involved in doing all the work that didn't get done. So it ends up being more expensive in the long run to shut government down than it is to just run it to begin with.

Additionally, its not that raising the debt ceiling will cap what the government can spend, it just means it caps what they can borrow from other countries. There's a difference, and in the long run it means we'll be borrowing more and further in debt because we haven't paid off on our obligations.

Finally, shutting down all of those services actually really hurts everyone. If the TSA can't run, all plains stop traveling. If the U.S. gov shuts down, passports become a real issue and people get stuck outside the country or in it. There are other issues with transfers of money and all of the other things that government does.

It just, isn't good.

[SmilezRoyale]

As an addendum to what Gum said, there is a second debt ceiling which cannot be raised by an act of congress; the debt ceiling imposed on the US By creditors unwilling to continue to lend the US Money. If that debt ceiling is reached, which it must eventually [and probably relatively soon] the problems you describe the Government and by extension the rest of the United States citizen cattle having would be compounded [quite literally].

In theory refusing to raise debt ceiling no. 1 to pressure budgetary reforms and thereby prevent the US from hitting debt ceiling no. 2 is a noble act.

In practice of course, we are going to hit that second ceiling and there isn't enough political will to change it, especially because weaker republicans aren't willing to raise taxes to some degree and cut 'defense' spending in exchange for the massively needed cuts in the mandatory section of the budget.

Ironically, a refusal to scale back the size of the state and penalize the citizenry for their tolerance of it seems like it may end in the most extreme and retching form of 'Small Government' imaginable; a complete shut down of the Federal Government. Forget about smaller welfare and medicare roles, a smaller defense budget, lessened US Military intervention, we'll have Zero welfare, no entitlements, no defense budget, and no post office.

Now while i approve of the eventual elimination of the state, if the Federal Government were to disappear tomorrow the adjustment would be incredibly painful; as the economy and society had arranged itself on the assumption that the Government was taking care of all of the problems they left the Government in charge of.

[Dawnslayer]

At 3/3/11 12:20 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: no defense budget, and no post office.

The armed forces will still be operational as an "essential function" of government, and the post office is privately funded. Other than that, I agree with your statement.

[Gunner-D]

At 3/3/11 06:46 PM, Dawnslayer wrote:

At 3/3/11 12:20 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: no defense budget, and no post office.

The armed forces will still be operational as an "essential function" of government, and the post office is privately funded. Other than that, I agree with your statement.

Yes but until the budget is adopted, no one gets paid. The only difference is that the essential employees of the government MUST stay on the job to retain their job.

[Gunner-D]

The current spending authority expires April 8.

Anyone got the Vegas odds?

[Camarohusky]

At 3/28/11 09:14 PM, Gunner-D wrote: The current spending authority expires April 8.

Anyone got the Vegas odds?

My bet is that the Republicans will claim that (Translation Time) [the poor don't deserve any services whatsoever], and that the Democrats will say (Translation Time) [Defecit?! I though money grew on trees], and in the end there will be another extension.

[JudgeDredd]

At 2/27/11 07:27 PM, MrPercie wrote: you make it sound like america will go from world power nation to a shit hole just overnight.

Compounding debt generally gives the appearance of something being not what it really is. Until the debt stops climbing, no one can say what's hidden beneath the pile of IOUs.

[DragonPunch]

I personally hope it happens just to teach our politicians a lesson about what happens when politicians fling poo at each other and keep trying to shoot each other down instead of cooperating. I also hope that we only have ONE political party so said idiots can stop flinging more poo at each other. I know this sounds socialist of me to say, but it's the only way that I feel stuff is going to get down. Sure, we would all be affected, but the effect would only be temporary; like maybe five to ten years.

[MightyJackHammer]

That sucks.

[X-Gary-Gigax-X]

It's not going to happen, because the Republicans will blink on it. As usual.

[Chris-V2]

As if everything would stop running if the government fell apart. Farmers will still grow food - if even for themselves. They will want to trade some of their excess food for other items and services, people will provide these in order to have access to other basic services. The guy treating water wont stop - he wants his family to have clean water too. Same for the doctors, schools, even police and security enterprises. Supply and demand exists with or without government approval so don't worry, you'll always get your share of capitalism.

[ArmouredGRIFFON]

At 3/29/11 07:27 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: As if everything would stop running if the government fell apart. Farmers will still grow food - if even for themselves. They will want to trade some of their excess food for other items and services, people will provide these in order to have access to other basic services. The guy treating water wont stop - he wants his family to have clean water too. Same for the doctors, schools, even police and security enterprises. Supply and demand exists with or without government approval so don't worry, you'll always get your share of capitalism.

Since we have become institutionalized with Christian virtues, and capitalist social classes, creating an economic condition where human beings are Dependant on a wage system I think society will run pretty smoothly without the government in the USA.

Now if the government suddenly 'shut down' in the UK. That would be a bloody fucking nightmare, pillocks with council houses. Honestly.

[Chris-V2]

I don't beleive that supply and demand apply more to one part of the world than the other, sorry. Secular societies and faith based cultures still require food, water, shelter and security to function.