National identity?

I'm British and I write this thread with British users in mind. Nothing to stop other folk from pitching in though obviously, nice to hear worldwide views.

This is a bit of a testy(cle) subject. I'd rather not have this thread locked due to a bit of squabbling so BEHAVE YOURSELVES! This is also not a blog because I'm asking a question/getting a discussion going. I'm also sticking this in General and not Politics because I don't want a political response (see question paragraph below, stuff's in bold).

Online and in the British press (quite possibly my favourite TV Tropes page), there's recently been a lot of talk about standing up for and realising your British national identity. Typically this is associated with things like our last government's over-enthusiasm over faith schools and European rights laws that seem to 'infringe' upon what is supposedly a uniquely British way of thinking. Furthermore there's the question of opposing radical Islam, epitomised at the highest level by Mr. Cameron's 'state multiculturalism has failed' speech. You can say what you want about our Prime Minister (and I do, frequently), but he's not stupid - he knows that these worries and issues are very genuine amongst masses of people here.

I think I personally sometimes get caricatured as a Britain-hating communist, both online and offline under the right conditions. I think that's slightly over-the-top myself but that's not for me to really argue against here. For instance, much of the recent debate has involved a fight for the right to party, erm, I mean, to fly the Union Jack and the St. George's Cross from buildings as an official statement. My reaction to that debate... well, let's just say my facial expression somewhat resembles the 'Expressionless' emoticon.

Perhaps I'm underestimating the signifying power of a flag. There are some pretty awesome flags internationally. I even quite like the Union Jack - did any of you British users do that exercise in primary school where you drew the individual British flags, cut around them and then place them on top of each other to make the Union Jack? That was pretty cool.

But here's my question: when people talk about 'national identity', what's the core element of it? My worry is that it's popularly compiled of 'what Britain isn't'. I think that element has the potential to spiral way out of control, but maybe I'm over-emphasising that a little.

Let's think culture. What stands out about your culture, and is that important to your national identity? This is interesting to me because I recently re-discovered Gramsci (what did I tell you, Britain-hating communist) - culture is used ideologically by a higher institution. Out of interest, do any of you ever pay attention to those 'greatest Briton' things various TV networks/radio stations hold? I can't say I do, though I'm aware that an ITV search a few years infamously compiled a top three of Mrs. Thatcher, Robbie Williams and the Queen (hilariously culminating with presenter Kate Thornton scrambling to inform the audience, 'Unfortunately the Queen couldn't be here this evening...').

But these lists tend to always have the same gaps, as much as they are stupid and don't really matter. From an area I'm personally familiar with, there's hardly ever any filmmakers. Not one. Not even Hitchcock, who to be fair is most well-remembered today for his American work. No Lean, no Powell (even though Peeping Tom has by comparison been reassessed and loved since its career-destroying release), no Russell, no Loach, no Roeg, no Greenaway, no Jarman (to be fair, those last two are just personal preferences; my brother once came in while I was watching Caravaggio at home and he stormed out after five minutes, calling it 'pretentious crap'). My point is, I find them all more interesting to think of as British than 'not being British', if you get me?

Also worth pointing out: those lists tend to be overwhelmingly lacking in artists too.

On a lighter note, maybe British national identity is made up of quirks, like having a sarcastic sense of humour. Being crammed into the end of a CrossCountry service to Manchester Piccadilly, all starved, thirsty, feeling ill, with no room to move your arms even just an inch forward out of the fear that you'll end up jabbing someone's arse, we can all laugh and make snarkish comments when one minute the driver says, 'We'll be arriving at Birmingham International in approximately fifteen minutes.' and 'Birmingham International, the next station call in approximately five minutes time.' the next.

The sad part is that some seem to see these little silly qualities (charms?) as being 'under threat' too at times by extension.

It just bugs me because what with more recent attitude swings over different generations, people my age (and yonger than me) are now increasingly stereotyped as lacking in 'British values'. What are your feelings on that, especially directed at the kids here. That's not meant condescendingly. I'm a twenty year-old who frequently snaps back into the mindframe of a thirteen year-old. I would be interested in what makes up 'British values' on the back of this thread though. Can it be knowing all of the words to 'God Save The Queen' (I usually end up mouthing it to be brutally honest) or having a favourite Beatles album (The Beatles/White Album)? Or both? If exclusively the former, are The Beatles not icons of British identity then?

Is complaining part of a British identity?. Spoiler: yes.

I've probably forgotten something I was pondering earlier. This shit's long enough already anyway. Questions in bold and all that.

TL:DR:
Horrid Henry skipped home waving his certificate.
'Look, Peter,' crowed Henry. 'I'm nit-free!'
Perfect Peter burst into tears.
'I'm not,' he wailed.
'Hard luck,' said Horrid Henry.

[SnoopyChicken]

We let in foreigners but only so we can complain about it.
We can queue complain, if these were olympic sports we would get gold
We're pioneers in football(soccer) hooliganism
One of our favourite things is to feel persecuted(either by the EU, our government, our local councils)

At 2/27/11 10:00 AM, snoopychicken wrote: One of our favourite things is to feel persecuted(either by the EU, our government, our local councils)

I like this one, especially because I once described Britishness as 'perfect masochism' to an American exchange student.

[Shade]

TL;DR was TL;DR

[satanbrain]

Nation is a group you are born to and share common ancestry with. National identity means there is a acknowledgement in the nation as a uniting group. You can be part of the UK as a citizen but not part of the british people.

[BumFodder]

What I think is that why do you even care what the press thinks? Who cares what makes up a culture?

This is such a bad idea. A national identity is just a concept that doesnt matter at all. Sure people can play up on them but in the end its just an identity. They just evolve over time anyway.

And yes, TV Tropes is awesome.

At 2/27/11 02:46 PM, satanbrain wrote: Nation is a group you are born to and share common ancestry with. National identity means there is a acknowledgement in the nation as a uniting group. You can be part of the UK as a citizen but not part of the british people.

Yes, but what about the supposed correlation with 'values'?

At 2/27/11 02:57 PM, BumFodder wrote: What I think is that why do you even care what the press thinks? Who cares what makes up a culture?

This is such a bad idea. A national identity is just a concept that doesnt matter at all. Sure people can play up on them but in the end its just an identity. They just evolve over time anyway.

The thing is, it's not just the press. It's expressed seemingly en masse by lots of people who are independent of the press. Including on these forums, which is why I bring it up here.

I didn't want to bring it up before (due to three strikes and all that), but it was Marx who said that the masses will lean to extremes in times of economic trouble. Some say we're getting that now. The thing I'm getting at is that in Britain, a country that will always slide to the Right in such an era anyway, creates not only racial gaps (which aren't as extreme as they imply; the irony being that many 'non-British' folk identify themeselves as British due to livelihood and so on) but for me, a White, quasi-middle class guy, a generational gap.

My personal question is how do you claim a young person (though I'm not singling out older folk on the whole) to be lacking in 'British values' if those values are just made up of what's not British, which in the popular ring, it certainly seems they are?

And yes, TV Tropes is awesome.

[Leidolfr]

At 2/27/11 09:49 AM, Scarab wrote: People my age (and yonger than me) are now increasingly stereotyped as lacking in 'British values'. What are your feelings on that?

Firstly, that was more words than Britain is worth as a whole. Secondly, and most importantly, no one cares about britain, or their values of dominating the world until they were beaten, and magically becoming the good guys. So in summation, Britain, stop speaking condescendingly, and just speak, enunciate for that matter, use a "T" once in awhile.

[satanbrain]

At 2/27/11 09:20 PM, Scarab wrote: Yes, but what about the supposed correlation with 'values'?

Nation isn't necessary correlated to values, would you say that the values of the past never changed?

[camobch0]

I love the Union Jack. But I think that nationalism is a load of bollocks (excuse my British).

[BumFodder]

At 2/28/11 10:55 AM, camobch0 wrote: I love the Union Jack. But I think that nationalism is a load of bollocks (excuse my British).

This.

[Lintire]

We've been having a lot of discussions of the same sort in Australia - preserving the Australian identity, making sure that our economy is balanced, and fighting the good fight. Personally, after thinking it all through, I do think that it's either a load of bullshit and racism thinly-disguised or a legitimate concern.

Australia, speaking personally, is multicultural in nature, so any identity we have should figuratively be based around being a national hub for all race and religions to gather. A neutral place with a lot of surf and a penchant for roasting anything we can find on a barbecue (including our own coat of arms, which I'll get to later).

However, what I'm noticing is that a lot of people here are still reminiscing of the good old days, where half-drunk diggers pioneering the Australian identity to begin with was all fucking jolly. But in order for the nation's vision of unity through simply conversing, I'm really not sure that even glancing back to the "good old days" would do anyone a squat of good. The coat of arms was chosen for a very specific reason - neither of the animals on it can go backwards.

So in order to go forwards, you've got to sacrifice some of the past. And after thinking it all through, I'm pretty sure that I'm prepared to make that sacrifice, and that the "identity" of any country should not be preserved but renewed, changed, to fit with the changing times. Integrity is all well and good, but not to a point where denying our ample jobs to overseas workers means we're suddenly more Aussie then before.

I really don't know how this translate to the land of the Union Jack. Australia, for what I know, is really neither English nor American (I like to think of it as the best of both worlds :P) but I do think that preserving a country's identity has no place in the modern era.

[liljim]

Nobody flies the Union Jack from any building. Just saying.

[SomaGuye]

At 2/28/11 01:55 PM, liljim wrote: Nobody flies the Union Jack from any building. Just saying.

Anyone who does gets called a racist anyway.

[BumFodder]

At 2/28/11 01:58 PM, SomaGuye wrote:

At 2/28/11 01:55 PM, liljim wrote: Nobody flies the Union Jack from any building. Just saying.

Anyone who does gets called a racist anyway.

What are you on about?

[CharltonChinchilla]

At 2/28/11 02:00 PM, BumFodder wrote:

At 2/28/11 01:58 PM, SomaGuye wrote:

At 2/28/11 01:55 PM, liljim wrote: Nobody flies the Union Jack from any building. Just saying.

Anyone who does gets called a racist anyway.

What are you on about?

That is St Georges cross which sometimes gets the "your racist" treatment which in return I say "kindly fuck off". About the Union Jack being flown there's quite a lot in London especially in the west end but generally around the country there's not much to be seen. On to the OP I think National Identity is important, I think you should feel proud of who you are and where you come from that goes for every nation. I don't like Cameron but I think his multiculturalism has failed speech wsa spot on. National identity isn't as strong as I'd like it to be in Britain, that's just me.

[BumFodder]

At 2/28/11 02:12 PM, CharltonChinchilla wrote: That is St Georges cross which sometimes gets the "your racist" treatment which in return I say "kindly fuck off".

Never had that before at all

About the Union Jack being flown there's quite a lot in London especially in the west end but generally around the country there's not much to be seen.

That goes to show that it doesnt matter much anyway

On to the OP I think National Identity is important, I think you should feel proud of who you are and where you come from that goes for every nation.

meh

I don't like Cameron but I think his multiculturalism has failed speech wsa spot on. National identity isn't as strong as I'd like it to be in Britain, that's just me.

Its not really strong in many European countries these days, plus I dont really care what Cameron says at all.

[liljim]

Nobody flies the Union Jack out of buildings. 'Jack' is a maritime expression for a flag and therefore (strictly speaking) the Union Jack is a reference to the Union Flag when displayed at sea. The two have become more ambiguous in the dumbing down of everything over the years.

I know I'm being pedantic, but that gives you an idea of what I think about all of this "National Identity" rubbish in the UK. Anything deemed politically incorrect (however remote) is frowned upon and everyone brushes over the semantics that form a basis of what make words, phrases and their meanings, as if they existed in the first place to confuse or annoy everyone. I think the opposite.

[BumFodder]

At 2/28/11 02:24 PM, liljim wrote: I know I'm being pedantic, but that gives you an idea of what I think about all of this "National Identity" rubbish in the UK. Anything deemed politically incorrect (however remote) is frowned upon and everyone brushes over the semantics that form a basis of what make words, phrases and their meanings, as if they existed in the first place to confuse or annoy everyone. I think the opposite.

Its mostly the media just reporting on those things which get people going on about it. Really, nothing is different and it just kind of annoys the people who go "Who cares?".

[Sheizenhammer]

National identity is overrated.

I personally could not give less of a sideways-flying fuck about this country if I tried. The only reason I'm still here is the complete and total lack of any reasonable way out that wouldn't leave me financially screwed. To the people who think identifying with national traditions and quirks is important, I have one simple meassage:

You had nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of any of your country's self-defining practices. They are not 'yours' to preach about. If anything, they shaped you, not the other way round. Defending "Your" way of life from that of others is just dumb. After all, who's to say which way of life is best? Most of this 'tradition' shit is just mass mindlessness anyway, little different from the religion or ancient customs most nationalists openly spit on (while waving their country's flag at the same time).

If there was anything besides blind opinions to back up the supposed 'superiority' of one way of life over any other, there'd be no need to argue and fight over it. Others would eventually just see that it's better and change (which, by the way, was the underpinning mentality behind the British empire, and we all know what happened there). Doing things just because it's the 'British' way of doing something makes no logical sense if you plainly know there are better ways of doing it.

In other words, fuck this country. Fuck all the others too, for that matter. I'll live my life in the way which works for me, and if some outdated bollocks about adhering to national pastimes and traditions doesn't like it, tough shit. Results > methods, any day.

At 2/27/11 09:26 PM, Leidolfr wrote: Firstly, that was more words than Britain is worth as a whole. Secondly, and most importantly, no one cares about britain, or their values of dominating the world until they were beaten, and magically becoming the good guys.

Fair point, though I am just using here as an example because I live... here.

So in summation, Britain, stop speaking condescendingly, and just speak, enunciate for that matter, use a "T" once in awhile.

Younger I always had more of an issue pronouncing y-sounds as 'oiy's. Sky, skoiy.

At 2/28/11 09:02 AM, satanbrain wrote: Nation isn't necessary correlated to values, would you say that the values of the past never changed?

Oh, definitely not. That is part of my point after all.

The current brand of nationalism in use as a defense here comes in a few flavours. Everyone knows about the Islamophobia that's casually kicked around in jest at every Buckinghamshire dinner party, and yes, I am kicking myself for using Baroness Warsi's phrase.

What is interesting about the question you ask though regards another flavour of the topic. Since some time in the 1970s, British culture has been increasingly nostalgic. In fact, it could be said that 'being British', i.e. what I talked about in the post predominantly, is composed entirely of nostalgia that dates to World War II and beyond. A slightly more snarky conclusion would be that that was when Britain still mattered (which isn't really entirely true if you're going off of production and so on) and so if you want to care, then it's only fair if you give yourself the mental means to think positively about it. Obviously, as you say, the values have changed. Or the image of Britishness that's currently gaining more and more ground in certain spheres wouldn't need to go through with all of this.

But it has been hurled at many recently as I say. Extreme times call for extreme reactions? You guys tell me. It's not just young British people, granted, but they are the number one targets when it comes to that specific flavour, self-targetting nationalism. It sounds odd, but postmodern societies (and I certainly think that this is a postmodern society, albeit an incomplete and perhaps long-standingly unstable one for the sorts of reasons we may be discussing) allow for that. For every moment they fragment the very notion of nationality due to their globalised nature though, they make nostalgic differences seem more apparent. Criticising the youth of an area is obviously nothing new. Perhaps what I should claim to be most interested in here then is, why is nationalism currently used as the weapon to do the deed with?

This is a severely incomplete post, but eh, I'm tired and I'm not really going to think too much about it right now. For the record, I know that there are many other arenas you can discuss this in. This just interests me right now, today.

At 2/28/11 02:24 PM, liljim wrote: Nobody flies the Union Jack out of buildings. 'Jack' is a maritime expression for a flag and therefore (strictly speaking) the Union Jack is a reference to the Union Flag when displayed at sea. The two have become more ambiguous in the dumbing down of everything over the years.

I don't so much think of it as a case of 'dumbing down' here, but more of just another linguistic mutation that is now just acceptable because it is just that: a fair-handed linguistic mutation. The problem with that is that neologisms have only really come to the fore in such huge numbers in our language since the 1990s, so this seems like a relatively new development.

I would be interested in whether or not you consider the 'dumbing down' as you think of it as damaging to some degree, or a cause for concern somewhere.

I know I'm being pedantic, but that gives you an idea of what I think about all of this "National Identity" rubbish in the UK. Anything deemed politically incorrect (however remote) is frowned upon and everyone brushes over the semantics that form a basis of what make words, phrases and their meanings, as if they existed in the first place to confuse or annoy everyone. I think the opposite.

I treat this more political issue separately to your above paragraph.

Here I would be interested in hearing as to what you might mean with regards to 'political incorrectness'. I ask because, perhaps ironically, the phrase has multiple meanings, meanings which don't annoy me, but which certainly confuse me! I certainly however don't think you're in a minority regarding your last point. What I do think is that the reaction can go the other way into uncomfortable territory. 'Baa Baa Racially-Friendly Sheep' is satirical at best, just as I struggle to take any ounce of 'British pride' seriously when it's being used to deride anything personal to me.

But that last bit's important, at least to me. We're talking nationality, but we're talking about it in a strongly subjective way. Postmodernism likes to piss on logic like that, regularly.

At 2/28/11 02:12 PM, CharltonChinchilla wrote: I don't like Cameron but I think his multiculturalism has failed speech wsa spot on.

You don't think he was... I'm trying not to offend anyone with this wording, bait anyone? This is primarily why I said that while I can say all I want about him, he's actually not an idiot. He was supposed to be picking out extremism (which while a genuinely contentious issue - everyone, don't think that just because many of my view happen to fall on the left I therefore don't believe extremism doesn't exist, I've seen it used as a serious charge in discussions - was being somewhat overblown as a message to the home population in that time and place), and instead it's 'he's on our side'. Not that I'm doubting that he personally is, but remember that the major hypocriticism of Thatcherism is to promote 'British' values while also opening every international opportunity so as to maximise profit. The classic example is that since the 1980s, your tap water comes from a British reservoir... but the water itself is likely to have been owned by a French company.

This transcends the boundaries of what might immediately concern the individual, but while we're talking Cameron I thought I'd just bring it up. It's also too much of an unsourced rant to make it into Politics... or is that 'not enough of an unsourced rant'? OOH BURNED POLITICS

---

I think there were two other posts, soon, gotta work and eat. Not work to eat mind.

[toastburner]

I don't understand culture or national identity. The only thing that matters to me is Individuality

[CharltonChinchilla]

At 2/28/11 02:54 PM, Sheizenhammer wrote: National identity is overrated.

I personally could not give less of a sideways-flying fuck about this country if I tried. The only reason I'm still here is the complete and total lack of any reasonable way out that wouldn't leave me financially screwed.

What's so wrong with Britain then? All I saw was alot of bashing and "I'll live the way I want to." Which is ofcourse fine and myself don't do traditional British things, hell I don't even know what they are but I still care about this country and are proud to be British? What's with the hate on your own country?