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At 3/4/11 04:48 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 2/25/11 05:16 PM, Ravariel wrote: This should also humble those legislators in Wisconsin who want to destroy the power of unions, the very things that have made this country such a beacon of freedom and democratic power.

SO employers not being able to fire their workers for NOT DOING THEIR JOBS = freedom?

So workers not being allowed to work together to improve their conditions, pay and benefits = freedom?

what load of shit

Indeed.

At 3/4/11 07:32 AM, Ravariel wrote: So workers not being allowed to work together to improve their conditions, pay and benefits = freedom?

again, you think that people being legally protected from being fired for not doing what they get paid to do is somehow freedom, which is nonsense.

If people want to come together and strike/collectively bargain, they can, but at the same time, business owners should be able to, you know, run their businesses how they want, especially in a time where they're struggling the most and productive people in the private sector are losing their jobs, let alone demanding all kinds of raises and lavish benefits.

At 3/4/11 09:06 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 3/4/11 07:32 AM, Ravariel wrote: So workers not being allowed to work together to improve their conditions, pay and benefits = freedom?

again, you think that people being legally protected from being fired for not doing what they get paid to do is somehow freedom, which is nonsense.

You do know that what you are mentioning is onyl a small part of what unions do, right?

At 3/4/11 10:08 PM, Camarohusky wrote: You do know that what you are mentioning is onyl a small part of what unions do, right?

this is, in large part, what is being protested about though

I like Governor Scott Walker. He's a real ballbuster. Ruthless bastard, planning to drag the dems back to the state to vote.

Course, the problem with unions is the simple fact that they have outlived their real usefullness. back in the mid 1800s-mid 1900s they played a vital role in keeping the working man safe and decently paid.

Today this is not a huge issue. in most industrial jobs we have enough federal and state regulations and agencies to make sure "the boss" doesn't try to make you do something ridiculously dangerous, or allow you job to become too dangerous (there is an inherent danger in everything).

Today, Unions serve a less noble role in making sure the workers can band together and strong arm "the boss" into additional pay and benefits and hold the company they work for hostage to make sure they get what they want.

Today corporations are somewhat helpless (or completely helpless depending on state law) before the big union boss who walks up with a list of demands with the threat of shutting them down if they don't give in. They extort the company they work for to get more than fair wage (often making the company they work for incapable of competing against non union factories) and drive up the price of what they produce, and of course the cost is passed along to everyone else. Not to mention the quality falls to shit. ESPECIALLY in education.

The problem with having a union infest your place of business is (depending on state law) you may or may not be able to fire underperforming workers. This is a glaring problem in education. When I was in high school (2000-2003 to be exact) I had a teacher who would literally fall asleep during class. He still has his job. If i fell asleep on my job I would be in need of a new job that same day.

American businesses and government need to stand up to the unions and beat them down for the sake of public sector quality (especially in education) and market competitiveness.

Unions are fine when they do their job, make sure the workers are receiving a fair wage and making sure everything at work is kosher.... sadly this is all too often not the case. Unions are more along the lines of a "gotta hire me, can't fire me" safety net for workers who don't perform and an unfair pay raise for everyone in the union (part of which is funneled into the union coffer to pay some assclowns who make a job out of milking the workers for money and to pay off politicians)

Have you been paying attention to what's going on?
The unions have offered to give up everything that the governor wants, but he persists in stripping them of their right to speak, to collectively bargain. Without this, they can be pushed around by the governor.

Collective Bargaining isn't a right, civil or Constitutional.

24/50 states do not offer collective bargaining to Unions or offer limited collective bargaining.

All Walker is asking, in regards to collective bargaining, is to reduce it to wage disputes.

The reason Unions are so mad is because, under Walkers plan, workers would'nt need to pay union dues unless they signed a union card. And he wants them to hold yearly elections.

At 3/5/11 01:55 AM, Korriken wrote: I like Governor Scott Walker. He's a real ballbuster. Ruthless bastard, planning to drag the dems back to the state to vote.

Course, the problem with unions is the simple fact that they have outlived their real usefullness. back in the mid 1800s-mid 1900s they played a vital role in keeping the working man safe and decently paid.

Today this is not a huge issue. in most industrial jobs we have enough federal and state regulations and agencies to make sure "the boss" doesn't try to make you do something ridiculously dangerous, or allow you job to become too dangerous (there is an inherent danger in everything).

Republican apologoia if you ask me. Either that or someone hasn't read their revisionist history. For most of US History Unions were a small part of the work force, concentrated mainly in skilled crafts. Their numbers were only large during certain periods of US history; and often only came to be because the Government helped make it so.

Today, Unions serve a less noble role in making sure the workers can band together and strong arm "the boss" into additional pay and benefits and hold the company they work for hostage to make sure they get what they want.

Again, generally speaking, most Unions as we know them flourished in areas where workers were already, i wouldn't say 'overpayed' but in areas where the elasticity of demand for labor was low and workers earned more on average than the rest of those in the country.

Today corporations are somewhat helpless

Nothing really to add here.

Seriously though everyone, read this. It's amazing.

At 3/5/11 06:58 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Seriously though everyone, read this. It's amazing.

If only there was one reason to take anything that op ed blog seriously...

At 3/5/11 07:03 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 3/5/11 06:58 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Seriously though everyone, read this. It's amazing.

If only there was one reason to take anything that op ed blog seriously...

I must agree.

At 3/5/11 07:03 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 3/5/11 06:58 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Seriously though everyone, read this. It's amazing.

If only there was one reason to take anything that op ed blog seriously...

are you going to respond to it or just sneer?

Not that the article is fault-less, but there's a limit to how far a person such as yourself should be allowed to abuse the burden of proof.

At 3/7/11 12:19 AM, SmilezRoyale wrote: are you going to respond to it or just sneer?

Sneer I will.

Not that the article is fault-less, but there's a limit to how far a person such as yourself should be allowed to abuse the burden of proof.

This article looks like it was written to by two potheads in their basement. They don't source a thing. I trust them as much as I trust the next guy here on NG.

At 3/5/11 06:58 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Seriously though everyone, read this. It's amazing.

I hope they were being sarcastic, because when you have to rely on some pot smoking basement dwellers to provide a solution for the problems in Wisconsin, or even to provide an opinion as asinine as that, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.