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Libya's problems...

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KemCab
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Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 13:22:16 Reply

...were actually pretty much caused by UN sanctions, not Gaddafi, regardless of how crazy he might have sounded publicly. If it weren't for the sanctions, Libya's economy wouldn't have declined since the 1980s, and there wouldn't be any real protests there today.

Just a hypothesis.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 13:59:37 Reply

Which is exactly why now that the sanctions have been lifted for years do they decide to revolt. Had nothing to do with the fact that they are tired of Gadaffi's oppression and are inspired by other revolutions in neighboring countries that have not experienced such sanctions, nothing to do with that at all.

Quit your fucking trolling friend.


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KemCab
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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 15:12:16 Reply

At 2/23/11 01:59 PM, animehater wrote: Which is exactly why now that the sanctions have been lifted for years do they decide to revolt.

...except for the fact that if the sanctions had not been imposed in the first place, there would be much less reason to revolt, if not none at all.

Had nothing to do with the fact that they are tired of Gadaffi's oppression

Before the sanctions, Libya's GDP per capita was actually on par with that of the US. Oppression or not, they certainly were much better off than their neighbors. Actually, despite that, they still have the highest HDI in Africa.

and are inspired by other revolutions in neighboring countries that have not experienced such sanctions, nothing to do with that at all.

Also known as "being filled with all these silly notions of 'human rights' and 'democracy' and whatever, while using the autocrats in power as a convenient scapegoat." Never said this wasn't the case. Just saying that this situation was directly caused by US actions in the 80s and being under UN sanctions for decades.


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KemCab
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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 17:57:53 Reply

Actually, this sort of thing reveals the duplicity and hypocrisy of the democratic system.

In order to get non-democratic countries to adopt their slave-morality government, the democracies impose economic sanctions and issue statements condemning supposed human rights violations and radio their propaganda. Then when the dictatorships that don't support the West end up poorer and their people are angry, the politicians step in and blame that country's lack of democracy for all of its problems.

For example, the US still has an embargo against Cuba despite the fact that over half a century has passed since Castro nationalized American property there, and in fact continued to impose additional restrictions despite the fact that the original reason for doing so was moot. Why? "To promote a peaceful transition to democracy" by forcing it upon them lol.

Despite having a system all about free-choice and individualism, the US sure loves to spread its propaganda. (But America is actually an okay place once you learn to look past all the two-faced nonsense.)


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 20:34:14 Reply

Had nothing to do with the fact that they are tired of Gadaffi's oppression
Before the sanctions, Libya's GDP per capita was actually on par with that of the US. Oppression or not, they certainly were much better off than their neighbors. Actually, despite that, they still have the highest HDI in Africa.

That's because of the oil in Libya which is pushing their growth not because of things Gaddafi did or anyone else did.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 20:53:50 Reply

At 2/23/11 03:12 PM, KemCab wrote: Before the sanctions, Libya's GDP per capita was actually on par with that of the US. Oppression or not, they certainly were much better off than their neighbors. Actually, despite that, they still have the highest HDI in Africa.

Meh... All this shows is that there were some filthy rich people. I'd like to see the mean, the 75%, 25% and the average of those two.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 21:05:08 Reply

At 2/23/11 08:34 PM, Warforger wrote: That's because of the oil in Libya which is pushing their growth not because of things Gaddafi did or anyone else did.

I never said that Gaddafi did anything good. I just said that the US was to blame for the downturn in their economy.

At 2/23/11 08:53 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Meh... All this shows is that there were some filthy rich people. I'd like to see the mean, the 75%, 25% and the average of those two.

Statistics on income equality there are a bit hard to find and I don't really want to bother. But apparently they have some level of social security so it couldn't be that bad.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 23:29:18 Reply

At 2/23/11 05:57 PM, KemCab wrote: Actually, this sort of thing reveals the duplicity and hypocrisy of the democratic system.

I would argue that it reveals the duplicity and hypocrisy of politicians in general. If the United States were a monarchy or a dictatorship, we'd be pulling the same crap under a different guise. It's nothing to do with democracy; it's about power.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 23:30:56 Reply

Forgive the double post, but I thought people here would want to see this: Video

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-23 23:53:23 Reply

At 2/23/11 11:29 PM, Dawnslayer wrote:
At 2/23/11 05:57 PM, KemCab wrote: Actually, this sort of thing reveals the duplicity and hypocrisy of the democratic system.
I would argue that it reveals the duplicity and hypocrisy of politicians in general.

And who are the ones who run the democratic system? Well, in fact all people are duplicitous and hypocritical, politicians aren't an exception.

If the United States were a monarchy or a dictatorship, we'd be pulling the same crap under a different guise. It's nothing to do with democracy; it's about power.

Of course it's about power. All of politics is about power, lies, deceit, etc.

I am only pointing out that democracy is no different than any other political system hitherto; it is a form of asserting the moral legitimacy of a government to rule so that the idiots and slaves under it will support it. In an absolute monarchy, the principle is the "divine right of kings," and in a dictatorship it is the prevailing ideology.

In an absolute monarchy or dictatorship, this support is expected unconditionally and the individual is brainwashed or coerced to support it. In a liberal constitutional monarchy or democracy, it is the same -- but the support is nominally conditional. People believe they have "rights" and that the government is there to protect them and exists for the welfare of all its citizens. If you do not buy into this charade, you are still forced to accept the authority of the government ("the will of the people," lol) under the same threat of force you find in any other system.

At 2/23/11 11:30 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: Forgive the double post, but I thought people here would want to see this: Video

"the international community isolates the Libyan leader..."

"The international community" lol. It is a meaningless term that is used to convey the idea of the moral legitimacy of the majority, "the will of the world's nations" or whatever. Moreover, "the international community" refers heavily to the United States and its allies rather than any fictitious consensus of humanity. It's so contrived and duplicitous. I basically cringe whenever I hear it.

But wow, that's rather disappointing, Gaddafi seemed like a pretty cool guy to me.

I liked his dress taste at least.

Libya's problems...


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-24 00:58:09 Reply

At 2/23/11 01:59 PM, animehater wrote: Quit your fucking trolling friend.

How the fuck did this post not end this fucking thread?


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KemCab
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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-24 02:47:03 Reply

At 2/24/11 12:58 AM, animehater wrote:
At 2/23/11 01:59 PM, animehater wrote: Quit your fucking trolling friend.
How the fuck did this post not end this fucking thread?

Because I'm awesome and you're not.

Libya's problems...


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-24 18:26:22 Reply

Better than that, Gaddafi is petitioning the States for some help now, by blaming it on Bin Laden.

Perhaps he didn't get the memo that Dubya isn't part of the game any more...


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KemCab
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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 13:34:18 Reply

At 2/24/11 06:26 PM, Coop wrote: Better than that, Gaddafi is petitioning the States for some help now, by blaming it on Bin Laden.

lol

The international pressure on Gaddafi is almost sickening; people just can't seem to mind their own business these days -- which is ironic considering all the harm that the "international community" had caused Libya in the first place.

I like Gaddafi. He's an amusing character. Of course he's not that competent or inspiring of a leader, but I like his dress sense.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 15:41:24 Reply

At 2/24/11 12:58 AM, animehater wrote: How the fuck did this post not end this fucking thread?

Kem's point may not be popular, and heck it may be somewhat far-fetched, but it is pretinent and therefore wasn't trolling.

At 2/25/11 01:34 PM, KemCab wrote:
At 2/24/11 06:26 PM, Coop wrote: Better than that, Gaddafi is petitioning the States for some help now, by blaming it on Bin Laden.
lol

The international pressure on Gaddafi is almost sickening; people just can't seem to mind their own business these days -- which is ironic considering all the harm that the "international community" had caused Libya in the first place.

How? Wasn't Qaddafi responsible for a terorist attack on an airliner in the UK? Didn't he provided central American terrorists with weapons that everyone knew were going to be used against civilians? All this while not contributing much at all to the rest of the world.

Sounds like he's not exactly an upstanding leader. Also, he's firing on his own civilians. He's sending airplanes on runs aimed at his own people. He then mocks the Western World by blaiming the protests on Al Qaeda.

Qaddafi is reaping what he sowed and I, for one, have ZERO pity. Just like Saddam, he deserves to go.

I like Gaddafi. He's an amusing character. Of course he's not that competent or inspiring of a leader, but I like his dress sense.

If only that dress sense and arrogance wasn't at the expense of the people who are now rebelling against him...

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 15:44:39 Reply

The only people supporting him now is Chavez, Castro and Ortega which is sad if even Iran condems the attacks on civilains.


Well we were dumb enough to think it was gonna happen.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 16:20:39 Reply

At 2/25/11 03:41 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
Sounds like he's not exactly an upstanding leader. Also, he's firing on his own civilians.

Well If you looked at some of the civilian rebels they did have guns, so who knows if they wernt firing back?

of course if their firing on peaceful protesters then yeah thats wrong.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 17:16:02 Reply

At 2/25/11 03:41 PM, Camarohusky wrote: How? Wasn't Qaddafi responsible for a terorist attack on an airliner in the UK? Didn't he provided central American terrorists with weapons that everyone knew were going to be used against civilians?

Well, of course -- but the US response was to bomb the country to "teach them a lesson" (lol) and the international response was to impose sanctions on Libya. I'm not saying that he isn't a nut or a sponsor of terrorist groups. It's just that the "international community" (which really just means the US and its various puppets) has no moral high ground.

All this while not contributing much at all to the rest of the world.

Why does anyone need to contribute to the world?

Also, he's firing on his own civilians. He's sending airplanes on runs aimed at his own people.

Well, considering that they're essentially in open revolt, I don't see how he could refrain from doing so. And in all honesty there is nothing "wrong" about doing so -- it is probably the only thing that he could do considering that people in his own government are openly defying him right now.

He then mocks the Western World by blaiming the protests on Al Qaeda.

He should actually be blaming the West, not Al-Qaeda. But nobody's going to really listen to him either way.

Qaddafi is reaping what he sowed and I, for one, have ZERO pity. Just like Saddam, he deserves to go.

It has nothing to do with whatever "atrocities" these dictators may have committed against their own people though -- it is simply a matter of whether or not they serve US interests or not. Moral considerations don't really matter.

For example, the shameless hypocrisy of the American government is a bit laughable. They've imposed sanctions on Libya in order to put pressure on their government to stop the violence -- that is, stop them from using force to restore order. They're also considering military action lol. So much for respecting nations' sovereignty.

I'm not complaining about the government here or the state of affairs. I benefit from it. But whenever I read the news nowadays and people's reactions to it, I find it profoundly bewildering how most people do not really understand what is going on.

They're pretty much in open rebellion -- it's not like this is some crazy guy firing on just unarmed people. Gaddafi's actions are pretty sensible; he really doesn't have anywhere to go. He'd be lynched by his own people and probably tried for some fictitious crime against humanity elsewhere. And one moment people around the world complain that the US sees itself as the world's policeman, and another they are begging the Americans to intervene. There is no "international community." There is no "moral reason" for any other country to intervene.

It is rather baffling how so many people do not in fact realize this.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 17:35:19 Reply

At 2/25/11 05:16 PM, KemCab wrote: Well, of course -- but the US response was to bomb the country to "teach them a lesson" (lol) and the international response was to impose sanctions on Libya. I'm not saying that he isn't a nut or a sponsor of terrorist groups. It's just that the "international community" (which really just means the US and its various puppets) has no moral high ground.

Well we don't actively sponsor terrorists, or kill civilians. our hands may not be clean when it comes to world affairs, but they are definitely much cleaner than any state that openly sposnors terrorism.

Why does anyone need to contribute to the world?

If Qaddafi wants us to care, he has to contribute some sort of value. That does not neccesarily mean monetary or economic. If Libya choses to pick fights with America's allies and then not do anything to remedy it, Libya cannot cry about not recieving any friendly treatment in a time of need.

Well, considering that they're essentially in open revolt, I don't see how he could refrain from doing so. And in all honesty there is nothing "wrong" about doing so -- it is probably the only thing that he could do considering that people in his own government are openly defying him right now.

While there is definitely revolt, it is not a violent revolt yet. Until the revolt becomes violent Qaddafi is killing civilians.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 17:42:05 Reply

Here's a piece written by a Dr. Omar Ashour -- a so-called "expert" who obviously cannot resist passing his own moralizing judgments on the matter.

He writes:

The international community has a major legal duty towards Libya.

No it doesn't.

If generals and colonels such as Abdullah al-Senussi, Abdullah Mansour, al-Tuhami Khaled, as well as Gaddafi and his sons, were placed on international watch-lists or if arrest warrants were issued against them, many of their subordinates would think twice before ordering their troops to shoot or bomb.

Yeah, let's make these people scapegoats and war criminals for trying to restore order. In fact, this sort of nonsense is probably going to GET EVEN MORE PEOPLE KILLED, because Gaddafi or his supporters know for a fact that there is nowhere to run to if they give up. If the West were genuinely trying to help the people there, they would offer the man asylum or at least help him restore order under very strict conditions, e.g. no bloody reprisals or persecutions, eventual liberalization of the government, etc.

And this guy supposedly has a PhD. Hell, I can provide a better analysis of the situation than this clown.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 18:10:55 Reply

At 2/25/11 05:35 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Well we don't actively sponsor terrorists, or kill civilians. our hands may not be clean when it comes to world affairs, but they are definitely much cleaner than any state that openly sposnors terrorism.

Politics has nothing to do with morality. It doesn't matter how many people you kill (or don't) as long as you have your interests met. The fact of the matter is that every country has skeletons in its closet, every side has blood on its hands, etc. The idea of any faction having a moral high ground is ridiculous; it is simply a convenient little public lie that politicians use to justify their actions.

This is really nothing new. The part that stupefies me is that people actually still believe it even when the hypocrisy should be absolutely manifest to them.

If Qaddafi wants us to care, he has to contribute some sort of value. That does not neccesarily mean monetary or economic. If Libya choses to pick fights with America's allies and then not do anything to remedy it, Libya cannot cry about not recieving any friendly treatment in a time of need.

The economic sanctions were lifted years ago; in fact Libya has not been an active supporter of terrorism for a while now. They also have paid certain reparations and dismantled their nuclear program. It is not like they have not made concessions in the past.

The US simply doesn't care because it's not one of their puppets. In fact, if Gaddafi falls, Libya will be much more friendly to the Americans.

While there is definitely revolt, it is not a violent revolt yet. Until the revolt becomes violent Qaddafi is killing civilians.

It's pretty violent. And it's not like the protesters are all that innocent either. They've killed policemen and mercenaries. They even captured 50 mercenaries, locked them in a police station, and torched the building.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-25 23:24:49 Reply

At 2/25/11 03:44 PM, ToddM wrote: The only people supporting him now is Chavez, Castro and Ortega

Hell, I don't even know if these jackasses are supporting Gadhafi anymore, considering they don't want to risk being either upended by their own people, or worse, risk getting carpet bombed by the free world.

which is sad if even Iran condems the attacks on civilains.

This shows that Gadhafi and his family are more or less finished, but the disturbing thing would be if that he takes thousands down with him in a massive spasm of violence after the protestors peel his carcass off the streets of Tripoli. Speaking of Iran, if I was Khomeni or Ahmadinejad, I would seriously ponder over what is happening in the Middle East over the last 6 weeks or so, and either plan an exit strategy, or at least try not to piss off the people anymore.


Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-26 20:07:43 Reply

At 2/25/11 11:24 PM, orangebomb wrote: This shows that Gadhafi and his family are more or less finished, but the disturbing thing would be if that he takes thousands down with him in a massive spasm of violence after the protestors peel his carcass off the streets of Tripoli.

This just goes to show you how insufferably stupid humanity is:

Gaddafi has nowhere to run and therefore him and his most loyal supporters will fight like cornered snakes. The more political pressure that countries try to put on him, the more violently he will react. He will scramble to regain control of his country through increasingly brutal measures and whether or not he succeeds, more people will probably die as a result.

It's not like I give a damn, but if you were really interested in seeing people not suffer, you would not support actions like sanctions or trying him for war crimes, etc. It also shows the hypocrisy of people -- one moment the entire world is complaining that the US is overstepping its bounds (lol) by invading Iraq, and the next they are begging the US to intervene.

The idea that these events are "progress" is an illusion.

try not to piss off the people anymore.

"The people" are idiots and slaves. That's all that they ever were and all that they will remain.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-26 22:57:42 Reply

At 2/26/11 08:07 PM, KemCab wrote:
At 2/25/11 11:24 PM, orangebomb wrote: This shows that Gadhafi and his family are more or less finished, but the disturbing thing would be if that he takes thousands down with him in a massive spasm of violence after the protestors peel his carcass off the streets of Tripoli.
This just goes to show you how insufferably stupid humanity is:

Gaddafi has nowhere to run and therefore him and his most loyal supporters will fight like cornered snakes. The more political pressure that countries try to put on him, the more violently he will react. He will scramble to regain control of his country through increasingly brutal measures and whether or not he succeeds, more people will probably die as a result.

Makes me kind of wonder why no one in the E.U. or the U.S try to make a stand besides pointless sanctions and no-fly zones. It's clear that the people are going to get mowed down in one way or another, so maybe Britain or America needs to step in, and get Gadhafi out of power by any means, even if means more people get pissy with us.

It's not like I give a damn, but if you were really interested in seeing people not suffer, you would not support actions like sanctions or trying him for war crimes, etc. It also shows the hypocrisy of people -- one moment the entire world is complaining that the US is overstepping its bounds (lol) by invading Iraq, and the next they are begging the US to intervene.

The Middle Eastern countries need to make up thier goddamn mind, either we come in and fix your country from tyranny, or you're on your own. Luckily for Egypt and Tunisia, they didn't need us, but for Libya, that's more than likely a different story, I mean someone has to get rid of the fucker sometime, otherwise all those democracies are going to be on the crossfire.

try not to piss off the people anymore.
"The people" are idiots and slaves. That's all that they ever were and all that they will remain.

Well, they're eventually going to get what they deserve for selling their souls to be a theorarcy and taking some of our people hostage in our Embassy in Terhan, fucking bastards.


Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-27 10:06:15 Reply

At 2/26/11 10:57 PM, orangebomb wrote: Makes me kind of wonder why no one in the E.U. or the U.S try to make a stand besides pointless sanctions and no-fly zones.

Well, it's one of two possibilities:

1. They're all idiots.
2. They don't really care about the Libyan people. What they really want is to effect a regime change so that the resultant government will be more friendly to US/EU interests. Sanctions and no-fly zones simply make it harder for Gaddafi to fight for power. That's what they are for.

It's clear that the people are going to get mowed down in one way or another, so maybe Britain or America needs to step in, and get Gadhafi out of power by any means, even if means more people get pissy with us.

You see, this is where the hypocrisy is -- "wah wah wah the US invades countries like Iraq for oil" -- yet if they step into the Libyan conflict that would be exactly what they are doing.

The Middle Eastern countries need to make up thier goddamn mind, either we come in and fix your country from tyranny, or you're on your own.

The funny part is that a lot of these dictators were US-supported. (Libya was supported by the USSR.) So what you are essentially saying is that they need to make up their own mind in whether or not they should ask for our help in deposing the dictators which were a product of our larger conflict with the Soviets.

Luckily for Egypt and Tunisia, they didn't need us, but for Libya, that's more than likely a different story, I mean someone has to get rid of the fucker sometime, otherwise all those democracies are going to be on the crossfire.

In the wider picture, the Middle East conflicts are not going to work to Western interests anyway. The price of oil is surging right now to almost $100 a barrel. Mubarak was working with us, which is why Obama didn't really say anything about the protests there until after the fact. Bahrain houses the US Fifth Fleet. Major protests in Saudi Arabia would make the price of oil surge even higher.

It would really be in our immediate interest to maintain the status quo.

Well, they're eventually going to get what they deserve

Which is why I have no sympathy for any of the countries in the Middle East; to some extent they put those dictators in power (merely by virtue of supporting them) so when they complain about them the only thing I can really do is laugh at their stupidity.

Gaddafi is so much cooler than any of those clowns.

Libya's problems...


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-28 13:34:19 Reply

Well, Mubarak is now barred from leaving the country. Chances are that they're probably going to try him for corruption charges. And if Gaddafi resigns they're just going to make him a pariah and charge him with human rights violations or other nonsense.

Are people honestly this stupid? Do they really think he's going to resign knowing that he's going to go to prison for the rest of his life if he does? Do you think any OTHER leaders who might face the same charges will do the same thing?

If he resigns he is a coward, just like the army units who defected to the opposition.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-28 18:23:53 Reply

At 2/28/11 01:34 PM, KemCab wrote: Are people honestly this stupid? Do they really think he's going to resign knowing that he's going to go to prison for the rest of his life if he does? Do you think any OTHER leaders who might face the same charges will do the same thing?

So what's the alternative? Stay in his capital and get killed by the rebels?

If he resigns he is a coward, just like the army units who defected to the opposition.

Oh so turning against an oppressive government is cowardly, so I guess if the Wehrmact turned against Hitler because of his genocide it would've been cowardly.


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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-28 18:29:42 Reply

Yeah, but the U.N. didn't hire terrorist thugs to shoot protesting Libyans.


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BumFodder
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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-28 22:21:39 Reply

At 2/28/11 06:23 PM, Warforger wrote: Oh so turning against an oppressive government is cowardly, so I guess if the Wehrmact turned against Hitler because of his genocide it would've been cowardly.

Theres always that one person who has to play the Hitler card.

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Response to Libya's problems... 2011-02-28 23:39:39 Reply

At 2/28/11 06:23 PM, Warforger wrote: So what's the alternative? Stay in his capital and get killed by the rebels?

Prison or death; the more preferable option now that he cannot escape to anywhere is death.

Oh so turning against an oppressive government is cowardly, so I guess if the Wehrmact turned against Hitler because of his genocide it would've been cowardly.

It has nothing to do whether or not it was oppressive. They switched sides because they knew they couldn't win, and therefore they are cowards.


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