Finally, the end of Abortion

[Saen]

This issue will be forever debated on morality, we all know this, but thats not what I'm discussing or elaborating on. This thread was not created to debate the morality of abortion! If any controversy should exist (and sadly it does), it's how people view birth control ethically.

It is the 21st century and we finally have (and have had) the potential to bring abortion to extinction. The answer is simple, the current variety of birth control. If a couple decides to have sex and if the woman doesn't want to become pregnant, if birth control is use there is a 100% chance that the woman will not become pregnant. This is not a rounded 99.98% or anything of the sort, truly 100%, hope that got your attention. Now I understand that this is an extremely bold statement, but I intend to prove it.

All forms of birth control:

-Hormonal: Oral contraceptive, the shot, the patch, and the vaginal ring. Hormonal birth control tends to be 86-99.98% effective, the patch being least effective (and having the most side effects) and the shots being most effective.

-Barrier: Male condom and female condom. Effectiveness for condoms is difficult to calculate, but if used properly it is approximately 96-98%, on average I would guess it to be around 82%.

-Spermicide: Spermicide injectable foam, spermicide capsules, spermicide gel, and spermicide films. Spermicides tend to be around 92-98% effective.

-Intrauterine: Copper IUD and hormonal IUD. IUD's are highly effective at preventing contraception, being 98-99.98% effective.

-Permanent: Vasectomy and tubal ligation. Effectiveness 99.999%, within a month or two of surgery, afterwards 100% (assuming that sex remains monogynous between partners)

-Emergency contraceptive: Morning After Pill. 98-99.8% effective.

-Surgical: Induced abortion.

-Abstinence. ~0.001% effective :'(

As we can see the types of birth control are numerous. A woman has a total of 5 combined options (not including tubal ligation or an abortion) if she chooses to have sex, to prevent pregnancy. One hormonal, a barrier (female condom), a spermicide, a Copper IUD (not a hormonal IUD, because she would already be on the pill, had a shot, etc. Taking too much hormones is always a bad idea.), and the Morning After Pill if the condom breaks or fails.

A combination of all of these methods seems like overkill, but it absolutely guarantees that pregnancy will be avoided. If I was doing well in Calculus, I would present you with a calculation determining the exact percentage if all 5 methods failed (obviously an unimaginably small number). Feel free to attempt on your own.

As far as I'm concerned, if a woman uses all 5 of those options and still gets pregnant; have the baby, its Jesus.

[gumOnShoe]

Rape?

Incest?

Having the baby means the mothers possible or probable death?

The baby will be born dead?

The baby will die due to a horrific disease within months of being born?

The baby is guaranteed to be mentally retarded?

The parents discover they have a horrible genetic or sexually transmitted disease that will be passed on to the child?

The parents were too poor to afford monthly birth control and the condom broke?

In short, stuff it.

[Saen]

At 2/3/11 07:44 PM, gumOnShoe wrote: Rape?

Rape kits.

Incest?

Increased availability of birth control.

Having the baby means the mothers possible or probable death?

*

The baby will be born dead?

*

The baby will die due to a horrific disease within months of being born?

*

The baby is guaranteed to be mentally retarded?

*

The parents discover they have a horrible genetic or sexually transmitted disease that will be passed on to the child?

*

The parents were too poor to afford monthly birth control and the condom broke?

*

In short, stuff it.

*This thread was not created to discuss abortion. The theme of this thread is that if birth control was widely distributed, the need for abortions will approach extinction. Topics should be, "Why isn't birth control being distributed more?", "Should we lower the age to gain access to birth control?", etc. Please I beg you, don't let this thread degenerate into another progress-less debate on abortion!

[gumOnShoe]

At 2/3/11 07:51 PM, Saen wrote:

At 2/3/11 07:44 PM, gumOnShoe wrote: Rape?

Rape kits.

So rape kits get rid of babies? Or, abortion is ok in this situation? Which is it?

Your morals only go so far? And don't say you didn't want to bring morals into this. You brought them in through the front door and paraded them in front of everyone.\; and then pretended your arguments were devoid of personal bias and were a wall against any and all disagreement.

Incest?

Increased availability of birth control.

Yeah, but if some fucked up boy wants to have sex with his sister and he's under 18 you think he's going to have the cash and means to acquire such things? You think he's going to go up to dear old mom and pop and say, "Hey! Mom! Dad! My sister's hot, go out and buy me a condom."

Having the baby means the mothers possible or probable death?
The baby will be born dead?
The baby will die due to a horrific disease within months of being born?
The baby is guaranteed to be mentally retarded?
The parents discover they have a horrible genetic or sexually transmitted disease that will be passed on to the child?
The parents were too poor to afford monthly birth control and the condom broke?

*This thread was not created to discuss abortion. The theme of this thread is that if birth control was widely distributed, the need for abortions will approach extinction. Topics should be, "Why isn't birth control being distributed more?", "Should we lower the age to gain access to birth control?", etc. Please I beg you, don't let this thread degenerate into another progress-less debate on abortion!

Oh, don't get me wrong. Birth control is the better option. It should be more widely available. But I'm not so blind as to believe birth control will eradicate the need for abortions.

[darkrchaos]

It doesn't matter what people think. This is America, land of the Free. You don't like abortions, go to a different country. If you make abortions illegal, the women will do it themsevles. Stop arguing over abortions. If you don't like it, don't get it. If you do, then do it. Stop caring about what other people are doing, It not your life it theirs.

[Saen]

At 2/3/11 07:57 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:
So rape kits get rid of babies? Or, abortion is ok in this situation? Which is it?

If you got raped It would be best to go to the police and receive a rape kit!

Your morals only go so far? And don't say you didn't want to bring morals into this. You brought them in through the front door and paraded them in front of everyone.\; and then pretended your arguments were devoid of personal bias and were a wall against any and all disagreement.

Quite prodding, get off the emotional freight train, and focus on the topic, birth control.

Yeah, but if some fucked up boy wants to have sex with his sister and he's under 18 you think he's going to have the cash and means to acquire such things? You think he's going to go up to dear old mom and pop and say, "Hey! Mom! Dad! My sister's hot, go out and buy me a condom."

A family the commits incest is mostly redneck and if thats the case abortion won't even be an option in the first place.

Having the baby means the mothers possible or probable death?
The baby will be born dead?
The baby will die due to a horrific disease within months of being born?
The baby is guaranteed to be mentally retarded?
The parents discover they have a horrible genetic or sexually transmitted disease that will be passed on to the child?
The parents were too poor to afford monthly birth control and the condom broke?

*This thread was not created to discuss abortion. The theme of this thread is that if birth control was widely distributed, the need for abortions will approach extinction. Topics should be, "Why isn't birth control being distributed more?", "Should we lower the age to gain access to birth control?", etc. Please I beg you, don't let this thread degenerate into another progress-less debate on abortion!

Oh, don't get me wrong. Birth control is the better option. It should be more widely available. But I'm not so blind as to believe birth control will eradicate the need for abortions.

Exactly! The public needs to be educated on birth control, the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy, etc. I'm ignoring abortion so vigorously in this case, because I know debates on abortion go NOWHERE and I REFUSE to debate it!

[Camarohusky]

At 2/3/11 08:12 PM, Saen wrote: Exactly! The public needs to be educated on birth control, the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy, etc. I'm ignoring abortion so vigorously in this case, because I know debates on abortion go NOWHERE and I REFUSE to debate it!

But isn't this debate about how the use of contraceptives will completely eradicate the need for abortions? Gum makes a good point. Contraceptives aren't perfect and are easy to misuse. All of the sex-ed in the world may be able to get condoms et.al. in the picture, but it's not going to be able to cause everyone to step back in the heat of passion and install it correctly. Not to mention those who cannot afford contraceptives. This doesn't even consider the fairly large group that bvelieves contraceptives are evil for whatever reason.

[Saen]

At 2/3/11 08:34 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
But isn't this debate about how the use of contraceptives will completely eradicate the need for abortions? Gum makes a good point. Contraceptives aren't perfect and are easy to misuse. All of the sex-ed in the world may be able to get condoms et.al. in the picture, but it's not going to be able to cause everyone to step back in the heat of passion and install it correctly. Not to mention those who cannot afford contraceptives. This doesn't even consider the fairly large group that bvelieves contraceptives are evil for whatever reason.

The discussion of birth control what the main result that I intended to reach. I presented an interesting idea that pregnancy can be 100% avoidable after sex without abortion. Yes, I know it is an unrealistic idea that abortion will be completely obsolete, but think about it. It is the fucking 21st century and unplanned pregnancy is still a major issue in developed countries! As for people not being able to afford contraceptives, two major flaws are accompanied by that.

One, how is having a baby less costly than buying any form of birth control? Two, if the problem is the cost of birth control, then wouldn't it be a good idea for government to step in and pay off some of the cost of production? The federal government supplements the refinement process of oil for oil companies, gasoline would be over $10 a gallon if they didn't step in. As for the people that don't believe in birth control and will not sway their opinions, if the rest of the world adopts more proactive birth control education and usage, they will become a minority.

[RydiaLockheart]

Are you really dumb enough to believe that birth control has a 100% protection rate? Condoms can break and various factors can interfere with hormonal birth control, like other medications.

Now, the best way to get around this is to double up on forms of birth control (say, condoms and the Pill) but there's still always a chance and you have to keep that in mind.

[Camarohusky]

At 2/3/11 08:52 PM, Saen wrote: One, how is having a baby less costly than buying any form of birth control?

One would think that if the people who are in this situation had this sort of foresight, they would practice abstinence.

[Saen]

At 2/3/11 08:55 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: Are you really dumb enough to believe that birth control has a 100% protection rate? Condoms can break and various factors can interfere with hormonal birth control, like other medications.

Now, the best way to get around this is to double up on forms of birth control (say, condoms and the Pill) but there's still always a chance and you have to keep that in mind.

Already addressed this. Lets say that a woman is on the pill and has a copper IUD. She is on antibiotics (which may neutralize the pill) and she and her partner have sex and the condom breaks. One, she has the copper IUD safeguarding her, because it is non-hormonal and two she can still take the morning after pill.

[Saen]

At 2/3/11 08:58 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
One would think that if the people who are in this situation had this sort of foresight, they would practice abstinence.

Practicing abstinence after having unprotected sex isn't going to prevent a woman from conceiving. Abstinence only prevents pregnancy if you stick to it, which is very rare and unlikely for a teenager to maintain.

[Camarohusky]

At 2/3/11 09:40 PM, Saen wrote: Practicing abstinence after having unprotected sex isn't going to prevent a woman from conceiving. Abstinence only prevents pregnancy if you stick to it, which is very rare and unlikely for a teenager to maintain.

The point wasn't to practice abstinence after sex. Rather it is that if one is going to have the fortitude to stop prior to sex and think about teh comparitive costs of contraceptives and babies, they would have the same fortitude to abstain from sex.

[Saen]

At 2/3/11 10:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
The point wasn't to practice abstinence after sex. Rather it is that if one is going to have the fortitude to stop prior to sex and think about teh comparitive costs of contraceptives and babies, they would have the same fortitude to abstain from sex.

The comparative costs of contraceptives? Mere cost of purchasing birth control would prevent you from having sex?

[RydiaLockheart]

At 2/3/11 10:52 PM, Saen wrote: The comparative costs of contraceptives? Mere cost of purchasing birth control would prevent you from having sex?

No, I think the cost of birth control is one reason people say "screw it" and go without. Of course, having a kid or an abortion is way more expensive but people don't seem to consider that. And even if you give up a kid for adoption there's still the labor and delivery costs.

There are organizations like Planned Parenthood out there giving out free condoms and reduced price birth control but people don't seem to realize it. It also doesn't help if you live in a rural area where there isn't access to one.

[Saen]

At 2/4/11 12:28 AM, RydiaLockheart wrote:
No, I think the cost of birth control is one reason people say "screw it" and go without. Of course, having a kid or an abortion is way more expensive but people don't seem to consider that. And even if you give up a kid for adoption there's still the labor and delivery costs.

Exactly, and the conclusion is if the cost of birth control was reduced, less people would have that mindset and all the drama and controversy would be avoided.

There are organizations like Planned Parenthood out there giving out free condoms and reduced price birth control but people don't seem to realize it. It also doesn't help if you live in a rural area where there isn't access to one.

You're right, few people do realize that they actually have bowls of free condoms out and available. I worked and volunteered there a little over a year as an advocate, taught sexual education, and preformed in plays for fundraisers. The most rewarding job that I have ever had.

[joe9320]

In Australia, we have the common sense on teaching comprehensive sex ed, rather than have the school to decide. No wonder why there are too many rape rates and murder rates- people are self-regulating sex education.

[Pride]

hmmm interesting topic, yeah I do believe it would be great if people could use birth control methods rather go unprotected and then be put into an "abortion" situation. But the problem is most people don't at all think about the consequences of their actions, for example my college came up with a slogan "share the love, but where a glove" (lol) and they basically give out free condoms in the student buildings but most people don't take advantage of the generosity of the college and end up getting someone pregnant (leading to you guessed it abortion). The problem I think is the way condoms and birth control methods are portrayed through the media through funny commercials such as trojan man or smilin Bob (lol again), although this is a funny way of advocating birth control it ends up being forgotten. So basically my suggestion would be that maybe a more informative commercial be used, could help but idk.

[morefngdbs]

THe OP has forgotten, or possibly has no knowledge of the FACT.
THat every time you have sex....the woman doesn't get pregnant.
As a matter of fact, getting pregnant for many women is difficult & for some IMPOSSIBLE.
So your 27 different birth control ideas, just won't cut it.
Then there's a couple of other probelms.
COST.
THat seems to be left out of your consideration.
Birth Control pills, condoms, IUD's, spermacide...no ones handing that shit out for free !
Getting people to spring for 1 form of birth control, is already not working in a large number of cases, people use the old pull out at the last second...or hope it don't happen.
Which is my favorite way.
Hope.
Which has worked out quite well in my marriage.... more than 10 years , fucking all the time...only 2 children.
I've been divorced for awhile now...same girlfriend more than 5 years...great sex, she is truely talented IMO ...& NO baby's...also no birth control ~:)

Not actually criticising you OP...just pointing out some 'truths' & everyone just don't fit in your plan there. Because if you look at COST.

One of our ladies here want to tell me what birth control pills cost ?
Condoms, 5 to 10 dollars depending on type & amount.
Look at it from my point of view, 5 years, bought no pills, bought no condoms.
I get laid more than twice a week, but lets us 2 times, cause its easy math x 5 years = 520 condoms + pill cost.
If Seventh sister, finds out she's pregnant later next month...which is very possible after last night ! it would be the first time in 5 + years, & .............
Oh, shit, I forgot, this is Canada & Birth Control via abortion is free here .

I guess I'll sign off then ~:)

[adrshepard]

At 2/4/11 07:58 AM, morefngdbs wrote: THe OP has forgotten, or possibly has no knowledge of the FACT.
THat every time you have sex....the woman doesn't get pregnant.
As a matter of fact, getting pregnant for many women is difficult & for some IMPOSSIBLE.

Either way, it's still a gamble.

Getting people to spring for 1 form of birth control, is already not working in a large number of cases, people use the old pull out at the last second...or hope it don't happen.
Which is my favorite way.

Dangerous even if you remember all the time. You can still leak and not know it.

Which has worked out quite well in my marriage.... more than 10 years , fucking all the time...only 2 children.
I've been divorced for awhile now...same girlfriend more than 5 years...great sex, she is truely talented IMO ...& NO baby's...also no birth control ~:)

Maybe one or both of you is just infertile. No pregancy despite that much sex probably isn't the norm for most people. You're the exception to the whole "human reproductive process" rule, it seems.

[Proteas]

At 2/3/11 07:40 PM, Saen wrote: -Abstinence. ~0.001% effective :'(

... huh?

If you're not having sex, there's no chance of getting pregnant. That's not a politically charged statement, that's common sense. The only way it would result in pregnancy 99.999% of the time is... oh... YOU'RE HAVING SEX. That's not NOT having sex, now is it?

At 2/3/11 08:12 PM, Saen wrote: If you got raped It would be best to go to the police and receive a rape kit!

Do you actually know what a rape kit is? It's a retrieval kit used for DNA analysis. It doesn't prevent rape, it just helps to identify the attacker.

At 2/4/11 12:47 AM, Saen wrote: You're right, few people do realize that they actually have bowls of free condoms out and available. I worked and volunteered there a little over a year as an advocate, taught sexual education, and preformed in plays for fundraisers. The most rewarding job that I have ever had.

... wait a minute. You know all this, yet you want to to complain and carry on about how birth control isn't that widely available? You can get condoms at every gas station, grocery store, and pharmacy you set foot in along with going to your local health department, where, women can also get shots and pills. So you're doing a dis-service to this forum by being intellectually dishonest, here.

You're also doing the forum a dis-service by ignoring something else; availability is not the problem, willingness is. Birth control is widely available, and it can be had for free, but it does no good if you are not willing to seek it out... which actually entails getting up off your ass and going out and getting it. And then, get this, you actually have to USE IT.

And yeah, there's not a birth control out there that is 100% effective, but that's no excuse for not using it if you have it available to you. A 90-98% chance of not getting pregnant is still better than a 90-98% chance of getting pregnant.

[RydiaLockheart]

At 2/4/11 11:27 AM, adrshepard wrote: Maybe one or both of you is just infertile. No pregancy despite that much sex probably isn't the norm for most people. You're the exception to the whole "human reproductive process" rule, it seems.

Or maybe they're just using the natural rhythm method or whatever it's called without knowing it. I know that some couples who either don't believe in birth control or who can't take the hormonal stuff will use it. Of course, it's not an option for women with irregular periods or people who won't stick to the schedule but it can work.

[morefngdbs]

At 2/4/11 12:06 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote:

At 2/4/11 11:27 AM, adrshepard wrote: Maybe one or both of you is just infertile. No pregancy despite that much sex probably isn't the norm for most people.

;;;
I don't think so.
I've got at least 3 kid's , 2 from my ex, & one other.

Of course, it's not an option for women with irregular periods or people who won't stick to the schedule but it can work.

;;;
She has an egg problem... she has been pregnant once in her life & she miscarried. I don't want another kid at this stage of my life, I'm 81 for christ sakes, but she said if she gets pregnant we're DEFINATELY NOT ABORTING IT.
I already aborted , or went along with aborting a child years ago...that's what the girl wanted & I respected her wishes.
No matter what anyone else may think...I still believe the woman has the right to decide, its her body, & her brain that has to carry a fetus to term, & deal with everything else. IF she doesn't want to. I would never want to force her either.

[CAN-OF-SPAM]

At 2/3/11 07:51 PM, Saen wrote:

At 2/3/11 07:44 PM, gumOnShoe wrote: Rape?

Rape kits.

Im not a rapist or will i ever be, but if i was and my dick was stuck in a rape kit i would blow the womans fucking brains out seconds after getting stuck in it. So thats not the best option.

[ArmouredGRIFFON]

We could stop the NEED for abortion. But the debate will always fall unto ethics because of 'Holy' Sanctity of life bullshit.

[Jetmann]

At 2/3/11 08:12 PM, darkrchaos wrote: It doesn't matter what people think. This is America, land of the Free. You don't like abortions, go to a different country. If you make abortions illegal, the women will do it themsevles. Stop arguing over abortions. If you don't like it, don't get it. If you do, then do it. Stop caring about what other people are doing, It not your life it theirs.

Read the amendment rights, you have freedom of religion, speech, press, and to bear arms. THOSE are your rights. Did you go to school?

[Camarohusky]

At 2/4/11 05:22 PM, CAN-OF-SPAM wrote: Im not a rapist or will i ever be, but if i was and my dick was stuck in a rape kit i would blow the womans fucking brains out seconds after getting stuck in it. So thats not the best option.

Do you actually know what a rape kit is?

[Gustavos]

Birth Control is very effective and a blessing to the community of people who forgot sex was a means of expressing love. I could go on and on about how much more the new generations of kids are getting fucked up before they're even born, but the main argument here is "if we have multiple methods of decent birth control, why should abortion be considered the only method of stopping unwanted pregnancy?"

The guys here would make great politicians. Their ability to avoid the topic at hand is rivaled only by their idea that supporting abortion is the "right" thing to do.

But to avoid unwanted moronancy, I'll just say right here that both I, and my catholic-conservative family, support the use of abortions even if the kid doesn't have a decent excuse. And if you ask me, I don't think a woman should legally be able to have a kid until age 18. But that would just be one of my assholic views.

People should realize that these mass pregnancies from younger and younger mothers isn't just from daterape and other terrible means. It's just that they didn't take the precautions and neither did their partner. And it's not because they "forgot" or anything that stupid. If they're so heavily under the influence of drugs and alcohol that they forgot about what sex can lead too, than they're probably to far under the influence to figure out which body part goes where. So I'm going to be "edgy" too and say this:

Many unwanted pregnancies come from consensualsex.

[Bacchanalian]

The morning after pill can constitute abortion, depending on where the female is in her cycle.

[CAN-OF-SPAM]

At 2/5/11 01:00 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 2/4/11 05:22 PM, CAN-OF-SPAM wrote: Im not a rapist or will i ever be, but if i was and my dick was stuck in a rape kit i would blow the womans fucking brains out seconds after getting stuck in it. So thats not the best option.

Do you actually know what a rape kit is?

Oh sorry, i got that confused with rapeX.