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why human rights?

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wehrmacht5
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why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:06 AM Reply

example:
Biochemical warfare is super effective: The enemy dies in a most gross and bloody way, the survivors are demoralized (they will most likely run away or surrender) and all the equipment, weaponry, buildings, etc... will be intact.

So why do we care about the rights of our enemies?
discuss plz... because I really don't see the benefit or the logic


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Zerok
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:09 AM Reply

Because if you allow ghastly and devastating strategies to run rampant it'll downward spiral to the point where someone fucks up big time, and you as a citizen will find yourself shaking on the floor vomiting up your own intestines while having seizures due to some misguided biological attack, dying slowly and crying and wishing you had lived your life better and not been such a cynical amoral bastard.

That's why.


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wehrmacht5
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:16 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:09 AM, Zerok wrote: Because if you allow ghastly and devastating strategies to run rampant it'll downward spiral to the point where someone fucks up big time, and you as a citizen will find yourself shaking on the floor vomiting up your own intestines while having seizures due to some misguided biological attack, dying slowly and crying and wishing you had lived your life better and not been such a cynical amoral bastard.

the army of the enemy sees this and flees in panic or surrenders--> Battle won.
But I must agree that if one selfish bastard launches too many nukes, it'll be done with everyone.

mines and flamethrowers work pretty well.
so what's wrong with those?


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Zerok
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:28 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:16 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: But I must agree that if one selfish bastard launches too many nukes, it'll be done with everyone.

Good.

mines and flamethrowers work pretty well.
so what's wrong with those?

They still use mines don't they?

Flamethrowers kill you in an intentionally horrible and painful way (keyword: intentional). Someone had to try and draw the line somewhere. Obviously it's very subjective as a combat knife or grenade or bullet or mousetrap could result in a worse death than a flamethrower if used correctly / encountered unluckily. But we attempt to set standards in morality simply because the cold alternative that you seem to endorse is much too chaotic and terrifying,


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wehrmacht5
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:52 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:28 AM, Zerok wrote: They still use mines don't they?

Ottawa treaty
some countries still make mines but international pressure forces them to sign the treaty
(which involves prohibition of making, stocking, buying and using mines)

Flamethrowers kill you in an intentionally horrible and painful way (keyword: intentional). Someone had to try and draw the line somewhere. Obviously it's very subjective as a combat knife or grenade or bullet or mousetrap could result in a worse death than a flamethrower if used correctly / encountered unluckily. But we attempt to set standards in morality simply because the cold alternative that you seem to endorse is much too chaotic and terrifying,

terrifying... I guess that could be the reason!
you're own men will get traumatized after a while...


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Zerok
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:57 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:52 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: Ottawa treaty
some countries still make mines but international pressure forces them to sign the treaty
(which involves prohibition of making, stocking, buying and using mines)

Interesting. Damn pacific Canadians, eh? ;)

terrifying... I guess that could be the reason!
you're own men will get traumatized after a while...

Yeah 'terror' is not a very popular term post 9/11.

And you're right, your own men might even start to feel fucked up after destroying the enemy in a particularly gruesome manner... then you have the opposite effect of good morale.

It's not a simple discussion at all though. Lots of grey areas with sound arguments on either side.


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Zerok
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 07:58 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:57 AM, Zerok wrote: pacific

pacifistic*

Sorry BC. :3

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Steff
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 08:27 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:16 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: mines and flamethrowers work pretty well.
so what's wrong with those?

I think that radiation spreads and hurts more than an explosion.
100% death in any case > blow shit up


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 09:41 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 08:27 AM, Asalraalaikum wrote:
I think that radiation spreads and hurts more than an explosion.
100% death in any case > blow shit up

If a minekillsan enemy:one enemy less in combat
If a mine injures an enemy:three enemies less in combat

You've got different types of mines but the more used are those who ripes of your foot / leg.
this means the opponent has to use soldiers to carry and help there fellow men.
meaning less combat active personnel for your troops to worry about.
plus wounded men also costs in medical equipment btw

even our (NATO)ammunition is also based to gravelly injure instead of killing.


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AngelofPeace
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 10:14 AM Reply

Teargas FTW!

We would have a lot less trouble if we just dropped teargas bombs on the enemy beforehand.

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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 10:18 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:06 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: So why do we care about the rights of our enemies?

Firstly, the question arises: why is anyone our enemy to the point where we want them dead in the first place? Why do we want them to suffer especially in that demise?

If you look at the wars you'll see a lot of excuses used, but usually it comes down to them being on land that they want. In the end, there's only one place a man gets to keep: his tomb. Men are fighting and dying for their graves.

And if you're going to kill people for such an absurd reason, why would you escalate the horror of it by making the weapons used more horrible, meaning that more horrible weapons will be used on you? Why do you think it is that you don't see people using poison gas or weaponized ebola or neutron bombs? One reason is because we don't want the same stuff used on us. We don't want to go back to the point where London is having bombs rained on children or where we're burning hundreds of thousands of Japanese men women and children alive with incendiary weapons.

The other, far more important reason, is because we have compassion. Most human beings find the act of torturing and killing someone cruelly to be abhorrent, and with good reason. Deep down if everyone looked closely and with justice they'd see the hatreds and divisions of humanity to be our shortcoming, not a thing to be proud of, and to relish in the suffering of others because of things that are simultaneously blameworthy towards us is simply without merit.

Also "wermacht5" are you trolling or are you actually pulling the whole "nazism is cool!" thing? Snappy dressers no doubt, the old ones not the wife-beater and dock martins kind we've got here in the states.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 10:38 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:06 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: the survivors are demoralized

Or not, I doubt they'll feel happy after they see what you did to their own people. If anything, they'll respond even more brutally than your first strike, leading to a game of ping-pong or something where you'll keep bombing each other until there isn't one person living on one side.

Plus, you'll probably have a nice international image if you just happened to poison gas an entire country killing millions of civilians in the middle of it.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 10:44 AM Reply

People agree to not use such awful tactics due to they not wanting the same tactics to be used on them. The same reason why MMA fighters don't kick each other in the nuts. It is just something you need to take out of the "moveset" because you don't want the other guy to do that to you.

The rules of war are good. We don't want the shit that happened in WW1 happening where both sides come home with a million deformed and ruined men due to gas and fire.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 10:46 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 10:18 AM, CorpseGrinderClock wrote:

Killer whales don't always eat their food after playing with it in a cruel way...
besides compassion is purely a selfish-defensive act.
we HOPE the opponent don't do what we didn't.
We don't as a way to protect ourselves, not because we like the guy who's trying to kill us.

Biological and chemical warfare are a fast and effective way to end the war and so ensuring (or imposing) a "peaceful and good" (depending on the point of view) place.
mostly the winner imposes his own valors and morals.

Also "wermacht5" are you trolling or are you actually pulling the whole "nazism is cool!" thing?

check my profile, dude! I'm NOT a nazi!
I'm just interested in the war.
or is it illegal to acknowledge the bloody war happened!

btw the wehrmacht was an army. If you're looking someone to blame for all those "so called war crimes" you can accuse the Schutztaffel!


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 10:48 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 10:46 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: Biological and chemical warfare are a fast and effective way to end the war and so ensuring (or imposing) a "peaceful and good" (depending on the point of view) place.
mostly the winner imposes his own valors and morals.

Right, but that sort of one-track mentality doesn't have a place anymore in this increasing complex, social world. It's not like a video game where when you win, it's done.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:13 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 10:46 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: Killer whales don't always eat their food after playing with it in a cruel way...

Animals do all sorts of things humans should consider themselves above, yes. We also don't eat poop or kill the children of someone we want to have sex with so that they'll have the biological urge to breed again.

"Animals do it so it's okay" has never been a very good argument.

At 1/17/11 10:46 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: besides compassion is purely a selfish-defensive act.
we HOPE the opponent don't do what we didn't.
We don't as a way to protect ourselves, not because we like the guy who's trying to kill us.

That's not compassion, that's good sense. Compassion is something different entirely.

At 1/17/11 10:46 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: Biological and chemical warfare are a fast and effective way to end the war and so ensuring (or imposing) a "peaceful and good" (depending on the point of view) place.

That may be so, but have you considered the ramifications further down the road?

Your short-sighted notion that the whole point is killing soldiers presently in the field as quickly as possible does not take into consideration where those enemies come from and why they feel so motivated to do battle with American soldiers. The use of such abhorrent means of warfare would not end the conflict quickly, but rather bolster their ranks through the outrage, and antagonize new enemies. Biological weapons, in particular, are notorious for the danger of them spreading to persons unintended. We would lose allies, make new enemies, and perpetuate the conflict in a region made even less advantageous to us.

What's more, if that "peace" and that "good" is dependent on our strength-at-arms, and terrorist groups are able to challenge that force with tactics that subvert its strength (all the tanks in the world didn't stop 9/11) then who ends up with the power there? On what shoddy foundation does that peace stand?

the winner imposes his own valors and morals.

Hence why Jesus is forgotten and Rome rules the world.
Except for India and France which are ruled by the British, despite the efforts of Joan d'Arc and Ghandi.

Again, I say if your authority is based on your military might, then your power is quickly toppled by someone who challenges you on other grounds. The great armies of the world, bristling with puissant weaponry and massive resources, have time and time again been defeated by people who fight on different terms; soldiers are human beings, and if a man is able to conquer the hearts of men he is far more powerful than one who has to resort to killing them.

check my profile, dude! I'm NOT a nazi!
I'm just interested in the war.
or is it illegal to acknowledge the bloody war happened!

I hear this a lot, and usually from someone like "gestapo22" or "JosephMengeleWasASmartLad33" or "xXHitlerWasAGreatLeaderFromAPracticalSe nseXx"

I know, Godwin's law and all, but it's rather Nuremburg in how unconvincing it is.

"so called war crimes"

Saying "so-called" sure makes the "I'm not a nazi" more convincing.

why human rights?


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:26 AM Reply

Because humans haven't succeeded in manipulating viruses so they wouldn't kill civilians, but if the area is clear of civilians and has only the enemy's soldiers there is no reason not to kill them with biological warfare.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:29 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 11:13 AM, CorpseGrinderClock wrote: Godwin's law

I'd never heard of that before; hilarious, thank you.

:)


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:33 AM Reply

Biochemical warfare / nukes are for pussies and old greasy dwarf politicians whose dick fell off 20 years ago. MANLY warfare with the invention of firearms. Damn we germans only had clubs and lived in swamps when we fucked up the romans while all civilized countries failed.

Human rights exist for your own protection. If one country is cruel to another, they have to expect to be threated the same way.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:35 AM Reply

*Ops I obviously meant manly warfare DIED.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:36 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 11:13 AM, CorpseGrinderClock wrote:
At 1/17/11 10:46 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote:
I hear this a lot, and usually from someone like "gestapo22" or "JosephMengeleWasASmartLad33" or "xXHitlerWasAGreatLeaderFromAPracticalSe nseXx"

Never heard of those guys. Should I?


"so called war crimes"
Saying "so-called" sure makes the "I'm not a nazi" more convincing.

america and the soviet-union didn't have to pay for their war-crimes.
Holodomor doesn't ring a bell I suppose...
"Only the winners decides what were war crimes" keep that in mind.

Wehrmacht personnel and German people paid form what the schutzstaffel did.
Lets not forget most locals and Muslims(north-africa) helped gladly with the gestapo and the local SS department.

I never gave my opinion in this topic.
I just wandered why we still fight wars but don't use the best equipment for the job.


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LethalDosage
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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:39 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:06 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: So why do we care about the rights of our enemies?
discuss plz... because I really don't see the benefit or the logic

We don't care about THEIR rights, we care about our own.
Nukes scare the shit outta people enough as it is, imagine if you gotta worry about some chemical searing your flesh off your bones next. Americans would be in a frenzy.

and that's why we pretend we care about the enemies rights.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:40 AM Reply

I forgot another reason, as long as your enemy is alive you can better unify the group that you are fighting for.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:42 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 11:36 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: I just wandered why we still fight wars but don't use the best equipment for the job.

well We have no reason to

we haver nukes but were not just gunna blindy nuke the middle east in hope we kill all of the taliban. and I doubt any modern nation who has these weapons would bother going to war with america seen as wars dont really benefit you much if you spend every penny on weapons and use every man as a soldier to attack america and hold it under your control probably wont be all that worth it.

answer: we dont use them because have no reason to (yet)


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 11:46 AM Reply

At 1/17/11 11:40 AM, satanbrain wrote: I forgot another reason, as long as your enemy is alive you can better unify the group that you are fighting for.

true
small terror cells attacking guerrilla style cause more damage than an unified army.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 12:00 PM Reply

Mines sit in the ground years after the war is over.

80% of all casualties from mines are citizens, after the war is over.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 12:12 PM Reply

At 1/17/11 12:00 PM, TheZachs wrote: Mines sit in the ground years after the war is over.

80% of all casualties from mines are citizens, after the war is over.

idem with the A-bomb on Hirochima or the unexploded bombs in the fields of Flanders. (WW1)


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 12:44 PM Reply

How can we call ourselves humans if we take away the things that make us human, our compassion, our self control, our empathy. I sincerely doubt the OP would even be able to shoot someone if they were in a war, let alone unleash some of the terrible weapons mentioned above. Also, it's not logical to use excess force in a situation where it's not warranted.

And acting like a nazi doesn't make you cool

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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 01:15 PM Reply

The first case of of historical chemical war fare was during the roman period when they had decided to use a highly poisonous plant to taint the water supply of one of their enemies. They ended up killing 10,000 innocent people and conquered the city with ease...But, even the Romans after seeing the horror of what they had done, had forbid such tactics from being used in the future for lack of civility and honour.
It's forbidden for any country to use chemical war fare. As as soon as the US decided to be jerk offs and kill millions of innocent, you can believe you'll be practicing bomb drills daily in your 7th grade class. The you'll realize how terrifying of a prospect it actually is.

People were building bomb shelters in mass under their houses in the 60s they were so terrified of nukes.


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Response to why human rights? Jan. 17th, 2011 @ 01:18 PM Reply

At 1/17/11 07:06 AM, wehrmacht5 wrote: Biochemical warfare is super effective

Unintentional pokemon reference?
Anyway we have human rights so people can not justify being hitler anymore.


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