Heimdall Is Black! Heresy!!!

[Ravariel]

note, for those who may not get my sense of irony, any "racist" language is purely intended for satirical purposes.

So, as you may or may not be aware, some kerfluffle has arisen over the casting of Heimdall in the new Thor movie as a black man. Some groups are threatening to boycott the movie because of this. Any by "some groups" I mean racists.

That said, they have a point. The Norse Gods, as depicted in their mythology... were... well... white. Now, the groups raising the kerfluffle aren't doing so because of this cultural fact, they're doing it because they don't like black folk.

Now, this brings up a series of issues that I would like to discuss in relation to racism, conversation, civil rights, and compromise that I'm kind of still tumbling through my brain now, so I'm going to bullet-point the issues without going too deep, because I fear if I do try to go into depth and cover everything I'll end up with a big wall -o- text that noone reads.

1) After the "whitewashing" controversy of the Last Airbender and Prince of Persia movies, this issue cannot be simply shinted into the "racists are butthurt about black folks gettin' the jobs" category. Faithfulness to cultural material is an important discussion to have.

2) Racists suck, and the fact that they made a good point is a terrible thing to agree with, ESPECIALLY because they didn't make the point as a source of discussion or cultural integrity, but because they don't like the darkies.

3) Agreeing with a racists good point is terrible because you don't want to give them any sense of legitimacy. It's like when a person you hate likes a band that you like... you're in a terrible position.

4) This is a conversation it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to have civilly.

5) This ties in with a bunch of first-amendment arguments that end up painting the ACLU and like organizations as terrible people for defending the KKK and NAMBLA. When you fight for civil rights, you generally end up defending people whose views you despise.

6) Penny Arcade skewered the topic pretty well in it's comic from Monday, and discusses the issue in more depth in this episode of The 4th Panel. Please do watch that vid as it covers a lot of important points, plus is amusing, so some chuckles can come of a disturbing topic.

plz no sue me Gabe-n-Tycho

[poxpower]

At 12/21/10 06:11 PM, Ravariel wrote:

That said, they have a point. The Norse Gods, as depicted in their mythology... were... well... white.

It's a dumbass comic about a guy who flies by spinning a magic hammer.

The only reason I'd be opposed to it is if he wasn't black in the comics.
It's like casting a blonde dude as Bruce Banner or making Superman's suit orange.

DON'T DO IT.

3) Agreeing with a racists

How is anything about this racism?

???
It's a useless cosmetic change, no one gives a fuck that he's black. They give a fuck that he's NOT WHITE.

4) This is a conversation it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to have civilly.

Of course, it's about a movie based on a comic.
That's the most heated type of arguments.

Please do watch that vid

neveeeeeeeeeeer

[orangebomb]

This is going to be an adaptation off a comic book, which means more than likely, there are going to be some certain liberties to the movie compared to the comic, regardless if it is plausible or not. It just so happens that a bunch of racists spoke out about this, and now everyone seems to be going batshit crazy about it.

I know that the movie depection of Heimdall is very inaccurate, because the Norse Gods are obviously white, but still, with a comic is being translated into a movie, the director may take certain liberties with the cast and storyline, even if it isn't true to the source material.

[aviewaskewed]

At 12/21/10 07:40 PM, poxpower wrote: It's a dumbass comic about a guy who flies by spinning a magic hammer.

It's an AWESOME comic about a guy who flies by spinning a magic hammer!

But I digress.

Honestly, I can never bring myself to be worked into a lather about these sorts of things, the people making the film should hire whoever they best think can do the job, and who can show up to do the job. All else to me is completely irrelevant. Especially in a case of "oh noes! A white actor isn't going to get one part in one movie"...cause you know, those white actors are so fucking oppressed and never get nowhere amiright?

[LordJaric]

I honesty could care less if a black guy played superman. Seriously this shit should be behind us already. I ask any reasonable person *cough*not racist*cough* why should it matter. If you going to point out culture I can easily say that race has nothing to do with culture. This is really nothing but a bunch of racist jumping on a chance to put themselves on a pedestal

[LordJaric]

At 12/22/10 03:12 AM, LordJaric wrote: If you going to point out culture I can easily say that race has nothing to do with culture.

I should correct myself on this, yes race has had an effect on culture but in broad skim of things race really doesn't matter.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 12/22/10 03:23 AM, LordJaric wrote: but in broad skim of things race really doesn't matter.

According to who? Some people value race, others don't.

[LordJaric]

At 12/22/10 03:44 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 12/22/10 03:23 AM, LordJaric wrote: but in broad skim of things race really doesn't matter.

According to who? Some people value race, others don't.

Scientifically it really doesn't matter, what determines the color of skin is the amount of sun the body gets. The closer to the equator the darker people's skin will be, the farther they are the lighter their skin. Dark skinned people moved farther away from the equator, their descendants after several generations will start to show signs of change to lighter skin, vice-versa if people of lighter skin are moved closer to the equator. It's not gentic is an adaptaion, thats why it really doesn't matter.

[lapis]

At 12/21/10 07:40 PM, poxpower wrote: The only reason I'd be opposed to it is if he wasn't black in the comics.

He doesn't look very black to me. I can't read the mind of the casting director, but I'm not a big fan of casting a black guy simply for the sake of casting a black guy. Then again, the characters are mythological and not historical, which allows for some creative interpretation of race.

What I found more striking was Morgan Freeman's role as Azeem in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Okay, while I cannot rule out the possibility that some West-African traveled to North Africa using some Trans-Saharan trade route and somehow got lost and ended up in Jerusalem, it's a bit of a stretch. And when the scene comes along where he explains his race to some peasant kid it becomes a bit obvious that his role was basically meant as an excuse for a statement about racial equality.

how was he able to spaek English anyway? I can understand that he was perhaps able to speak French and able to communicate with Robin Hood in that language, but I doubt that, despite the English nobility being French-speaking, Saxon peasants were able to speak French up to the level that they could have a conversation with him. Outrage!

[Ravariel]

Another one!

How dare they have (or not have, depending on your perspective) dark-skinned hobbits!?

There comes a point when controversy surrounding casting in FICTIONAL movies based on FICTIONAL fantasy worlds makes you wonder if our attention isn't focused on the wrong spot.

Racism is real, and important. Does it actually help the case for equality when superficial decisions like this get blown up?

[kaijuuaoiro]

thinking about less important examples... socrates was black, and people assumed him white in some point of history (the original greekc natives where black so thats why wont see much of they true sculptures instead mordern white sculptures) the egyptians where black, you would not be surprised to seee most of their sculptuers with the nose and mouth being removed(for obvious reasons) and also bethoven was black (as all much of the people from his time describes him so) and in any place they represent that strange afro-like hearstile but with a white face on it, so who cares, racisim is something that exist...
Jesus was almost 99 % sure black, but 99% percent of the people worshiphim assume him to be a white european blonde... that leaves something to think...

[Proteas]

At 12/22/10 10:18 AM, Ravariel wrote: Does it actually help the case for equality when superficial decisions like this get blown up?

It's not a "superficial" decision, it's an intentional move by the movie makers to keep political correctness groups off their ass. Can you imagine what kind of shit would be stirred up if this movie was full of the white Aryan stereotypes the comic actually depicts there to be? The racist group in the opening article wouldn't say a word, but guys like Jesse Jackson would get their panties in a wad because there was no representation of a strong black figure anywhere in the film.

[KemCab]

Last I checked, this isn't historical fiction; ergo, this should be a non-issue.

[Korriken]

At 12/26/10 12:00 AM, kaijuuaoiro wrote: thinking about less important examples... socrates was black, and people assumed him white in some point of history (the original greekc natives where black so thats why wont see much of they true sculptures instead mordern white sculptures)

I'm not sure about that, but then again

the egyptians where black, you would not be surprised to seee most of their sculptuers with the nose and mouth being removed(for obvious reasons)

well it is in africa.

and also bethoven was black (as all much of the people from his time describes him so) and in any place they represent that strange afro-like hearstile but with a white face on it, so who cares, racisim is something that exist...

not sure where people get this shit from. His grandfather was from Belgium, the rest of his family from Germany. Neither are a "black" people. but I suppose blacks are trying to get their hands on a composer. He may have had some black features to him, but by no means was he a full blown negro. But, then again, Tiger woods is "black" Barrack Obama is "black", despite Obama being half white and Woods having more heritage than most of us can boast. by that thought, Obama and Woods are also white.... of course Woods is also asian. This would also mean all spanish people, and by extension, mexicans, are also black due to them having some small strand of black dna in them. This thing would also make ME black, white, indian, and asian because my great great grandfather on my mother's side was a black man who married an indian (native american) and their child married a white woman and my father's side of the family is damn near totally white.

However I look and act completely white, except for my slightly broader than normal nose...

Jesus was almost 99 % sure black, but 99% percent of the people worshiphim assume him to be a white european blonde... that leaves something to think...

Bullshit. Jesus was a Hebrew. of course he also wasn't a white guy with long blonde hair either. he would have stood out like bear in a shopping mall if he was.

But this also leads me to question what you call "black" do you include anyone without ghostly pale skin as black? or perhaps anyone who is famous and has even a minute amount of black ancestors to be black?

Also, no matter how you think humans came to be, most can be sure at some point only a few humans existed and gave rise to the rest of us. where they came from doesn't matter.

[lapis]

At 12/26/10 08:56 AM, Korriken wrote:

the egyptians where black, you would not be surprised to seee most of their sculptuers with the nose and mouth being removed(for obvious reasons)

well it is in africa.

But not everyone from Africa is 'black', as in: Morgan Freeman black. There are plenty of ancient paintings in the graves and temples near Luxor that depict the different races of the empire; while the Egyptian men are portrayed with darker skin than Canaanite men, the contrast with Nubians both in terms of skin colour and nose shape is much more stark.

But, as you said, it all depends on how narrowly you define 'black'. Most Nubians already consider themselves to be Arab and only the Bantus from south-Sudan and Darfur as truly 'black'.

[Ericho]

I am a huge fan of comic books and know a lot about pretty much every major comic book character out there. I have never even heard of Heimdall before, although then again I have never actually read "Thor" comic books. It reminds me of how there was controversy over how Kingpin was played by a black guy in "Daredevil". I did not like that movie, but the funny thing is, that really didn't bother me at all. Dislike something for a bad plot, not for race reasons.

[TheMason]

At 12/21/10 07:40 PM, poxpower wrote: stuff

Wow Poxy...I think I'm in agreement with everything you just said! lol

[aviewaskewed]

At 12/26/10 12:34 AM, Proteas wrote: It's not a "superficial" decision, it's an intentional move by the movie makers to keep political correctness groups off their ass. Can you imagine what kind of shit would be stirred up if this movie was full of the white Aryan stereotypes the comic actually depicts there to be? The racist group in the opening article wouldn't say a word, but guys like Jesse Jackson would get their panties in a wad because there was no representation of a strong black figure anywhere in the film.

Except there are so many different examples of "big summer movies" where it IS full of aryan white people and no strong black figures anywhere...and Jesse Jackson and the NAACP and anybody else don't bat an eyelash or say a word so um...I think you're reaching and seeing a "political correctness" issue where none really exists.

[poxpower]

At 12/26/10 12:34 AM, Proteas wrote: Can you imagine what kind of shit would be stirred up if this movie was full of the white Aryan stereotypes the comic actually depicts there to be?

Hum, nothing?
Haha.

If anything, it's a (sad) attempt at getting black people to see the movie.

[Proteas]

At 12/27/10 01:58 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: I think you're reaching and seeing a "political correctness" issue where none really exists.

I suppose you're right. But it does leave me wondering one thing, though...

At 12/27/10 02:26 PM, poxpower wrote: If anything, it's a (sad) attempt at getting black people to see the movie.

Using someone's race as a cheap marketing ploy is kind of insulting, don't you think?

[animehater]

At 12/27/10 11:36 PM, Proteas wrote: Using someone's race as a cheap marketing ploy is kind of insulting, don't you think?

Doesn't stop people from milking it for all it's worth and getting a whole heap of money though.

[aviewaskewed]

At 12/27/10 11:36 PM, Proteas wrote: Using someone's race as a cheap marketing ploy is kind of insulting, don't you think?

It is. But again, beyond an ASSUMPTION of the motivations for the casting...how do we know? I mean, how do we know they didn't test a bunch of white people as well and they just happened to decide the best guy to pull off the role was a black man? What real evidence is there that Brannagh or anyone else associated with the film (up to Marvel Studios Pres Kevin Feige) had any sort of "At least one character must be black" mandate to work from?

I think it's unfair to the production people to try and see some sort of racial motive here until there's...ya know...some evidence of a racial motive here.