Yeah, you read that right.
So the general affairs committee of the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly recently passed a ban on "manga, anime, and other images (except for real-life photography)" that "unjustifiably glorify or exaggerate" certain sexual or pseudo sexual acts including crimes, violence and anything that is "likely to interfere with the healthy development of youth".
This means that any manga, anime, game or illustration that doesn't pass the regulatory board's muster would be shunted into the 18+ or adult-only sections of publications and stores. This would be a death knell for any publication moved in such a way because, contrary to the popularity of ero-manga, the business side of that industry is one of marginal profits at best. They generally rely on Tankoubon (NSFW ads/rest of site) income (basically graphic novel collections), and most artists in the 18+ genre (NSFW ads/rest of site) only barely make a living. Shunting a manga that is violent (like Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, or Berserk), dark and slightly twisted (Death Note, Code Geass), or even the slightly ecchi (softcore, light nudity, "teasing") could be shunted into the 18+ category, crashing their sales and likely killing the book.
Even the Hentai market could suffer. Those set in schools could be seen as detrimental to the healthy development of children, even if they can't be sold to them, and banned outright. Additionally, the ban's mention of "rape and other sexual acts which violate societal norms" seems inevitably to point to a ban on depictions of homosexuality, or the more perverse ends of the hentai spectrum like lolicon, futanari, tentacles, rape and incest (I suggest you don't google image search those if you're easily shocked or offended). Oddly, a clause in the bill to ban possession of photographic child pornography was removed.
And while this is only in Tokyo, as the center of Japan this could have far-reaching implications throughout the Japanese Animation world, and is a pretty hefty blow in the realms of free speech and censorship that will be felt worldwide.
Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
And of course this is all based on ample studies and legitimate concerns and not conservative moral preserving values.
Anyway, no way something like Bleach is ever going into any 18+ category of anything unless Japan is really made up of the most prude and tight-assed people on this planet.
At 12/15/10 04:30 AM, RightWingGamer wrote: Hell, it specifically talks about sexual acts, which should be in the adults-only section to begin with.
yeah I saw a porno when I was 17 and it crippled my emotional development
The only good mike brown is a dead mike brown.
Well anime and manga wouldn't have argueably had niches like tentacle rape if Japan hadn't outlawed anything depicting people engaging in sexual activies! These conservative rulings have a tendency to just distort depictions of human sexuality rather than remove them - you can't remove sex from people's thoughts. Or violence. Or crime. And if this media glorifies these things then surely these unruly youths will just publish their criminal media online like all evil, subversive dissidents do.
At 12/15/10 04:30 AM, RightWingGamer wrote: THAT'S IT?! All that the law requires is that these explicit materials be put in the adults-only section? Hell, it specifically talks about sexual acts, which should be in the adults-only section to begin with.
Think of it this way: This is like a rule that basically tells the MPAA that Rated R movies now get designated NC-17, PG-13 is now R, and PG is PG-13, and NC-17 movies can be outright banned.
Imagine what that would do to the movie industry. NC-17 ratings pull in significantly less than R movies, and the trend continues with G movies being the best money makers, and we're not even talking profit (granted most current NC-17s would gain some ground there due to being, in general, low-ish budget indie films, but that's kind of a chinken-and-egg thing), just sheer box office. And when was the last time an NC-17 movie won any kind of award, or had any significant star-power behind it?
The Fight Clubs, and the Requiem for a Dreams, and the Black Swans, and the District 9s would never be made (on the plus side, The Expendables and the xXx movies wouldn't either), and Harry Potter would be an R-rated movie.
This would cripple the industry and pretty heavily neuter its ability to tell mature stories.
Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
They did the same damned thing to Fritz The Cat. Don't they realize cartoons are for kids, not for 18+.....
Injured Workers rights were taken away in the 1920's by an insurance company (WCB), it's high time we got them back.
At 12/15/10 09:16 AM, bcdemon wrote: They did the same damned thing to Fritz The Cat. Don't they realize cartoons are for kids, not for 18+.....
I think most people here are lacking in knowledge of Japanese culture.
Japans outlook on comic books and cartoons are VASTLY different from our own. Most people in the west view animated material as something you entertain children with and comic books are for those overweight nerds with no life.
Also, most westerners view nudity as something that is inherently vulgar and should be shunned.
Also, pornographic cartoons and comics will still do good, but children will no longer be able to access them so easily. People have odd fetishes.
and I doubt that nudity or violence alone would be enough to shove an anime into the 18+ section. If it is, anime stores won't have an 18+ section, it'll have a 17- section in the beginning and the rest of the store will be the 18+ section. It's most likely going to be animes and mangas with hardcore violence and graphic sexual content that will be put in the 18+ section.
I'm not crazy, everyone else is.
At 12/15/10 09:15 AM, Ravariel wrote: Think of it this way: This is like a rule that basically tells the MPAA that Rated R movies now get designated NC-17, PG-13 is now R, and PG is PG-13, and NC-17 movies can be outright banned.
Imagine what that would do to the movie industry.
Yeah, but this isn't the movie industry and this is Tokyo. When I wandered around Akihabara (because I could get there free) I saw kids wandering around the adult only sections of the stores. In Shinjuku, the manga section is its own two story building and group the adult mangas together won't do anything.
The smaller stores may be hit, but there isn't a place in Tokyo where access to the large centers is difficult at all. If this does make those managa completely out of reach for the kiddies, I bet you will find a big number of these stores sprouting up in cities like Kawasaki, Saitama, and Ichikawa, each a river away from the rule. These three cities are extremely easy to get to from Tokyo.
This is not a death knell. If anything the kidlets will have to jump through 1 or 2 extra hoops to get their cartoon porn.
Did you know that 40% of all printed material in Japan is manga? You really exaggerated when you said Tokyo was banning it, because it is really just being moved to an adult seciton. I always thought that Japan was a place where you talked about more adult-oriented stuff to kids when they were a lot younger than in Eastern countries. If you thought McDonald's happy meals being banned was crazy, this is something that will cause riots in the streets.
You know the world's gone crazy when the best rapper's a white guy and the best golfer's a black guy - Chris Rock
At 12/15/10 09:51 AM, Korriken wrote: Also, most westerners view nudity as something that is inherently vulgar and should be shunned.
just a thought.
it doesn't mean the government can't have a freak-out over aspects of porn.
At 12/15/10 11:54 AM, SolInvictus wrote:
it doesn't mean the government can't have a freak-out over aspects of porn.
while this is true, it's not going to have the devastating effect people fear it will.
There are similar laws in america for porn and adult toys. the market is still here, instead of finding them in Walmart (which btw would be comical as hell) you find them in specialty stores that are pretty much everywhere. I live in a Podunk little shithole of a welfare town and we got an "adult store" that also does taxes and it probably rakes in nice piles of money.
I'm not crazy, everyone else is.
I suppport this just to see anime nerds rage against it.
Somehow, I seem to have a hard time believing that this law would be enforced, especially in the massive stores around the Akihabara and Shinjuku areas, and since this law is only enforced in the metro Tokyo area, people looking for adult anime or manga would just have to go to Yokohama or Tokyo's suburbs to get what they want.
This may be me, but I think that the older people in Japan, who have the power seem to view the otakus much like America views the hippies, lazy people that care only about 1 or 2 things in their life. I also have a feeling that otakus, anime businesses and possibly weeaboos would protest en masse, and worst case scenerio, might start a riot.
Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.
At 12/15/10 10:15 PM, The-General-Public wrote: I suppport this just to see anime nerds rage against it.
Yeah, me too.
I have never seen such a massive show of support for the whacking material of sexual deviants and pedophiles.
The two issues I see with this are what others have pointed up: The law is vague, yet they promise judicious enforcement, but to be judicious who is going to make these decisions? Is it going to be people knowledgable with clear criteria? Or is it going to be volunteers or people paid a low wage to enforce their subjective prejudices?
Also, what happens if the publishers decide to self regulate? When the American Comic Book industry was threatened in the 50's, they're reaction was to create a regulatory body that killed any and all innovation and made the books as bland as possible until a resurgence in the late 70's and early 80's. Nobody wants to violate the law, it costs them money. Publishers don't necessarily care about the artistic merits of what they're publishing, they care about how much money it makes them. My fear would be that this law, no matter how well intentioned, winds up an unintentional censorship that cripples an art form, much as when similar legislation was on the table here.
I have absolutely nothing against keeping inappropriate material out of the hands of kids. But when you pass such broad legislation you run the risk of causing censorship as art must relate to commerce here, and art will not be produced for art's sake.
I also wonder if some of the people who see this as "defending pedophiles and nerds whacking material" would support similar legislation here or in Japan that would put violent or sexually suggestive, or even explicit video games in the same light? Because I have this funny feeling of "it's alright because I don't care and it doesn't effect me, so fuck 'em" going on here.
You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate. --Mark Pryor, Senator
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At 12/16/10 01:54 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: yet they promise judicious enforcement,
Well it's Japan, so maybe they'll be the first country on earth to make a rating system that is unbiased and make sense!
If they can make Donkey Kong fit into my pocket, they can scientifically determine if Bleach characters show too much cleavage.
YOU CAN DO IT JAPAN!
The thing that really fascinates me about this case is that it so well illustrates the internal contradiction that is Japan's approach to violence and sexuality. If ever there were a culture that made our own look somewhat logical, it would be Japan.
Their culture is incredibly insular and based upon rules, honor, maintaining status quo, and fulfilling societal roles. They place a high value on propriety, so much so that they make the Victorians look positively bacchanalian. They still censor all of their pornography. And yet they produce vast quantities of some of the most vile examples of the form known to man (don't believe me, google search the term Guro... on second thought... don't).
They pass this law, that makes their already strict censorship laws even more strict by placing the possibility of even light nudity or dark/twisted themes being pushed into the Adult-only business, put it in the hands of a few men who are "urged to act with prudence" so as to keep artistic expression intact, and yet paint the law so broadly that it could do nothing ot completely choke the entire medium.
Japan itself is struggling with it's own ideas of sexuality. I think it sees the fact that shotacon and lolicon are genres, not just fringe fetishes and worries about the state of it's society... and yet it takes a bill that is probably pointed at homosexuality in order for them to get around to making a move against the forms.
Also, it was once said that the worst thing about being an advocate for civil rights is you're often stuck defending scoundrels (paraphrased) and things you find morally repugnant. Remember, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Or that someone else isn't allowed to make it.
Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
At least porn is still legal..... here in the Glorious paradise that's the "Peoples'" Republic of China Porn is illegal.
At 4/22/09 12:38 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Raped by hongkong. NEXT.
Yeah, that was one champion of a post, wasn't it? -Zerok
At 12/16/10 02:35 AM, Ravariel wrote: The thing that really fascinates me about this case is that it so well illustrates the internal contradiction that is Japan's approach to violence and sexuality. If ever there were a culture that made our own look somewhat logical, it would be Japan.
Much like America, Japan is isn't always what it cracked up to be from a legal sense. The only difference is that in America, violence is much more tolerated and even celebrated in the media, whereas in Japan, sexuality is the big thing. Both countries are trying to control there respective vices with laws and rules, but with little avail.
Their culture is incredibly insular and based upon rules, honor, maintaining status quo, and fulfilling societal roles. They place a high value on propriety, so much so that they make the Victorians look positively bacchanalian. They still censor all of their pornography. And yet they produce vast quantities of some of the most vile examples of the form known to man (don't believe me, google search the term Guro... on second thought... don't).
As I said before, Japan is a land of hypocrisy. They censor the genitalia of porn, yet in some circumstances they openly show nudity and sell it in and outside their place of business without too much flak. It seems like they want to embrace Western culture, {especially in the cities}, but at the same time, don't lose their identity as an Eastern power.
They pass this law, that makes their already strict censorship laws even more strict by placing the possibility of even light nudity or dark/twisted themes being pushed into the Adult-only business, put it in the hands of a few men who are "urged to act with prudence" so as to keep artistic expression intact, and yet paint the law so broadly that it could do nothing ot completely choke the entire medium.
For some reason, I have a hard time seeing this law being enforced. Partly because most of the big anime shops around Akihabara had either moved their XXX stuff towards a back wall or a separate room, and the potential for lost revenue for both the stores and for the local and national government. I have a bad feeling that they could be a black market for porn in Japan supported by the Yakuza, in a way much like alcohol was during the '20s by Al Capone.
Japan itself is struggling with it's own ideas of sexuality. I think it sees the fact that shotacon and lolicon are genres, not just fringe fetishes and worries about the state of it's society... and yet it takes a bill that is probably pointed at homosexuality in order for them to get around to making a move against the forms.
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I believe the law was targeted towards the otaku crowd, because the older people in Japan view them as their version of hippies. The same otaku crowd that they used to attract more tourists to Japan, {more specifically, Akihabara and Shinjuku}, are now being targeted.
Also, it was once said that the worst thing about being an advocate for civil rights is you're often stuck defending scoundrels (paraphrased) and things you find morally repugnant. Remember, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Or that someone else isn't allowed to make it.
That's the problem with being Libertarian or even being an advocate for civil rights, freedoms and all that good stuff, You generally have to support anything that is said, drawn or printed, even if you disagree with the views of said person.
For example, I'm not really big on Hentai or any of it's sub genres, but I don't mind someone who happens to enjoy Hentai for their own reasons.
Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.
I expect a huge influx of relatively harmless yet curious sexual fetishes.
The "Crushing" scene could garner some lifeblood from this, seeing that it is mostly about crushing things that aren't necessarily related to sexual organs. Depictions of live creatures being crushed might however be phased out in favor of tomato crushing.
Pedal Pumping is also a good one, that scene should get some well-deserved exposure.
Cannibalism is out the window most likely, but how about those schmexy amputees?
Would tasteful rendering of Watersports be okay, I wonder? And what about Omorashi?
Vore might be a tad tricky, since it more often than not ends in one part essentially being snuffed, and I guess that this is the main attraction, but still. Soft Vore shouldn't be a problem.
Foot fetish anyone?
Glove fetish should be relatively safe I reckon.
Stuffing, general Inflationism and overeating should be good.
How about stories where people derive sexual pleasure from stuffing alternative orifices full with all kinds of pointy paraphernalia? Including stories where alternative orifices are "magically" or skillfully created?
______________________
General wackiness aside, I have this BURNING gut feeling that this kind of oversight of censorship might push forth even weirder fetishes, but what would I know?
We got tentacle rape when dicks were outlawed, now that tentacoo's might get phazed out a little I think it's going to be very interesting to see what will rise in it's place. I'm nominating Armpits!
Damnit, if this gets Berserk cancelled I'm going to be one sad panda.
Zephiran: Maintaining grammatical correctness while displaying astonishing levels of immaturity.
I was gonna clean my room.
But then I got pie.
At 12/16/10 01:54 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: The two issues I see with this are what others have pointed up: The law is vague, yet they promise judicious enforcement, but to be judicious who is going to make these decisions? Is it going to be people knowledgable with clear criteria? Or is it going to be volunteers or people paid a low wage to enforce their subjective prejudices?
Why would they ever be volunteers? They will be government employees, and the only criterion they will need is common sense. Do I need a five-step process in order to legimately conclude that goatze is fucking disgusting? Should I come up with some rule stating that the anus should never exceed a certain size ratio for each image to be legal?
There are two huge misconceptions people have when it comes to government involvement in culture. First, they think only a bunch of uptight prudes with no handle on mainstream society will be appointed. Second, they think all decisions will be made in a vacuum and stand for eternity.
Anyone whose job depends on exercising his own discretion will be examined and given feedback all the time. If he isn't making good decisions, either in the eyes of the public or his superiors, he'll be replaced.
I also wonder if some of the people who see this as "defending pedophiles and nerds whacking material" would support similar legislation here or in Japan that would put violent or sexually suggestive, or even explicit video games in the same light?
We already do. It's called the ESRB. Fortunately, there aren't that many popular console or computer games out there that glorify molestation or sexual intercourse with kids, so it doesn't get a lot of public attention.
Reading, maybe the world is coming to an end in few years.
What's next? Cubs winning the World Series?
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At 12/15/10 10:15 PM, The-General-Public wrote: I suppport this just to see anime nerds rage against it.
It is Japan after all so it wouldn't be surprising. I mean some J-pop singers and anime VAs were threatened just because they got engaged.
I wish NG has a facepalm emoticon, that would be nice.
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At 12/16/10 05:15 PM, Idiot-Finder wrote:At 12/15/10 10:15 PM, The-General-Public wrote: I suppport this just to see anime nerds rage against it.It is Japan after all so it wouldn't be surprising. I mean some J-pop singers and anime VAs were threatened just because they got engaged.
Wow, I like anime and all the good stuff attached, but these guys who threaten J-pop singers and VAs just because they're getting engaged, that would make hardcore Oakland Raiders fans seem kind of sane by comparison. That's Japan for ya, you expect the unexpected.
I wish NG has a facepalm emoticon, that would be nice.
I have a feeling that banning anime and manga from the nerve center of otaku culture, {Tokyo} there must be a blizzard in Hell right now.
Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.
At 12/15/10 04:30 AM, RightWingGamer wrote:At 12/15/10 02:35 AM, Ravariel wrote:That's absolutely horrible. We should never let such deplorable censorship exi--
...would be shunted into the 18+ or adult-only sections of publications and stores.THAT'S IT?! All that the law requires is that these explicit materials be put in the adults-only section? Hell, it specifically talks about sexual acts, which should be in the adults-only section to begin with.
I'm gonna have to agree. I was absolutely frightened for Japan until reading that they were just going to put the adult content...into the adult section.
But this does raise a major flaw in most of the manga and anime industries. They're tendencies to have blood, sexual references, and other adult themes. Come to think of it, I haven't seen a single anime without at least one of those. And though I've never read a manga book in my life, from what I've glanced at, they all ended up with the same cliches of women bouncing around in tiny skirts and...cat ears.
I'm sure there's a HUGE selection of kids anime and manga for the children in Japan, it's just not cool or popular enough for us Westerners to know or care about it. But it doesn't take much to see an episode of Bleach online for free.
We live in a world of censorship, it's just that the censorship is poorly enforced most of the time.
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At 12/16/10 02:01 AM, poxpower wrote: Well it's Japan, so maybe they'll be the first country on earth to make a rating system that is unbiased and make sense!
Maybe....but history doesn't make me too optimistic here :(
You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate. --Mark Pryor, Senator
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At 12/16/10 03:18 PM, adrshepard wrote: Why would they ever be volunteers? They will be government employees, and the only criterion they will need is common sense.
"common sense" from a government employee? Really? Really? Also the term "common sense" is pretty broad by itself.
Do I need a five-step process in order to legimately conclude that goatze is fucking disgusting?
You might. Because where you see disgusting, someone else may see funny, or even titilating. Me? No, I'm with you on disgusting. But just because we see it as disgusting and without value, doesn't mean that's the "correct" opinion.
Should I come up with some rule stating that the anus should never exceed a certain size ratio for each image to be legal?
I'd say no. One should never restrict "art" or "expression" unless it takes on forms that clearly and demonstrably hurt society. But when we're determining what is "adults" and what is for "children" especially when commerce and money is involved, we DO need a system to determine it, we do need to be very clear on these things so that content providers are clear as lots of product in the "arts" (movies are a great example) get made with a certain intended audience in mind, so they need to know what they can and can't get away with so they can easily reach that intended audience with as little possible cost to them as possible.
There are two huge misconceptions people have when it comes to government involvement in culture. First, they think only a bunch of uptight prudes with no handle on mainstream society will be appointed. Second, they think all decisions will be made in a vacuum and stand for eternity.
Well...that's because that's usually and demonstrably what happens without major changes to the system. That's how the CCA worked on Comics, that's how the MPAA works on movies, that's how the FCC tends to work on TV. Any body put in for the purposes of "censorship" or "promoting decency" is going to need to clearly define what constitutes these terms, and they are going to use their own biases and "moral compass" as a primary (if not THE primary) tool in deciding how to determine these things.
Anyone whose job depends on exercising his own discretion will be examined and given feedback all the time. If he isn't making good decisions, either in the eyes of the public or his superiors, he'll be replaced.
You hope...this isn't always the case however. See the mass of incompetence and corruption at all levels of NJ government as an example of how it doesn't always work like you say :)
We already do. It's called the ESRB.
Last I checked, that isn't the government, that's an organization the video game industry supports and set up. It also does not place any special or different restrictions on "mature" games vs. games that receive a less harsh rating. The ESRB is NOT comparable to what Japan is doing.
Fortunately, there aren't that many popular console or computer games out there that glorify molestation or sexual intercourse with kids, so it doesn't get a lot of public attention.
But they do glorify all sorts of forms of gory, gory violence...and that has gotten LOADS of public attention over the years. There's also the "Primal Instinct" flap...was it Primal Instinct? The fighting game with the anthropomorphic animals I mean...where the one ape character Chaos who beat up on his opponents by farting and burping on them had a "finisher" where he pissed on his opponent till they died somehow...but again, you're oversimplifying the law down to "it's only going to ban or restrict things I don't like". I also think it's oversimplifying it to act like fictitious DRAWINGS of such things are somehow on the same level of photographing or video tapping ACTUAL depictions of such acts.
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At 12/16/10 11:01 PM, orangebomb wrote:
Wow, I like anime and all the good stuff attached, but these guys who threaten J-pop singers and VAs just because they're getting engaged, that would make hardcore Oakland Raiders fans seem kind of sane by comparison. That's Japan for ya, you expect the unexpected.
Not to mention the VA of the girl in Gobblemeister's sig got threatened as well, all because she has a boyfriend.
Good number of the stupidity came from 2chan (guess the stupidity applies to all the chans). It have gotten ridiculous.
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At 12/18/10 02:51 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:Do I need a five-step process in order to legimately conclude that goatze is fucking disgusting?You might. Because where you see disgusting, someone else may see funny, or even titilating.
The difference between you and me is that I have no problem labeling those people as freaks, and I would have no problem with arbitrarily restricting any of their freakish imagery.
But yeah, when I think about it, it would be a problem if I had to approve or disapprove absolutely everything. I don't know if I could trust even my own gut instincts to be consistent, and it wouldn't be fair to commerical producers if they weren't.
Censorship is a lot more palatable when you think of it as a one-time event targeting something in particular.
At 12/18/10 01:21 PM, adrshepard wrote: The difference between you and me is that I have no problem labeling those people as freaks, and I would have no problem with arbitrarily restricting any of their freakish imagery.
Censorship is a lot more palatable when you think of it as a one-time event targeting something in particular.
And that, in a nutshell, is what makes it so dangerous.
Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
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