Couple poems I wrote...

[KingBreakerMichael]

I wrote these for the girl that I like. I'm kinda falling for her, but I doubt that she'll see that on here. I already gave her hard copies of them (I literally wrote them for her), so here goes.

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Fallen Angels
When Angels fall to Earth Normally they're ignored By any they're not meant to meet.
But sometimes early on You meet that special one And above all else, they make your heart beat.

And beat it does, my blasting heart, until the end of days
For you amaze me every day, in innumerable ways.

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Feeling the Pain

Some say pain is pointless,
Others it shows their strife
For me pain is different,
It's a teacher for your life.

Your pain may be like theirs,
But this I will believe,
I think your pain gives you
The meaning that my pain gives me.

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Hope you guys at least enjoyed them... They really came from my heart for her, so no matter what, I like them, and she loved them too.

Other than that, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. :)

[steelcreed]

I hoped she liked them. They're really quite lovely in places and sometimes a line just clicks, "Blasting heart" paticuarly.

However, sometimes the rhythm can be clunky and the lines drawn out. Whilst a poem does not need to fit a regular pattern to "flow", it does need to have a bit more of an internal rhythm. The second one especially feels a little awkward.

Thats not to say they're not good poems, just practice a little more with your line structure and I'm sure you'll be able to write even better ones for her next time :)

[SteveDude64]

I liked both of them, although the second did feel a little awkward.

[KemCab]

At 12/7/10 03:18 PM, KingBreakerMichael wrote: I wrote these for the girl that I like. I'm kinda falling for her,

This would be a perfect time to reevaluate your poetry.

Fallen Angels

Why do you capitalize certain words?

Feeling the Pain

Doesn't make any sense; I read it as "pain is experience, your pain is my pain, blah blah blah."

Hope you guys at least enjoyed them... They really came from my heart for her, so no matter what, I like them, and she loved them too.

I guess they're okay if you're trying to get in her pants or something. Otherwise, they're not much better than mediocre.

[KingBreakerMichael]

At 12/7/10 09:31 PM, KemCab wrote:

At 12/7/10 03:18 PM, KingBreakerMichael wrote: I wrote these for the girl that I like. I'm kinda falling for her,

This would be a perfect time to reevaluate your poetry.

Fallen Angels

Why do you capitalize certain words?

Feeling the Pain

Doesn't make any sense; I read it as "pain is experience, your pain is my pain, blah blah blah."

Hope you guys at least enjoyed them... They really came from my heart for her, so no matter what, I like them, and she loved them too.

I guess they're okay if you're trying to get in her pants or something. Otherwise, they're not much better than mediocre.

For Fallen Angels, I actually wrote it in the lines I wrote it in, then decided to change that for this (to save the enter key from death...) and for Feeling the Pain, I wrote it as "Pain teaches you things, I just hope you're learning as well as I am."

And really, getting in her pants? Why the hell would I want to do that? I'm not after tail, you senseless moron. Seriously, if a guy writes poetry for a girl, it doesn't mean he wants in her pants, it means he wants in her heart. Then maybe in a few years get in her pants, I don't know, sure. But not now.

Sheesh.

And for the other two of you that actually gave me CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM (which is a good thing, thank you!) I thank you for your legitimate reviews, and I'll work on them as well as I can. :)

[KemCab]

At 12/7/10 10:20 PM, KingBreakerMichael wrote: For Fallen Angels, I actually wrote it in the lines I wrote it in, then decided to change that for this

NG doesn't have an edit button; you should have corrected that before hand.

(to save the enter key from death...) and for Feeling the Pain, I wrote it as "Pain teaches you things, I just hope you're learning as well as I am."

Oh. I guess that's like a Hallmark card sentiment then, at best.

And really, getting in her pants? Why the hell would I want to do that?

You wouldn't be attracted to her if you didn't. Psychology 101.

I'm not after tail, you senseless moron. Seriously, if a guy writes poetry for a girl, it doesn't mean he wants in her pants, it means he wants in her heart.

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

Then maybe in a few years get in her pants, I don't know, sure. But not now.

Yeah, see?

And for the other two of you that actually gave me CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM (which is a good thing, thank you!) I thank you for your legitimate reviews, and I'll work on them as well as I can. :)

So mine's not legit because it's negative? I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, it's just that love poems are clichéd. My perception of love poems are that they are truly unnecessary and really just a very passive way of showing affection -- notwithstanding, if you are going to write a poem for someone, keep it between yourselves unless it's really, really good. Otherwise it's just like all the billions of similar ones out there.

[DeftAndEvil]

At 12/7/10 03:18 PM, KingBreakerMichael wrote: I wrote these for the girl that I like. I'm kinda falling for her, but I doubt that she'll see that on here. I already gave her hard copies of them (I literally wrote them for her), so here goes.

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Fallen Angels
When Angels fall to Earth Normally they're ignored By any they're not meant to meet.

yep, this line is too long. and the caps threw me off at first but I reread it as it was meant to be. My question: why couldn't you use a ballad stanza:
a
b
a/c
b

But sometimes early on You meet that special one And above all else, they make your heart beat.

Some formalities: subject/verb agreement (one/they). um punctuation? Did you proof this before posting >.>?

And beat it does, my blasting heart, until the end of days
For you amaze me every day, in innumerable ways.

You're getting somewhere now. Day/meet are used twice (some words become redundant after a second use in poetry; I caught it rather fast. heart/beat is good). I agree with the dudes, innumerable is used clumsily here. Countless, endless, even infinite would work better.

Well, there is not much to this poem here. KemCab makes a good point: love poems are banal by nature. The comparison to an angel has been done before. The third line of the 2nd stanza is the best one, but the poem does not go anywhere original.

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Feeling the Pain

Some say pain is pointless,
Others it shows their strife

I see what you mean when you say "Others it shows" but it should be "Others, it." Don't worry bout it. But, if you took out their, it would flow much better.

For me pain is different,

try writing it diff'rent. Then you got some simple rhythm going on.

It's a teacher for your life.

Your pain may be like theirs,
But this I will believe,
I think your pain gives you
The meaning that my pain gives me.

um, did anyone else notice the glaring contradiction between line 5/7-8? Also, the rhythm is way off, but can be easily corrected. Rewrite: The meaning mine gives me. Then you got 6 syllables each line for a nice little rhythm.

Some thoughts: Do you read your poems aloud? If you did you'd realize how awkward they sound at places. Hm, the poems don't really do much for me. I am a big fan of romanticism (not romance), but there really aren't any romantic elements here. Try to be original while maintaining your writing integrity. Hm.

Something more: don't be offended when someone critiques your work. We are just trying to help. Although he came off as a jerk (ya did), he offered more constructive criticism than "One part sounded weird, but I loved it." Good critics give you something to work with and improve on, while validating their criticisms. I gave you mine and gave you some reasons and also gave you some ideas/opinions for improvement.

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Hope you guys at least enjoyed them... They really came from my heart for her, so no matter what, I like them, and she loved them too.

Other than that, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. :)

[SSJDre]

At 12/7/10 03:18 PM, KingBreakerMichael wrote: I wrote these for the girl that I like. I'm kinda falling for her, but I doubt that she'll see that on here. I already gave her hard copies of them (I literally wrote them for her), so here goes.

----------------------------------------
--------------

Fallen Angels
When Angels fall to Earth Normally they're ignored By any they're not meant to meet.
But sometimes early on You meet that special one And above all else, they make your heart beat.

And beat it does, my blasting heart, until the end of days
For you amaze me every day, in innumerable ways.

----------------------------------------
-----------------

Feeling the Pain

Some say pain is pointless,
Others it shows their strife
For me pain is different,
It's a teacher for your life.

Your pain may be like theirs,
But this I will believe,
I think your pain gives you
The meaning that my pain gives me.

----------------------------------------
------------------

Hope you guys at least enjoyed them... They really came from my heart for her, so no matter what, I like them, and she loved them too.

Other than that, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. :)

Man, harsh crowd when it comes to words from the heart. I do see there point on how clunky it looks though, but even if it isn't original to everyone else, it's still the words that were chosen from his heart to communicate with hers. Does anyone not carry passion in their hearts anymore? But a few things that could rectify the clumsiness of the poems.

First with Fallen Angels

The written format is weird, but I think I know how you were meaning to write it.

When Angels fall to Earth,
Normally they're ignored,
By any they're not meant to meet.
But sometimes early on,
You meet that special one,
And above all else,
They make your heart beat.

And beat it does,
My blasting heart,
Until the end of days
For you amaze me every day,
In innumerable ways.

This written format looks a lot more presentable and is easier to follow, making the poem itself feel a lot less clunky. But this way also shows that your first stanza was a bit bigger than your second stanza. That that it's that big a deal, but you usually want your poems to be evenly divisible. And while I do agree that you could have used a better word than "Innumerable" in the last line, so many of the other words that would have fit the place are commonly used, which I think is the reason for your word choice, for which I congratulate you for thinking differently. It's not a bad poem overall, and I'm sure if she actually read it, she'll appreciate it. I get where you are coming from and why you said what you said, I was once in the position of using my poetry to express my affections to my love, and I married her. So don't let anyone tell you that Love poetry is pointless.

Next up is Feeling the Pain (Which was capitalized because it's the title)

Some say pain is pointless,
Others it shows their strife
For me pain is different,
It's a teacher for your life.

Your pain may be like theirs,
But this I will believe,
I think your pain gives you
The meaning that my pain gives me.

This is how you wrote it, now I'll rewrite it and make a few small changes, let me know what you think.

Some say pain is pointless,
To others, it shows their strife
For me, that pain is different,
It's a teacher for your life.

To you, it may feel like theirs,
But this is what I will believe,
I think your pain grants to you,
The meaning that it gives to me.

The overuse of one word can really make a poem feel boring, unless it is to a specific person, then they usually don't care, but this is for your future poetry, to help you mold it into something bigger. I'm not meaning to disrespect your work either by doing a rewrite like that, but it's just to show you have simple changes can make a poem sound much different, as well as give it a more natural rhythm. Don't be afraid to use a few extra words to make the pace feel better. Just don't go over board and throw a bunch of useless words in your poems. Either way, I'd like to say that I'm proud of you for being bold enough to give her the poems and then post them here to be critiqued. Keep writing, you'll get better over time.

[Deathcon7]

Bad poetry is like bad ideas; if no one knows any better, it may as well be good. If your objective is to satisfy an individual and you accomplished that goal, then be satisfied. If you decide to post it publicly, however, do not get offended when critique is provided which gives you a more fully informed opinion. A majority of the compliments in this thread are wholly underserved. If you had a desire to improve, however, you wouldn't have disqualified yourself with the side note at the end of your OP.

If, in the end, you do decide you would like to write poems that more closely express your affections, then please request a review in the review request link in my signature.

[LarxII]

There is constructive criticism and then there is just plain harsh. I think Kemcab crossed the line. With that said I like both of the poems. But, they both need some critiquing.
"Some say pain is pointless,
Others it shows their strife
For me pain is different,
It's a teacher for your life."

the last one I think should be read as " It's a teacher in my life" or somewhere along those lines.
The Fallen Angels one defiantly should of been put into verses like your second one.
I'm not very experienced as a critic so take what I say with a grain of salt. I enjoyed reading and hope to see more from you.

[KemCab]

At 12/9/10 11:29 AM, Deathcon7 wrote: Bad poetry is like bad ideas; if no one knows any better, it may as well be good.

Which was exactly why I said it would probably be suitable for getting into a girl's pants.

If you decide to post it publicly, however, do not get offended when critique is provided which gives you a more fully informed opinion.

I've written more detailed review posts about others' poetry and writing. I just didn't feel like doing it for this one, just because everything about it is trite and clichéd. And as such, it's just a longer version of "I love you."

At 12/9/10 01:11 PM, LarxII wrote: There is constructive criticism and then there is just plain harsh. I think Kemcab crossed the line.

Nope. I didn't cross the line because there was no line for me to cross.

[SSJDre]

At 12/9/10 03:25 PM, KemCab wrote:

At 12/9/10 11:29 AM, Deathcon7 wrote: Bad poetry is like bad ideas; if no one knows any better, it may as well be good.

Which was exactly why I said it would probably be suitable for getting into a girl's pants.

If you decide to post it publicly, however, do not get offended when critique is provided which gives you a more fully informed opinion.

I've written more detailed review posts about others' poetry and writing. I just didn't feel like doing it for this one, just because everything about it is trite and clichéd. And as such, it's just a longer version of "I love you."

At 12/9/10 01:11 PM, LarxII wrote: There is constructive criticism and then there is just plain harsh. I think Kemcab crossed the line.

Nope. I didn't cross the line because there was no line for me to cross.

I know this phrase has been used far too much as it is, but "It's not what you said, but how you said it". I understand where you're coming from with what you said, but come on man, you could be a little be more delicate to the guy's feelings. I'm not saying don't critique it, because I did too, but sometimes being that blunt can come off rude.

And my turn of phrase also fits with the usage of his poetry. Yes, he's saying I love you in a long winded way, lots of people have. But you know what, the people that put the thought into how they want to express themselves to those they care about, usually stay in relationships longer, and are happier. Don't be pessimistic because it's not your preferred way of doing things.

The meaning in your critique was good, but the words use to convey that critique just seemed mean. And I also agree with Deathcon about bad poetry, but I always look at the lighter side of things. These are probably his first steps to making something bigger, help him with the problems so that when he does something else that is similar, he'll know how to have it better represented. In my critique I gave a few pointers just trying to help him along, I wasn't blunt, but I got my point across. Maybe you just feel the use of the extra words is pointless and would rather get it done as quick as possible, it just doesn't work that well for everyone, I guess that's my current point.

[DeftAndEvil]

Well, if the OP was satisfied with his poem and gave it to his girl, that shoulda been fine. But, the fact is he posted his poem on NG. So, he was either expecting comments or reviews. I suppose KemCab came off as a jerk (lol) but the OP was an equally jerky jerk (lol). Don't get offended so easily friend. If this was really from the heart, then you shouldn't care if we think it is a mediocre poem (which I think it is, if you still think it's good, good for you, friend).

[KemCab]

At 12/9/10 03:57 PM, SSJDre wrote: I'm not saying don't critique it, because I did too, but sometimes being that blunt can come off rude.

Of course it can. In fact, that's why I did it. Because it's better than dancing around my opinion. If I had tried to make a lengthy, 'compassionate' critique he would not get my point, and if he does not get my point, I am simply wasting my time writing a verbose, empty review.

And my turn of phrase also fits with the usage of his poetry. Yes, he's saying I love you in a long winded way, lots of people have. But you know what, the people that put the thought into how they want to express themselves to those they care about, usually stay in relationships longer, and are happier. Don't be pessimistic because it's not your preferred way of doing things.

It's not that. I could probably write a great love poem with enough alcohol and infatuation. A love poem like this is a restatement of 'I love you', whereas a really good one -- a longer, more vivid, more colorful one -- goes beyond that, transcends it. One doesn't have to be another Percy Bysshe Shelley to write good poetry, but a first step would be getting past the use of tired phrases like "that special one" or "end of days."

It also feels clumsy and somewhat impersonal. In the first poem he says, "you meet that special one," but the 'you' that he uses there is not the same 'you' he refers to in the second stanza ("for you amaze me every day"). The former is used similarly to the French on or German man, but the latter refers directly to the person he's addressing. That creates confusion; it's not to the point, it's indirect.

The first stanza should be rewritten completely; he should not say "when angels fall to earth," but rather, "you are an angel"; instead of "they make your heart beat" he should say "you make my heart beat"; et cetera. In any case, the usage of 'they' in that line is grammatically incorrect and impersonal -- if anything, he should say "she makes your heart beat."

And so on.

I wasn't blunt, but I got my point across.

I don't think I was blunt enough, frankly, but then again there is a 'fine line' between being constructively critical and abusive, apparently. You know, the best way to get a point across is to lead by example. When I wake up in the morning (or afternoon) I will attempt to do so.

[LarxII]

Much more clarity from Kemcab. Appreciated that you aren't like some others and keep bashing without explanation or clarification. You're a good critic.

[SSJDre]

At 12/10/10 02:08 AM, KemCab wrote:

At 12/9/10 03:57 PM, SSJDre wrote: I'm not saying don't critique it, because I did too, but sometimes being that blunt can come off rude.

Of course it can. In fact, that's why I did it. Because it's better than dancing around my opinion. If I had tried to make a lengthy, 'compassionate' critique he would not get my point, and if he does not get my point, I am simply wasting my time writing a verbose, empty review.

And my turn of phrase also fits with the usage of his poetry. Yes, he's saying I love you in a long winded way, lots of people have. But you know what, the people that put the thought into how they want to express themselves to those they care about, usually stay in relationships longer, and are happier. Don't be pessimistic because it's not your preferred way of doing things.

It's not that. I could probably write a great love poem with enough alcohol and infatuation. A love poem like this is a restatement of 'I love you', whereas a really good one -- a longer, more vivid, more colorful one -- goes beyond that, transcends it. One doesn't have to be another Percy Bysshe Shelley to write good poetry, but a first step would be getting past the use of tired phrases like "that special one" or "end of days."

It also feels clumsy and somewhat impersonal. In the first poem he says, "you meet that special one," but the 'you' that he uses there is not the same 'you' he refers to in the second stanza ("for you amaze me every day"). The former is used similarly to the French on or German man, but the latter refers directly to the person he's addressing. That creates confusion; it's not to the point, it's indirect.

The first stanza should be rewritten completely; he should not say "when angels fall to earth," but rather, "you are an angel"; instead of "they make your heart beat" he should say "you make my heart beat"; et cetera. In any case, the usage of 'they' in that line is grammatically incorrect and impersonal -- if anything, he should say "she makes your heart beat."

And so on.

I wasn't blunt, but I got my point across.

I don't think I was blunt enough, frankly, but then again there is a 'fine line' between being constructively critical and abusive, apparently. You know, the best way to get a point across is to lead by example. When I wake up in the morning (or afternoon) I will attempt to do so.

Alright, I just saw this, and you make some valid points. You can't look at poetry from a scholastic point of view. It's not as cut and dry as you may feel. I know a lot of what he said was mundane and has been used repeatedly. I do agree colorful imagery would really help, and you're right on that. Most songs or poetry nowadays, even good ones, have some grammatical malfunctions, but how many people can you honestly say make correct use of every word in their language, no matter what it is? Now, when you put up your poem, I will definitely read it, and I'll review it the same way I did his. If there is anything that I can suggest, I will, if not, then you will have stumped me, which for most of my life, has been rare. Poetry itself is about feeling, not making sure that everything is put in it's proper place, though that helps make the poetry itself more appealing, it doesn't do anything for the emotion of it. I could argue with you about it, but where would that lead us. This thread has become more about proper writing mechanics than the actual poem itself, to which most poets don't spend that much time on when they feel the work is perfected. If it conveys what you want it to, then that is really all that matters. I'm thinking though our view points just aren't going to align, so with that, I am ending my have of this conversation. but I am looking forward to that poem.

[SSJDre]

I'm doing this because I want to see what everyone thinks, in all forms, tear me to shreds if you feel that it what it needs, but the only way to show what I mean about the "feeling" in the poetry. I actually wrote at a lady's request as an anniversary gift for her husband. She explained her feelings about him, and I merely turned them into the words she was trying to find. As Kemcab said, you must lead by example, so I'll put my work here, with this short poem.

My Eternal Soulmate

Thank you for being in my life, for allowing me into yours,
For being my all, my everything, my other half,
I'm not complete when you aren't with me,
My heart feels half gone, half empty when you're not near,
Like my body is an unfinished work of art,
A blank canvas missing the stroke of the painter,
An unused page in a novel, void of the words I need,
I how wonder how you have this effect on me,
How you can close the opening within me,
And why it is that I must have you in close proximity,
To feel you in my radius, to connect with your aura,
You are my soulmate, the eternal end to my everlasting beginning,
While I may be the pages of the story, you are the binding that holds me,
Enveloping me within your strength and power, keeping me safe,
I need you more than the oxygen in the air,
Because my world has a hole that can only be filled by you,
And without that space covered by you, I'm bound to be drawn in,
To be pulled to the sadness that awaits me if you were to disappear,
So my love, thank you for standing with me, holding me steady,
Being the piece to complete me, as I complete you, I love you.

Remember, this poem was written as a request, from the point of view of a woman, but I am the writer. Let me know what you think.

[KemCab]

At 12/10/10 03:12 PM, SSJDre wrote: It's not as cut and dry as you may feel.

I don't think my reviewing is all that 'cut and dry.' And it's not like I have any specific criteria for what makes a poem good. It's all subjective: if I like it, I like it, and if I don't like it, or parts thereof, then I have to explain why I don't like it otherwise I'm just wasting bandwidth here.

Most songs or poetry nowadays, even good ones, have some grammatical malfunctions, but how many people can you honestly say make correct use of every word in their language, no matter what it is?

Well, I take it for granted that colloquial usage is not the same as formal usage, and people use constructions in colloquial language (like "ain't," or "nothin',") that would not be acceptable in formal language. However, I have two main problems with his usage of "they make your heart beat." First, it's plain flat out wrong, and second, it's impersonal to use the third person to refer to the person you're addressing -- that detracts from its emotional aspects.

Poetry itself is about feeling, not making sure that everything is put in it's proper place, though that helps make the poetry itself more appealing, it doesn't do anything for the emotion of it.

Form does matter. In fact, the form does contribute to the overall 'feel' of the poem in some way. Suppose I rewrote the first two verses from Shakespeare's Sonnet 46 clumsily and haphazardly like this:

Mine Eye and Heart
Are at a mortal war
How to divide
The Conquest
Of thy sight

It would not be the same thing as the properly formatted version. Improper and neglectful use of form confuses meaning.

but I am looking forward to that poem.

I plan on doing it when I have the time.

At 12/10/10 03:25 PM, SSJDre wrote: Let me know what you think.

Now this is an excellent poem. I would have to spend a lot more time picking this apart. Even though you wrote it, it certainly does seem like it was written from the perspective of a woman -- at least as far as I can tell, I'm not terribly great with women. I interpret some of the metaphors to be sexual (or at least related to typical gender roles, I'm not sure), though I'm not sure if that's just a dirty mind at work, or whether it was intentional.

[SSJDre]

At 12/10/10 07:07 PM, KemCab wrote:

At 12/10/10 03:12 PM, SSJDre wrote: It's not as cut and dry as you may feel.

I don't think my reviewing is all that 'cut and dry.' And it's not like I have any specific criteria for what makes a poem good. It's all subjective: if I like it, I like it, and if I don't like it, or parts thereof, then I have to explain why I don't like it otherwise I'm just wasting bandwidth here.

Most songs or poetry nowadays, even good ones, have some grammatical malfunctions, but how many people can you honestly say make correct use of every word in their language, no matter what it is?

Well, I take it for granted that colloquial usage is not the same as formal usage, and people use constructions in colloquial language (like "ain't," or "nothin',") that would not be acceptable in formal language. However, I have two main problems with his usage of "they make your heart beat." First, it's plain flat out wrong, and second, it's impersonal to use the third person to refer to the person you're addressing -- that detracts from its emotional aspects.

Poetry itself is about feeling, not making sure that everything is put in it's proper place, though that helps make the poetry itself more appealing, it doesn't do anything for the emotion of it.

Form does matter. In fact, the form does contribute to the overall 'feel' of the poem in some way. Suppose I rewrote the first two verses from Shakespeare's Sonnet 46 clumsily and haphazardly like this:

Mine Eye and Heart
Are at a mortal war
How to divide
The Conquest
Of thy sight

It would not be the same thing as the properly formatted version. Improper and neglectful use of form confuses meaning.

but I am looking forward to that poem.

I plan on doing it when I have the time.

At 12/10/10 03:25 PM, SSJDre wrote: Let me know what you think.

Now this is an excellent poem. I would have to spend a lot more time picking this apart. Even though you wrote it, it certainly does seem like it was written from the perspective of a woman -- at least as far as I can tell, I'm not terribly great with women. I interpret some of the metaphors to be sexual (or at least related to typical gender roles, I'm not sure), though I'm not sure if that's just a dirty mind at work, or whether it was intentional.

There was no intention on my part to make it sound sexual, but I guess if you look at it, it could come off that way. I just wanted to capture the feelings that she had expressed. My thing with posting that particular poem was because I know I made a few mistakes with it. Though I won't point them out myself, simply because I'd rather it not be so noticeable, which would have people only looking at my foul ups. But I guess you have a point with the Shakespeare sonnet. Alright, that part I was wrong on. I guess I just felt like I had to take the big brother role, to protect and encourage. Though I know that our views will still differ, I have a bit better understanding of where you were coming from. I'm still not completing in a agreement with you, but that's just because we are different people with a different scope to look from.