Be a Supporter!

Pro Life Vs Pro Choice

  • 9,030 Views
  • 422 Replies
New Topic Respond to this Topic
VenomKing666
VenomKing666
  • Member since: May. 12, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 15th, 2010 @ 02:04 PM Reply

At 12/15/10 01:05 PM, SolInvictus wrote: you're going to have to expand; prescribing action for others is neither unusual nor frowned upon in most cases. the laws are full of things others say you can or cannot do. as social creatures who live in organised groups depedent on one another, it is necessary we have some degree of say in each others lives.

That is true and I agree. Some behaviors are bad and SHOULD be frowned upon. The obvious ones being murder thievery and of course anything restraining someone else's freedom.

now if you would like to make an argument as to how telling someone else what to do with their possible offspring is wrong, please do instead of stating it is wrong and one is full of themselves for doing so. (while a statement may fit the definition of argument, what i'm referring to is a statement presented with its logical components)

Well see. Why are some people saying they do not want other people to have abortions?

I think you will agree that it is because of some sort of moral standard. Is it moral or not to deny a future human being a possible life? That is what most people will ask themselves. But you have to consider that there are more than one life in the game. The future mother being the main one, is she able to take care and give a decent life to this children? Also the dad, is he even still around? etc. I think women that are pregnant should be able to chose whether they want a baby to come in their lives and to chose if they think they are mature enough to do so themselves. And this is why I think it is rude that other people come and thinking about just a fetus that at this point in existence just IS, and tell other people to have it regardless of the consequences for obscure "morals" that are not quite moral at all if you ask me.

The-General-Public
The-General-Public
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 07
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 15th, 2010 @ 10:13 PM Reply

At 12/15/10 11:50 AM, sharpnova wrote:
But you can't be both. If you are, you won't see it as Pro-life vs Pro-choice. You'll see it as a wide continuous spectrum that is far from black and white.

*yawn*

Enough with this. I'm sick of people chiming in with "it's not as black and white as it seems!" as if it's the most profound thing ever spoken. Of course it isn't. "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are just imperfect descriptions given out of convention to two generally different positions on the issue of abortion and bodily rights. But it's a useful convention, which is more than I can say for anything you've said thus far.

Maybe we have different standards for what "intelligent" means. I tend to think of "intelligent" people as those who are far above the norm in genetic intelligence and capacity for abstract thought.
Light
Light
  • Member since: May. 29, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Reader
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 06:09 AM Reply

At 12/15/10 12:03 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
At 12/15/10 02:16 AM, Jedi-Master wrote: I could say the VERY SAME thing to you as a pro-life argument if I changed several words.
No you can't. I challenge you to do it.

You said:If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else if they should keep or not their baby it's time to revisit your morals

My version for the lulz:
If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else that they can abort their baby anytime, then it's time to revisit your morals.


I was formerly known as "Jedi-Master."

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

BBS Signature
The-General-Public
The-General-Public
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 07
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 06:49 AM Reply

At 12/16/10 06:09 AM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/15/10 12:03 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
At 12/15/10 02:16 AM, Jedi-Master wrote: I could say the VERY SAME thing to you as a pro-life argument if I changed several words.
No you can't. I challenge you to do it.
You said:If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else if they should keep or not their baby it's time to revisit your morals

My version for the lulz:
If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else that they can abort their baby anytime, then it's time to revisit your morals.

Ugh, he really shouldnt've originally used the word baby. But either way, that's a misrepresentation of the Pro-choice position as I doubt many of us consider fetuses to be babies.

Light
Light
  • Member since: May. 29, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Reader
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 06:54 AM Reply

At 12/16/10 06:49 AM, The-General-Public wrote:
At 12/16/10 06:09 AM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/15/10 12:03 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
At 12/15/10 02:16 AM, Jedi-Master wrote: I could say the VERY SAME thing to you as a pro-life argument if I changed several words.
No you can't. I challenge you to do it.
You said:If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else if they should keep or not their baby it's time to revisit your morals

My version for the lulz:
If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else that they can abort their baby anytime, then it's time to revisit your morals.
Ugh, he really shouldnt've originally used the word baby. But either way, that's a misrepresentation of the Pro-choice position as I doubt many of us consider fetuses to be babies.

This is assuming that even the pro-lifers saw babies in the womb as fetuses and nothing more. But that isn't the case. The pro-lifers will always think fetuses are people too, and the pro-choicers will consider fetuses to be that and nothing more.


I was formerly known as "Jedi-Master."

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

BBS Signature
satanbrain
satanbrain
  • Member since: Dec. 6, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 40
Melancholy
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 09:09 AM Reply

At 12/14/10 09:34 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: I'll reiterate again... "There is more significant chance that he'll succeed than that you will succeed to convice women not to abort."

Do you understand why I'm responding to one claim by reiterating the other?

You can waste time and resources on convincing but changing one's mind is harder than kidnapping a baby.

Do you even know what argument of yours I'm disagreeing with? Because this response certainly suggests that you don't... or you're not doing a very good job of connecting the dots for me.

the one that you reiterated, if not then you could've reiterated another argument.

Which is consequential to the aformentioned "above point and counter" how?
I didn't just ask you why it mattered. I asked you why it mattered to a specific point.

it contradicts your example.

Are you affirming only that the nourishment is theirs? Because that's not what I asked.
If a thief is living on stealing shops and these shops are closed, Is his death from starving their fault?
No. So?

A fetus, a parasite, is nourished from the mother. If the mother decides that her supplies should not be stolen to nourish a fetus she doesn't want, then the fetus can be considered a thief.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

BBS Signature
sharpnova
sharpnova
  • Member since: Feb. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 11:39 AM Reply

At 12/15/10 10:13 PM, The-General-Public wrote: Enough with this. I'm sick of people chiming in with "it's not as black and white as it seems!" as if it's the most profound thing ever spoken. Of course it isn't. "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are just imperfect descriptions given out of convention to two generally different positions on the issue of abortion and bodily rights. But it's a useful convention, which is more than I can say for anything you've said thus far.

Wrong.

The debate isn't waged with any of that in mind. People are firmly on one end of the spectrum or the other.

I know religious people like you live in a completely black and white world.. but it's time to wake up.


= + ^ e * i pi 1 0

Imperator
Imperator
  • Member since: Oct. 10, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 12:52 PM Reply

I'm pro-women.

The way I look at it, pro-life is anti-women. Restricting women of their reproductive rights makes them second class citizens.


Writing Forum Reviewer.
PM me
for preferential Writing Forum review treatment.
See my NG page for a regularly updated list of works I will review.

The-General-Public
The-General-Public
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 07
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 12:55 PM Reply

At 12/16/10 11:39 AM, sharpnova wrote: The debate isn't waged with any of that in mind. People are firmly on one end of the spectrum or the other.

Yeah, I'm firmly on one end of the spectrum, but I understand why the people on the other end of the spectrum believe what they do, as much as I disagree with them. For the life of me I can't understand a word of the gibberish you're spewing out though.

I know religious people like you live in a completely black and white world.. but it's time to wake up.

Are you high or something?

Bacchanalian
Bacchanalian
  • Member since: Mar. 4, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 16th, 2010 @ 05:44 PM Reply

It is a bit delicious that the sharpnova should make his entire argument that things aren't black and white, and then presume the first person who disagrees with him that is ideologically opposed to him in matters of both religion and womens' reproductive rights.


BBS Signature
VenomKing666
VenomKing666
  • Member since: May. 12, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 03:19 AM Reply

At 12/16/10 06:09 AM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/15/10 12:03 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
At 12/15/10 02:16 AM, Jedi-Master wrote: I could say the VERY SAME thing to you as a pro-life argument if I changed several words.
No you can't. I challenge you to do it.
You said:If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else if they should keep or not their baby it's time to revisit your morals

My version for the lulz:
If you are that much of an asshole to tell someone else that they can abort their baby anytime, then it's time to revisit your morals.

See, here is where you fail to understand:

In my sentence the person is an asshole because he choses for the other person.

In your sentence the person cannot be an asshole because he lets the other person chose whether or not they want to abort the goddamn baby.

Get it?

Vousielle
Vousielle
  • Member since: Jul. 18, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 16
Artist
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 09:57 AM Reply

Abortion is a horrible thing, and adoption is preferable, but it is morally indefensible to try to force women to take a course of action that will financially ruin both their life, and the life of their child. It is a hard choice, and neither I nor anyone else has the right to make it for the mother.


Freedom of Speech: Priceless, for everything else there's MasterCard

BBS Signature
The-General-Public
The-General-Public
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 07
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 12:00 PM Reply

At 12/10/10 12:29 AM, Ravariel wrote:
Show me an integer.

show me a culture that doesn't have a concept of an integer.

The-universe
The-universe
  • Member since: Apr. 6, 2010
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 03
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 01:02 PM Reply

At 12/17/10 12:00 PM, The-General-Public wrote:
At 12/10/10 12:29 AM, Ravariel wrote:
Show me an integer.
show me a culture that doesn't have a concept of an integer.

*looks at my fingers*

Not this one.


It's not the lack of crimes that values your morality but your capacity for contrition.

Click this and one day I'll be worth bazillions.

camobch0
camobch0
  • Member since: Jan. 10, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Gamer
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 02:12 PM Reply

At 12/17/10 09:57 AM, Vousielle wrote: Abortion is a horrible thing, and adoption is preferable, but it is morally indefensible to try to force women to take a course of action that will financially ruin both their life, and the life of their child.

How exactly does it financially ruin the life of the mother?


A vagina is really just a hat for a penis.

BBS Signature
Bacchanalian
Bacchanalian
  • Member since: Mar. 4, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 02:28 PM Reply

At 12/16/10 09:09 AM, satanbrain wrote: You can waste time and resources on convincing but changing one's mind is harder than kidnapping a baby.

And lets come full circle.

I'll reiterate again. You said, "If someone doesn't want a baby to die he'll always be able to take care of it, otherwise he's a hypocrite."

And I'll ask again, do you understand why I'm responding to one claim by reiterating the other?

the one that you reiterated, if not then you could've reiterated another argument.

Try that again in English. Try... simple sentences.

it contradicts your example.

Please quote for me the example you're talking about, and describe the contradiction.

A fetus, a parasite, is nourished from the mother. If the mother decides that her supplies should not be stolen to nourish a fetus she doesn't want, then the fetus can be considered a thief.

Oh. Ok. So in your analogy, the baby has alternative options for nourishment and the thief is a kleptomaniac?

You do realize your analogy doesn't stop at defining what a thief is right? You are aware of the point you're trying to make right?


BBS Signature
Vousielle
Vousielle
  • Member since: Jul. 18, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 16
Artist
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 03:49 PM Reply

At 12/17/10 02:12 PM, camobch0 wrote:
At 12/17/10 09:57 AM, Vousielle wrote: Abortion is a horrible thing, and adoption is preferable, but it is morally indefensible to try to force women to take a course of action that will financially ruin both their life, and the life of their child.
How exactly does it financially ruin the life of the mother?

Fair enough, I am focusing on the situation of teen pregnancy and single parenthood, in which case the the mother is unlikely to get a suitable education and thus a job, and will struggle financially without the support of the father. You are right, I should have been more specific.


Freedom of Speech: Priceless, for everything else there's MasterCard

BBS Signature
satanbrain
satanbrain
  • Member since: Dec. 6, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 40
Melancholy
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 17th, 2010 @ 10:29 PM Reply

At 12/17/10 02:28 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: I'll reiterate again. You said, "If someone doesn't want a baby to die he'll always be able to take care of it, otherwise he's a hypocrite."

Changing people's minds is much harder than physically kidnaping or finding a baby.

And I'll ask again, do you understand why I'm responding to one claim by reiterating the other?

Trying to contradict the claim?

Try that again in English. Try... simple sentences.

The one agrument you have reiterated: "If you know the specific baby that is going to be neglected and eventually die you'll probably know at least where he is.".

Please quote for me the example you're talking about, and describe the contradiction.

"Also, are you familiar with those missing children things on the sides of milk cartons? Cause by your logic, those things should have a 99% success rate, and merely by looking at it one should become immediately aware of their the missing child's location."

Babies will die or be taken care of before you even know they are missing. Children are less dependent and have more chance of survival by their own, when you become aware of children's absence there is significant chance they are still alive and wandering.

Oh. Ok. So in your analogy, the baby has alternative options for nourishment and the thief is a kleptomaniac?

Even if the thief has no other option, the one he stole from can decide to stop the theft and that would not be immoral.

You do realize your analogy doesn't stop at defining what a thief is right? You are aware of the point you're trying to make right?

"If a thief is living on stealing shops and these shops are closed, Is his death from starving their fault?
No. So?"


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

BBS Signature
Light
Light
  • Member since: May. 29, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Reader
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 18th, 2010 @ 01:39 AM Reply

At 12/17/10 03:19 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:
In your sentence the person cannot be an asshole because he lets the other person chose whether or not they want to abort the goddamn baby.

Get it?

I suppose. But I'm just saying that you should recant your earlier post stating that anyone who is pro-life is an asshole, as that is blatantly ignorant.


I was formerly known as "Jedi-Master."

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

BBS Signature
WolvenBear
WolvenBear
  • Member since: Jun. 7, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 10
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 18th, 2010 @ 06:35 AM Reply

At 12/14/10 08:23 PM, The-General-Public wrote: We're not claiming morality doesn't exist, we're asking you why you believe an objective morality given by god exists. Which you've failed to do so far.

Actuallly, I have. I've given two options. I've given the existance of morality, which exists beyond human reasoning. Or there is preference, which exists at public whim. I've given these answers DOZENS of times. And I'm tired of repeating myself so I'll just ignore stupid answers that ask me to from here on out.

Ok stop signs, I'll add "analogies" to the things you're bad at.

There's a huge amount of intersections without those either. We'll add "knowing what you're talking about" to the things you suck at.

I'm not denying that there exists a code of behavioral conduct that differentiates intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong). In fact I'm arguing that many different codes of morality exist. You're arguing that only one does.

Yet, here's the problem. It's impossible to call one right or one wrong under your worldview.

Actually that's completely false, Abortions are more frequent now than at any point since the 1970s. Not only that, the Supreme Court at its most conservative held up the precedent set in Roe v Wade several times. Now the court is more liberal than it was even then. Oops.

Jesus. That's devastating. And if any of that was right....I'd be sad. Of course, every single part of that is wrong, or irrelevant. The Supreme Court (apparently more conservative now than ever) issued the first ever upholding of restriction on abortion by upholding the Partial Birth Abortion Ban.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story .php?storyId=5029934

Aw, well that sucks, contrary to your narrative, liberal laws went into effect til 89, then started swinging back. You're wrong. Darn.

You pointed out evidence that directly refuted your argument that a universal morality exited. Good job.

I've done that repeatedly since my first comment. You're a stupid one aren't you?

Man, if you could read, you might be dangerous in a debate.

At 12/16/10 12:52 PM, Imperator wrote: I'm pro-women.

The way I look at it, pro-life is anti-women. Restricting women of their reproductive rights makes them second class citizens.

Ah, anyone who thinks I'm wrong hates women! The oldest and most ridiculous trick in the book!


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

The-General-Public
The-General-Public
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 07
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 18th, 2010 @ 09:24 AM Reply

At 12/18/10 06:35 AM, WolvenBear wrote:
Actuallly, I have. I've given two options. I've given the existance of morality, which exists beyond human reasoning. Or there is preference, which exists at public whim. I've given these answers DOZENS of times. And I'm tired of repeating myself so I'll just ignore stupid answers that ask me to from here on out.

That's a false dichotomy. Your definition of morality is wrong. From Webster's

Morality
a doctrine or system of moral conduct

Ctrl+F "beyond human reasoning" hmm nope.

There's a huge amount of intersections without those either. We'll add "knowing what you're talking about" to the things you suck at.

completely missing the point is something you excel at though.

Yet, here's the problem. It's impossible to call one right or one wrong under your worldview.

How's that a problem? I gladly accept that. I like my system more than yours, and think it's better for the health and happiness of society. I don't care whether it's "right" or "wrong" beyond that. And I reallydon't care whether you or whatever God you believe in thinks my system is "right" or "wrong" either.

Actually that's completely false, Abortions are more frequent now than at any point since the 1970s. Not only that, the Supreme Court at its most conservative held up the precedent set in Roe v Wade several times. Now the court is more liberal than it was even then. Oops.
Jesus. That's devastating. And if any of that was right....I'd be sad. Of course, every single part of that is wrong, or irrelevant. The Supreme Court (apparently more conservative now than ever)

Right, because Kagan and Sotomayor are really conservative.

issued the first ever upholding of restriction on abortion by upholding the Partial Birth Abortion Ban.
Actually, Intact dilation and extraction (IDX), aka "partial-birth" abortion made up slightly more than one tenth of a percent of all abortions in the US before being "banned" secondly, the actual legislation provided certain exceptions for certain cases. Because of these exceptions for maternal health, The number of partial-birth abortions performed in the US is...about one tenth of a percent of all abortions. Try doing some actual research beyond wikipedia.

Aw, well that sucks, contrary to your narrative, liberal laws went into effect til 89, then started swinging back.

Not really. Laws have remained basically static so far, with no noticeable affect on the actual amount of abortions performed. notice that the amount of abortions dramatically increased during the Bush administration after declining during the Clinton years.

I've done that repeatedly since my first comment. You're a stupid one aren't you?

Right, you've destroyed your own argument and I'm the stupid one.

Ah, anyone who thinks I'm wrong hates women! The oldest and most ridiculous trick in the book!

Well you are the one who thinks women can be ordered what to do with their bodies.

Bacchanalian
Bacchanalian
  • Member since: Mar. 4, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 18th, 2010 @ 02:01 PM Reply

At 12/17/10 10:29 PM, satanbrain wrote: Trying to contradict the claim?

Do you understand what contradiction I'm trying to highlight?

The one agrument you have reiterated: "If you know the specific baby that is going to be neglected and eventually die you'll probably know at least where he is.".

Ok. You hold that "you can investigate where was the last place he was seen in and search for him," given that the whereabouts of a baby are not known. How is that a defense of the case that one would know where the baby is?

"Also, are you familiar with those missing children things on the sides of milk cartons? Cause by your logic, those things should have a 99% success rate, and merely by looking at it one should become immediately aware of their the missing child's location."

Babies will die or be taken care of before you even know they are missing. Children are less dependent and have more chance of survival by their own, when you become aware of children's absence there is significant chance they are still alive and wandering.

How does that contradict the argument being made? As a reminder, the argument being made: merely knowing an infant (or child) does not mean you know where they are. How does chance of survival refute that?

Oh. Ok. So in your analogy, the baby has alternative options for nourishment and the thief is a kleptomaniac?
Even if the thief has no other option, the one he stole from can decide to stop the theft and that would not be immoral.

It would still be their fault. Perhaps you need to revise your analogy so as to not conflate responsibility with morality.

You do realize your analogy doesn't stop at defining what a thief is right? You are aware of the point you're trying to make right?
"If a thief is living on stealing shops and these shops are closed, Is his death from starving their fault?
No. So?"

Let me help. "Is his death from starving their fault?"


BBS Signature
The-General-Public
The-General-Public
  • Member since: Mar. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 07
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 18th, 2010 @ 04:13 PM Reply

At 12/9/10 11:23 PM, Ravariel wrote: Math is descriptive, not proscriptive, and description requires cognition which requires social interaction between a mind and the physical world.
Math is actually one of the most cultural things in the universe.

You're misusing the word cultural.

Ravariel
Ravariel
  • Member since: Apr. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 12
Musician
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 20th, 2010 @ 08:41 AM Reply

At 12/18/10 04:13 PM, The-General-Public wrote:
At 12/9/10 11:23 PM, Ravariel wrote: Math is descriptive, not proscriptive, and description requires cognition which requires social interaction between a mind and the physical world.
Math is actually one of the most cultural things in the universe.
You're misusing the word cultural.

Is that so?

Culture, as defined by anthropologists, is the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively. Tell me how that does not describe mathematics.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

MoRGoT1-1
MoRGoT1-1
  • Member since: Feb. 23, 2003
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 29
Gamer
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 20th, 2010 @ 06:32 PM Reply

no point in arguing pro choice DOT nobody can pretend to choose for somebody else,


Cry while training to laugh on the battlefield

VenomKing666
VenomKing666
  • Member since: May. 12, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 20th, 2010 @ 06:46 PM Reply

At 12/20/10 08:41 AM, Ravariel wrote:
At 12/18/10 04:13 PM, The-General-Public wrote:
At 12/9/10 11:23 PM, Ravariel wrote: Math is descriptive, not proscriptive, and description requires cognition which requires social interaction between a mind and the physical world.
Math is actually one of the most cultural things in the universe.
You're misusing the word cultural.
Is that so?

Culture, as defined by anthropologists, is the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively. Tell me how that does not describe mathematics.

Maths is not creative use of symbols. It's scientific, it is rigid. You cannot argue mathematic results. Mathematics are a way to put in symbols equations that can be applied to the real world. It is not what you are describing. And if you insist on doing so well I must tell you you are in denial.

Bacchanalian
Bacchanalian
  • Member since: Mar. 4, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 20th, 2010 @ 06:52 PM Reply

At 12/20/10 06:46 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: Maths is not creative use of symbols. It's scientific, it is rigid. You cannot argue mathematic results. Mathematics are a way to put in symbols equations that can be applied to the real world. It is not what you are describing. And if you insist on doing so well I must tell you you are in denial.

Creativity is not limited to aesthetic or subjective valuation.

Scientific and mathematical 'results' can be argued, and meaningfully so by virtue of their being 'rigid.'


BBS Signature
VenomKing666
VenomKing666
  • Member since: May. 12, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 22nd, 2010 @ 01:32 AM Reply

At 12/20/10 06:52 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: Creativity is not limited to aesthetic or subjective valuation.

Not how you mean it.

Scientific and mathematical 'results' can be argued, and meaningfully so by virtue of their being 'rigid.'

No they CANT! You cannot argue with the scientific method. If something is scientifically proven, giving the experience has been done without bias and accurately then it is facts.

Mathematics are pure logic. Therefore you cannot argue the fact 1 + 1 = 2.

Bacchanalian
Bacchanalian
  • Member since: Mar. 4, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 22nd, 2010 @ 02:36 AM Reply

At 12/22/10 01:32 AM, VenomKing666 wrote: Not how you mean it.

Umm... culture is not limited to aesthetic or subjective valuation either. So exactly how do I mean it?

No they CANT! You cannot argue with the scientific method. If something is scientifically proven, giving the experience has been done without bias and accurately then it is facts.

Mathematics are pure logic. Therefore you cannot argue the fact 1 + 1 = 2.

Premise one: anything can be argued, regardless of how fruitful it may be.

Premise two: an argument is meaningful or successful according to the proximity of its conclusion to essential objective truths.

The term "falsifiable" is immensely important to objective fields of study such as science and math. Dispute in science and math is meaningful because it observes ad hoc relativism as a fallacy, whereas subjectivity is well... subjective.

***

The fact that we have Arabic and Roman numerals - the fact that the concept of zero has a history - renders it pretty damn evident that mathematics is cultural.


BBS Signature
Ravariel
Ravariel
  • Member since: Apr. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 12
Musician
Response to Pro Life Vs Pro Choice Dec. 22nd, 2010 @ 09:36 AM Reply

At 12/22/10 02:36 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: The fact that we have Arabic and Roman numerals - the fact that the concept of zero has a history - renders it pretty damn evident that mathematics is cultural.

Including the fact that all of our math is based on the Base 10 system we use. The mechanics of everything we use mathematically would be different if we used the binary, or "sum of powers of two" systems like the ancient Chinese or Egyptians. The debate over the equality of 0.9999... and 1, and the mathematical proof thereof, the idea of irrational numbers, i, or the square root of negative 1, and other imaginary numbers, number lines at right angles to each other.

All of math is concept. All of concept is necessarily cultural.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.