There is not such thing as fate. God gave mankind free-will, and allows us to make our own decisions and create our own life.
The only certain things in life are death and taxes.
A merry heart does good like a medicine; but a broken spirit dries the bones. Proverbs 17:22
"It's not gay because we're bros." - Gobblemeister
At 10/20/10 12:06 PM, Chronamut wrote:
those who fight fate, only seek to amuse it.
Since no one can know their fate ( or even prove they have one ) then no one can fight fate.
It's the logical equivalent of "Those who fight Zorlax the purple cosmic ape only seek to amuse him".
'Fate' is my middle name.
If you all enjoyed "choosing" to post your thoughts in this thread, then.....
You're welcome.
Those who fight Kid only seek to amuse him.
At 10/20/10 03:14 PM, Chronamut wrote: And then there is the alternate theory that if you truly don't contribute anythnig of value - then you are still a blank slate - and thus can be re-used - or reincarnated, until you DO become a coloured canvas that can be worthy of note.
So what you're basically saying is, you either get 1 life to do everthing you ever wanted and enjoy yourself to the maximum in any and all ways you can concieve, or you do nothing of any noteable interest and gain eternal life, in a sense, but for all those lives you must be uninteresting and boring as anything?
Bit bleak.
Oh and by the way, if no matter what you do you're playing "into fate's hands" then that just proves THERE IS NO FATE.
If Fate is for humans to conquer other planets and I kill all the humans, then you can't say "hah you were playing into fate's hands all along you fool!". No, I just fucked it right up.
And if you want to say that whatever I do, that's what I was supposed to do according to fate, then how can I even "fight" fate and how do I even have a fate anyway? Since even if I knew my fate and changed it, that was actually my REAL fate.
That goes against the definition of fate / destiny / predictability. It turns the concept of "fate" into something entirely meaningless that self-gratifying douchebags use to pretend like they have a high standing in the cosmos and the universe gives a fuck that they became a dentist or had a kid who rocks at piano.
It's so egotistical to pretend like your good fortune is the result of your god-given fate while other people around the world just eat a bucket of shit every day and die from Malaria before they're old enough to stop suckling at their mother's teat. Great fate for them, thanks universe. Oh but I'm sure they'll get taken care of in the afterlife, that second made-up thing you need to invent to explain the first made-up thing.
You know, like Bigfoot's invisibility belt or the Loch Ness monster's mind erasing ray.
At 10/20/10 03:23 PM, Kid wrote: 'Fate' is my middle name.
If you all enjoyed "choosing" to post your thoughts in this thread, then.....
You're welcome.
lol go back to ir- I mean your hidey hole Kid :P
and Mich you're thinknig bang on now. God does judge you based on the individual decicsions you make - it doesnt matter what specific ones they are - it's all a matter of "did you do the right thing for the given situation".
I kind of imagine it like god creating a bunch of beasts - and then about 6,000 years ago saying "ok all this nomad shit is pissing me off - it's time for you to evolve to start being "actual" beings and not just animals.
Which would roughly coincide with the adam and eve story- tying evolution and bibilical truths together. With them eating the apple and becoming aware coinciding with his desire for man to finally evolve to a point where they gave up their nomadic style and started to farm and live in cities - which is roughly around the asme tiem - 5000 to 6000 years ago.
now it's almost like we're a global project - how will we evolve? What new heights will we reach? If god created us in his image, and he loves to create and provide life so much - then we as little pieces of him - will desire to do so as well. This is why I am not agaisnt playing god - I believe at that point we no longer need to be coddled by god and can shape our own destinies, and even the future of our species.
and yes mich I got your hitchhiker's guide to the universe reference :P
RoseSOAS: you should know i dont think this far ahead
Me made simple: well you already thought as far as holding a chicken while in your underwear
At 10/20/10 03:28 PM, poxpower wrote: Oh and by the way, if no matter what you do you're playing "into fate's hands" then that just proves THERE IS NO FATE.
not exactly- you are playing the egotist here and thinking that fate gives a shit who you are - it doesn't.
If Fate is for humans to conquer other planets and I kill all the humans, then you can't say "hah you were playing into fate's hands all along you fool!". No, I just fucked it right up.
you could try to kill all the humans - there are overwhelming odds, fators, calculations, karma, that will all hinder your efforts.
I mean look at hitler- he killed a ton, sure, but he didn't succeedi n his plans. It boils down to a battle of wants - you may want everyone to die - but everyone elses desire to live will outweigh yours.
think of fate as an experiment as to the nature of mankind - with the argument being how long will they continue to exist before they kill themselves? With god and fate sitting on a couth in front of am onitor with a big bag of popcorn monitoring the progress over thousands and thousands of years.
And if you want to say that whatever I do, that's what I was supposed to do according to fate, then how can I even "fight" fate and how do I even have a fate anyway? Since even if I knew my fate and changed it, that was actually my REAL fate.
thats because you as an individual don't have a specific fate. Your fate is to exist - if you want to battle fate - the only way to dispute it is to kill yourself- and then you really haven't gained anythnig have you - so in that sense- you can never win against fate - not from an existential perspective.
That goes against the definition of fate / destiny / predictability. It turns the concept of "fate" into something entirely meaningless that self-gratifying douchebags use to pretend like they have a high standing in the cosmos and the universe gives a fuck that they became a dentist or had a kid who rocks at piano.
no mankind simply likes to believe that they have a purpose that is above everyone elses - and THAT is the type of meningless attitude that self-gratifying douchebags use to pretend that they have a high standing in the cosmos and theuniverse gives a fuck that they became a dentist or had a kid who rocks at piano. My interprf puts the collective as the importance. Also unless you are a rock as long as you exist you believe yourself to be important - nature weeds out those that think otherwise by letting them destroy themselves.
It's so egotistical to pretend like your good fortune is the result of your god-given fate while other people around the world just eat a bucket of shit every day and die from Malaria before they're old enough to stop suckling at their mother's teat. Great fate for them, thanks universe. Oh but I'm sure they'll get taken care of in the afterlife, that second made-up thing you need to invent to explain the first made-up thing.
completely not. That is not the intent of fate - like i said before - fate does not care whether you are rich or poor - in fact it's MORE impressive to fate if you are born with literally nothing and rise to grand heights and make leaps and bounds in evolution. Everyone has the POTENTIAL to be great. For those that have everythnig - it is their challenge to know how to share their blessigns with others - or heklp others using all that they acquire - all the knowledge and resources they have. Sure peoplel ike celebrities go to africa and help out mostly to stoke their egos - but this behavious still makes them help.
also people have been existing in those conditions for years - we simply compare their happiness to ours - but theirs may be more spiritual - their bleak outlook on life may make them appreciate the simpler things in life- while we are bored of the latest technology as soon as it comes out - in a way their lives are vibrant in turmoil while ours are bleak in excess.
You know, like Bigfoot's invisibility belt or the Loch Ness monster's mind erasing ray.
smartass :P
At 10/20/10 03:31 PM, Chronamut wrote:
and Mich you're thinknig bang on now. God does judge you based on the individual decicsions you make
God must have a fun time doing that.
So was it ok for me to be a slave-owner 2000 years ago? I mean, it was socially acceptable back then and legal.
How about today? What if I'm nice to my slave today? Is he going to let both of us in heaven? Or maybe I should have known better?
Ok well if I should have known better, then that implies that knowing right and wrong is the important part. So what if I have brain damage? What if I'm Hannibal Lecter and I eat people's brains because I'm just crazy and I can't help myself?
What if Hitler had a chemical imbalance in his brain? Is he going to heaven ( or whatever ) because God "understands" ?
Then how do I piss him off, really? Is it only when I do something I KNOW is wrong?
Well in that case, if I think what I'm doing is right because all my friends do it, I'm ok? Like, if I think it's ok to lend money at usury rates and bankrupt poor people, that's fine? Or maybe I think black people are more like monkeys than humans and so I can be a racist jackass.
I mean, can you blame me? I thought they were apes! Can't blame me for my ignorance, can you?
Anyway God must really have quite the amazing system to judge people's actions!
Not to mention, how does that accounting work? Does he give each action a point value? What if I drive drunk and kill an infant but I also invent the cure for AIDs?
What now?
Also that means he spies on us all the time?
I don't know about you but that sounds WRONG, no? Does that mean he's going to send himself to hell? Or that he's decided that HE gets to spy on people's private lives because he's so very awesome?
But I can't do that? What if I think I'm better than everyone else? Can I put cameras in their house and watch them jerk off and then send them anonymous letters with little judgments on them even though they never asked for them?
"Hey dude I think you shouldn't watch so much granny porn, seriously. Also volunteer at your local soup kitchen".
Which would roughly coincide with the adam and eve story- tying evolution and bibilical truths together. With them eating the apple and becoming aware coinciding with his desire for man to finally evolve to a point where they gave up their nomadic style
That happened like 10 000 years ago and has cropped up in many places independently.
Some tribes became civilizations at different points. For instance, the people who crossed into the Americas were nomads for millenia before finally settling down and they never came into contact with the other civilizations that grew in africa, europe and asia.
Why is God so stupid? That means he waited until people split up and then at different times decided for different groups to "stop being damn nomads"? But he still let a bunch of other groups be nomads for centuries if not millenia while others were creating kickass civilizations?
I mean, it's gotta suck to be the Tuareg people who basically were desert nomads and are to this day. Fuck them, God doesn't think they're ready to "evolve".
now it's almost like we're a global project - how will we evolve? What new heights will we reach?
We'll probably replace ourselves with machines, thus pissing God off immensely.
"Humans" won't exist anymore, it'll be something else.
If god created us in his image, and he loves to create and provide life so much -
He likes to create life? Really? Shit do you know what the infant death mortality rate used to be before medicine, let alone what it is in animals?
A trout can fart out a million eggs and only a handful will make it to a large enough size that you'd consider finally putting it out of its misery by cooking the shit out of it.
Worse, the cosmos seems almost entirely devoid of life at least in our vicinity and that's millions of times the size of the earth.
It's like saying a guy who puts a grain of salt on his roasted elephant likes salty meals.
HOLY FUCK I AM MEAN.
MEAN AND AWESOME.
Well you're an idiot, but because fate =/= destiny.
And being controlled throughout life would be destiny.
Fate is whatever happens happens, and there is no plan. Just a big chaotic connexion, called 'Life.'
At 10/20/10 03:42 PM, Chronamut wrote: in fact it's MORE impressive to fate if you are born with literally nothing and rise to grand heights and make leaps and bounds in evolution.
How can Fate be impressed by something someone does, if it was their fate to do so?
Check and mate, sir.
Those who fight Kid only seek to amuse him.
At 10/20/10 03:52 PM, Kid wrote:At 10/20/10 03:42 PM, Chronamut wrote: in fact it's MORE impressive to fate if you are born with literally nothing and rise to grand heights and make leaps and bounds in evolution.How can Fate be impressed by something someone does, if it was their fate to do so?
Check and mate, sir.
not at all kid - I am not that easily beaten :P
you keep thinking that fate lays out a contrete path for you and that you MUST fulfill that specific path.
no.. fate only goal is that you provide something meainingful to life - like chapters of a book. If nobody did anythnig it would be a rather boring book - but the more intrigue - the more controversy, the more LIFE you add - the more interesting the book becomes.
fate does not move you like a puppet - fate states that EVENTUALLY you will contribute to the fabric of life - in my theory - no matter how many times you have to be put back on this earth.
also to the man with the idiot comment - you are right- fate isn't destiny - destiny states that you will be somethnig specific - fate states that you will contribute to somethnig irrefutable. What people seem to misinterpret is that fate has a negative aspact to their own creativity and free will - thinknig that if they choose to do something else- they are going against fate - in my thinking - this is incorrect - and egotistical of the user to think that fate cares so specifically about them.
At 10/20/10 03:42 PM, Chronamut wrote:
you could try to kill all the humans - there are overwhelming odds, fators, calculations, karma, that will all hinder your efforts.
That's not the point, the point is that if fate is for humans to prosper and I kill all humans then I fucked up fate now didn't I?
So I COULD fight fate.
think of fate as an experiment as to the nature of mankind - with the argument being how long will they continue to exist before they kill themselves? With god and fate sitting on a couth in front of am onitor with a big bag of popcorn monitoring the progress over thousands and thousands of years.
So fate is a person now?
What's the experiment and how do you know that's what the experiment is?
Your fate is to exist - if you want to battle fate - the only way to dispute it is to kill yourself- and then you really haven't gained anythnig have you - so in that sense- you can never win against fate - not from an existential perspective.
If I find out what fate's "plan" is, I can disrupt it.
If I can't disrupt it at all, then the concept of "fate" is pretty meaningless as it has no effect on reality.
Like unicorns.
SPACE UNICORNS.
FROM SPACE.
My interprf puts the collective as the importance.
Ok so if I kill everyone, do I win against fate?
Cause if I don't win wether I kill everyone or I kill no one, again, what's even the point of saying there is a fate when every possible outcome leads to validating it?
That's like "ok I'm awesome and here's the test to prove it: I will flip a coin and no matter what happens, I'm awesome".
Huh... ok congrats!
completely not. That is not the intent of fate - like i said before - fate does not care whether you are rich or poor - in fact it's MORE impressive to fate if you are born with literally nothing and rise to grand heights and make leaps and bounds in evolution.
So it DOES care if I'm rich or poor.
Everyone has the POTENTIAL to be great.
Do you know about things like.. you know.. infant mortality and whatnot?
Anyway, so the point of humans is to help out?
Well sad news for you,that's what Hitler was trying to do. That's what happens when crazy people try to help out sometimes. History is a laundry list of conquerors and dictators who were trying to "help out".
Why does fate give a shit anyway?
So what if I help out? What then? I've made people happy? So what? Does that make fate happy?
Why? Doesn't he/she have anything better to do than be a patronizing douche? "Oh look, the stupid little monkeys have figured out how to set up a charity! Aw!".
but theirs may be more spiritual -
Well then problem solved, if everyone is equally happy no matter what their situation in life is, why would I bother improving anyone else's?
And in fact that is a real point of contention in that people like zen Buddhist monks ARE happier in general even though they don't do a damn thing all day long and if the world was all zen monks the human race would die out within a few generations.
They're content to sit there and have NOTHING and do NOTHING and just to be satisfied with that.
In fact they might laugh at YOU and your frivolous pursuit of your own happiness by stressing yourself out and spending all your time and resources helping others when you could be far happier just donating all your money and sitting on your ass all day long.
At 10/20/10 04:26 PM, mamatequila wrote: So where can i buy one of the loch ness monster's mind-erasing rays? My fate is to posess one.
Oh you can get that from alien ships.
It's pretty easy to get a hold of aliens, just get pregnant, drink and smoke a lot, raise your kid in the south, beat him, make sure he resents you and his life and ends up a drunk loser in a dead-end job and then it's only a matter of time before an advanced civilization from another galaxy selects this fine specimen of human perfection for further study and beams him aboard their ship.
Then just have him ask for Raymond, he'll hook him up.
At 10/20/10 03:58 PM, Chronamut wrote: not at all kid - I am not that easily beaten :P
Yes you are. You're just too stubborn to admit it.
you keep thinking that fate lays out a contrete path for you and that you MUST fulfill that specific path.
That's what you apparently thought just 4 hours ago when you said: "think about it - think of some big entity out there - slowly prodding everyone in specific directinos- making them interact with specific people through specific actions, and thus shaping them into specific people."
If Fate is pushing people in specific directions, causing specific actions, and making them interact with specific people, that sounds like a concrete path to me. You even mentioned how this entity you call "Fate" could possibly use its abilities to control the outcome of a coin flip. If coin flips aren't even up to chance anymore, then there must be a concrete path that is decided by this entity.
Then an hour and a half ago you said: "thats becasue it's been put in your head to believe that. What fun is 'destiny" or "fate" if everyone just accepts it as fact? No.. they want to see you struggle, to attempt to be unique and break the mold- only to still end up at the same destination you would have regardless."
So what you were saying there was that anyone who fought "Fate" would end up at the same conclusion even if they struggled and tried to be unique. If "Fate" already knows the destination, and you will end up at it regardless of what you do, how is that not a concrete path? And I go back to my statement, how can this entity "Fate" be impressed at something anyone does if the result is exactly what "Fate" had planned?
It is impressive for someone to become great when they come from having nothing in the eyes normal people. People that don't know what that person will become. But if you know what they will become, and even make it happen, how can that be impressive to you?
no.. fate only goal is that you provide something meainingful to life - like chapters of a book. If nobody did anythnig it would be a rather boring book - but the more intrigue - the more controversy, the more LIFE you add - the more interesting the book becomes.
And who are you to say what is meaningful?
"It's a beautiful thing if you really think about that - if people are fated to a collective greater evolution- then why fight it? Why throw your potential away through, say suicide? Life is a gift!"
Statements like this, in the context of your "theory" make no sense. What if someone's suicide leads to meaningful changes in the "collective greater evolution?" What if someone's suicide brings attention to a certain disease or genetic mutation that would have otherwise gone unnoticed?
Why can't a single person's suicide be a part of the "collective greater evolution" you keep speaking of? That's why it's hard to believe your views on fate, because you don't even understand them.
fate does not move you like a puppet - fate states that EVENTUALLY you will contribute to the fabric of life - in my theory - no matter how many times you have to be put back on this earth.
Everyone contributes to the fabric of life, so I don't see how that fits into your "reincarnation" theory. Just because they aren't doing noticeable things doesn't mean their actions aren't important in some way.
Maybe "Fate" is causing someone to sit in their house and play video games all day, only interacting with the world enough to survive, but not making any social interactions or great strides in any field so they can remain in that house, because there's some kind of dangerous condition on that property that will result in the death of the inhabitants. And if that person wasn't there, someone that may be a key person in the discovery of the cure for cancer, or a great leader that brings nations together, or some other "worthwhile" contribution in your eyes.
Your theory seems to change with every post you make.
You say things like "fate is that you provide something meaningful to life" but you only think certain things are considered 'meaningful.' Pretty much everyone provides something meaningful, no matter how small, yet you believe in some kind of reincarnation until someone provides something 'meaningful enough."
Then you say things like "fate pushes you in this direction" but then a little while later you say "fate doesn't directly effect your life."
And that "why would you kill yourself, life is great" but it isn't, not for everyone. That goes against your theory of "the greater good" and brings it back to a more personal level. Living in a shithole alone doing shit work for shit pay while the world shits on you is not "a good life." And as far as you know, their suicide may lead to great things. Great things that effect the human race in a positive way, a much more meaningful way than they were contributing to it through the actions in their life.
Death is as important as life to the greater good of the human race and/or the world/universe.
Those who fight Kid only seek to amuse him.
At 10/20/10 04:06 PM, poxpower wrote:
That's not the point, the point is that if fate is for humans to prosper and I kill all humans then I fucked up fate now didn't I?
So I COULD fight fate.
not at all - killing all humans is a lofty endeavour. however froman evolutionary standpoint you'd still fail, unless you somehow learn to asexually reproduce. The concept of fate can only exist, as long as there is someone there to exist in it. Kind of like the pagan gods- who were only powerful as long as they had followers - as soon as their followers died "they" died.
So fate is a person now?
What's the experiment and how do you know that's what the experiment is?
who knows?? Think of it this way - no human on earth has ever found a way to create life - out of nothing. All manipulation of life has been made by altering existing cells - don't you find that odd? I mean it's just a combination of proteins and minerals and whatnot, why can't we make it.. tick? Perhaps some being out there specifically makes US alive.
If I find out what fate's "plan" is, I can disrupt it.
fates plan is continued evolution. That's why you have no control over how you are programmed when you are born. Mankind DOES however have the potential to destroy evolution - however their deep rooted ego/latent god complexes makes the majority of them strive to godlike heights, so it's sort of like humanity's internally programmed qualities makes it naturally strive to become better.
And if parts of humanity die, through disease or crappy conditions - then by fate's standards - they a) were genetically inferior or b) they shouldn't have lived there to begin with - honestly - you livei n an area - like the desert lets say- with no nutritional value where it's blistering hot, and you can't properly grow crops - and you're actually ANGRY that you live a shitty existance? Come on.
If I can't disrupt it at all, then the concept of "fate" is pretty meaningless as it has no effect on reality.
you can't disrupt time - yet it exists - are you saying time does not exist? The fact that you die of old age is a testiment that it does. You seem to be awfully obsessed with the fat the fact that you have to be able to control everything in the universe, which is humourous for someone who acts pretty nonchalant irl.
and to humour you I suppose that if you truly killed everyone then yes you would defy fate.. unless of course fate determined everyone to be of no more use and wanted you to kill them all :P
Like unicorns.
SPACE UNICORNS.
FROM SPACE.
yes. Space unicorns from space are awesome. Robotic space unicorn attack.
Ok so if I kill everyone, do I win against fate?
yes. Good luck with that ordeal. Also be sure to savour it in the last moment until you die all alone.
Cause if I don't win wether I kill everyone or I kill no one, again, what's even the point of saying there is a fate when every possible outcome leads to validating it?
fine - you can fight fate if you kill every single person on the face of the planet - happy?
That's like "ok I'm awesome and here's the test to prove it: I will flip a coin and no matter what happens, I'm awesome".
not really lol
Huh... ok congrats!
completely not. That is not the intent of fate - like i said before - fate does not care whether you are rich or poor - in fact it's MORE impressive to fate if you are born with literally nothing and rise to grand heights and make leaps and bounds in evolution.So it DOES care if I'm rich or poor.
naw - only your role in life changes- both can be equally as challenging to actually do what is right. It's all in how you apply yourself.
Do you know about things like.. you know.. infant mortality and whatnot?
of course -and that's why I said those that contribute nothing get recycled - an infant might be reborn again and again and again until finally they are born into a situation where they can survive. Fate isall about survival of the fittest. If you can kill a person - then technically you are the superior one. And thus if you killed everyone - then you are actually superior to everyone else - and can win life by saying you are the pinnacle of evolution - before dying out and wiping humanity out entirely.
Anyway, so the point of humans is to help out?
think of every human like a cell in one giant body - if a few die - so what? Others will take its place - but collectively - those cells can turn that "body" into somethnig amazing. For example - a film is made by hundreds of people all working together - they show their creativity and it helps to expand our thoughts and entertain us. Yet we appreciate it for the whole, and not specifically one role of those that worked on the movie - fate is kind of the same way - focusing on the collective result of what billions of users can create on a planet.
Well sad news for you,that's what Hitler was trying to do. That's what happens when crazy people try to help out sometimes. History is a laundry list of conquerors and dictators who were trying to "help out".
hitler failed. Every dictator failed. Thus while they had high ambitions - they didn't succeed in their ultimate goal - and if they had - they would have earned their right to be superior over everyone else - but - and we are theorizing here - if god does exist- they know that their victory is short lived regardless. Hunamity's goal isn't to help out - it's to survive as a species- make wondrous things - acheive amazing feats, and evolve to ever greater beings.
Why does fate give a shit anyway?
perhaps fate is easily amused.
So what if I help out? What then? I've made people happy? So what? Does that make fate happy?
No it makes GOD happy. Fate doesn't care. Fate simply wants to see what you've got - what you're capable of - thus hitler and all them - fulfileld fate - because they drastically changhed things through their attempts to conquir the world, and to eradicate those they felt were unfit - if they were the ultimate in evolution - they would have succee
And once again we are theorizing here - don't forget this entire thing - is a philosophical debate - noone has a right to put down anyone elses argument with a concrete statement that their view is right - then and only then can one be labelled a douchebag.
Why? Doesn't he/she have anything better to do than be a patronizing douche? "Oh look, the stupid little monkeys have figured out how to set up a charity! Aw!".
its quite possible a being of such magnitude is probably bored and we are it's entertainment - kind of like that southpark episode.
but theirs may be more spiritual -Well then problem solved, if everyone is equally happy no matter what their situation in life is, why would I bother improving anyone else's?
because for some reason we feel we need to stick our nose in everything. Also because half of the tiem we are actualyl responsible for making their lives WORSE. And in THAT case then yes we should feel guilty and help. As we feel we will be judged if we don't, if we caused it originally. Of course fate doesn't care- if they die they die. fate cares that the collective organism survives and thrives - and if that means cutting off some dead bits - then so be it.
And in fact that is a real point of contention in that people like zen Buddhist monks ARE happier in general even though they don't do a damn thing all day long and if the world was all zen monks the human race would die out within a few generations. They're content to sit there and have NOTHING and do NOTHING and just to be satisfied with that.
In fact they might laugh at YOU and your frivolous pursuit of your own happiness by stressing yourself out and spending all your time and resources helping others when you could be far happier just donating all your money and sitting on your ass all day
they may - but if they're all doing nothing - who cares if they do? :P The only reason they are happy is because they are avoiding life. They are avoiding all the negative aspects of life - which doesn't allow you to grow.
At 10/20/10 04:42 PM, Kid wrote:At 10/20/10 03:58 PM, Chronamut wrote: not at all kid - I am not that easily beaten :PYes you are. You're just too stubborn to admit it.
welcome to debates.
you keep thinking that fate lays out a contrete path for you and that you MUST fulfill that specific path.That's what you apparently thought just 4 hours ago when you said: "think about it - think of some big entity out there - slowly prodding everyone in specific directinos- making them interact with specific people through specific actions, and thus shaping them into specific people."
you're right kid - and that's why I made reincarnation an optional theory - for those special cases where someoone literally is uknown by all and dies unnoticed, and unmourned. Fate pushes us in certain directions - yes, it causes us to think, to become more and more intelligent - however I feel it is our understanding of fate itself that is flawed.. in the end - in the end - no matter how hard we try to
If Fate is pushing people in specific directions, causing specific actions, and making them interact with specific people, that sounds like a concrete path to me. You even mentioned how this entity you call "Fate" could possibly use its abilities to control the outcome of a coin flip. If coin flips aren't even up to chance anymore, then there must be a concrete path that is decided by this entity.
I said possibly- a debate is entirely arguable on any of the points - and I am glad you are doing so.
As more people provide more opinions things can evolve until a theory becomes more fine tuned- which I feel this entire discussion has. As a result my views have evolved in themselves - I still believe that fate- through evolution itself in the way we are preconditioned in our lives - has an overall way of controlling us - not from a conscious perspective - but from the standpoint that because things are programmed into us- we WILl make specific choices- because to not make those specific choices is against our nature, and we don't tend to do things that are agaisnt our nature.
for example - your friend is about to fall off a cliff - you reach for him - you don't think about why you did it - but your preconditioning makes you do it without hesitation. Mind you there are those that are demented and wouldn't but in their minds that person is probably no longer a friend.
Then an hour and a half ago you said: "thats becasue it's been put in your head to believe that. What fun is 'destiny" or "fate" if everyone just accepts it as fact? No.. they want to see you struggle, to attempt to be unique and break the mold- only to still end up at the same destination you would have regardless."
So what you were saying there was that anyone who fought "Fate" would end up at the same conclusion even if they struggled and tried to be unique. If "Fate" already knows the destination, and you will end up at it regardless of what you do, how is that not a concrete path? And I go back to my statement, how can this entity "Fate" be impressed at something anyone does if the result is exactly what "Fate" had planned?
fate knows how you will end up because through every situation and interaction around you - it has globally already made you so. In the end it boils down to a spirit of will. However some people are just so beaten down with nothnig to believe in that .. quite simply,, they die. Fate knows this - however fate also knows that if someoen were to tell this man that fate wants them to die, they may try harder and live - however we have no way of knowing if fate truly wants them to die- or if fate simply wants to see them TRY.
fate plans nothing. Fate has a goal - our natures simply make us carry it out because there are certain thnigs in life you cannot control, like hatred, love etc. so certain events bouncing off of certain people will lead eventaulyl to certain events. Simply because we predictably react to them in ways that are logical. Sure there are blips and deviances here and there - but ultimately - it all works out.
It is impressive for someone to become great when they come from having nothing in the eyes normal people. People that don't know what that person will become. But if you know what they will become, and even make it happen, how can that be impressive to you?
you could say fate is impressed by strong evolutionary specimens. Sure you may follow specific processes according to fate - but by the way your surroundings have conditioned you - and your own evolutionary spirit - you may prove to be truly wonderous in what you are capable of.
no.. fate only goal is that you provide something meainingful to life - like chapters of a book. If nobody did anythnig it would be a rather boring book - but the more intrigue - the more controversy, the more LIFE you add - the more interesting the book becomes.And who are you to say what is meaningful?
i am man. Man has always determined what is meaningful - for good and for ill.
"It's a beautiful thing if you really think about that - if people are fated to a collective greater evolution- then why fight it? Why throw your potential away through, say suicide? Life is a gift!"
Statements like this, in the context of your "theory" make no sense. What if someone's suicide leads to meaningful changes in the "collective greater evolution?" What if someone's suicide brings attention to a certain disease or genetic mutation that would have otherwise gone unnoticed?
you are right - and thus the debate shifts.
Why can't a single person's suicide be a part of the "collective greater evolution" you keep speaking of? That's why it's hard to believe your views on fate, because you don't even understand them.
you are right again - also it's a debate - opne runs it straight form their mind - there are bound to be inconsistancies - the goal is to come up with a fine tuned result that both can agree on.
fate does not move you like a puppet - fate states that EVENTUALLY you will contribute to the fabric of life - in my theory - no matter how many times you have to be put back on this earth.Everyone contributes to the fabric of life, so I don't see how that fits into your "reincarnation" theory. Just because they aren't doing noticeable things doesn't mean their actions aren't important in some way.
once again right- we shall discard the reincarnation theory. My goal here is not to say "i am right and you are wrong" - my goal here is "this is what I believe "this is your counterargument" by passing ideas back and forth we can come to a mutual understanding about life in general. People get too angry in these sorts of things because they have a concrete view on how they think life is - and it upsets them when someone shows a possibly different viewpoint. Feel free to add your own theories - and we can work together to come up with an average truth that everyone can agree on.
Maybe "Fate" is causing someone to sit in their house and play video games all day, only interacting with the world enough to survive, but not making any social interactions or great strides in any field so they can remain in that house, because there's some kind of dangerous condition on that property that will result in the death of the inhabitants. And if that person wasn't there, someone that may be a key person in the discovery of the cure for cancer, or a great leader that brings nations together, or some other "worthwhile" contribution in your eyes.
see - you're ocntributing! That's a very good reasoning!
Your theory seems to change with every post you make.
no it evolves - eventualyl it all will come together - thats how philosophizing works. Nothnig comes out as a profound truth right off the bat.. well.. not usually.
You say things like "fate is that you provide something meaningful to life" but you only think certain things are considered 'meaningful.' Pretty much everyone provides something meaningful, no matter how small, yet you believe in some kind of reincarnation until someone provides something 'meaningful enough."
yup - you debunked that part - I wasn't sure if I should provide it which is why I made it a separate theory.
Then you say things like "fate pushes you in this direction" but then a little while later you say "fate doesn't directly effect your life."
fate funnily enough does both. You still control your life - however, you will make decisions that are typical of you. There is no escaping that - that in your own way is your own individuality- fate is simply aware of it - that's all.
And that "why would you kill yourself, life is great" but it isn't, not for everyone. That goes against your theory of "the greater good" and brings it back to a more personal level. Living in a shithole alone doing shit work for shit pay while the world shits on you is not "a good life." And as far as you know, their suicide may lead to great things. Great things that effect the human race in a positive way, a much more meaningful way than they were contributing to it through the actions in their life.
Death is as important as life to the greater good of the human race and/or the world/universe.
you are ocmpletely right- we have thus now incorporated your views into the greater philosophical debate.
see this is fun!
Pretend not to care about anything, but be bothered by everything.
You may be fast on the roads but it's no use on the track.
ScaryPicnic made me do it.My letterboxd.
half the peopel in this thread have bot read a single word and have simply posted their view on the subject right off the bat.
Wow thats some deep shit you should start a blog or something it would be very popular.
Monster Count: 2999 - Countdown to 3000
DO ANY OF YOU BOYS LIVE IN VIRGINIA?!
it is both my fate, and my destiny to prove Chronamut wrong. as such, it has already happened regardless of your awareness of it. i have won, and any attempt to prove me wrong is merely pissing on fates easy feet.
dont take it to heart tho, it aint easy being me.
At 10/20/10 04:44 PM, Chronamut wrote: fates plan is continued evolution. That's why you have no control over how you are programmed when you are born. Mankind DOES however have the potential to destroy evolution
So mankind has the potential to fight fate? I thought that just amused fate..
Fate isall about survival of the fittest.
And we have destroyed the idea of "survival of the fittest" through medicine and other technological advancements. The concept of "Survival of the Fittest" was an example of how favorable traits live on in future generations. The organisms with the most favorable traits would be able to adapt best to the environment, find food, survive, and reproduce. We use medical technology to keep humans with weak traits alive because of our compassion for other humans. They are "allowed" to live because of this technology and are able to breed, passing their weaker genes on to future generations, weakening our collective gene pool.
Other technology, non medical, allows genetically weaker people to survive longer than genetically stronger people as well. Best example: Weapons. A tall, perfectly healthy man with no genetic defects and full of favorable genetic features can be shot dead by a sickly, genetically inferior weakling who may then go on and reproduce.
Survival of the Fittest no longer applies to Humans, and it wouldn't apply to any advanced species that has access to technology.
So if fate is about survival of the fittest, I guess we've fought fate again.
Those who fight Kid only seek to amuse him.
Life is a performance, and the world is full of critics. Give it your all like it's your last show.
You don't even want to know
naw it's now simply become "survival of the smartest"
neways if you wanan continue it kid come to irc :P
At 10/20/10 04:44 PM, Chronamut wrote:
The concept of fate can only exist, as long as there is someone there to exist in it.
That's no concept of faith I've ever heard of.
You pretty much just made that definition up man : O
Think of it this way - no human on earth has ever found a way to create life - out of nothing.
Well life was never created from nothing anywhere by anything or anyone : O
I mean it's just a combination of proteins and minerals and whatnot, why can't we make it.. tick?
Because it's insanely complicated and works on a nano scale our technology can't reach yet?
fates plan is continued evolution.
Ok so if I kill everyone, then I win?
I beat fate?
So why are you saying I can't fight fate?
you can't disrupt time
Well technically you can.
And we can see the effects of time.
In fact the effects of time are what we call "time".
The effects of fate you describe are what we call "living in our universe".
Why use another extra word? What does your concept describe that current words don't already?
unless of course fate determined everyone to be of no more use and wanted you to kill them all :P
fine - you can fight fate if you kill every single person on the face of the planet - happy?
Ok so.. which is it??
naw - only your role in life changes- both can be equally as challenging to actually do what is right. It's all in how you apply yourself.
Right so it does care if I'm rich or poor.
If I'm rich and I don't use that, then it cares because I was supposed to use my richness.
of course -and that's why I said those that contribute nothing get recycled -
Right, Bigfoot's invisibility belt.
i.e. something even MORE implausible to explain something already implausible.
and can win life by saying you are the pinnacle of evolution -
That's not really how evolution works.
The last dinosaur to die wasn't "the most evolved dinosaur".
No animal or person is "the most evolved".
In fact the only standard you could have to quantify how "evolved" something is would either be the number of generations from that thing to the first life or the number of mutations in its genome compared to the first form of life.
So you have your pick of like sea cucumbers or bacteria as the most evolved things on earth then.
think of every human like a cell in one giant body
that's called a "society" not "fate".
Hunamity's goal isn't to help out - it's to survive as a species- make wondrous things - acheive amazing feats, and evolve to ever greater beings.
Well that's the goal of some people. Probably not even a majority of people.
So what if I help out? What then? I've made people happy? So what? Does that make fate happy?No it makes GOD happy.
Oh shit, Bigfoot's invisibility belt just got a ghost radar upgrade.
Fate doesn't care. Fate simply wants to see what you've got - what you're capable of
Well then you've switched definitions again because you can't go against fate if all it does is sit around watching you impartially.
its quite possible a being of such magnitude is probably bored and we are it's entertainment - kind of like that southpark episode.
That's a pretty human perspective on cosmic beings.
because for some reason we feel we need to stick our nose in everything.
Well they don't.
Also because half of the tiem we are actualyl responsible for making their lives WORSE.
Right just stay out of it, zen-style.
As we feel we will be judged if we don't,
Judged by other people maybe.
fate cares that the collective organism survives and thrives
So do cats have cat Fate too?
Because that would be pretty bad news in general as 99% of all the animal species who lived on earth are now extinct. Sucks to be those animal's fate.
And at what point did fate start caring about humans? At what time did it go "ok that's not a monkey anymore but something worthy of me giving a fuck"?
That's the same problem as the "soul" problem Christians have where they say that animals don't have souls. Well then at what point in our evolution did souls appear and why?
they may - but if they're all doing nothing - who cares if they do? :P They are avoiding life
That's one point of view.
They could say that you're throwing away your happiness because of your pre-conceived notion that you can only truly attain it by growing as a person.
As a result you're miserable most of the time and when you are happy in short bursts you have the delusion that it's SO MUCH BETTER than what those monks could possibly have.
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