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I personally don't have a problem with it being built there, it's just who are they gonna have as the islamic equivalent of a pastor who runs the place i may have a problem with. I don't want to take the chance he'll preach extremist islam.

all of you bitching about "America is a melting pot, first amendment, they have the right to build it, etc etc etc" are fucking retarded. that is not, and never should have been, the point of conflict. obviously they have the fucking right to build it, this is fucking america.

in my opinion, though, this is simply a matter of respect. there has been a massive outcry from offended americans about the center, including a ~70% disapproval rating of it as of when i last checked. at this point, there is absolutely no reason why rauf couldn't just build it somewhere else. regardless of his intentions, regardless of how many fucking mosques there were before 9/11, and regardless of his right to build the center, rauf is doing nothing but disrespecting a large majority of the american people by forcing ahead with the construction.

At 10/4/10 03:00 PM, Shauna wrote: It's sheer stupidity for anyone to do so if they loved their country.

Sometimes, stupidity and patriotism go hand in hand. People will do any to protect their country.

I think the problem is that people think that islamic people are putting up a mosc or watever to mock people, but that doesn't make sense considering that true islamic practitioners are probably the most peaceful/respectful people in the world.

Its a fact that islam is currently the fastest growing religion in the world, and as a result alot of americans have begun practicing Islam as their religion, as is their first amendment right.

It is also their right as Americans to build a church and such, so to put it frankly, Non-Islamic Americans are kind of in a loose loose situation. This is because The true enemy (Al Quaeda) stand against America in everything we do, including our freedom to worship whatever creature or god we want, and to erect our own places of worship (amongst many other things).

It becomes a loose loose situation because if we were to deny these islamic folks the right to build a church ANYWHERE, then we would self defeat our own principles of democracy, and of religious freedom.

If we let them erect it at ground zero, it's like we're saying it's okay to bomb us and then set up shop in the location of the building you just demolished.

I think it's important to remember that the people trying to erect a place of worship at Ground Zero are in no way related to the people who bombed the world trade center, and that they are AMERICANS with RIGHTS.

Where do I stand? They have the right to do it, therefore they must be aloud to do it. I think that they could choose a better location, because of fear of vandilation, controversy, etc.

I don't care that they build it there. FFS, there's a strip bar in the area as well, who gives a crap. They are building it over a old burlington coat factory- not someone's grave. It's two blocks away for christ's sake.

However, the guy that is in charge of the building is a little sketchy. He's currently being sued for using government grants that were supposed to be for restoring his two apartment buildings. His renters are calling him a slum lord, and apparently his buildings are full of code violations. He doesn't appear to be the best businessman.

Cough.

Even though September 11, 2001 was a tragic day, it cannot bypass the constitutional rights of allowing Islamic people to practice their religion and build Park51. Even Barrack Obama stepped in on the argument, supporting this, stating:
"I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable".

It becomes clear that this issue seems to revolve around those still mournful about the act that occurred almost ten years ago, simply wanting revenge towards those that are of the same religion as the supposed terrorists. Its on private property, its a legitimate investment, and it even has a 9/11 memorial in it.

Well if you don't like it you can take your mind off of it at the strip club down the street.

THOSE GODDAMN MUSLIMS ARE THREATENING OUR AMERICAN FREEDOM! WE CANNOT LET THEM WIN! WE CANNOT LET THEM GO THROUGH WITH THIS!

/stereotypical response from most Americans.

looks better like this

Who gives a shit, no one complains about catholic churches or community centers being put places. I know it's a different situation but there are already mosques and Muslim community centers in NY.

Don't forget, the News is a business. Two blocks from ground zero is close enough for them to fabricate a controversy in order to get more views.

At 10/4/10 08:42 PM, lawlmaster wrote: /stereotypical response from most Americans.

And you would know this how?

At 10/4/10 09:43 PM, Spackled wrote:

At 10/4/10 08:42 PM, lawlmaster wrote: /stereotypical response from most Americans.

And you would know this how?

I think one of the "stereotypical" americans mentioned 70% disapproval.

which in this case, a simple equation should do...

70% disapproval = 70% misinformed

At 10/4/10 09:25 PM, DarkMatter wrote: Don't forget, the News is a business. Two blocks from ground zero is close enough for them to fabricate a controversy in order to get more views.

Lol, I normally have negative opinions about the media, but in this case it wasn't them that started this. It was the legitimate thoughts from people who lost loved ones on 9/11. The media, of course, covered it and some (the FOXy one) went further to give us the facts about the the whole controversy and the "moderate" Muslim behind the construction of the Islamic communtiy center. And that's pretty much that. :)

At 10/4/10 09:54 PM, DarkMatter wrote:

At 10/4/10 09:43 PM, Spackled wrote:

At 10/4/10 08:42 PM, lawlmaster wrote: /stereotypical response from most Americans.

And you would know this how?

I think one of the "stereotypical" americans mentioned 70% disapproval.

which in this case, a simple equation should do...

70% disapproval = 70% misinformed

And it shouldn't be that way. Just because 70% disaprove doesn't mean that they are all misinformed.

1. That projected building looks like a white, crusty dog turd.

The design is to abstract compared to the buildings around it. It looks to me like some giant insects would lay eggs there.

2. Islam is to the melting pot what a rock is to soup.

In what ways has it adapted to American customs at all? I'm predicting that any ways mentioned will be mandatory according to law or too cumbersome to leave be.

3. It's my opinion that someone has a right to build a Mosque / Islamic Center / Whatever on that lot, but that's not to say it's highly insensitive to the family members of those lost in the WTC attacks.

Lawful, but unethical so to speak.

4. Why does it have to be built there specifically?

Of all the places where it could be built, I'd assume it's not the cheapest, easiest, or spacious plot to put it. That being said, what benefit does that specific spot hold?

At 10/4/10 09:54 PM, DarkMatter wrote:

At 10/4/10 09:43 PM, Spackled wrote:

At 10/4/10 08:42 PM, lawlmaster wrote: /stereotypical response from most Americans.

And you would know this how?

I think one of the "stereotypical" americans mentioned 70% disapproval.

which in this case, a simple equation should do...

70% disapproval = 70% misinformed

If you go by that logic, then anyone who disapproves of anything you support is merely misinformed of the certain subject matter.

Its not even a proper mosque.Its a community center with like one or two floors reserved for prayer space(not just for Muslims),

At 10/4/10 10:32 PM, SouthAsian wrote: Its not even a proper mosque.Its a community center with like one or two floors reserved for prayer space(not just for Muslims),

And your point?

lulz :P

I don't what to say about the appearance of this building. Quite the eyesore really.

At 10/4/10 09:57 PM, AbstractPathologist wrote:

At 10/4/10 09:25 PM, DarkMatter wrote: Don't forget, the News is a business. Two blocks from ground zero is close enough for them to fabricate a controversy in order to get more views.

Lol, I normally have negative opinions about the media, but in this case it wasn't them that started this. It was the legitimate thoughts from people who lost loved ones on 9/11.

um, that's not entirely true. nobody really had a problem with it (not even anyone on Fox News had any issue with it, as Dr. Laura Ingraham praised the project back in December of 2009, though she seemed to reverse her position by August of 2010, as these two videos demonstrate), until Pamela Geller, a leader of the group Stop Islamization in America, started to yell about it. This article gives an excellent timeline of the origins of the shitstorm that resulted.

At 10/4/10 10:12 PM, Spackled wrote: And it shouldn't be that way. Just because 70% disaprove doesn't mean that they are all misinformed.

that doesn't mean they're correct either, and with the evidence that's out there, it turns out that they are in the wrong.

never underestimate the power of stupidity in large groups.

At 10/4/10 10:25 PM, snyperscope wrote: 1. That projected building looks like a white, crusty dog turd.

The design is to abstract compared to the buildings around it. It looks to me like some giant insects would lay eggs there.

meh

2. Islam is to the melting pot what a rock is to soup.

In what ways has it adapted to American customs at all? I'm predicting that any ways mentioned will be mandatory according to law or too cumbersome to leave be.

the Pew Resarch Center did a survey in 2007 on Muslim Americans and they found that they were largely integrated, happy with their lives, and moderate with respect to many of the issues that have divided Muslims and Westerners around the world.

you can read the summary on Wikipedia, or if you have time, look at their own findings here.

that basically made your pithy saying about how Islam is to the melting pot what a rock is to soup sound staggeringly stupid, especially since this discussion concerns American Muslims.

3. It's my opinion that someone has a right to build a Mosque / Islamic Center / Whatever on that lot, but that's not to say it's highly insensitive to the family members of those lost in the WTC attacks.

Lawful, but unethical so to speak.

the whole sensitivity argument only makes sense if ALL Muslims were responsible for 9/11. turns out, they aren't, the attackers were Wahabbists, one of the most conservative sects of Islam, while the people behind the proposed Islamic center are Sufis, one of the most liberal sects of Islam, and the Wahabbists really don't like the Sufis. shame people can't tell the difference.

4. Why does it have to be built there specifically?

Of all the places where it could be built, I'd assume it's not the cheapest, easiest, or spacious plot to put it. That being said, what benefit does that specific spot hold?

here's what they have to say.

We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years. American Muslims have been peacefully living, working and worshipping in this neighborhood all along and were also terribly affected by the horrific events of 9/11.

We wanted to build a community center in our old neighborhood, and the Park51 location became available. (In our part of lower Manhattan, it's hard not to be close to Ground Zero.) As Muslim New Yorkers and Americans, we want to help and be part of rebuilding our neighborhood. It is important for everyone to show the world that Americans will not be frightened or deterred by the extremist forces of hatred.

wow, that sounds soooo scary!

seriously though, all this screaming about how "ZOMG THOSE SCARY MUSLINS BUILDING THEIR GIANT MIDDLE FINGER TO ALL OF AMERICA, TERRORISTS ARE TAKIN OVER AMERICA!!!" is getting really annoying.

At 10/4/10 10:52 PM, Powerage wrote: seriously though, all this screaming about how "ZOMG THOSE SCARY MUSLINS BUILDING THEIR GIANT MIDDLE FINGER TO ALL OF AMERICA, TERRORISTS ARE TAKIN OVER AMERICA!!!" is getting really annoying.

Haven't really seen or heard anyone do that, but whatever.

Nice long post, btw.

We should be friendly with the good muslims and not treat them like terrorist muslims, but we should also be wary and not allow them to subtly take over the US and spread their religion everywhere.

At 10/4/10 11:09 PM, FurryDemon wrote: We should be friendly with the good muslims and not treat them like terrorist muslims, but we should also be wary and not allow them to subtly take over the US and spread their religion everywhere.

I absolutely agree.

At 10/4/10 05:51 PM, camobch0 wrote: Cough.

It's too bad you say this now because if it was suppose to be in that forum, guess what...mods would have locked this and said so by now.

At 10/4/10 04:46 PM, Knorpfdog wrote: all of you bitching about "America is a melting pot, first amendment, they have the right to build it, etc etc etc" are fucking retarded. that is not, and never should have been, the point of conflict. obviously they have the fucking right to build it, this is fucking america.

in my opinion, though, this is simply a matter of respect. there has been a massive outcry from offended americans about the center, including a ~70% disapproval rating of it as of when i last checked. at this point, there is absolutely no reason why rauf couldn't just build it somewhere else. regardless of his intentions, regardless of how many fucking mosques there were before 9/11, and regardless of his right to build the center, rauf is doing nothing but disrespecting a large majority of the american people by forcing ahead with the construction.

How many people voted in that poll with the 70% rating? 900? Unless the majority of all Americans 18 and over voted, a sample poll doesn't prove anything. You should read the community centre's FAQ. It gives reasons for the construction. It also says there's gonna be a 9/11 memorial and that the centre "will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity or rhetoric."

At 10/5/10 12:32 AM, EclecticEnnui wrote: It also says there's gonna be a 9/11 memorial and that the centre "will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity or rhetoric."

Oh great, I fucked that up. The whole line is, "Neither Park51 nor the Prayer Space will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity or rhetoric."

At 10/5/10 12:32 AM, EclecticEnnui wrote: How many people voted in that poll with the 70% rating? 900? Unless the majority of all Americans 18 and over voted, a sample poll doesn't prove anything. You should read the community centre's FAQ. It gives reasons for the construction. It also says there's gonna be a 9/11 memorial and that the centre "will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity or rhetoric."

the number of people surveyed is fairly meaningless in a
poll that indicates such consistent opposition, across all sorts of political groups that are usually at odds when it comes to issues such as this one.

regarding the FAQ: instead of providing legitimate reasons as to why they MUST build the center at its current site, all it says is that "there will not be any views of ground zero" from the building. a statement like that, intended to do nothing but pacify opposition, indicates that there truly are no legitimate reasons that mandate the center's construction at the current site.

and my main point still stands. regardless of any other variables or justifications, construction of the center at its current location is very disrespectful to a large group of americans. continuing construction in the face of such a public outcry shows that rauf is really just blowing steam out of his ass with all of his justifications and public "outreaches."

as a final comment, some of you really need to drop the self-righteous, "i'm smarter than the average american" attitude. many people are against this construction simply due to numerous examples of possible connections between rauf and the hamas terrorist group, including statements alluding to the fact that the USA deserved 9/11 to happen. rauf has also stated that america "...Has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims.", during a 2005 speech he made in Adelaide.

The man who did the Oklahoma city bombings was Christian.

If you build a church anywhere near that site, you are being extremely disrespectful.