Freedom

[FUNKbrs]

I think we've forgotten what "Freedom" means.

For one, freedom means not spending an hour everyday strapped to a chair in a little metal box.

Freedom means not mowing your lawn just because other people think your grass in an eyesore.

Freedom means bearing arms. Not guns. ARMS. Military grade arms. We're supposed to have the right in the bill of rights to form revolutionary militias. How can we do that without AK47s and C4?

Freedom means calling a spade a spade. Even if it hurts his little feewings because he thought of his own prettier sounding word he wants you to use.

we didn't have a black president until the n-word became as commonly used in our culture as "the"

Freedom means looking at your own little plot of earth, ripping it clean off the bedrock, and selling it for top dollar, trees and fluffy bunnies be goddamned.

Freedom means doing drugs. All of them. If you die, at least your were free. If you don't die and end up in the street, it was your own choice.

-----

When I hear we're trying to "free country X" it makes me want to fucking puke. The whole POINT of freedom is that it's not forced on you. Seatbelt laws are forced on you. Local housing associations are forced on you. Gun control is forced on you. Cultural re-education is forced on you. Environmentalism is forced on you. Controlled substance laws are forced on you.

If this is fucking freedom, who the fuck would die to force it on someone else? Any one with a right mind would rather kill those who would bring this perversion of "liberty" upon them.

[Musician]

Freedom is the most overused, abused term in existance. Nobody wants perfect freedom. Nobody wants to live in a society where you have the 'freedom' to murder somebody. In fact, the whole idea of organized society is to restrict freedom, in order to promote utility.

So you lose your freedom to murder someone but you gain the liberty associated with living in a civil society.

If ultimate freedom means primitivism (which is what you're equating it with), then I'm glad we don't have it.

[Jon-86]

At 9/26/10 08:09 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: I think we've forgotten what "Freedom" means.

For one, freedom means not spending an hour everyday strapped to a chair in a little metal box.

I used to spend 9 hours a day slaving away at my desk. A keyboard slave working on eCommerce sites I didn't really care about just so rich people could buy shit they dont need to make themselves feel special.

Even though I went home to my bed each night and could do anyhing I wanted really. It dosnt half get to you after a few years!

[Camarohusky]

At 9/26/10 08:09 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Local housing associations are forced on you. Gun control is forced on you.

No it's not. It cannot be forced upon you. You either willfully joined it by buying a plot of land you knew was in one, or you elected to amend your title to include the housing association as a governing body.

[FUNKbrs]

At 9/26/10 08:28 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 9/26/10 08:09 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Local housing associations are forced on you. Gun control is forced on you.

No it's not. It cannot be forced upon you. You either willfully joined it by buying a plot of land you knew was in one, or you elected to amend your title to include the housing association as a governing body.

You either own a plot of land, or you don't. If they can take it away from you for non-compliance, you don't really own it. You're just another shallow dupe who honestly believed homogenous cookie cutter suburbs weren't just masks for the masses of insecure to hide their personal failings.

I have serious problems with not only home-owners associations, but also the small minded nazis who invented them.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 9/26/10 08:19 PM, Musician wrote: Freedom is the most overused, abused term in existance. Nobody wants perfect freedom. Nobody wants to live in a society where you have the 'freedom' to murder somebody.

Except for the fact that 99.9% of all humans consider "not being murdered" a more important "freedom" than "being able to murder people".

In fact, the whole idea of organized society is to restrict freedom, in order to promote utility.

yeah, except for the fact that in practically all cases more freedom = more utility. Freedom in and of itself is essential to utility, but it also has wider implications, as it allows for emergent order rather than top down retarded state imposed order, and emergent order necessarily

So you lose your freedom to murder someone but you gain the liberty associated with living in a civil society.

Sorry, have you met ANYONE who promotes freedom who wants murder to be legal?

Most libertarians consider murder the absolute opposite of freedom.

If ultimate freedom means primitivism (which is what you're equating it with), then I'm glad we don't have it.

Yeah examples of stateless societies show that freedom leads to chaos and brutal civil war.

Oh wait, no they don't. Early western colonies of America were without a state, and despite being called "the wild west", in reality the MILD west is a far more fitting term, for is was far more civilised and peaceful than most any other part of America.

At 9/26/10 08:09 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: When I hear we're trying to "free country X" it makes me want to fucking puke. The whole POINT of freedom is that it's not forced on you. Seatbelt laws are forced on you. Local housing associations are forced on you. Gun control is forced on you. Cultural re-education is forced on you. Environmentalism is forced on you. Controlled substance laws are forced on you.

If this is fucking freedom, who the fuck would die to force it on someone else? Any one with a right mind would rather kill those who would bring this perversion of "liberty" upon them.

If I'm understanding your point correctly, I would say that you are absolutely correct.

Freedom, in a political sense, is simply the absence of being actively forced to do something or not do something.

Laws against murder are not a violation of freedom, because we shouldn't look at being able to commit the act of murder or not, but rather, the victim defending their own life.

Murder laws don't seek you out and force you to act in a certain way. They are merely a way of ensuring one's own property, in the way "not being able to steal stuff" is not a suppression of freedom.

Nobody wants to be murdered, and in a society that values freedom, murder laws are not active. The "vibe" of such a community i would basically be "Okay, you can do what you want, but if you want to initiate violence against us then we're going to fight back."

It is necessarily the only political position that isn't about forcing things on people.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 9/26/10 09:16 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: yeah, except for the fact that in practically all cases more freedom = more utility. Freedom in and of itself is essential to utility, but it also has wider implications, as it allows for emergent order rather than top down retarded state imposed order, and emergent order necessarily

...and emergent order necessarily provides greater aggregate utility than the calculational chaos that is state action.

[Musician]

At 9/26/10 09:16 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Except for the fact that 99.9% of all humans consider "not being murdered" a more important "freedom" than "being able to murder people".

"Not being murdered" isn't a freedom. You need to look up the definition of that word. "Not being murdered" is a privilege that's bestowed on you by the restrictions on behavior that are present in any civil society.

Sorry, have you met ANYONE who promotes freedom who wants murder to be legal? Most libertarians consider murder the absolute opposite of freedom.

That's because freedom is an abused term, and most libertarians (including yourself) don't understand the very real implications of 'perfect freedom'. There will always need to be agreed upon laws that govern society, and there will always need to be some form of enforcement for those laws.

[blue-ice-cube]

Governments loathe the idea of people being free. hell i should just move to my own island and claim it as a country they cant fucking stop me.

[Camarohusky]

At 9/26/10 08:47 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: You either own a plot of land, or you don't. If they can take it away from you for non-compliance, you don't really own it.

Yeah, but it's not forced on you. You either take title with the expressed covenant of an HOA on it, or you vote to get into it. Either way you voluntarily subjected yourself to it.

You still own it. You just lose it if you fail to follow the contractual provisions you entered into when you bought the place.

[ImaSmartass2]

Perfect Freedom is anarchy, no?

[Gustavos]

At 9/26/10 08:09 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: I think we've forgotten what "Freedom" means.

Ahh, this sounds interesting.

For one, freedom means not spending an hour everyday strapped to a chair in a little metal box.

Um, sure.

Freedom means not mowing your lawn just because other people think your grass in an eyesore.

ugh...

Freedom means bearing arms. Not guns. ARMS. Military grade arms.

...you lost all your credibility. Right there.

We're supposed to have the right in the bill of rights to form revolutionary militias.

If you're American, than you'd know how outdated that idea is. But we do have something close. Gay Pride Parades. Those guys parading around half naked in the streets don't need guns to cause terror.

How can we do that without AK47s and C4?

How about not being a terrorist? Being a politician can have some results.

we didn't have a black president until the n-word became as commonly used in our culture as "the"

It may only be where I live, but we only use the N-word in a private, joking way. And no, Black people aren't suddenly "gaining power". Obama isn't catering to his race. He acts civilized. More civilized than people think he should be. But there are no favors. Because black people are, and have been for decades, equal to all other races.

Freedom means looking at your own little plot of earth, ripping it clean off the bedrock, and selling it for top dollar, trees and fluffy bunnies be goddamned.

I actually see no problem with this. I never understood the psychology behind "tree huggers".

Freedom means doing drugs. All of them. If you die, at least your were free. If you don't die and end up in the street, it was your own choice.

Just about any drug is potentially lethal, and almost always causes permanent mental damage. It's no question why it's outlawed except for medical purposes. The reason it's not being sold to the streets is because KIDS have gotten ahold of such things, and gotten themselves killed. Sure, they were being stupid, but everybody deserves a second chance at their lives. Do you have any younger siblings? Kids? Nieces or nephew? Imagine them dying from a drug overdose.

When I hear we're trying to "free country X" it makes me want to fucking puke. The whole POINT of freedom is that it's not forced on you. Seatbelt laws are forced on you. Local housing associations are forced on you. Gun control is forced on you. Cultural re-education is forced on you. Environmentalism is forced on you. Controlled substance laws are forced on you.

We don't call it being "free". We call it being "civilized". Sorry, but you're asking for the world to turn back time.

If this is fucking freedom, who the fuck would die to force it on someone else?

Somebody with something to prove. A chip on their shoulder. Our country is still an adolescent boy. A sad thing for sure. We all want the guys in charge to quell their hard-on for war, but it's been like this since 1968.

[poxpower]

At 9/26/10 09:49 PM, Musician wrote: and there will always need to be some form of enforcement for those laws.

Right, but not enforced by the government.

What we should do it just get some people in charge of it. They'd have to be some people we trust so we could vote for them to be in charge of that and then just so they stay on their toes, we could re-vote every couple years. Then when they are chosen they would have the power to decide things for us and maybe they could even write a document or something with rules they come up with so we can all read them and maybe if we don't like them, we can chose another guy later on who will change some of those.

That would be a way better system than a "government" PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH!!111

[SadisticMonkey]

At 9/26/10 09:49 PM, Musician wrote: "Not being murdered" isn't a freedom. You need to look up the definition of that word. "Not being murdered" is a privilege that's bestowed on you by the restrictions on behavior that are present in any civil society.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realise words had objective meaning. Inter-subjective consensus be damned!

Everything regarding freedom and personal safety are "privileges that're bestowed on you by the restrictions on behaviour". I'm not saying people have some mystical "right" to be free/unmurdered.

I'm just saying that nobody values being free to kill people more than being free to not be killed.

That's because freedom is an abused term, and most libertarians (including yourself) don't understand the very real implications of 'perfect freedom'. There will always need to be agreed upon laws that govern society, and there will always need to be some form of enforcement for those laws.

Sorry, whoever said anything about no laws? I have never ever heard of any libertarian advocate no laws.

Laws would still exist in a stateless society. They emerge because of the fact that 99.99% of people are against murder.

At 9/26/10 10:57 PM, poxpower wrote: That would be a way better system than a "government" PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH!!111

Ugh for fucks sake. How about you actually read a book about statelessness before you post retarded shit like this.

I have never ever ever heard of an anti-statist claim we should vote for people to make decisions about laws, and the fact that you would suggest that they do is evidence of the fact that you have not even the slightest fucking idea of what you're talking about.

[Musician]

At 9/27/10 12:26 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Oh I'm sorry I didn't realise words had objective meaning. Inter-subjective consensus be damned!

There is an inter-subjective consensus. It's called scholarly consensus, and it's codified in something called a dictionary. Now if you're willing to get over yourself for a second you might pick up said dictionary and read the generally recognized definition of the word 'freedom'. Then look up the words 'right' (as in relations to political structures) and 'privilege'. Then, notice the stark contrast between a freedom, and a right or privilege.

Rights and privileges are granted through restrictions of freedom. You have the privilege of not being killed, because you sacrifice the freedom to kill someone. You have the right to free speech, because you sacrifice the freedom to impede on another's free speech. You have the right to democracy, because you sacrifice the freedom to impose tyranny on others.

This is basic Hobbes. If these concepts are shocking to you, you might want to consider taking a course in basic philosophy.

Sorry, whoever said anything about no laws? I have never ever heard of any libertarian advocate no laws.

Right. They abuse the word 'freedom', and obviously don't understand it's true meaning. Their language actually advocates primitivism, when in reality they advocate something completely different.

Actually, I suspect they use words like 'freedom' and 'liberty' simply because they have such positive connotations (though as displayed in this thread, freedom isn't always such a positive thing). They may or may not be aware aware that they're abusing them.

[satanbrain]

freedom without wisdom is death. stupid humans will kill themselves before they learn they are wrong, is the freedom to mistake overcoming the freedom to live?

[poxpower]

At 9/27/10 12:26 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

I have never ever ever heard of an anti-statist claim we should vote for people to make decisions about laws,

Ever heard of voting with your money?

[Shauna]

At 9/26/10 08:09 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

Freedom means not mowing your lawn just because other people think your grass in an eyesore.

You obvious don't have HOA on your ass.

we didn't have a black president until the n-word became as commonly used in our culture as "the"

Doesn't it mean "bro" now anyway?

Freedom means looking at your own little plot of earth, ripping it clean off the bedrock, and selling it for top dollar, trees and fluffy bunnies be goddamned.

Again, you never met my HOA.

Freedom means doing drugs. All of them. If you die, at least your were free. If you don't die and end up in the street, it was your own choice.

Unless it's illegal and in that case if they find you..GOODBYE FREEDOM.

[Odio]

Inaction is slavery!

Doing is freedom!

[Spysociety]

To be exactly, freedom is just utopic term relative to someone who could never get "blocked" by something; it just doesn't exist and never will be hit. Doesn't mind where you go, where you live or whatever you do, you will always be under laws, like, in a society, your work is act correct in the front of the laws and usually in a capitalist system, so, if you broke a law and think you're free, yet you're trying to think you're free, because, now laws will be behind you and even if laws didn't have existed, the Earth would be your "jail", because you can't escape Earth and if you exit from our planet, you will be blocked in the space, so this is what I means, whater you goes, you always will be being stuck in something. That is philosophy.

SpyS.

[All-American-Badass]

At 9/27/10 01:55 AM, satanbrain wrote: freedom without wisdom is death. stupid humans will kill themselves before they learn they are wrong, is the freedom to mistake overcoming the freedom to live?

No it's just social darwinism at work. stupid people will do stupid stuff, smart people will do smart stuff. and if we didn't have the freedom to mistake, how would we learn anything?

[HogWashSoup]

No one will be free until the last King is hanging by the entrails of the last priest.

King means any form of government, and Priest means any from of religious leaders and religious rules

[satanbrain]

At 9/27/10 05:51 PM, All-American-Badass wrote: No it's just social darwinism at work. stupid people will do stupid stuff, smart people will do smart stuff. and if we didn't have the freedom to mistake, how would we learn anything?

that is the wrong premise, you can learn from others' mistakes and not only from your own. you may want to experience mistaking if you are unconvinced you can learn otherwise.

[morefngdbs]

I think you may have misinterpreted Freedom
You see it isn't about you.
It isn't about him or her over there either.
No Freedom is what those in power practice & you & I & him & her, best just shut the fuck up & do what your told.
THe freedoms that our grandparents & their parents enjoyed were much more than they are now.
Now we are legislated, regulated, into ever narrowing parameters. Soon we will all be prisoners in jails we ourselves will be required to maintain.

THe begining of the end has been there for quite a while, when they built & implemented the "Homeland Security" dept inside the borders of the US. That is the writing on the wall for what big brother wants to see.
Do what your fucking told, or go into a cage & rot for all they care.

The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is its natural manure. -Thomas Jefferson

IMO its way past time to water the trees, & we need to include the 'bankers' in that quote !

[SadisticMonkey]

At 9/27/10 01:01 AM, Musician wrote: There is an inter-subjective consensus. It's called scholarly consensus

Yeah you should learn what inter-subjective consensus means

and it's codified in something called a dictionary. Now if you're willing to get over yourself for a second you might pick up said dictionary and read the generally recognized definition of the word 'freedom'.

Oh wow, because never mind what most people who talk about the word consider the words means, if its in the dictionary, written by those with the supreme authority of word definitions and how they MUST be used, then they're WRONG.

Seriously though, libertarians define what they mean by freedom when they debate/talk about it, and as long as their meaning is established, that's all that really matters.

Then look up the words 'right' (as in relations to political structures) and 'privilege'. Then, notice the stark contrast between a freedom, and a right or privilege.

Rights are entirely imaginary are a meaningless concept.

All unrestricted behaviour can be considered a "freedom", that does not however mean that people are somehow entitled to them

Rights and privileges are granted through restrictions of freedom. You have the privilege of not being killed, because you sacrifice the freedom to kill someone. You have the right to free speech, because you sacrifice the freedom to impede on another's free speech. You have the right to democracy, because you sacrifice the freedom to impose tyranny on others.

People aren't entitled to anything. There is no "right of free speech" or "right to democracy". Also, your explanation about the distinction between rights and privileges makes no sense at all.
Something is a right because you sacrifice a certain freedom, and yet applied in EXACTLY the same way to different concepts and Abracadabra it's for some reason only a privilege.

It's absolutely hilarious how you'll jump up and down about how property rights don't exist, and yet with exactly the same logic people defend property rights with you defend your mystical retarded concept of "rights".

Everything is a privilege

This is basic Hobbes. If these concepts are shocking to you, you might want to consider taking a course in basic philosophy.

wow ur rlly smart has any1 eva told u that

Right. They abuse the word 'freedom', and obviously don't understand it's true meaning. Their language actually advocates primitivism, when in reality they advocate something completely different.

So apparently no one understands the TRUE MEANING of freedom, so does the true meaning matter?

If (almost) everyone has a similar understanding of what a particular word means, thats what it means. If the dictionary says something different, it doesn't matter.

Language is not designed, it is emergent. What the inter-subjective consensus of the meaning of a word is, is what a word means, albeit in a strictly practical sense, but obviously this is the only thing that matters.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 9/27/10 02:28 AM, poxpower wrote: Ever heard of voting with your money?

Choosing to/not to buy goods/services from particular firms = OMG ITS PRACTICALLY A STATE

lol

At 9/28/10 08:14 AM, morefngdbs wrote: & we need to include the 'bankers' in that quote !

The only way bankers have so much power is through their political connections, so they aren't a problem without politicians.

[SohlTofang]

Freedom means doing what you want when you want Funk.
simple as that.
If you want to be clean of drugs, go for it. That's your personal freedom.
If you want to be imprisoned in a little box, go for it, that's your personal freedom (I for one, LOVE confined spaces)

I mean, the ONLY definition of it is doing whatever you choose to do when you want to, where you want to.
Technically no government can restrict freedom if you don't allow it.
I have the freedom to kill anyone I choose to, I just have to run from the cops.

not that I support murder or anything.

[IncendiaryProduction]

freedom means having the right to voice your opinion, wether its right or wrong.

[Antimatter500]

When I hear we're trying to "free country X" it makes me want to fucking puke. The whole POINT of freedom is that it's not forced on you. Seatbelt laws are forced on you. Local housing associations are forced on you. Gun control is forced on you. Cultural re-education is forced on you. Environmentalism is forced on you. Controlled substance laws are forced on you.

stop babbling you annoying fucking undereducated libertarian.
</thread>

[DeftAndEvil]

government is a necessary evil, my friend.
if you want to be free, go jump off a building. If you believe in the afterlife, you'll be free. If you don't, you'll rot. But hey, apparently you either want liberty or death, no compromises.