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More Child Porn mayhem

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Proteas
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 24th, 2010 @ 07:11 PM Reply

At 9/24/10 04:48 AM, lapis wrote: I'm wondering how that shit ends up your computer.

Unless somebody had physical access to your computer so that they could download the stuff directly onto your hard drive, they'd have to have your IP number and wait for you to be online. So long as you're online, they can do whatever they want.

I had something similar done to me several years back. My mother came home one day and found gay porn on the family computer, and since I was the one that used the computer the most, she questioned me about it. Never seen the crap before in my life, never wanted to, but it was there. The only thing I could attribute it to was the fact that I was using Morpheus and Limewire at the time for file-sharing, and somebody was using our computer to store their private stash.

After that, I quit using file-sharing networks.

----------

I'm of two minds on this one, because while I think it is ridiculous to be hauled off to prison for viewing child pornography, I also think it's a matter of degree. I would think it's a safe bet that there are those reading this thread right now who have probably been to various adult themed image-sharing message boards (which shall heretofore remain unnamed, but I think you all know which one I'm reffering to) on a number of occasions, and has probably ran across some random asshole anon posting child pornography they really didn't want to see. Should you be sent to prison for a happenstance viewing of it? No, that's stupid, I just wanted to see pictures of Bianca Beauchamp in a skin tight latex outfit, not pictures of some 4 year old doing things that with an adult that make me taste my own vomit.

I also don't like the whole "viewing child porongraphy encourages it's production" line. Again, stupid. That's like saying "viewing commercials on television encourage their production." No, they don't. People who actively seek out and encourage others to make child pornography for profit encourage it's production, and they should be locked up and never allowed to see the light of day again. Those in the distribution end of the business should, likewise, be locked up. Folks who have it on their hard drives just need psychotherapy, assuming all they're guilty of is possession.


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EclecticEnnui
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 24th, 2010 @ 08:17 PM Reply

At 9/24/10 04:27 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 9/24/10 01:58 PM, EclecticEnnui wrote: How is making or smoking pot like making or downloading child porn?
It's illegal, which was YOUR point, aka that no matter what I think about child porn, I should at least report people who I catch with it.

That wasn't my point. Yes, both are illegal, but pot is not like child porn. Hell, numerous people want pot legalized. I certainly haven't seen anyone wanting child porn legalized. If you don't report it when you see it, I can't do anything about that. I think it'd be morally good if you report it, but again, it's your choice.

Well go ahead, do it yourself. If you see teenagers bragging about vandalism / piracy/ drug use on forums, report them!

I don't see people bragging about vandalism. Piracy is legal in Canada, at least more or less.

When you download it, you support the industry and help give child porn a reason to keep being made and distributed.
Yes just like, if I download a song, I directly take 1$ out of Lady Gaga's bank account.
That's EXACTLY how downloading things work! Every time I copy a child porn CD, a child gets beaten while a piece of shit in Thailand finds 25 cents in the cracks of his child sex dungeon's sofa.

I don't get the 25 cents part of that sentence. A song may cost a dollar on, say, iTunes, but that doesn't mean all of it goes towards the band/artist. I actually don't download free songs, unless an artist/band makes one free, like Blur's "Fool's Day". Without this getting into a debate about piracy, pirating music isn't like making and downloading child porn. Children should not be treated like money.


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poxpower
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 24th, 2010 @ 09:10 PM Reply

At 9/24/10 08:17 PM, EclecticEnnui wrote: Without this getting into a debate about piracy

Well the debate about piracy relates to your argument, which is that by downloading / acquiring / distributing child porn, I'm somehow responsible for producing it.
That's the reverse of the piracy argument that says that whenever I download something I effectively steal cash.

Would you ever say this:

"Well if you download Star Wars that means you support George Lucas financially and the making of more Star Wars movies".
?

No. In fact the entire entertainment industry's entire rationale is based on the reverse of this and they've even managed to pass their stupid laws based on this.

It all depends where your get your filthy shit. For instance, if you happened to get it on a P2P network, then you can't possibly be held accountable as you're in no way financing any of that except in only the vaguest, craziest sense imaginable.

If you download it for free on a website, then you're more responsible for it since your visit to that site may fuel ad revenue that in turn fuels the industry.

Then if you PAY for it online, it's even worse.
And if you pay for it IN PERSON from a guy who actually makes it, then you're in big trouble.

So since it's pretty obvious that the PROVENANCE of the image is a lot more relevant than the CONTENT of the image, I think it's crazy-talk to outright jail people just for possession, no matter how much they may have and no matter what kind it may be.

If you find it, the onus is entirely on YOU to prove that the person who has it is contributing significantly to the crime of child abuse.
And this case is a clear cut example that it's NOT what law-enforcement is doing. It's a dumbass witch hunt that diverts money and man hours from actual crimes and wastes people's time.


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SadisticMonkey
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 04:34 AM Reply

downloading child pornography off of 4chan directly funds child rapists and the future rape of children

somehow, magically

hence, you deserve to have your entire life destroyed forever


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Markface
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 06:03 AM Reply

At 9/23/10 08:46 PM, HibiscusKazeneko wrote:
Neil Weiner launched the "wickedly evil and vile plot" hoping to get Eddie Thompson sacked so that he could be promoted.
Haha, his name is Weiner.

God I hate how funny I find that.


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lapis
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 06:19 AM Reply

At 9/24/10 07:11 PM, Proteas wrote: After that, I quit using file-sharing networks.

Of course. Similarly, if I don't secure my wireless network resulting in my next door neighbour downloading a total of 4 Gb of child porn over a period of several weeks using my modem, then I'm in trouble. The same line of reasoning would apply if someone used my WLAN to spread a computer virus or worm. Maybe after some months spent in detention while the police investigate whether someone else's computer directed the download I get released, but in the end it's my fault for allowing anybody to use my Internet connection. I mean, tough titties. It's as stupid as allowing some random stranger to use my bank account and then feeling mistreated when the police arrest me for tranferring money to some al-Qaeda linked organisation.

It's really your fault for being naive, and while you may not deserve to go to prison you at the very least deserve to be held in custody until a proper investigation and trial in court have been concluded.

People who actively seek out and encourage others to make child pornography for profit encourage it's production, and they should be locked up and never allowed to see the light of day again.

The "for profit" is not needed. Besides, whose arguments are you countering? Who specifically, here or in a government, is saying that having one or stray child porn pictures in your temporary internet files folder encourages more production and/or should be sent to jail?


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SadisticMonkey
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 06:33 AM Reply

Um, guys, I think you're forgetting Say's law.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 08:24 AM Reply

At 9/25/10 06:33 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Um, guys, I think you're forgetting Say's law.

Care to elaborate? I get the feeling you're trying to make a point that I diasgree with but it's hard for me to argue against something that you may or may not be saying.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 08:54 AM Reply

and now to complete appall everyone here.

Weiner pulled a Hitler imo. he successfully pinned the one he hated and turned everyone against him. He would have gotten away with it too, if only he hadn't used his own cell phone to contact the media about the arrest. now he spends 12 years in jail with Big Bubba tapping is 40 year old ass because he couldn't control himself and became reckless.

such is the fate of all who would try to pin a crime on someone but decides the cake needs frosting and their plan backfires on them because of it.

Good job dumbass you almost pulled it off.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 09:43 AM Reply

At 9/25/10 08:24 AM, lapis wrote:
At 9/25/10 06:33 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Um, guys, I think you're forgetting Say's law.
Care to elaborate? I get the feeling you're trying to make a point that I diasgree with but it's hard for me to argue against something that you may or may not be saying.

According to Wikipedia (which I had to check for the definition of that very item), Say's Law posits that supply creates demand, not the other way around (paraphrased). Which, while probably true to an extent, seems to be arguing, in this case, that demand has no effect on supply at all, and that it will always match (or exceed) any given supply. Which I disagree with pretty completely. If this is not what you (Sadistic) are arguing, I'm all ears, but it sounds like you're saying that no amount of demand will ever change the available supply of anything, CP included.

It's one thing to say that there will always be SOME supply of CP, it is yet another to say that demand has no causal effect on supply.

Also, focusing on money is a red herring, imo. Much CP, like much of the video elsewhere online, is not made for profit... but rather for a community that shares files. If a particular video is popular, the one who made it can be inspired to make another, or others may be inspired to make their own. This is basic human psychology of a type we see on Youtube every day... producers of CP are no less affected by these same pressures. So yes, downloading a video of CP can create, indirectly, more CP and more abuse. Studios that make CP to sell are less affected by these pressures, because internet distribution is incidental to their profit margin, as, if I understand the business correctly (and I honestly hope I don't, but I digress) most videos are made on commission for a single buyer, not mass-produced for several like regular-market movies and DVDs. So the distribution of any of their material is of no consequence as they already made their money. However, if a vid of theirs gains popularity online, it could inspire someone to commission a new video.


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poxpower
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 03:02 PM Reply

At 9/25/10 09:43 AM, Ravariel wrote:
So yes, downloading a video of CP can create, indirectly, more CP and more abuse.

I'm sorry but that crosses the line into the "video games cause violence" territory where you get to blame whatever you want for inspiring others because they saw it in a movie or in a game.


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Ravariel
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 03:19 PM Reply

At 9/25/10 03:02 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 9/25/10 09:43 AM, Ravariel wrote:
So yes, downloading a video of CP can create, indirectly, more CP and more abuse.
I'm sorry but that crosses the line into the "video games cause violence" territory where you get to blame whatever you want for inspiring others because they saw it in a movie or in a game.

No, it doesn't for two reasons:

a) Video game and violence correlations have been pretty much scientifically proven false. In fact, many studies show that playing video games increases a person's ability to deal with frustration and opposition... the more violent the game the better they do.

b) Why does cp get made? For three reasons: 1) personal, 2) sharing, 3) profit. 1 is likely completely unaffected by online popularity, 3 can be affected in the positive as it gets the studio name out to a larger audience, 2 is heavily affected by online popularity, as the number of views/downloads is a direct motivating factor for the production of the video.

To claim that a videos popularity has no effect on the "industry" as a whole I believe is naive. If people didn't want it, very little would ever be produced, as sad as that is.


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poxpower
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 03:34 PM Reply

At 9/25/10 03:19 PM, Ravariel wrote:
No, it doesn't for two reasons:

a) Video game and violence correlations have been pretty much scientifically proven false. In fact, many studies show that playing video games increases a person's ability to deal with frustration and opposition... the more violent the game the better they do.

So where's the study that shows people downloading child porn increases occurrences of child abuse?

To claim that a videos popularity has no effect on the "industry" as a whole I believe is naive. If people didn't want it, very little would ever be produced, as sad as that is.

And I can claim that they don't want exposure because it puts them more at risk of getting caught.
We're in speculation land at this point.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 25th, 2010 @ 08:44 PM Reply

At 9/25/10 03:34 PM, poxpower wrote: So where's the study that shows people downloading child porn increases occurrences of child abuse?

Hard to find good studies on the subject because of the subject matter. However, can you think of any other reason that someone would make such a video/photoshoot? Or do you actually think that #1 and #3 that I mentioned before are the only reasons, EVAR, that people make CP?

And I can claim that they don't want exposure because it puts them more at risk of getting caught.

If they didn't want exposure, they wouldn't film themselves doing what is arguably one of the most despicable acts imaginable and putting it on the internet. If that logic prevailed, CP would never be a problem. Why do you think there is such a different mentality between those who film themselves getting kicked in the crotch and putting it on youtube, and those who film naked children and put it online? WHY ELSE would someone put that out there for people to download? And if no one ever downloaded it, why would anyone ever make the films to begin with?

There is a very real, logical, causal link between desire for, and consumption of, this product, and its production. To argue otherwise is retarded.


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poxpower
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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 12:15 AM Reply

At 9/25/10 08:44 PM, Ravariel wrote:
Or do you actually think that #1 and #3 that I mentioned before are the only reasons, EVAR, that people make CP?

Well like I said, how many are actually inspired by that? Because child porn has been an industry for a lot longer than the internet has. Did it get way worse because of the internet?

Or are there other factors that affect it about a billion times more, like crime rate, sexual education, poverty, mental therapies etc.

If going after everyone who has child porn online "prevents" like 5 kids from getting raped but jails 4000 people and wastes 20 million dollars or something, then it's clearly a waste of time.

If they didn't want exposure, they wouldn't film themselves doing what is arguably one of the most despicable acts imaginable and putting it on the internet.

Unless someone's paying them for it.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 02:39 AM Reply

I get what you mean, just because some people looks at those doesn't mean they'll "do it" in real life.

On to the article, whoa...


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 06:19 PM Reply

At 9/26/10 12:15 AM, poxpower wrote:
At 9/25/10 08:44 PM, Ravariel wrote:
Or do you actually think that #1 and #3 that I mentioned before are the only reasons, EVAR, that people make CP?
Well like I said, how many are actually inspired by that? Because child porn has been an industry for a lot longer than the internet has. Did it get way worse because of the internet?

That's... a good question. My gut says yes, but I don't know that for certain. The effect that the internet has had on other industries related to film, video, and images (see: youtube, etc) would point to a bigger CP problem, but who knows. Again, this is one of those things that is hard to study, due to the illegality of actually viewing the material in question. I can't imagine the gummn't allowing immunity for some college guy to look at CP to determine if the internets are causing the instances to boom.

Or are there other factors that affect it about a billion times more, like crime rate, sexual education, poverty, mental therapies etc.

I'm sure those do, indeed, effect the availability and production. Especially considering that countries like Thailand and Eastern Europe, some of the poorest countries with good access to technology are the hotbeds of the CP industry. This really would be a wonderful (and terrible) avenue of study for an anthropologist.

If going after everyone who has child porn online "prevents" like 5 kids from getting raped but jails 4000 people and wastes 20 million dollars or something, then it's clearly a waste of time.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "wasted". I agree that our current policies are kind of ridiculous. Charging a 14-year old who sexted her boyfriend with possession and distribution of CP is retarded. Full stop. I think Penn and Teller did a show about something exactly like this, where a kid was put on the Sex Offender registry because a friend of him forwarded him such a picture. However, I'm sure there is some sort of mens rea statute that could be implemented that can discern between those who dl'ed the wrong thing on accident, and those who are seeking it out on purpose.

Hell, I've argued before that CP should be legal. Based mostly on the fact that only in this instance is the image of a crime itself a crime, which could be stuck under 14th amendment inequality, and also 1st amendment issues of free speech (mostly in this regard to actual artistic images of children who happen to be naked, and films of nudist gatherings, etc). It's one of those almost-devil's-advocate things, where I can honestly see both sides, and agree with both of them, and don't really know where the law should stand to give us a truly fair system.

Unless someone's paying them for it.

Well, that's another can of worms all together.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 07:01 PM Reply

Would it have been too much to ask to look at the time all the files appeared on the computer? Wouldn't it be a little suspicious to have all of the pictures appear on his computer at the same time? Also, he could have had an alibi for the time, which would prove his innocence, and that's all that needed to happen.

Also, it's illegal for minors to look at child porn. Shouldn't it be okay for a kid to be attracted to someone his or her own age? I don't really get this law.

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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 07:20 PM Reply

At 9/26/10 06:19 PM, Ravariel wrote: Hell, I've argued before that CP should be legal. Based mostly on the fact that only in this instance is the image of a crime itself a crime, which could be stuck under 14th amendment inequality, and also 1st amendment issues of free speech (mostly in this regard to actual artistic images of children who happen to be naked, and films of nudist gatherings, etc). It's one of those almost-devil's-advocate things, where I can honestly see both sides, and agree with both of them, and don't really know where the law should stand to give us a truly fair system.

Child porn is not the same as pictures of naked children in nudist gatherings. See the COPINE scale. And how does the 14th amendment come into play? Raping and sexualizing children is illegal, (maybe the sexualizing part differs somewhat) so pictures of them are, too. Real pictures, of course. It's interesting, though, because Cannibal Holocaust, a film that features real animal killings, is legal in the US. However, it was done artistically and animals probably don't have the same rights children have.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 07:45 PM Reply

At 9/26/10 06:19 PM, Ravariel wrote:
That's... a good question. My gut says yes, but I don't know that for certain.

I'm looking for those facts and I can't find em'.

Again, this is one of those things that is hard to study, due to the illegality of actually viewing the material in question.

Well, not really, it's a simple stat: what's the rate of sexual child crimes in the country?
Seems straightforward enough.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "wasted".

Spending 20 million ( random number ) to save 5 kids is a waste considering that you could probably save 10 times as many if you invested that money in medicine and hospitals.

Hence "wasted". Plus you're jailing people and pulling them out of the economy and then instead pay like 20-30k a year to keep them in jail. So they skip generating their, say, 15-20k salary on top of which they actually cost money, all under the unfounded assumption that if you look at child porn then you're guilty of child abuse.


Hell, I've argued before that CP should be legal. Based mostly on the fact that only in this instance is the image of a crime itself a crime, which could be stuck under 14th amendment inequality, and also 1st amendment issues of free speech (mostly in this regard to actual artistic images of children who happen to be naked, and films of nudist gatherings, etc).

Yep. I don't know if it's legal to pass around snuff films of people getting tortured/killed etc but I'm guessing it is and it does generate some revenue.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 26th, 2010 @ 08:29 PM Reply

Did you just defend child porn?

Now I've seen fucking everything.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 27th, 2010 @ 04:22 AM Reply

What about hentai? Is that wrong too? I don't see the point in sending people like that to jail. It's wrong, it's disturbing, but not jail worthy. There are so many more horrible people doing so many horrible things. They need to take that stick out of their asses.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 27th, 2010 @ 09:19 AM Reply

Reminds me, to a lesser extent, to the question what should be done with rape charges. It happens that people get falsely accused of rape and domestic violence and get thrown in jail, or lose their reputation over nothing. But then it comes to what the best way is to deal with these accusation. You can't just tell the "abusive" husband that his wife filed a complaint and you are researching it. That will cause the man to do worse stuff to his wife if he was guilty.

Now, in case of paedophilia this is less the case, since there are no actual victims. Still, if left out of control, it can result in the guy actually harassing kids himself. But I will agree, a public scandal about this might trash an innocent.

a while back there was some mess about a cardinal who possessed CP, this was actually made worse in the backlash of paedophile priests. eventually, the pictures were part of a slide show about third world aid campaign (you know poor villages->naked kids running around and so on) and the organisation said it was sad that such pictures my be made in such a big deal.
As far as I know, the cardinal didn't really get jailed, so it turned out okay.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 27th, 2010 @ 02:15 PM Reply

Just remember though that child porn IS a serious thing...
I had a neighbor two years ago who was really cool until we found out he drugged his son, raped him anally and put it on the internet, then some cops showed up at his house, one of his daughters (who we think also got raped) suicided and a lot of creepy shit happened.

He isn't in jail yet though because they don't have sufficient evidence that it was his computer, I think the news report is gonna come out next month I'm not sure.


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Response to More Child Porn mayhem Sep. 27th, 2010 @ 02:18 PM Reply

At 9/27/10 02:15 PM, FurryDemon wrote: Just remember though that child porn IS a serious thing...
I had a neighbor two years ago who was really cool until we found out he drugged his son, raped him anally and put it on the internet, then some cops showed up at his house, one of his daughters (who we think also got raped) suicided and a lot of creepy shit happened.

He isn't in jail yet though because they don't have sufficient evidence that it was his computer, I think the news report is gonna come out next month I'm not sure.

Dude, if you think you've seen it bad you should see how shit awful it is where I live, the even more shit thing is that since it's all privacy involved most pedophiles are REALLY good at covering it up, and police like to make people believe they are getting it all under control when they can't really do shit.


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