Republican Ppl and Republican Gov

[Kwing]

Just as a primer, I believe that instead of opposing political parties being right and wrong, each party has a different ideology, and that following any political ideology PROPERLY, any form of government from communism to republics to democracies to anarchies to monarchies is a paradise. And my main post...

I don't get how republican citizens vote for republican politicians. It just doesn't make sense to me. Republican politicians are always supportive of big businesses, and while they want to lower taxes and keep the federal government from getting too involved with the people, the large businesses are running everything and everyone. Just look at Wal-Mart! They build a store in a remote area, people are unable to resist the low prices, and they dominate all of the small businesses.

Republican citizens, oftentimes being farmers or living in rural areas owning family-owned small businesses and such, don't seem like the type that would vote for republican politicians. I believe that most republican citizens are good-intentioned, despite being mostly liberal myself.

The only explanation I can come up with is that republican politicians are appealing to the citizen's religion, calling themselves Christian and such, or trying to paint themselves up as "real Americans". While I absolutely hate the traditional right-winged Christian because of how stubborn and dogmatic they tend to be, I don't like watching them shooting themselves in the foot by electing politicians that are going to destroy their small businesses. Discuss.

[Malachy]

to try and stereotype either major party is difficult to do because they are umbrella parties.

You see, the US has a two party system mostly because the two major parties eat up ideas from new political movements and incorporate them into their platforms. Sometimes they don't even choose a ideological side, they just pick up the opposite of whatever the other party took up. How else do we get parties that seem to contradict themselves in their own policies?

The Progressive Party might have taken over American politics...except before they even got organized their ideas were picked up in pieces by each party. Democrats took a little of this and Republicans a little of that.

As things change, both parties have changed to stay popular. They have a "core" base that they can count on and they pander to them during primaries (like you see happening now), but during general election, the rhetoric becomes who's the most centrist.

You can sort of see it happening with the tea party movement right now. They're being hijacked by neo-cons because their ideas for political changes can easily get picked up by one of the two umbrella parties. You see how the republicans are trying to get the tea party support in primaries? Guess where the tea party will be in a couple of years if the Republican party just absorbs their new ideas?

in short, both parties make it a matter of policy to try and appeal to as many people as possible so they will have policies that don't quite mesh with their basic ideas of left vs. right. That's how the Democratic party can go from hotbed for anti-civil rights 70 years ago to the party to have the first black president.

[Korriken]

At 8/20/10 10:47 PM, Kwing wrote: Just look at Wal-Mart! They build a store in a remote area, people are unable to resist the low prices, and they dominate all of the small businesses.

half truth. a walmart opened up in my town a few years back. how many small businesses were shut down? none. the local grocery stores are still here, the local shops are still around, the local clothing and shoe store are still open for business. I look around and not much has changed. I work at a furniture store that has been around a while and it wasn't shut down by the local walmart.

some stores do shut down when a walmart comes to town. many of them are on the verge of collapse without walmart's help. walmart simply deals the death blow. Local stores with a solid reputation shrug off walmart and continue to thrive. those that are not so... sterling... end up going under, especially the ones whose prices are unbelievably high (oddly enough the local winn dixie has some insanely high prices and somehow manages to stay open).

the town I live in, amite, louisiana has a walmart, along with the local Ardillo's (which is less than 1 mile from walmart and is still going good) and Trabona's (althought I think he sold it and retired last year. It's still there though, still open, just someone else took it over). Hell, we even have a local produce store... of course, being stocked by local farmers it's kinda seasonal. Still, the produce is much fresher than Walmart's, and people shop there.

many small towns have stores in which the owners try to soak the locals for all they can. then walmart steps in and they go under. Though walmart has a role to play in many stores closing, one would have to take a closer look at each store to see everything that caused it to sink.

I'm no staunch walmart advocate, but one must be fair when it comes to all things in life. can't blame every store that goes under on walmart.

[Gario]

At 8/20/10 11:35 PM, Malachy wrote: As things change, both parties have changed to stay popular. They have a "core" base that they can count on and they pander to them during primaries (like you see happening now), but during general election, the rhetoric becomes who's the most centrist.

Game theoretically speaking, this is correct. In fact, the Nash Equilibrium position that any president could hold is, indeed, a 100% centrist position, so to represent oneself as anything other than a centrist is folly, for the sake of winning an election.

[conservative23]

I don't get how people vote for Democrat politicians, they stand for big government.

Just look at cap and trade!

[poxpower]

At 8/21/10 01:53 AM, Gario wrote:

Game theoretically speaking, this is correct. In fact, the Nash Equilibrium position that any president could hold is, indeed, a 100% centrist position, so to represent oneself as anything other than a centrist is folly, for the sake of winning an election.

Well they all say that THEY'RE the center and the other guys are the crazies.
:p

I've never heard anything good from Republicans in like 4-5 years of mildly caring.

The picture pretty much everyone is getting is that republicans are a PR machine that does nothing but spin and lies at this point, backed by Fox news and its armada of crazies.
Every week a republican makes the news by saying something incredibely racist, self-centered or retarded.

They seem to fall on the wrong side of every possible issue in the last couple years.

Iraq war, gay marriage, ground zero community center...

By contrast, the democrats seem to only be interested in being a bunch of pussies who get walked on and manage to lose impossible races because they try to appeal to everyone all the time. Like how lately Obama, about the ground zero Mosque, has carefully chosen to say "they have the right to build it but I won't comment on the wisdom to built it there" or about gay marriage where he says "I"m against it, but they should have the right to do it".

Blar.

That being said, Republicans and their voters are pretty much demonstrably more stupid than democrats. In just about every poll they fall behind on education, general knowledge and social progress.

But that's not to say democrats don't have a lot of retards too. I think lately something like 46% of republicans thought Obama was a Muslim and like 20% of democrats.

What?

I'm fucking CANADIAN and I know what his religion is. Where do they find these people to answer polls? Jeez.

[Dawnslayer]

At 8/21/10 04:51 PM, conservative23 wrote: I don't get how people vote for Democrat politicians, they stand for big government.

Just look at cap and trade!

We vote for Democrats because Republicans scare us. Here's an overview of the two sides from my perspective:

Money
Democrats - tax and spend.
Republicans - spend into a hole until they're voted out, then let the Democrats raise the taxes so they can get voted back in.

Media
Democrats - regulate.
Republicans - deregulate, a.k.a. add more regulation to favor shareholders at the expense of independent journalism.

Healthcare
Democrats - nationalize.
Republicans - do nothing until the Democrats come up with an idea, then fight them every step of the way on it to make it look like they're doing something.

Immigration
Democrats - amnesty.
Republicans - raise a panic about 'terror babies' to get funding for a border fence that won't do jack to keep out illegals.

Environment
Democrats - cap and trade.
Republicans - look the other way while businesses ignore safety standards and dump their pollutants into the air and water supply.

Social issues
Democrats - live and let live.
Republicans - Control every personal lifestyle decision that could possibly involve their idea of morality.

Overall:
Democrats - big government controlling your money.
Republicans - bigger government controlling your liberty.

Now if you'd like to enlighten me as to how the Democrats are worse than the Republicans, have at it.

[LordZeebmork]

At 8/22/10 05:58 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: Money
Democrats - tax and spend.
Republicans - spend into a hole until they're voted out, then let the Democrats raise the taxes so they can get voted back in.

Democrats - tax like hell and spend on shit we don't need.
Republicans - well, they have people like Mitch Daniels, but on the other hand, they have idiots like Reagan and Bush, so...

Media
Democrats - regulate.
Republicans - deregulate, a.k.a. add more regulation to favor shareholders at the expense of independent journalism.

Democrats - bitch and whine about Fox News being a pile of truth-distorting ideologues while ignoring the fact that most of the things they pay attention to are also piles of truth-distorting ideologues
Republicans - admit that everything is a pile of truth-distorting ideologues, except maybe sometimes CNN

Healthcare
Democrats - nationalize.
Republicans - do nothing until the Democrats come up with an idea, then fight them every step of the way on it to make it look like they're doing something.

Democrats - talk about how great England has it (lol)
Republicans - come up with proposals that are opposed by the Democrats until the Democrats decide they need to pass some sort of health care reform

Immigration
Democrats - amnesty.
Republicans - raise a panic about 'terror babies' to get funding for a border fence that won't do jack to keep out illegals.

Democrats - raise hell about laws against illegal immigration
Republicans - try to do things but never get anywhere because political correctness

Environment
Democrats - cap and trade.
Republicans - look the other way while businesses ignore safety standards and dump their pollutants into the air and water supply.

Democrats - lol Al Gore and also ignoring Climategate
Republicans - publicize the story of Climategate and wait for actual scientific confirmation

Social issues
Democrats - live and let live.
Republicans - Control every personal lifestyle decision that could possibly involve their idea of morality.

Democrats - LHAGLHAGLHALHAG RACISM EVERYWHERE
Republicans - a hell of a lot of libertarians are in the Republican party, whereas I don't think I've seen any in the Democratic party

Now if you'd like to enlighten me as to how the Democrats are worse than the Republicans, have at it.

There you go.

Also, it's 3:30am and I honestly can't be bothered to actually research any of this shit, but I'm probably right so whatever.

[Dawnslayer]

At 8/23/10 03:19 AM, LordZeebmork wrote:

At 8/22/10 05:58 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: Now if you'd like to enlighten me as to how the Democrats are worse than the Republicans, have at it.

There you go.

You showed the Democrats as no better than the Republicans, but not worse. I guess it just comes down to the priorities of the voter in question.

[conservative23]

At 8/22/10 05:58 PM, Dawnslayer wrote:

At 8/21/10 04:51 PM, conservative23 wrote: I don't get how people vote for Democrat politicians, they stand for big government.

We vote for Democrats because Republicans scare us. Here's an overview of the two sides from my perspective:

Money
Democrats - tax and spend, even if we are facing trillions of dollars in debt
Republicans - Cut spending while maybe increasing military spending during war times.

Media
Democrats - Regulate, launch "wars" on news channels that go against you (Obama and his "war on fox news" awhile back).
Republicans - Deregulate, government has no authority in telling what the media has to do.

Healthcare
Democrats - nationalize, thereby raising taxes in times of recessions all while driving down the quality of the treatment, and creating long waiting lines.
Republicans - Believe in more competition in the healthcare industry, thereby increasing the quality while helping stabilize growing premiums.

Immigration
Democrats - Amnesty to 12 million illegal immigrant criminals who broke immigration laws and completely slapped those in the face who are waiting legally to get here.
Republicans - Punish those who break immigration laws like how you would punish any other criminal.

Environment
Democrats - cap and trade, again, more spending and more unnecessary taxes, propaganda spread by Al Gore to help him get richer seeing as he is invested in the "clean energy industry".
Republicans - Believe in some regulation, but not controlling businesses and telling them what to do

Social issues
Democrats - Force people to pay for those who are too lazy to get a job, ignore the will of the people by passing unpopular bills. Want to grow government to regulate and control more businesses.
Republicans - Want to keep their heads out of the private sector and enforce laws the democrats don't want to like immigration laws, but apparently liberals think this is too "controlling" and "racist".

Overall:
Democrats - big government controlling your money.
Republicans - The people can keep most of their hard earned money without some democrat sleezeball trying to take it.

[Dawnslayer]

At 8/23/10 08:04 PM, conservative23 wrote: Money
Democrats - tax and spend, even if we are facing trillions of dollars in debt
Republicans - Cut spending while maybe increasing military spending during war times.

I would love to know how Republicans managed to cut spending, because last time I checked spending increased under the last three Republican administrations.

Media
Democrats - Regulate, launch "wars" on news channels that go against you (Obama and his "war on fox news" awhile back).
Republicans - Deregulate, government has no authority in telling what the media has to do.

Republicans added media regulation and called it deregulation. Explain to me how that works.

Healthcare
Democrats - nationalize, thereby raising taxes in times of recessions all while driving down the quality of the treatment, and creating long waiting lines.
Republicans - Believe in more competition in the healthcare industry, thereby increasing the quality while helping stabilize growing premiums.

If it worked that perfectly I'd be all for it. Unfortunately "competition" in the industry now amounts to whoever the government owes the most favors, most notably pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

Immigration
Democrats - Amnesty to 12 million illegal immigrant criminals who broke immigration laws and completely slapped those in the face who are waiting legally to get here.
Republicans - Punish those who break immigration laws like how you would punish any other criminal.

I would have no problem with that, if that's what they were focusing on. Instead we're being fed this 'terror baby' crap.

Environment
Democrats - cap and trade, again, more spending and more unnecessary taxes, propaganda spread by Al Gore to help him get richer seeing as he is invested in the "clean energy industry".
Republicans - Believe in some regulation, but not controlling businesses and telling them what to do

Like the "regulation" on the last two domestic oil fields to spill into populated areas as performed by the officials at Mineral Management Services, who were hired directly out of the corporations they were supposed to be monitoring?

Social issues
Democrats - Force people to pay for those who are too lazy to get a job, ignore the will of the people by passing unpopular bills. Want to grow government to regulate and control more businesses.
Republicans - Want to keep their heads out of the private sector and enforce laws the democrats don't want to like immigration laws, but apparently liberals think this is too "controlling" and "racist".

That doesn't even answer social issues. Also be careful where you use the word "liberal" as not all liberals are of the same mind; you didn't hear me yakking about conservatives.

Overall:
Democrats - big government controlling your money.
Republicans - The people can keep most of their hard earned money without some democrat sleezeball trying to take it.

Okay, here's my biggest issue with your response: my argument was that Democrats are bad, but Republicans are worse. Your presentation, on the other hand, is that Democrats are evil incarnate while the Republicans are a godsend. I read that kind of response as naive and uninformed at best. If you can find fault somewhere in the GOP, then maybe there's room for actual discussion of the issues. Otherwise I'm just talking to a wall.

[Imperator]

Now if you'd like to enlighten me as to how the Democrats are worse than the Republicans, have at it.

Republicans can actually get shit done (however fucked up it may or may not end up being).

The Democrats are completely incompetent, and can't get anything accomplished.

Another way of putting it:
How many Democrats does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Doesn't matter how many democrats there are, it takes 1 republican to get anything done anyway.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 8/23/10 08:04 PM, conservative23 wrote:

At 8/22/10 05:58 PM, Dawnslayer wrote:

At 8/21/10 04:51 PM, conservative23 wrote: I don't get how people vote for Democrat politicians, they stand for big government.

Most of the things you describe are things republican politicians [some of them] pay lip service to but have never delivered on.

Statism is politically expedient, anti-statism is not.

[LordZeebmork]

At 8/24/10 01:30 AM, Imperator wrote: Republicans can actually get shit done (however fucked up it may or may not end up being).

The Democrats are completely incompetent, and can't get anything accomplished.

Really? It seems to me like they've been getting some things done...

What about Obamacare? Oh wait, that was originally a Republican idea.
What about the bailout? Oh wait, Bush did that first.
What about cap and trade? Oh wait, the Clean Air Act of 1990 was passed under the first Bush, and a bill to expand it was proposed and supported by Republicans.
What about political correctness? Oh wait, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed unde the first Bush.

Oh fuck it. The Democrats are the Republicans.

[gumOnShoe]

At 8/24/10 10:12 PM, LordZeebmork wrote: Really? It seems to me like they've been getting some things done...

What about Obamacare? Oh wait, that was originally a Republican idea.

Healthcare reform was originally an idea held up by everyone, and over decades was pursued most by democrats; however, the plan that was implemented most closely resembled the health care reform in Massachusetts which was led by Republican governor Mitt Romney. This shift towards a republican idea moved away from many liberal ideas, such as a public option. So, yes this is a center piece of legislation, but it still isn't solely Republican. You just can't claim they didn't have a hand in it. What begs a question is why, if these are Republican ideas, Republicans chose not to vote for it.

What about the bailout? Oh wait, Bush did that first.

A democratic congress passed his idea and then we were committed to that particular course of action. Frankly, the bailouts worked to stabilize the economy. They were never a miracle patch though. Had the industrial center of the U.S. failed (the car industry) along with AIG (which insures everything), we would have plunged strait into a depression. But again, who is against it now, when they voted for it to begin with? Republicans.

What about cap and trade? Oh wait, the Clean Air Act of 1990 was passed under the first Bush, and a bill to expand it was proposed and supported by Republicans.

Cap & Trade was a republican idea, but not the limiting of green house gases. Its funny now that most Republicans act like Cap & Trade was a democratic idea, and use it to oppose Democrats. The idea was to create a Market for carbon rather than implementing strict regulations. Very republican. It probably would have worked, but its not a great idea either.

What about political correctness? Oh wait, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed unde the first Bush.

Political correctness goes further than cripples. lol

Oh fuck it. The Democrats are the Republicans.

No, the Democrats are the only one's compromising now, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since they aren't getting votes. They should pass their own legislation now, while they have the chance.

[TheMason]

At 8/20/10 10:47 PM, Kwing wrote: Just as a primer, I believe that instead of opposing political parties being right and wrong, each party has a different ideology, and that following any political ideology PROPERLY, any form of government from communism to republics to democracies to anarchies to monarchies is a paradise. And my main post...

I think this belief is woefully naive and devoid of a grounding in history. The ideals of socialism and communism have been tried. They fail because wealth redistribution is inheriently flawed in that it is rooted in the belief that government somehow transcends the human condition. That a bureaucracy is immune to negative motivators such as greed or the lust for power.

Politicians are motivated from the same self-interest that CEOs are which leads to corruption (from all political parties and/or ideologies). What you get with socialism, communism or collectivist off-shoots are parasitic government structures that suck money away from the private sector.

Now, some may object to my parasite metaphor, but it is based in the fact that public sector funds are generated from taxing private sector profits and income. It is all well and good for politicians to talk about evil corporations...but without private corporations (big or small) profits and incomes there is no tax revenue. The government cannot support itself unless it scraps the market and adopts a command economy...which is so inefficient that it will eventually collapse.

So no...not every ideology can yeild a paradise.

Just look at Wal-Mart! They build a store in a remote area, people are unable to resist the low prices, and they dominate all of the small businesses.

Is it Wal-Mart or sociology? For example, when Wal-Mart moved into the town where my dad grew-up in the 1980s the fabric store that my dad worked at for his first job struggled for about five years and then closed.

Many ppl blamed Wal-Mart. However, this was the 1980s and society was changing. When my dad grew-up his mother sewed the clothing he and his siblings wore. She and many other housewives shopped at this particular store. But when I was growing up my mother worked. She didn't have the time to sew clothes for the family. Furthermore, with a dual income my family could afford clothes already made.

So the question is what killed the fabric store? Competiton from Wal-Mart or a consumer demand drying up because of a change in our society?

Furthermore, the area around the new Super Wal-Mart in the town I discussed above has witnessed an explosion in small businesses around it. Same thing in the area where I grew-up. There are many small, retail businesses surrounding the Super Wal-Mart. Hell I've even seen Super Wal-Marts in strip malls right next to GameStop.

Furthermore, there are retail goods and services that Wal-Mart does not provide to the rural customer. I cannot buy feed there or livestock such as chickens and other fowl.

[LordZeebmork]

At 8/25/10 07:41 AM, gumOnShoe wrote:

At 8/24/10 10:12 PM, LordZeebmork wrote: Really? It seems to me like they've been getting some things done...

What about Obamacare? Oh wait, that was originally a Republican idea.

Healthcare reform was originally an idea held up by everyone, and over decades was pursued most by democrats; however, the plan that was implemented most closely resembled the health care reform in Massachusetts which was led by Republican governor Mitt Romney.

Which is why I said Obamacare, not health care reform in general.

What begs a question is why, if these are Republican ideas, Republicans chose not to vote for it.

Because they're the opposition party and they have taken the political role of opposing everything the party in power does. That's politics.

But again, who is against it now, when they voted for it to begin with? Republicans.

Probably because the Republican Party shifted to fiscal conservatism almost immediately after Obama was elected.

Its funny now that most Republicans act like Cap & Trade was a democratic idea, and use it to oppose Democrats. The idea was to create a Market for carbon rather than implementing strict regulations. Very republican. It probably would have worked, but its not a great idea either.

Maybe very Republican then, when the Republicans were fiscally center-left. But now they don't want to have much of anything to do with business regulations.

What about political correctness? Oh wait, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed unde the first Bush.

Political correctness goes further than cripples. lol

Political correctness goes further than any specific group. The main thing Obama has done for political correctness is be black. Then there are his Supreme Court nominations and his rhetoric, but as far as I know, that's all he's done.

Oh fuck it. The Democrats are the Republicans.

No, the Democrats are the only one's compromising now, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since they aren't getting votes. They should pass their own legislation now, while they have the chance.

Exactly. Now that the Republicans are economically far right, the Democrats have been forced to take the center-left position that the Republicans had under Bush to win more moderates. Basic game theory would say that the Democrats want to stay just to the left of the Republicans on everything, so they can get the most moderates. (If you and someone else have to guess a number between 0 and 10, and whoever gets closest to the number I'm thinking of wins a prize, you'll want to guess x-1 if the other guy guesses x>5, and x+1 if the other guy guesses x<5. This is the same idea.) That model doesn't include firing up the base, which I'd bet is one of the main reasons why the Republicans moved right. And it worked; I've seen a lot of articles saying that Republicans will probably win elections where more people favor the Democratic candidate because more Republicans than Democrats will actually bother to vote.