Phelps-Roper v. Koster

[WeHaveFreshCookies]

A very interesting case that deals with the right to free speech. As I'm Scottish, this particular case doesn't directly effect me. But I'm fascinated regardless. It has just been decided by a federal judge. You can read about that here.

Basically, it asks if there is a point where people should not be allowed to say certain things in certain places at certain times. It deals with a blurry line in that most basic of human rights - Free speech.

The Phelps family and their 'church', Westboro Baptist, were banned from protesting within 300 feet of a funeral by the state of Missouri in a law entitled, "Spc. Edward Lee Myers Law" (The equivalent of about 90 metres, I believe.) This group, if you don't already know, is rather famous for their protests. You can read about all of that here.

What do you think about this law? Do you approve or disapprove of the Judge's decision to overturn it? And should there be SOMETHING in place to soften the damage to the victims of this group's activities? Or would that be too damaging to the idea of free speech that we all hold so dear? It's a fine line, to be sure. But on what side of it do you stand?

[FatherTime89]

I personally think protesting at someone's funeral is akin to harassment and should be treated as such (harsher actually).

I do believe that free speech covers their hateful BS though just not any funeral protests.

[Korriken]

simply put, if one of the families would "go temporarily insane" and kill the protestors. that would put an end to it real quick.

[TheThing]

This is a tough one, but I have to agree with the judge.

While I find Westboro Baptist to be a bunch of bigoted assholes, they do have the right to protest what they want, where they want. As long as they aren't trespassing on private property (the cemetery/church), they should have the ability to express how they feel about the issue.

I mean, as far as I know, in the eyes of the law, a funeral is no different a ceremony than the opening of a public park.

[Warforger]

At 8/16/10 09:21 PM, Korriken wrote: simply put, if one of the families would "go temporarily insane" and kill the protestors. that would put an end to it real quick.

You think it hasn't happened? They're like the Muslim extremists you may keep killing them but they're not deterred and they might even favor you killing them so they go to heaven, even then its illegal and you'd still go to jail if the jury doesn't favor the defense. IIRC Fred Phelps said himself they've been attacked multiple times.

They're serious IRL trolls, hell Fred was talking about the Virginia Tech Massacre in his webisode or whatever, and he said something like "we wish 33,000 died and not just 33, but it is a sign from God punishing America for its tolerance of fags" or something like that.

[SloppyMoe606]

No. Those assholes at the Westboro Church don't deserve ANY rights. If you don't know, they say that Virginia Tech should've been 33,000 dead instead of 33, and that 9/11 was revenge against America for excepting gays.

They protest at MILITARY FUNERALS. PEOPLE WHO DIED TO PROTECT THEIR DAMN RIGHT OF FREE SPEACH. They say things at these funerals like, "Thank God for IEDS."

These people are incest psychos who don't deserve to live.

[LordZeebmork]

At 8/17/10 01:32 AM, SloppyMoe606 wrote: No. Those assholes at the Westboro Church don't deserve ANY rights.

First they came for the Westboro Baptist Church...

[Drakim]

At 8/17/10 01:32 AM, SloppyMoe606 wrote: No. Those assholes at the Westboro Church don't deserve ANY rights.

Look, by what mechanism are you gonna take away the rights of people? You can't just say "they shouldn't have rights". What law would you erect to take away the rights of humans? How would they function? When would they apply?

[Tony-DarkGrave]

its un-american protesting soldiers funerals who willingly gave there lives to protect our great country. these people should be arrested.

[Drakim]

At 8/17/10 07:58 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: its un-american protesting soldiers funerals who willingly gave there lives to protect our great country. these people should be arrested.

For what crime? On what charges?

[SadisticMonkey]

At 8/17/10 08:07 AM, Drakim wrote: For what crime? On what charges?

can't you read?

For being UNAMERICAN.

[Drakim]

At 8/17/10 08:31 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 8/17/10 08:07 AM, Drakim wrote: For what crime? On what charges?

can't you read?

For being UNAMERICAN.

oh noes D:

[HibiscusKazeneko]

At 8/16/10 10:01 PM, TheThing wrote: This is a tough one, but I have to agree with the judge.

While I find Westboro Baptist to be a bunch of bigoted assholes, they do have the right to protest what they want, where they want. As long as they aren't trespassing on private property (the cemetery/church), they should have the ability to express how they feel about the issue.

I mean, as far as I know, in the eyes of the law, a funeral is no different a ceremony than the opening of a public park.

My thoughts exactly.
About 65% of Christian churches these days are preaching that homosexuality is to blame for the decline in our morals as a nation, and if we ban Westboro Baptist Church from protesting, other churches will be up in arms. It's a lose-lose situation.

[WeHaveFreshCookies]

At 8/17/10 09:11 AM, HibiscusKazeneko wrote:

At 8/16/10 10:01 PM, TheThing wrote: This is a tough one, but I have to agree with the judge.

While I find Westboro Baptist to be a bunch of bigoted assholes, they do have the right to protest what they want, where they want. As long as they aren't trespassing on private property (the cemetery/church), they should have the ability to express how they feel about the issue.

I mean, as far as I know, in the eyes of the law, a funeral is no different a ceremony than the opening of a public park.

My thoughts exactly.
About 65% of Christian churches these days are preaching that homosexuality is to blame for the decline in our morals as a nation, and if we ban Westboro Baptist Church from protesting, other churches will be up in arms. It's a lose-lose situation.

Woah... That's a serious accusation that you're making and frankly, it isn't true. The Christian faith has complete tolerance for homosexuality. The verses that the Phelps use to justify their hatred are taken out of context, misquoted, and otherwise twisted to suit their pre-existing hate. For example, a verse in Isaiah that they frequently quote is not speaking of homosexuality as we know it today. It's speaking of the kind of homosexuality that involves man and child. Sexual assault. We can all agree with the bibles description of THESE kinds of homosexuals as "lower than human", can't we?

The Phelps' main point of attack however, is the Old Testament book of law, Leviticus. This IS a case where God clearly states that he doesn't like homosexualty. HOWEVER, in the very same chapter, he condems the use of certain fabrics. So how do Christians know which laws to carry over and which to consider obsolete? By looking at Jesus. Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. He spoke about loving everybody and putting others before oneself. So really, he didn't CARE about homosexuality. He never took a stance on it. Not because it wasn't around in his day, but because it really wasn't important.

As for the LAW'S stance on this issue, if you read the article, you'll see that the judge chose not to address the obvious controversy surrounding this. He struck down the law because it would encompass public property, such as streets and sidewalks. There's simply no situation where you want to do that. Once you go down that road, (no pun intended) whos to say when and where it stops? So yes. I have to say that I agree with the judge, although I'll bet this hits the supreme court.

[TheThing]

The problem with this case is that it's trying to regulate morality. It's seen as immoral to protest a funeral in general, let alone a soldier's funeral. But who are we to decide that? Westboro Baptist decided that it was okay to protest a funeral, as long as they were protesting against homosexuality.

Actually, in a way, the arguments in favor of gay marriage are protecting their right to protest it.

[Drakim]

At 8/17/10 01:12 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: Woah... That's a serious accusation that you're making and frankly, it isn't true. The Christian faith has complete tolerance for homosexuality.

hahaha
HAHAHAHA
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[HibiscusKazeneko]

At 8/17/10 01:12 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote:
Woah... That's a serious accusation that you're making and frankly, it isn't true. The Christian faith has complete tolerance for homosexuality.

Not where I'm from, it doesn't.
The vast majority of Christian churches in my area are militantly anti-gay, some even going so far to declare homosexuality to be demon possession and some pastors will even perform exorcisms.
It's somewhat to be expected, since the South and Southwestern United States are some of the most socially and politically conservative in the nation (as you probably know because of all the shit that's been flung around about Arizona) and homosexuality is simply not tolerated as well as it is in other parts of the country and the developed world. In high school I even heard a classmate (whose credibility was questionable at best) state he believed that we should execute gays like we did in "the old days."

[WeHaveFreshCookies]

At 8/17/10 04:07 PM, HibiscusKazeneko wrote:

At 8/17/10 01:12 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote:
Woah... That's a serious accusation that you're making and frankly, it isn't true. The Christian faith has complete tolerance for homosexuality.

Not where I'm from, it doesn't.
The vast majority of Christian churches in my area are militantly anti-gay, some even going so far to declare homosexuality to be demon possession and some pastors will even perform exorcisms.
It's somewhat to be expected, since the South and Southwestern United States are some of the most socially and politically conservative in the nation (as you probably know because of all the shit that's been flung around about Arizona) and homosexuality is simply not tolerated as well as it is in other parts of the country and the developed world. In high school I even heard a classmate (whose credibility was questionable at best) state he believed that we should execute gays like we did in "the old days."

It's sad that there are still people around that think that way, but as I pointed out, the Christian faith does not take that stance. These people do not take the same stance as their faith does. Christianity =/= Christians. Unfortunately, a great deal of people call themselves Christian, but don't actually behave like it. The word "Christian" means "Christ-Like". If you call yourself Christ-Like, but don't make any kind of effort to actually behave or treat people the way that Jesus did, are you really "Christ-Like" at all? I don't think so.

I'm not taking an active stance on the issue of religion. I have my opinion, but I'm not going to share it here. However, I think you should look at what the religion says. Christians aren't very tolerant, but that just means that they aren't following their own religion. I'm sure you could find a small number of people that are "true" Christians. But I digress. This isn't really about religion. It's about law.

I think that SOMETHING needs to be done to protect the families of soldiers. There's not much to be done about their picketing, but harassing people at the funeral of a loved one is repulsive and disgusting. I'm not sure how one would go about it though. Treating it as a hate crime would take some tricky legal maneuvering. Harassment is also a possibility, but it wouldn't really do much, as that's a misdemeanor, I believe. It's hard to restrict speech in law, because the right to free speech is a minefield. Whatever DOES happen, the best thing to do is obviously to ignore the group altogether. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.

[Warforger]

At 8/17/10 08:25 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: Christianity =/= Christians

IIRC Christianity was never worshiped the way the Bible says according to nearly all Christian scholars.

[WeHaveFreshCookies]

At 8/17/10 08:32 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 8/17/10 08:25 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: Christianity =/= Christians

IIRC Christianity was never worshiped the way the Bible says according to nearly all Christian scholars.

Link pl0x

The book of Acts is actually a rough instruction manual for the Christian church.

But on some level, I agree with that. Christianity is like communism. It's amazing on paper, but in the end, human corruption ruins it.

[Proteas]

At 8/16/10 10:01 PM, TheThing wrote: I mean, as far as I know, in the eyes of the law, a funeral is no different a ceremony than the opening of a public park.

Except that in the case of opening a public park, it's a public ceremony that the general public is invited to attend. A funeral is generally considered a private ceremony that is not open-invite, and while not on the funeral grounds itself, Phelps' intention is to protest and harass or cause grief to the individuals in the funeral.

So I'm going to have to say that, no, this should not be protected free speech. We don't allow people to call us up at home every night trying to sell us shit we don't want to by, we don't allow

At 8/17/10 01:15 AM, Warforger wrote: You think it hasn't happened? They're like the Muslim extremists you may keep killing them but they're not deterred and they might even favor you killing them so they go to heaven, even then its illegal and you'd still go to jail if the jury doesn't favor the defense. IIRC Fred Phelps said himself they've been attacked multiple times.

Unlike Islam, Christianity does not have a tenet stating that you will go directly to Heaven if killed while doing the Lord's work.

At 8/17/10 01:36 PM, Drakim wrote:

At 8/17/10 01:12 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: Woah... That's a serious accusation that you're making and frankly, it isn't true. The Christian faith has complete tolerance for homosexuality.

hahaha
HAHAHAHA
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAA
GAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

To borrow from something I said in a previous topic; there's an estimated 240 Million self-identified Christians in a country of 309 Million people... if we were all this nuts do you not think for a second we wouldn't have rounded up all gay people concentration-camp style and forced them to convert back to heterosexuality gay-camp style?

At 8/17/10 04:07 PM, HibiscusKazeneko wrote: Not where I'm from, it doesn't.

Japan is very noted in it's hatred of homosexuality, now that you mention it.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 8/18/10 08:15 AM, Proteas wrote: We don't allow people to call us up at home every night trying to sell us shit we don't want to by,

because it involves private property...

[Drakim]

At 8/17/10 01:36 PM, Drakim wrote:

At 8/17/10 01:12 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: Woah... That's a serious accusation that you're making and frankly, it isn't true. The Christian faith has complete tolerance for homosexuality.

hahaha
HAHAHAHA
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAA
GAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

To borrow from something I said in a previous topic; there's an estimated 240 Million self-identified Christians in a country of 309 Million people... if we were all this nuts do you not think for a second we wouldn't have rounded up all gay people concentration-camp style and forced them to convert back to heterosexuality gay-camp style?

No, I get that, it's just that....the thing is that there are no other big groups. Jews make up what, zero point something of the population? Neo Nazis make up what, zero point zero something of the population? There is nobody else that causes intolerance against homosexual at large.

Like, imagine if the group in society called Christianity was dissolved and went into all other groups in society and adopted their world-views in such a way so that the ratio between these groups stayed the same. If that happened, gay people would be safer walking around the streets late at night. They would be less likely to get beaten up and killed. Gay people would face less discrimination in the workplace.

You can point to tons of great Christian communities that are accepting towards gays, and that's wonderful. But "Christianity" as a whole is a negative force on the issue of homosexuality. If gay accepting Christian communities stopped existing gay people would at large have it worse. But the very discrimination that these liberal Christian communities are fighting against comes from other branches of Christianity. If neither existed the problem wouldn't have existed in the first place! (at such a large scale)

It's like, imagine if some kid finds out he is gay. He is teased in school and the teachers aren't really doing anything about it. Do you right off the bat think that his situation will more likely be worse or better if he has Christian parents, compared to non-Christian parents? Come on, be honest.

[Proteas]

At 8/18/10 08:53 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: because it involves private property...

Is a cemetary not private property?

The point being that your right to free speech ends when you start harassing people. We have laws against criminal harassment, that's what Phelps and his group's activities should fall under.

At 8/18/10 09:30 AM, Drakim wrote: There is nobody else that causes intolerance against homosexual at large.

Except those occasional nutcases that make their way onto the evening news... like Fred Phelps and his bunch. By and large, if all Christians in America were as militantly intollerant and extreme in their views of Christianity as these bunch, there wouldn't be any homosexuals in this nation. It would be like Iran; a theocratic dictatorship where anyone who is so much as suspected to be homosexual is taken out into the street and killed viciously.

If that happened, gay people would be safer walking around the streets late at night. They would be less likely to get beaten up and killed.

And these things happen how often?

Oh that's right, not very often. According to the FBI, there were a grand total of 2,277 assaults (either aggravated or simple) that could be labeled as "hate crimes," with only 7 murders. That's all the recorded hate crimes in that nation for that year, encompassing all races, creed, ethnicities, and sex. And an estimated 16% of those crimes are said to be against homosexuals.

So let's break that down, shall we? That's 364 assaults (33 being aggravated, the rest simple) and 1 murder committed against people who were homosexual. Nation-wide. click and click.

So I ask again, and MAYBE I'll get an answer this time; if the 240 million self identified Christians in this nation were as militantly nuts as Fred Phelps and the like, wouldn't it stand to reason that crimes against homosexuals would be... oh.. I don't know.... FUCKING ASTRONOMICAL? Or is this simply another case of anti-religious bigots talking out of their ass yet again?

Gay people would face less discrimination in the workplace.

The only statistic I can find on this is one from a pro-lgbt site that states over 39% of said workers have been "discriminated against" for their sexuality. I consider this statistic suspect given the fact that it does not detail what the discrimination entails, or how many workers are included in this study. But given the minuscule nature of crimes against homosexuals... I'm kind of doubting this one.

If neither existed the problem wouldn't have existed in the first place! (at such a large scale)

Go smoke some pot, eat some Funyuns, and listen to John Lennon's "Imagine" a few more times. Maybe it will make a difference in the world.

[Drakim]

At 8/18/10 12:38 PM, Proteas wrote: ....

Hey, Proteas, you are a great poster but your reply now was pretty off the mark. If I allow myself to paraphrase our conversation:

Drakim: There is nobody else that causes intolerance against homosexual at large.
Proteas: There are nutcases and if America really hated gays they would be killed off instantly.

Drakim: If the Christianity of today in America disappeared the intolerance against gay would lessen.
Proteas: Gay people don't get killed often in America, it's super rare.

Drakim: Gay people would face less discrimination in the workplace.
Proteas: I don't trust the source I googled just now about how much discrimination there is in the workplace.

If you read these things, you'll see that you aren't actually responding to me at all. You are talking about entirely different things! So, to avoid derailing our conversation I'm not going to respond to your points (which were mostly good and valid)

[Proteas]

At 8/18/10 12:58 PM, Drakim wrote: Drakim: There is nobody else that causes intolerance against homosexual at large.
Proteas: There are nutcases and if America really hated gays they would be killed off instantly.

And? You made a vague statement that could not be logically defended, I presented a specific statement along with supporting evidence. The only people committing crimes against gays or disseminating violently homophobic rhetoric among the general population are, by and large, a minute portion of the populace, both in number of offenders and motivations. Their beliefs and actions do not reflect the rest of the faith IF the can even be shown to be caused by extremist faith.

Drakim: If the Christianity of today in America disappeared the intolerance against gay would lessen.
Proteas: Gay people don't get killed often in America, it's super rare.

Because by and large, it is. Americans (and by extension, Christians) by and large are fairly tolerable of homosexuality to the point that crimes against homosexuals are almost statistically insignificant. Yeah, they happen, but not anywhere near as often as you claim them to.

In fact, I'd wager a guess that your average homosexual is more likely to be involved in a non hate-crime crime as they are to be involved in one.

Drakim: Gay people would face less discrimination in the workplace.
Proteas: I don't trust the source I googled just now about how much discrimination there is in the workplace.

Because they didn't give specifics about it, it was more written as a talking points thing for people to throw around about the subject. Here, take a look for yourself.

[Drakim]

At 8/18/10 01:58 PM, Proteas wrote:

At 8/18/10 12:58 PM, Drakim wrote: Drakim: There is nobody else that causes intolerance against homosexual at large.
Proteas: There are nutcases and if America really hated gays they would be killed off instantly.

And? You made a vague statement that could not be logically defended, I presented a specific statement along with supporting evidence.

Which did not talk about the same issue as I was talking about. I was talking about how there is no big mean enemy that Christians can fight against to help gays other than Christianity itself.

You, on the other hand, basically argued "there will always be nutcases in all religions and Christianity is pretty tolerant of gay people, look, they haven't murdered them all" which is different issues entirely.

The only people committing crimes against gays or disseminating violently homophobic rhetoric among the general population are, by and large, a minute portion of the populace, both in number of offenders and motivations.

This is true, but I was addressing more than just crimes. Few Christians are so deep seated in their hate and fantatism that they would outright try to murder a gay person. But when it comes to softer issues, like who gets hired at the workplace, which family members do I treat with respect, which people in society should have less rights, etc... the group doesn't become such a nutty minority anymore.

Their beliefs and actions do not reflect the rest of the faith IF the can even be shown to be caused by extremist faith.

Look, you are treating my argument as if I was from the start saying "a few nutty Christian stain everybody else" when in reality I'm talking about Christianity at large. Christianity has historically NOT accepted gay people in any way, shape or form. That is a very very new phenomena that is luckily growing larger and larger.

But don't try to pretend that the discrimination gays have faced in the west the last hundred years came about because of a few nutty Christians. You are dishonestly trying to whitewash Christianity of history.

[Proteas]

At 8/18/10 02:45 PM, Drakim wrote: I was talking about how there is no big mean enemy that Christians can fight against to help gays other than Christianity itself.

And then you laced it with this whole ideal-world bullshit where there was no religion and we all sang kum-by-yah and danced around the campfire. Your solution is unrealistic and does not help the situation.

You, on the other hand, basically argued "there will always be nutcases in all religions and Christianity is pretty tolerant of gay people, look, they haven't murdered them all" which is different issues entirely.

This is a topic about Fred Phelps, remember? And you're the one who brought up the issue of assaults and murders against homosexuals, I just showed you that it wasn't as common as you were painting it to be.

But when it comes to softer issues, like who gets hired at the workplace, which family members do I treat with respect, which people in society should have less rights, etc... the group doesn't become such a nutty minority anymore.

Prove it, then.

The onus is on you to provide proof of your statements when asked for, I'm just curious to see how often this actually happens. Assuming you can find supporting evidence.

But don't try to pretend that the discrimination gays have faced in the west the last hundred years came about because of a few nutty Christians. You are dishonestly trying to whitewash Christianity of history.

I'm not pretending or attempting to whitewash anything. But by the same measure, I'm not pinning all the discrimination homosexuals face or have faced on Christianity, either.

[Drakim]

So, uhm, I fell of my bike and might have broken my arm, not quite sure yet. Typing this is hard lol. Your reply will be delayed.

[TheThing]

At 8/18/10 08:15 AM, Proteas wrote:

At 8/16/10 10:01 PM, TheThing wrote: I mean, as far as I know, in the eyes of the law, a funeral is no different a ceremony than the opening of a public park.

Except that in the case of opening a public park, it's a public ceremony that the general public is invited to attend. A funeral is generally considered a private ceremony that is not open-invite, and while not on the funeral grounds itself, Phelps' intention is to protest and harass or cause grief to the individuals in the funeral.

Fine, it's no different than the opening ceremony of an abortion clinic, or a Starbucks, or something else objectionable and private. A ceremony is a ceremony in the eyes of the law. And you may say the intentions of the protesters is to harass and cause further grief, but they will say it is to protest the acceptance of gays in America, and this is the most effective way to get that message across.

So I'm going to have to say that, no, this should not be protected free speech. We don't allow people to call us up at home every night trying to sell us shit we don't want to by, we don't allow

But these people are on public property, which means they have the ability to assemble and to express whatever views they want, where ever they want. As long as they don't impede the procession or trespass, they can protest.