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I think i've commented on something of this nature posted by someone else. Still it's the same issue and it keeps popping up. I don't see the big deal personally but if I lived in New York or had lost a close relative that day then I would be opposed to the idea. It's a very edgy thing to try and implement only nine years after the incident with the world trade centers. Hopefully for the sake of the people there it won't be built since more bloodshed might come of it.

At 8/14/10 02:08 AM, Monocrom wrote:

At 8/13/10 11:29 PM, Powerage wrote: few things you ought to know.

1. it's not a mosque, the Cordoba Initiative is a community center, and it's two blocks away from the ground zero site. it will have nice things like a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants, basically a muslim version of the YMCA.

2. there is already a mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero. it's been there since 1970.

3. the man behind the center, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is a moderate, pro-western, and he's opposed to the use of violence. more on him here..

4. what about themuslim victims of 9/11?

it really shouldn't be seen as a gigantic slap in the face to the victims of 9/11, unless you happen to think that a ragtag group of religious extremists armed with box cutters represent Islam as a whole.

1 ~ It's a mosque.

It's not just one. What he's saying is true.

2 ~ Huge difference between an existing structure that has been around decades before 9/11 vs. one being built now, that close to Ground Zero.

The current mosque is only about two blocks away from the planned Cordoba House. Compare the addresses, if you have to.

3 ~ In that case, he should understand the anger many New Yorkers feel about it. It is an obscene act to build a mosque that close to Ground Zero.

*Sigh*
This mosque, or community centre, rather, isn't supporting Al-Qaeda. The place is about peace, tolerance, etc. I'd like to know how many New Yorkers in the sample polls know that and even know that it's not just a mosque. Sample polls are argumentum ad populum.

4 ~ Yes, there were muslim victims during 9/11. Many of them worked in the restaurants located at the site of the terrorist attack. And the terrorists knew that muslims worked there. They didn't care about their own kind. Then again, as extremists, they likely considered them to be traitors to Allah.

Islam has been hijacked by the extremists. Other muslims have been rendered mute. Not one muslim holy leader has spoken out against the extremists in an open and strong manner.

Then how come I can find, for example, information that top Muslim organizations condemned 9/11 and gave assistance to its victims? Are you suggesting terrorists make up more than half of all Muslims? It's clearly way less than that.

I think the key would have been to set measures immediately after 9/11 so mosques could not be built within a certain radius. I actually would have not been surprised if something was already set so Muslims couldn't do something like this. Maybe too late now to fight it :-(

beats another american appearl

No.

I'm saying that since non-extremist Muslim leaders are not speaking up against the murderous thugs who have taken over Islam, their silence speaks volumns. As the old saying goes, "The only thing required for evil to win, is for good men to do nothing."

Well, the non-extremist Muslim leaders are doing just that. Nothing! They are not even vocally standing up to the murderers who have taken control of their religion.

Also, if the "structure" near Ground Zero is supposed to be about Peace, Understanding, and Tolerance; then why does it have to a mosque? (Or at least partly so, as you have admitted it is.)

Let it be a non-religious, non-holy, place that indeed promotes tolerance and all that other good stuff. That way, it's not going to be something that symbolizes spitting on the merory of the victims of 9/11.

At 8/15/10 03:06 AM, mrgreg846 wrote: I think the key would have been to set measures immediately after 9/11 so mosques could not be built within a certain radius. I actually would have not been surprised if something was already set so Muslims couldn't do something like this. Maybe too late now to fight it :-(

We must show those people who attack us and who have no religious freedom in their country by starting wars in random middle-eastern countries (killing many innocent civilians, when we know that there are only around 100 terrorists in Afghanistan less, if any, in Iraq), and also destroy the first amendment!

At 8/15/10 04:39 AM, Monocrom wrote: Also, if the "structure" near Ground Zero is supposed to be about Peace, Understanding, and Tolerance; then why does it have to a mosque? (Or at least partly so, as you have admitted it is.)

MOSQUES ARE NOT ABOUT VIOLENCE!! IT"S A CHURCH!

Are you saying, that a muslim church is incapable of being about these things? That's horseshit, and conjecture.

At 8/15/10 04:39 AM, Monocrom wrote: No.

I'm saying that since non-extremist Muslim leaders are not speaking up against the murderous thugs who have taken over Islam, their silence speaks volumns. As the old saying goes, "The only thing required for evil to win, is for good men to do nothing."

Well, the non-extremist Muslim leaders are doing just that. Nothing! They are not even vocally standing up to the murderers who have taken control of their religion.

I'm sorry to have to keep harping on this, but that is utter bullshit. I can name dozens of Muslim leaders who have denounced terrorism as against Islam. Link. The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia is about as close as you're going to get to a singular authority over Islam.

No one has "taken over" Islam. You act like all Muslims are unified in the terrorism. Most Muslims know nothing about it, and frankly, it isn't their problem. Does being a Catholic and not actively opposing the IRA make one a terrorist? NO. Terrorism is not the responsibility of Islam, and the fact that many leading Muslims have condemned it is a testament to their desire for peace and harmony in the world.

Also, if the "structure" near Ground Zero is supposed to be about Peace, Understanding, and Tolerance; then why does it have to a mosque? (Or at least partly so, as you have admitted it is.)

Let it be a non-religious, non-holy, place that indeed promotes tolerance and all that other good stuff. That way, it's not going to be something that symbolizes spitting on the memory of the victims of 9/11.

Mosques are places of contemplation, prayer, and spirituality. For centuries, Mosques have also maintained hospitals, schools, and recreation areas. They have status as non-profits. For a Muslim, it's simply natural to include a place of worship alongside a community center.

But more importantly, you speak as if this place is going to be built on Ground Zero. It's being built in Lower Manhattan, an area with thousands of people and hundreds of buildings, very few of which have anything to do with 9/11. The Cordoba Center has absolutely nothing to do with it. It was designed and planned starting in the nineties. It isn't a symbol, it isn't a monument to 9/11, it isn't some kind of bandstand for people who hate America. It's just a community center with a chapel.

Here is my underlying point, and one that I wish many people would get into their heads: Islam as a whole has absolutely jack shit to do with what happened on September 11th, 2001. Protesting the Cordoba Center is simply raising a straw man.

At 8/15/10 04:39 AM, Monocrom wrote: No.

I'm saying that since non-extremist Muslim leaders are not speaking up against the murderous thugs who have taken over Islam, their silence speaks volumns. As the old saying goes, "The only thing required for evil to win, is for good men to do nothing."

Well, the non-extremist Muslim leaders are doing just that. Nothing! They are not even vocally standing up to the murderers who have taken control of their religion.

How do you even know that? Just because you haven't heard doesn't mean it hasn't happened. How can a tiny group of terrorists just take over a religion? We might as well fear every Muslim walking around and protest every mosque because Islam is being used by terrorists to justify their actions.

At 8/15/10 01:46 PM, ProMotionProductions wrote:

At 8/15/10 04:39 AM, Monocrom wrote: Also, if the "structure" near Ground Zero is supposed to be about Peace, Understanding, and Tolerance; then why does it have to a mosque? (Or at least partly so, as you have admitted it is.)

MOSQUES ARE NOT ABOUT VIOLENCE!! IT"S A CHURCH!

Are you saying, that a muslim church is incapable of being about these things? That's horseshit, and conjecture.

Exactly.

Yeah, that's like building a church in Norway. What a slap in the face of all those practicing heathen religions. First you kill them for not being christian, then you build a fucking church there? What a fucking shame.

I feel for you. I feel for you because you take something like this as a slap in the face. Oh, they probably did it solely to piss off the victims' families.

Agree with the op completely, this is a huge slap in the face to all Americans. The Arab world is filled with nothing but hypocrites... I wonder how they would react if we were to build a church or a Walmart right on top of their most holy of sights... and yet they whine and bitch about how we should allow their fuckin mosques... all such undeserving pieces of shit.

I agree that it is at the very least insensitive but its got presedential approval (or so i've heard) so what exactly can people do about it except resorting to violence which in turn would make you no better than what your protesting about.

ITT: People who think that Muslims are building a Muslim Community Center just to piss off America, even though it was being planned 11 FUCKING YEARS before 9/11, and is meant to be a place where anybody, even people who aren't Muslims, can go to hang out.

So what your saying is that Osama Bin laden casted the magic spell Foresight, and looked 11 years into the future, and saw that he was destined to blow up the towers, and immediately started planning the construction of the church?

OP is damn right...

There are a hundred better places to do this...
Could they just... avoid all this shit and build it somewhere else?...

It'll be firebombed by skinheads the moment it opens tbh.

Not that I'm condoning such behaviour, but it's an incredibly silly idea to put a mosque there.

yes, lets persecute an entire group of people based on the actions of a few people.

I read about that in the paper I was like "wait what"

At 8/15/10 12:56 AM, Warforger wrote: Fun Fact: Mosque's are an Orthodox Christian invention which was adopted by Muslims.

Nope
Both religions developed pretty much separately from each other, mosque's are directly referenced in the Qur'an and Mohammed told of it himself.

At 8/15/10 05:38 PM, TheSporkLord wrote: yes, lets persecute an entire group of people based on the actions of a few people.

That sounds like a great idea!
let's start with Americans because they invented McDonald's!

Anyway...

The whole idea is kind of stupid. Why build it there? Not that all Muslims have something to do with the events of the WTC... But why build it there? It's just the worst possible idea. There are thousands of places where it could be built, but no, they choose to thake a place like this...

Why not just avoid all the controversy and build it somewhere else?

At 8/15/10 06:22 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Anyway...

The whole idea is kind of stupid. Why build it there? Not that all Muslims have something to do with the events of the WTC... But why build it there? It's just the worst possible idea. There are thousands of places where it could be built, but no, they choose to thake a place like this...

I do feel for the victims and families. The loss of someone in that manner would just be terrible. Thing is though is that some of the families need to get on with their lives. People die all the time, dwelling on it for years doesn't help.

I mean say a man with brown hair killed my parents. Does that mean I should hate every other human being with brown hair? No. People need to understand that the people that started the whole thing are no longer a threat.

That may sound terribly negative but it's true.

Why not just avoid all the controversy and build it somewhere else?

Convenience, should someone have to travel how far away to practice a religion?

If Islam is a violent religon, then what the hell does this verse from the Qur'an mean?

"So We decreed for the tribe of Israel that if someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth." (Surat al-Maida: 32)

So essentially adding a swimming pool, a book store etc to a small place of warship is the equivalent of building a mosque on ground zero. People are so stupid.

At 8/15/10 06:46 PM, Cochises wrote:
"So We decreed for the tribe of Israel that if someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth." (Surat al-Maida: 32)

You know your stuff sir! Im glad you quoted that lol Its nice having someone here whos muslim and has read the quran :D

I think it will be a wonderful asset to the community," said committee Chairman Ro Sheffe.

I think it will be a wonderful slap in the face to the community.

You silly Muslims.

It wasnt just islamic extremists it was Larry Silverstein who donated money to Islamic terrorist groups in exchange for the bringing down of the towers. So it was the Jews.

Isn't there already a place of worship there? Like, since before 9/11. They didn't pick the location thinking "Gee! This place dangerously close to the site of a muslim terrorist attack is a great place for a Muslim community center!" It was already there. They are simply expanding on it.

They are adding an offensive art exhibit, a disrespectful recreation area, a slap-in-the-face swimming pool and a book store that makes the dead roll over in their grave.

give them a taste of their own muslim medicine... blow it up

At 8/15/10 01:46 PM, ProMotionProductions wrote:

At 8/15/10 04:39 AM, Monocrom wrote: Also, if the "structure" near Ground Zero is supposed to be about Peace, Understanding, and Tolerance; then why does it have to a mosque? (Or at least partly so, as you have admitted it is.)

MOSQUES ARE NOT ABOUT VIOLENCE!! IT"S A CHURCH!

Are you saying, that a muslim church is incapable of being about these things? That's horseshit, and conjecture.

No, it's not a church. Churches are not breeding grounds for Islamic extremists. Everyone knows that the radicals use mosques for recruitment purposes. But because of political correctness, many don't have the balls to come out and say so.

Not too long ago, a businessman went into a mosque because he too believed that it was the same as a church. While there, he bought a couple of VHS tapes that were being sold openly inside the mosque. Thinking they were just spiritual tapes, imagine his surprise when one of them turned out to be a tape showing a young muslim mother singing to her little girl about why she (the mother) decided to become a suicide bomber. At the end of the tape, you see the young mother going off to "do her duty," While her little girl sings that she understands why her mother is doing it. The businessman turned the tape over to the news media and the FBI. As of today, FBI did nothing about the tape, and only a couple of the major news outlets even bothered to run the story.

Church my ass! When was the last time you found shit like that being sold openly in a church?!

If you want to play pretend, go ahead. Everyone knows what goes on inside a mosque.