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At 8/11/10 02:21 PM, satanbrain wrote:

At 8/11/10 01:00 PM, DJManifest wrote: Some people continue to do so as we speak, but the only way to fix this would be to stop and think about consequences of this lifestyle (Something the people at the bottom of the ladder don't have time to do and the people at the top don't don't have the desire to do)

the only way to fix this is rooting out the problem. mankind.

I love when people talk about humanity and leave themselves out like they don't count... they are always the most surprised when they are harmed too. IF humanity was to be "rooted out" you and I would be going with them. So why not work on solutions to pass the time?

At 8/11/10 08:12 PM, andy16 wrote:

At 8/10/10 11:08 PM, DJManifest wrote:

At 8/10/10 09:44 PM, andy16 wrote:

If i can take the example that has been repeatedly publicized in the media of people that live of benifites and don't work at all, then it would seem that there would be a consideralbe number of individuals how would just not work.

This is true, and I will tell you right now that I'm just an average dude with no in depth knowledge of something as complex as the economy (not to mention that Desteni Moneys proposal would involve many more aspects of our society than simply the economy), all I'm saying is that if we tried to disperse some of the ridiculous amounts of wealth from the top of this pyramid to the people at the bottom who are making a serious effort to hold it up we might achieve something close to equality while still maintaining a comfortable lifestyle for everyone who wishes to participate.

Many trades done by people in lower class jobs are highly skilled, this includes farming, you need to know how to handel farming equipment as well as know when to plant your crop, to name just a few. If you have to look after a herd of cattel you would have to do that everyday, else the cows strave, they would also need to be milked everyday.
If your looking for other examples think a plummer or an electrican, rewireing a house would not be some thing you could learn out of a book.

I didn't communicate clearly when I said "You may need to do these things yourself"... I did not mean that each individual would need to know how to do EVERYTHING. I meant that an individual would need to learn to do MORE things that they're interested in, and be willing to share their skills with others.

When you say small clans do you mean like local goverment?

Yes, a small group of people with a shared interest in existing comfortably. A group such as this would naturally produce some sort of governing body. The difference is that these "governers" would be face to face with the people under their care and might be a little less inclined to take too much from the community.

Without goverment how maintain law and order, or decide what the law actaully is?

Humans have established governments since the stone age, In this case the government would hold authority over a smaller population (You also wouldn't need different levels of government, each with more power than the level below it)

If it's decided by the people you would have to have somebody to lead and organise them, wouldn't someone need to be incharge to be able to respond effectively to an emergency, for instance, to pull reasource in from accross a region?

We don't have such a leader even now, our government is unable to respond effectively to the needs of an individual because there are too many individuals under one governing body.

Also these people would have to be well informed on the deisions there taking, and as goverment ministers are constantly debating topics, and often publish/read reports that are sometimes hundreds of pages long, it would need to a full time job so that they could look at all the evidence?

There are too many topics for one government to deal with, the act of debating a few of them is simply a crowd pleaser.

Also another question, where would this money your giving to everyone come from? You can't just print money else you get hyper inflation, if it keeps on being printed year after year it would ultimately become worthless and it can't/isn't raised by taxation.

This money would come from the top, it would come from the wealthy and that is ultimately why I don't believe Desteni Moneys proposal would work, because the wealthy can and will simply say "no, it's a ludicrous request because of this and that"...

All money has to be base on something, even if it jsut the ecomony in general.

From what I know about money, it began as a simple IOU for work done, then over the years its become so complex that most don't even understand why it holds value.

Also whats to stop people trading the money there given for money that is used to buy luxurys goods on the black market, or the goods themselves?

I really don't know, those kind of things would depend on the person you're talking about. It's simple to dish out reasons why this wouldn't work, or "what ifs"... but seriously try to think of a way to make it happen, hell, you might even draw in experts on the subject... what else you got to do for the few minutes you're browsing forums?

At 8/12/10 12:49 AM, DJManifest wrote: I love when people talk about humanity and leave themselves out like they don't count... they are always the most surprised when they are harmed too. IF humanity was to be "rooted out" you and I would be going with them. So why not work on solutions to pass the time?

if i die then there will be no one left to do the job right? after everyone is dead, i will have no interest in surviving and likely die.

At 8/12/10 01:43 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 8/12/10 12:49 AM, DJManifest wrote: I love when people talk about humanity and leave themselves out like they don't count... they are always the most surprised when they are harmed too. IF humanity was to be "rooted out" you and I would be going with them. So why not work on solutions to pass the time?

if i die then there will be no one left to do the job right? after everyone is dead, i will have no interest in surviving and likely die.

If you die BEFORE everyone else you would achieve the same result, you obviously don't want to cease existing or you would have done so already.

Quit being a troll, grow some balls, and voice your actual opinion if you're going to bother speaking at all. And if you're being serious you should probably just pretend you're trolling because you're making a very poor impression.

At least its a solution. If people keep standing around saying things like "well, not the greatest idea" then you may as well grab a fucking shovel and help dig the hole we are in even deeper.

...this is a soulution? Perhaps it's more like saying "we can reinvent the wheel and make it better by adding four flat surfaces connected by 90 degree angles along it's edge."

Ok, it's an idea, and who can fault someone for wanting to dream up the cure-all scheme to rehabilitate the world, but this thing probably makes more sense if you're huffing ether during an acid trip.

Setting aside for a moment the wonderous 'dual monetary system', the 'Yay! everyone is equal' banner on this 'solution' is just another way of saying, "why yes, we do enjoy our communism." Let's put them on an island and see how long Jimmy-DoAll enjoys working his fingers to the bone for the dubious honor of being touted 'equal to' Larry-LazyPants, the town sponge that doesn't lift a finger, but does enjoy that same honored title along side his comrade.

Now, whether it be based on cold, hard cash-ola or deeds-for-needs, no one likes getting less for doing more with nothing else than a pat on the back and the notion of being a good citizen. If we have one currency that won't work, adding one more on top of it, used just for big, shiny, pretty things won't cut it either.

Oh, but it will make for a wonderful new bunch of government and government workers to oversee and tell us just how great we're all doing for the good of our society.

Let's get back to the banner -- equality. Yes, Jimmy Do-All you've used your luxury money wisely and bought a pool for your kids and a diamond for the girl you'll marry, but Larry over here doesn't have that such stuff. How can we all be equal, now?

Are you picking up what I'm throwing down, here folks? This shit is bunk.

At 8/12/10 02:35 AM, Tenpenny69 wrote: So is this building upon the idea of communism ?

absolutely. We're all equal and no one is better than anyone else and all work to support everyone. That's it in a nutshell, kinda even sounds good on paper-- maybe even warm and fuzzies in the heart. ...BUT, if you have something someone else doesn't, we can't all be equal anymore, so what then becomes the magic word? Can we say 'redistribution?'

At 8/12/10 02:25 AM, magicsalt wrote:

At least its a solution. If people keep standing around saying things like "well, not the greatest idea" then you may as well grab a fucking shovel and help dig the hole we are in even deeper.

...this is a soulution? Perhaps it's more like saying "we can reinvent the wheel and make it better by adding four flat surfaces connected by 90 degree angles along it's edge."

Ok, it's an idea, and who can fault someone for wanting to dream up the cure-all scheme to rehabilitate the world, but this thing probably makes more sense if you're huffing ether during an acid trip.

Setting aside for a moment the wonderous 'dual monetary system', the 'Yay! everyone is equal' banner on this 'solution' is just another way of saying, "why yes, we do enjoy our communism." Let's put them on an island and see how long Jimmy-DoAll enjoys working his fingers to the bone for the dubious honor of being touted 'equal to' Larry-LazyPants, the town sponge that doesn't lift a finger, but does enjoy that same honored title along side his comrade.

Now, whether it be based on cold, hard cash-ola or deeds-for-needs, no one likes getting less for doing more with nothing else than a pat on the back and the notion of being a good citizen. If we have one currency that won't work, adding one more on top of it, used just for big, shiny, pretty things won't cut it either.

Oh, but it will make for a wonderful new bunch of government and government workers to oversee and tell us just how great we're all doing for the good of our society.

Let's get back to the banner -- equality. Yes, Jimmy Do-All you've used your luxury money wisely and bought a pool for your kids and a diamond for the girl you'll marry, but Larry over here doesn't have that such stuff. How can we all be equal, now?

Are you picking up what I'm throwing down, here folks? This shit is bunk.

There is no solution in their proposal... I think what Maru is trying to say is that you've got an idea here and all he sees is people trying to debunk that idea instead of improve it.

The response to the above will no doubt be "There is no way to improve it or work out a solution because it sucks because of this and because of that"

It is easier to sound professional when you're proving something wrong. But no one here claims to be an expert so just discuss ways something CLOSE to this could work, quit pointing to their proposal and saying "NUH UH"... Their proposal is irrelevant, it can be changed and if you can think of a way to modify it or adapt it to better suit your own ideas then do it.

It is easier to sound professional when you're proving something wrong. But no one here claims to be an expert so just discuss ways something CLOSE to this could work, quit pointing to their proposal and saying "NUH UH"... Their proposal is irrelevant, it can be changed and if you can think of a way to modify it or adapt it to better suit your own ideas then do it.

I'd modify it by taking out the two monetary systems, and removing the underlying communist practice and rid the population of the redundant government needed to operate such a whale. Less government is better. Fewer organizations taking my money for thier taxes and telling me how to spend what little I keep. I think, that's where I'd start with this one.

I am to lazy to read up on this organization.

It sounds like they are trying to make an Utopian Society. Obviously they haven;t read Utopia by Thomas Moore. At the end of the book the society collapses. ( I might be incorrect.... i read this along time ago).

A society based on what they are aiming lacks the ambition, drive, and mere humanity that our society has. How can we live a life where every thing is just handed to us.

Also even if we did create this society and every one had equal share of every thing, Man would find some way to benefit further. Causing once more for an abrupt change in society.

If we can live in the society we already have without trying to kill each other why change it.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

At 8/12/10 02:16 AM, DJManifest wrote:

At 8/12/10 01:43 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 8/12/10 12:49 AM, DJManifest wrote: I love when people talk about humanity and leave themselves out like they don't count... they are always the most surprised when they are harmed too. IF humanity was to be "rooted out" you and I would be going with them. So why not work on solutions to pass the time?

if i die then there will be no one left to do the job right? after everyone is dead, i will have no interest in surviving and likely die.

If you die BEFORE everyone else you would achieve the same result, you obviously don't want to cease existing or you would have done so already.

no i won't, i want to be sure of the result. the present humans will die but they will obviously breed and then new humans will exist. Now i don't want to cease existing because i have reason to live, but when i'll have no reason i will die.

At 8/12/10 02:56 AM, magicsalt wrote:

It is easier to sound professional when you're proving something wrong. But no one here claims to be an expert so just discuss ways something CLOSE to this could work, quit pointing to their proposal and saying "NUH UH"... Their proposal is irrelevant, it can be changed and if you can think of a way to modify it or adapt it to better suit your own ideas then do it.

I'd modify it by taking out the two monetary systems, and removing the underlying communist practice and rid the population of the redundant government needed to operate such a whale. Less government is better. Fewer organizations taking my money for thier taxes and telling me how to spend what little I keep. I think, that's where I'd start with this one.

That's really good, Another problem would be religion, it poses a HUGE obstacle when talking about equality. The only way around that one would be to convince leaders of major religions that they are all essentially worshiping the same god (Easy to say, near impossible to make happen) and that god is really only interested in seeing if they can get along with their fellow man...

Now the problem with THAT is religious folk would want proof (oddly enough) that their god wants them to do this as opposed to killing or converting each other.

Convincing the figureheads and having them relay the message to their followers might work, or it might cause a further splintering among followers, depending on what the majority are ready or willing to believe...

At 8/12/10 03:30 AM, satanbrain wrote:

no i won't, i want to be sure of the result. the present humans will die but they will obviously breed and then new humans will exist. Now i don't want to cease existing because i have reason to live, but when i'll have no reason i will die.

^People like this would pose a problem also. They don't really debunk or improve but they still talk a lot.

I think one of the problems of desteni money's arguements, strangly, is that it actually exists in a rather diluted form.
Take England for example, if you have a family of two adults and two young children living togeather, and nobody is working they are entitled to quite a lot, £11,000 a year between them (where the average salery in the uk is about £22,000) as well as a free concil house (approximatly £10,000). I know this is far from luxery but you wouldn't starve.
On the other hand anybody earning over £150,000 a year is subject to 50% income tax, not to mention 17.5% vat on luxury goods, national health insurance, capital gains tax and business tax to name just a few. all added up thats a lot of tax.
Not to mention the ever since the goverment run out of money they've been clapping down on tax haevens. Effectively, the rich these people become the more it helps everyone else. Money and the illusion of sussec is just the incentive for them to help others. (Imagine, being altruistic without even knowing it)
Also bear in mind that so long as your above the poverty line an increase in money has no effect on how happy you are, and that suicides and depression tend to be more common in people how work in high pressure job such as banking ect.

The difference between this an desteni money's are pretty much that they would do it to a more extream level, which could potentaily mean less money over all as the rich couldn't further invest in the businesses they create.
They also have different idea about the state that seams to have no methode of dealing with nationalism and have a slightly useless idea about a dual money system wich wouldn't work because people would just trade between them.
Apart from that it already exists and it's called socialism.

Desteni would work on a small scale, large scale you run into problems of incentive and differing opinions, nationalism, only people that want to be in Destenis society would cause it to thrive.

A smaller scale community would be nice, we have so many people under one banner that some people start to feel isolated simply because they're among so many voices. But again, you couldn't scale down North America unless an integration plan was created and Federal governments agreed that a scaling down was needed in order to save the economy.

Some people deserve to make more money than others, it's just that simple.

Also what happens if/when someone stumbles onto wealth? You going to let them have it or are you gonna take it from them in the name of equality?

"Of course many people will say "It's not slavery, you don't HAVE to work"... but how true is that when you think about the consequences of NOT having a job in North America?"

Yes they may have to live on Welfare the poor bastard.

It's not slavery and to compare it to slavery is quite frankly idiotic.

In slavery you do not even get the opportunity to choose your profession in the current system you can quit your job and try your luck at something else.

At 8/13/10 01:17 AM, DJManifest wrote: A smaller scale community would be nice, we have so many people under one banner that some people start to feel isolated simply because they're among so many voices. But again, you couldn't scale down North America unless an integration plan was created and Federal governments agreed that a scaling down was needed in order to save the economy.

On the contrary; eliminating the state would, in all likelihood, see the emergence of far more smaller-scale "communities".

Desteni would deteriorate into anarchy on large scale, people that worked harder and gained more "luxuary money" would have the banner of equality raised against them, most likely ending in violence.

At 8/13/10 04:14 AM, FatherTime89 wrote: "Of course many people will say "It's not slavery, you don't HAVE to work"... but how true is that when you think about the consequences of NOT having a job in North America?"

Yes they may have to live on Welfare the poor bastard.

It's not slavery and to compare it to slavery is quite frankly idiotic.

In slavery you do not even get the opportunity to choose your profession in the current system you can quit your job and try your luck at something else.

You clearly have never had to live on welfare, you rich bastard.

Comparing things is never an idiotic endeavor, I can draw similarities if I damn well please and since you don't seem to have any input I'd suggest you go rag on people in the general forum.

You would be a person who was born closer to the top of the pyramid so go ask daddy for some cash and go to the mall... try not to step on the homeless while you're walking through the rougher parts of town, and try not to get killed by the people who want that cash you get so easily.

At 8/13/10 05:41 PM, Ganon-Dorf wrote: Desteni would deteriorate into anarchy on large scale, people that worked harder and gained more "luxuary money" would have the banner of equality raised against them, most likely ending in violence.

Absolutely, I've been saying that from the first post... This society is much too large to support equality and the majority like it the way it is... That does not mean it's perfect, it makes it the devil you know versus the devil you don't.

On a free market, there would be far more jobs (no minimum wage, taxation, regulations and general fucking ups of the structure of production by the state)

Eventually the number of jobs would outgrow or match the number of workers and so firms would start competing for employees, rather than the employees competing for jobs (obviously they will still compete for medium to high-level jobs; I mean that getting employment full stop won't be a struggle).

This will bid up the cost of Labor and so real wages will rise, or in lieu of better pay, better deals could be offered in order to attract employees (better conditions, less hours, more holidays etc).

Furthermore, wages will be far greater at acting as price signals and so workers will be better at determining which industry to enter and hence securing higher wages, and a further division of labour leading to greater human capital, making workers more valuable to employees.

Further still, this higher and better (allocated) employment will result in greater and more efficent production, and so everyone will ultimately be wealthier. Win-win.

However, with a heavily regulated Labor market, its lose-lose.

The measures introduced in order to help workers ultimately hurt them and lead to greater unemployment, and the subsequently necessary unemployment benefits lead to more taxation, exacerbating the question.

but hey, if something is INTENDED to help the poor, that's ll that matters, right? RIGHT?

At 8/14/10 04:55 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: exacerbating the question.

Um so I meant situation.

At 8/12/10 11:04 PM, andy16 wrote:
Effectively, the rich these people become the more it helps everyone else. Money and the illusion of sussec is just the incentive for them to help others. (Imagine, being altruistic without even knowing it)

There is no illusion of success here AND there is no money. I see those who work hard getting robbed for the benefit of the lazy. How long would the ambitious put forth effort if half of the reward for his deeds were taken away? Who's gonna even get outta bed in the morning when all they have to do is just wait for the check?
Where's this money going to come from after all the ambitious folks become extinct? uh oh! better instate more government agencies to control the behavior of the citizens, so they don't become lazy. hmmmm, now how do we fund that and pay the new government employees? More taxes! yay! Anyone see where this is going?
How long does someone endure constant rape before they fight back. How soon would it's citizens rage against that machine? Smell the revolution in the air.

As far as being altruistic, wouldn't it be better to know it? Wouldn't it feel better to give freely and enjoy your sense of charity than to never know how your hand has helped? Personally, I never want an institution tell me Who, What, Where, When, Why or How I have to give. I should have that choice. I should be responsible for myself and my finances and my decisions, not some ass in a chair on a powertrip.

MagicSalt...best post in this whole thread, bravo to you sir.

Here's the problem with that theory:
They assume all people are equal.

At 8/19/10 01:21 AM, Gario wrote: Here's the problem with that theory:
They assume all people are equal.

Care to elaborate on that?

At 8/19/10 01:25 PM, Ganon-Dorf wrote:

At 8/19/10 01:21 AM, Gario wrote: Here's the problem with that theory:
They assume all people are equal.

Care to elaborate on that?

Certainly.

Every single point made in that theory relies on the assumption that every single human being is equal in ability, needs, neuroticism, etc., when it's a proven fact that people are not equal in many/most of these regards (Spearman's General Intelligence Factor and Gardener's Multiple Intelligences both prove that people are different in intelligence and performance, at the very least). Thus, nearly every single point that is brought up doesn't reflect reality at all.

The underlining assumption can (and has been) easily proven as a false premise. Thus, even if the logic and conclusions were correct (they probably aren't, but let's assume they are) they do not relate to the 'problem' of money, at all.

if someone wanted to give me a home, food, etc that is "needed" to live, you think i would work? the short answer is "hell no."

truth be told, humans can get by on a surprising small amount of things that are "needed".

also, who determines what is "needed"?

Capitalism works, you just gotta be willing to rise to the challenge. you dont HAVE to go back to school to succeed. you are simply taught that. the concept is pounded into your head as a child, and as an adult you believe it. you could study carpentry in your free time, or better, get a job as an apprentice to a carpenter and learn the trade. Once you've learned how to work with wood, you could open your own business, building things like furniture, houses, or even knick-knacks. no matter what road you take in life, you won't succeed if you don't work hard. If people are "given" what they "need" to survive, you've taken the very need to work hard towards anything.

If I'm given everything i need to survive, then I just need some kind of part time job to afford a few luxuries in life, then I can quit my job and stay at home and enjoy myself until i want something else, then go get some bullshit job somewhere. Or, if i don't desire any luxuries, I don't even have to do that.

"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you tell that lazy son of a bitch to go get his own damn fish, he will probably learn to fish if he wants the fish badly enough. If you teach the man to fish, then you're a nice person."

It's all in how you look at it i suppose. I don't believe in taking care of people who can take care of themselves.

Well I'm IP banned from Desteni's forum and they have all blocked me from their youtube channels...so much for an "equal" society.