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Because satanbrain is prejudice against all Muslims. He won't say it, but read any post he makes on the subject, and it's pretty obvious he sees all of Islam as Hezbollah, al qaeda, and whatever else. That the religion itself is as wrong and evil as every extremist within it.

At 8/31/10 02:48 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Because satanbrain is prejudice against all Muslims. He won't say it, but read any post he makes on the subject, and it's pretty obvious he sees all of Islam as Hezbollah, al qaeda, and whatever else. That the religion itself is as wrong and evil as every extremist within it.

If these Muslims doesn't read and believe in the Quran, i have no objection for them building a mosque. And read the Quran before you're saying it's prejudice.

At 8/31/10 03:11 AM, satanbrain wrote: If these Muslims doesn't read and believe in the Quran, i have no objection for them building a mosque.

...

Seriously...?

Did those words actually come out of your brain and make sense to you?

Am I reading that right?

Because if I am, that has to be the most... wait... no... must be civil.

SERIOUSLY!?

At 8/31/10 12:50 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 8/30/10 03:14 PM, zephiran wrote: Also, do note that Rauf is acting somewhat restrained to begin with, these men are all undeniably well known Islamic scholars, and as a scholar himself it's not surprising that he has a large degree of academic respect for them. Respect isn't synonymous with support though, I can respect a person without supporting his own controversial views, can I not?

acedemic respect for everyone who condemn america and israel.

That's not generic and sweeping at all, gee whiz cocopuffs! I asked of you to provide substantial and clear cut instances where the three men mentioned make provocative statements and actively preach militant extremism. Come on, if they're AWFUL AWFUL ENEMIES OF THE WORLD that should be a piece of cake, yes?

and can you support a place where his 'controversial views' are being preached, over and over, with faithful followers to do as he say.

Is he supporting a PLACE all of a sudden now? I thought we were talking about specific people! HOOO BOY AM I STUPID.

At 8/30/10 06:57 PM, Yorik wrote: What have they done that is illegal? You keep saying they SAY this and SUPPORT that, but not that they have actually done anything.

so they're no believing in their own laws? why then, they need to build a religious place of worsihp if they are not believing in the this type of worship?

Sol handled this pretty nicely, quoted for emphasis, since you didn't directly respond to any of it:

"What law? Islamic scholars have been disagreeing over what constitutes sharia (the "way") law since the dawn of Islam, and we've already pointed out that not all muslims do pracitice "muslimy" things and laws; why are you still going on about "true muslims" magically (muslims have genies, right?) springing from the foundation of Park51 and violently islamiscizing all of Manhattan?"

At 8/31/10 03:11 AM, satanbrain wrote: If these Muslims doesn't read and believe in the Quran, i have no objection for them building a mosque. And read the Quran before you're saying it's prejudice.

Emphasis:

"We've already pointed out that not all muslims do practice "muslimy" things and laws; why are you still going on about "true muslims" magically (muslims have genies, right?) springing from the foundation of Park51 and violently islamiscizing all of Manhattan?"

Also.

It's totally okay for Jews to be Jewish as long as they don't read anything related to their religion and don't practice their religion in any way or form.

I can say this, because if I say " No Nazi! " next it's okay, see?

YAY!

At 8/31/10 12:50 AM, satanbrain wrote:

so they're no believing in their own laws? why then, they need to build a religious place of worsihp if they are not believing in the this type of worship?

Why would their laws be illegal? A mosque is a place to respect Allah and bring them closer to him through the teachings of the Quran. The Sharia law, which you are referring to, is law which they follow to bring them closer to Allah and is at least partialy derive from the Quran- but there are different interpretations of Shariah law depending on what kind of Muslim you are. Modern muslims generaly put state law first, though, and most modern Muslims dont feel obliged to carry out honour killings or acts of mutiliation.

I do know muslims who will eat the meet from my fridge, drink a beer or smoke a doob. These are often 1st or 2nd generation Irish muslims, so the progression seems pretty quick to me. The ones I know that dont are often still pretty open minded and pragmatic, the main problem being muslim I see is that that the loudest voice in their group is the stupidest. Worse still, people assume they are all like that.

Please learn about Islam before making ignorant statements and embarassing yourself you snotty little child.

Quran's chosen quotes:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell
Only evil people are disbelievers
Intermarriage is forbidden
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous
Jews and Christians are evil-livers
Allah turns Jews into apes!

read the Quran

At 8/31/10 10:19 AM, satanbrain wrote: Quran's chosen quotes:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous
Jews and Christians are evil-livers
Allah turns Jews into apes!

Um, okay, I did not know the Quran said that. Could you give us the exact verses because that is probably the worst thing I have ever heard the Quran say.

At 8/31/10 12:50 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 8/30/10 06:57 PM, Yorik wrote: What have they done that is illegal? You keep saying they SAY this and SUPPORT that, but not that they have actually done anything.

so they're no believing in their own laws? why then, they need to build a religious place of worsihp if they are not believing in the this type of worship?

... Listen, I already explained that a belief is not a crime in America, so if we're just going to go around in circles like this I'll just accept your inability to answer the question as a concession.

At 8/31/10 10:19 AM, satanbrain wrote: Quran's chosen quotes:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell
Only evil people are disbelievers
Intermarriage is forbidden
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous
Jews and Christians are evil-livers
Allah turns Jews into apes!

read the Quran

Have you read the Old Testement? A women shouldn't even be in public until a week after menstruation, disbeleivers should be killed, god kills the weak etc. etc.

Religous texts are given context when interpreted. No sane Christian actualy leaves women are made of a mans rib or that Noah built an ark by himself to house all the millions of species that exist today which (we are still discovering, you think he'd have wrote them down).

Being literal on spiritual matters is stupid and all this has proven is you are a completeley anti-Islam and bigoted.

At 8/31/10 10:48 AM, Ericho wrote: Um, okay, I did not know the Quran said that. Could you give us the exact verses because that is probably the worst thing I have ever heard the Quran say.

Five bucks says he won't post the exact verses because I bet he's never even read a lick of the Quran because it's "evil".

Mandatory 20 pages cheer...

Anyways, going down the Quran route, surely you don't think that maybe other religions possibly interpret their holy texts differently as well?

It would be a pretty funny world if those who believed in the bible suddenly followed every verse down to the wire, including rules, laws, and special days...

So if Christians are allowed to interpret and follow their religion without following laws like "Stone the Bride if she is proven not to be a virgin" (not the exact line, but I remembered reading it) then why is it so hard to believe that the Muslims in Southern Manhatten are the same, following the Quran's peaceful teachings?

At 8/31/10 03:11 AM, satanbrain wrote: If these Muslims doesn't read and believe in the Quran, i have no objection for them building a mosque. And read the Quran before you're saying it's prejudice.

That was a joke, right?

Believe what you believe, hate what you want to hate, thats your right. But the constitution stands and they have the right to build a community center, mosque, ferris wheel.. whatever as long as its within the law. Just as much as a Jewish, Christian, Budist, Hindu or any other religion has that right.

Deal with it and stop hustling this stupid thing that has been put into motion. In the end, the place will get built but not before politicians make an ass out of America if you keep this up.

Grow the hell up and pay more attention in civics class.

Seeing that the Constitution gives every citizen the freedom of religion, I really don't see the problem in building a mosque near the World Trade Center. Besides, it's not like they're building it RIGHT OVER the site, just a few blocks away from it.

Every person has the right to worship how they want to, be it Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindi, etc.

You can't judge an entire religion just for the acts of a few people. That's not what Islam is about at all. Hell, it even MEANS peace: a peaceful submission to the will of God. That's it. Read the Koran and judge for yourself, not make assumptions based on the biased shit you hear on the news.

At 8/31/10 10:19 AM, satanbrain wrote: read the Quran

Funny enough I have a Quran right here, and I don't see a lick of evidence saying that verse you referred to is even in it.

More so, LOL

2:62
As for the believers, for the Jews, the Christians and the Sabeans who believe in God and the Last Day, and who do righteous deeds-these have their wage with their Lord.(!) No fear shall fall upon them, nor shall they grieve.

At 8/31/10 07:41 PM, BrianEtrius wrote:

At 8/31/10 10:19 AM, satanbrain wrote: read the Quran

Funny enough I have a Quran right here, and I don't see a lick of evidence saying that verse you referred to is even in it.

More so, LOL

2:62
As for the believers, for the Jews, the Christians and the Sabeans who believe in God and the Last Day, and who do righteous deeds-these have their wage with their Lord.(!) No fear shall fall upon them, nor shall they grieve.

Little does Satanbrain know that a whole lot of those verses he quoted may actually be from the Hadiths. I haven't bothered to check, but damn I've got this nice little coppery 5 cent coin that I'd like to bet on that being the case.

Also, as weird as it may sound to western secularists whose spider senses tingle when they hear stuff like "Strictly by the book" mentioned in relation to religion, there's actually a movement within Islam called "Qur'an Alone" that is considered fairly progressive, LIBERAL even. Not what you would expect from a bunch of bookthumpers, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an_al one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive _islam

At 8/31/10 09:39 PM, zephiran wrote:

Also, as weird as it may sound to western secularists whose spider senses tingle when they hear stuff like "Strictly by the book" mentioned in relation to religion, there's actually a movement within Islam called "Qur'an Alone" that is considered fairly progressive, LIBERAL even. Not what you would expect from a bunch of bookthumpers, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an_al one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive _islam

I'd seen those myself, they're pretty interesting. Islam feminism is also a pretty cool movement (and doesn't afraid of anything). It's just a religion, and their are assholes in every religion. I would happily slap a Christian fundamentalist in the mouth. But for people like Satan Brain it's just conveniant to ball everyone he doesn't like together for his self rightous agenda. And if they call you a bigot, call them a whiney liberal! Whiney! Ha! Showed you, Pinko!

But srsly gaiz Muslims all haet Jews nd r tryin tew destr0y r fredums!

the quran. as for the Bible, i never said it was any better, although it says nothing bad about muslims or christians.

At 9/1/10 08:11 AM, satanbrain wrote:

the Bible... says nothing bad about ...christians.

No, really, please. Do go on.

It says anyone not of the true religion (Christianity or Judaism, depending on whose reading The Old Testement. There's that context thing again.) is to be damned for all eternity.

You still haven't citated those really interesting Quran quotes you gave earlier. We're waiting, Mr. President.

At 9/1/10 08:33 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 9/1/10 08:11 AM, satanbrain wrote:

the Bible... says nothing bad about ...christians.

No, really, please. Do go on.

It says anyone not of the true religion (Christianity or Judaism, depending on whose reading The Old Testement. There's that context thing again.) is to be damned for all eternity.

but not by humans. by god, and god doesn't exist.

You still haven't citated those really interesting Quran quotes you gave earlier. We're waiting, Mr. President.

haven't i?
2:96 And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.
(2:99) "We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them."
(2:221) "Wed not idolatresses till they believe."
2:286 Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk.
5:12 Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.
5:13 And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.
5:59 Say: O People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers ?
7:166 So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!

At 9/1/10 08:51 AM, satanbrain wrote: but not by humans. by god, and god doesn't exist.

If that's an argument for exception then a few of the quotes you just gave us don't count either.

If it's not an argument for exception then what the hell is the relevance of your point?

Err, did you read those quotes? They don't mention Jews at all! As close as I could find was "Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you." which is actualy pretty affirmative.

Or was I not supposed to read them and just let you feel clever?

I really don't understand your point of view, Satan. It's like stepping into a reality distortion field where Jews poo rainbows and Muslims are made of hand grenades and rape victims. There's no logic, you don't seem to able to say whatever it is you're getting at and you don't seem interested in understanding other cultures. Which begs the question why are you debating Islamic culture if you don't want to learn about it?

You're so funny, satanbrain. Anyone could rip quotes out of any religious text to make the religion sound intolerant of everyone else.

Hmm... just a quick glance over the text provided in your link, here...

Alright, so the beginning of the second chapter (2:1-15, possibly more than that) is all about people who are liars and perverse people, so Allah is explaining how their lies won't go unpunished. The link you provided extracts every angry response of Allah to these people without the context that these people were evil, from the start. That... isn't intolerance. The text more or less explains the result of people that try to lie their way into 'Heaven' (or whatever it is for Islam).

Alright, so if that's intolerant then, supposedly, if someone is going to touch a hotplate and an observer tells him that he'll be burned that observer is intolerant of the moron that's going to touch the hotplate? No, most people would call that a warning, which is what much of the second chapter in the Quran was giving out to those that don't believe. I'm not going to read the entire Quran to point out the terrible out-of-context nature of the link you've provided, but I feel safe to assume that most (if not all) of it is equally misrepresented.

As for the original topic of debate, even IF the Quran was a compilation of bigotry, hatred and belligerence, what gives you the right to take away their freedom to practice their religion wherever they chose? It's not like there aren't other religions that preach the exact same message, right?

I wonder if there would even be a debate if these guys were setting up their church/community building in that exact same place...

This mosque should be built because it will show how accepting we are of people around the world. The double standard is that everyone complains about how an atheist can not be elected President or a member of the Cabinet or something. Well, what chances does a Muslim have of becoming President or a high political office? Everyone is always for protecting minorities, but only really when they are a part of the minority.

At 9/1/10 12:00 PM, Gario wrote: Alright, so the beginning of the second chapter (2:1-15, possibly more than that) is all about people who are liars and perverse people, so Allah is explaining how their lies won't go unpunished. The link you provided extracts every angry response of Allah to these people without the context that these people were evil, from the start. That... isn't intolerance. The text more or less explains the result of people that try to lie their way into 'Heaven' (or whatever it is for Islam).

so jews are liars, perverse people? that is intolerance? reaching to heaven is through punishing jews?

I'm not going to read the entire Quran to point out the terrible out-of-context nature of the link you've provided, but I feel safe to assume that most (if not all) of it is equally misrepresented.

of course you wouldn't, you also wouldn't read the whole history of wars, only the latest news from it.

As for the original topic of debate, even IF the Quran was a compilation of bigotry, hatred and belligerence, what gives you the right to take away their freedom to practice their religion wherever they chose? It's not like there aren't other religions that preach the exact same message, right?

that is why it should be taken from them.

At 9/1/10 01:25 PM, satanbrain wrote:

so jews are liars, perverse people? that is intolerance? reaching to heaven is through punishing jews?
Jews jew jews? JEWS JEWS JEWS JEWS JEWS!?!? JEWWWWS JEWWWWS JEWWWWS!?!

Woah, I thought for a second this was a thread about Muslims. But apparantly it's about Jews now. Also..

At 9/1/10 01:25 PM, satanbrain wrote:
so jews are liars, perverse people? that is intolerance? reaching to heaven is through punishing jews?

It never talked about Jews, or even Christians. Ever. What are you even talking about, at this point?

And no, I'm not going to read an entire holy text just for the sake of proving you wrong. I have better things to do with my time, surprisingly.

At 9/1/10 01:25 PM, satanbrain wrote: Angry, angry stuff!

At 9/1/10 09:46 AM, Chris-V2 wrote: Err, did you read those quotes? They don't mention Jews at all!

Emphasis: Jews specifically aren't targeted by any of the original quotes. It all comes down to your interpretation of "unbelievers". Which, incidentally, Islam doesn't consider Jews to be.

Read:

People of the Book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_t he_Book

BrianEtrius:

"2:62
As for the believers, for the Jews, the Christians and the Sabeans who believe in God and the Last Day, and who do righteous deeds-these have their wage with their Lord.(!) No fear shall fall upon them, nor shall they grieve."

so jews are liars

Well, given YOUR history in this thread, I think we can safely conclude that there's at least ONE Jew that isn't entirely honest.

that is why it should be taken from them.

I'm going to remember this for later, just because it's so damn funny.

At 9/1/10 08:11 AM, satanbrain wrote: the quran.

the first quote: "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. 1:6-7"
followed by this: 'Muslims generally interpret "those whom Allah has favored," "those who earn Allah's anger," and "those who go astray" as Muslims, Jews, and Christians, respectively.'
no offence, but attributing such specific meaning to something that doesn't mention those faiths seems a terribly dishonest thing to do.

as for the Bible, i never said it was any better, although it says nothing bad about muslims or christians.

...i wonder why the Bible doesn't say anything bad about muslims or christians....