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1st amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Building a community center with 2 floors of praying space is not a mosque.

The best argument for putting a mosque there (or at least that the entire argument is useless) can be found here. You guys should all know how helpful Cracked.com can be.

Though I find it inappropriate, I acknowledge the constitutionality of building the thing and really wouldn't care either way if it actually gets built.

However, I am in strong favor of Greg Gutfeld opening his Islamic gay bar in the vicinity of it. :D

At 8/20/10 10:50 AM, nycwhiz wrote: Building a community center with 2 floors of praying space is not a mosque.

If it's "Just a community center" why do you need 2 floors of praying space? Why not just one room? Why an entire floor? Why 2 of them?

<sarcasm>
This isn't a church, it's a community center... with 97% of it dedicated to worshiping jesus. :)
</sarcasm>

Also, you guys can stop telling me I'm alone in thinking this way now. It turns out, the majority of the people are on my side... 61% of Americans oppose the mosque

More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Opposition to the project appears to derive largely from the conviction that the proposed site of the project - just two blocks from Ground Zero, in a building that formerly housed a Burlington Coat Factory outlet - is so close to "hallowed ground," as President Obama put it.

This is where I would say "suck it"... if I thought you guys could take a joke. :)

At 8/20/10 05:08 PM, CacheHelper wrote: Also, you guys can stop telling me I'm alone in thinking this way now. It turns out, the majority of the people are on my side... 61% of Americans oppose the mosque

If this was a popularity contest, I'd give you the victory crown.
But I don't think either you or I believe that to be the case.

I would suspect an even higher percent dislike the KKK. We still allow them to protest and do their thing, right?

My question is this:
Are the ideals of the country greater than the perceived insult?

I don't recall you having a legal objection. So the objection isn't over what they can do, but over what you take as the insult, yes? In other words, they shouldn't do it, because you perceive an insult over it, yes?

Does that insult outweigh the legal right to put up the center?
If you can live with the KKK, can you live with a mosque at Ground Zero?

At 8/20/10 05:08 PM, CacheHelper wrote: Also, you guys can stop telling me I'm alone in thinking this way now.

I'm confused... did you just completely drop every line of arguments you had to come out of left field and tell us that we're wrong for saying you're alone regarding the mosque... when... no one actually said you were alone regarding the mosque in the first place?

I don't want to sound like a dick and this probably belongs in the general but wouldn't it be ironic as hell if 2 christians hijacked a plane and flew it into the building?

but in all seriousness while it may seem rude and disrespectful it's not illegal do to the first amendment.

At 8/20/10 05:08 PM, CacheHelper wrote: If it's "Just a community center" why do you need 2 floors of praying space? Why not just one room? Why an entire floor? Why 2 of them?

Why do you need to restrict the space at all? If it's a community center and the builder and lease holder decides they want to have praying space everywhere or nowhere, what does it matter? Oh right...because they're praying to a God some people find inappropriate...right.

<sarcasm>
This isn't a church, it's a community center... with 97% of it dedicated to worshiping jesus. :)
</sarcasm>

So? If they dedicated even a hundred percent of it to worshipping Jesus how is it necessarily not a community center if they still have community center type activities? Correct me if I'm wrong oh people who may be more informed on this then myself...but wouldn't you need different zoning permits for a church versus community center? I'm quite sure if they were somehow trying to cheat the zoning board would have noticed and denied them.

Also, you guys can stop telling me I'm alone in thinking this way now. It turns out, the majority of the people are on my side... 61% of Americans oppose the mosque

Where'd you get that number from? Also now we're arguing from "tyranny of the majority"?

Hey, 61% of Americans agree jumping off the Empire State Building is wicked awesome. Does that make it a good idea?

More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Opposition to the project appears to derive largely from the conviction that the proposed site of the project - just two blocks from Ground Zero, in a building that formerly housed a Burlington Coat Factory outlet - is so close to "hallowed ground," as President Obama put it.

All that shows me is 70% don't bother to make the distinction between Islam and Extremist Islam. That's sad. Also where are these surveys you're getting coming from plz?

This is where I would say "suck it"... if I thought you guys could take a joke. :)

Right, because tyranny of the majority makes you right. Hey, just because you can find a lot of people to agree with a faulty premise doesn't mean it's any less faulty. :)

2 billion people or so think Jesus was God and died on a cross for their sins. Doesn't make it true or lend any more credence to the theory that he was and did. Just means a lot of people think he did.

At 8/20/10 05:33 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: I'm confused... did you just completely drop every line of arguments you had to come out of left field and tell us that we're wrong for saying you're alone regarding the mosque... when... no one actually said you were alone regarding the mosque in the first place?

Welcome to the wonderful world of arguing with CacheHelper.....

At 8/20/10 05:08 PM, CacheHelper wrote:

Also, you guys can stop telling me I'm alone in thinking this way now. It turns out, the majority of the people are on my side... 61% of Americans oppose the mosque

That's encouraging seeing at at least 78% of Americans are idiots.
Wow!

Wait wait...if you allow the project is constitutionally protected...and The President is charged with executing and defending the Constitution...he shouldn't intervene because the city gets to decide?

Yeahbutwhat?

Isn't that the whole reason why the Federal Government is ultimately empowered to be the last word on Constituionality of shit? I mean, in some cases (like segregation) people put their own unconstitutional feelings and beliefs ahead of what is constitutional and legal.

Sorry Rydia, I just don't follow your thought process here.

At 8/20/10 09:40 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: Sorry I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that Obama cited that the First Amendment allows Muslims to build a mosque wherever they please despite what the xenophobes are saying. And he's absolutely correct on that matter.

Ok, so far we agree.

At the same time though, this is an internal fight for New Yorkers to decide for themselves.

Um...no? Because as we just agreed, they have a CONSTITUTIONAL right to build they're community center (it's not really a true mosque) there as long as they follow all other applicable laws, which they did.

I am offended when outsiders try pushing their way into other people's business.

Right, because that kind of shit has never ever yielded good results...oh wait...Civil Rights.

Because the individuals of a given area will always do what is right, proper, and constitutional...oh wait...Segregation.

I don't get how on the one hand you can say they have all the right in the world under the governing document of the land, and by all accounts they've followed all applicable laws...but NYC should still be able to say no. Because of what looks for all the world to me like xenophobia. All I hear are either blatant xenophobic arguments, or what is probably xenophobia masquerading as empathy and sympathy for the 9/11 victims. Hey, how about a little empathy and sympathy for the MUSLIM victims? How about a little sympathy and empathy for the smearing they and their religion have had to go through over this in the last 9 years since. It ain't just the people in the attacks that got fucked over by Al Qaeda. An entire religion that was teetering on acceptability in the west got a major push back towards the whole "they ain't us, therefore they bad" file.

I was offended when Obama came here to endorse Arlen Specter for the election, as if implying Pennsylvanians were too stupid to decide for themselves. I say, leave Pennsylvania politics to Pennsylvanians. I think the same principle applies here--leave a New York problem to New Yorkers.

It doesn't. There's no law or constitutional amendment potentially violated by Obama endorsing Specter...also, why are you so surprised he did? That's what the fuck the President DOES for his party members when they're trying to get re-elected. He tries to lend his aura and support to those candidates. I don't think it was him treating Pennsylvanians as stupid (but as I recall he had some harsh things to say about a certain segment of them back during his own campaign so I think that's playing into your feelings here) so much as he's executing one of the unwritten (or maybe it is written down somewhere) of party politics: Get your people elected.

Also how is a violation of constitutionality, xenophobia, and breaking the law simply a "New York problem to be left to New Yorkers" to me it's in the same ball park as saying that the Civil Rights Act was meddling with state rights to keep them undesirable darkies from voting. I'm not saying it's EXACTLY the same because I don't believe there's as much blatant racism, but it's certainly in that realm because I HAVE heard some fairly blatant racism and xenophobia used to defend the idea of not letting this go through.

So I think he offended a lot more people than were originally upset about the whole mosque thing to begin with by taking a stand on the issue.

Maybe, but to me I feel like it's within the purview of the President as defender of the Constitution to take a stand on an issue where Constitutionality and the rule of law may be ignored in favor of mob rule. Especially when as has been pointed out a few times, we have some businesses that could be considered way less "desirable" much much closer to that "sacred ground"

At 8/20/10 09:40 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: At the same time though, this is an internal fight for New Yorkers to decide for themselves. I am offended when outsiders try pushing their way into other people's business.

I think that is a very very poor argument to make here. You make a negative comment about Obama weighing in AFTER tons of muckrakers opened the New Yorkers' issue to the US, and tons of other politicians who have made their official comments. It's OK when they do it, but not when Obama does... Sure, sure, back pedal and say "Well I never said it was OK for the others to butt in" but where was this ire at the beginning of the post? What the hell do we NGers know, most of us not being from NYC? What about the fucking assdickshitbitchlowerthanthosepiecesofsh itthatsticktomyasshairs professional muckrakers who brought this story into national attention? What about Palin? Why only chime in now?

Half-joking:

Let's stick a Starbucks there instead. Seriously. We can at least claim it as a symbol of American ingenuity and industry. Totally not disrespectful to stick a Starbucks on Ground Zero, right?

It's really simple for you people who feel insulted: If that's "hallowed ground" and sticking a mosque there would dishonor the victims, then what could we stick there that won't dishonor them?

Is a Starbucks Ok? How about a Gap? Army recruiting station? A Synagogue? Church? Government office?

You want my opinion? A Mosque is PERFECT. Not only does it show a commitment to the ideals of freedom and tolerance, it promotes cultural understanding and harmony.

For you Christians, this is called "turning the other cheek" and "loving thine enemies", and you should be ALL FOR A MOSQUE.

Sensitively, building a mosque near ground zero does sound like a bad idea, but we don't live in a theocracy, we live in a democratic republic. If the rights to religion are infringed, then it is unconstitutional. If they have permission to build a mosque, then they have the right to, and it would break constitutional law to deny it just because it is a religious building which another religion doesn't like.

You can say that they can build it somewhere else to cause less commotion to Christians, but let's face it people. A mosque in America will always cause a commotion with people who aren't of their faith. A mosque is always protested, no matter where its built.

America is a country of freedom, it would be wrong to divide certain cultures into groups, we've done that before with race, we should not start it again with religion. Forcing a religious group of people to worship somewhere else because it ruffles a few feathers is segregation.

This isn't about freedom of religion. There are thousands of mosques in the United States, and for the most part, they havent caused any outrage. The issue here is sensitivity. The attacks on Sept. 11, 2001 were done in the name of Islam, abit a perverted teaching of it. To build a religious center that teaches Islam so close to a place where so many lives were taken in the same name is extremely disrespectful.

I love the people who only read the thread title and then regurgitate their immediate gut reaction when they could actually READ a page or two...realize the "gut reaction" has been argued to death, and MAYBE if they thought about it could add something new and insightful to the proceedings.

Yeah that sounds too much like effort for most goddamn people I guess...

Here's a list of buildings that shouldn't be built there based on the same "logic"

- A flight school
- A plane/helicopter rental company
- A travel agency
- A gun store
- A video game store that carries flight simulators

Feel free to add to this list!

At 8/21/10 02:05 AM, poxpower wrote: Here's a list of buildings that shouldn't be built there based on the same "logic"

- A flight school
- A plane/helicopter rental company
- A travel agency
- A gun store
- A video game store that carries flight simulators

Feel free to add to this list!

movie stores, for they may have movies, they many sell stand up comedys that bring up 9/11.

At 8/21/10 02:05 AM, poxpower wrote:
Feel free to add to this list!

Music stores. They'll have Earth, Wind, and Fire, which means "Dancing in September".
People might take offense. Can't have that.
Plus, all those guys who made 9/11 CDs. Might look like trying to capitalize on the tragedy, don't want to offend people.

Book stores. Might have books that deal with 9/11.

Offices. Might not pay proper "respect" to the Trade Towers to showcase corporatism so close to Ground Zero.

Food stores. Would be pretty offensive to have McDonald's selling Big macs on hallowed ground.**

**Exception being if they start allowing hot dog vendors in mass.**

Anyone got a problem with paint stores?

At 8/21/10 02:05 AM, poxpower wrote: Here's a list of buildings that shouldn't be built there based on the same "logic"

- A flight school
- A plane/helicopter rental company
- A travel agency
- A gun store
- A video game store that carries flight simulators

Feel free to add to this list!

Hobby stores, because there'd be half built buildings that look like they are falling down and planes evvverrryywherrrre. OMG

At 8/21/10 02:05 AM, poxpower wrote: Here's a list of buildings that shouldn't be built there based on the same "logic"

- A flight school
- A plane/helicopter rental company
- A travel agency
- A gun store
- A video game store that carries flight simulators

Feel free to add to this list!

A massive office building
It was that kind of super capitalism that cause Al Qaeda to attack. All office buildings should not be allowed within 10 blocks of ground zero as they worship the same god, money, that made Al Qaeda attack.

Notice how quiet it gets when you ask what would be appropriate to build there.

Strange, it's almost like the opposition is an irrational, reactionary, visceral emotional response done without thought or consideration....

That there's no reasonable argument to be had other than "it makes me uncomfortable"....

While a mosque is inappropriate for such "hallowed ground", the local strip joint isn't.

So Islamic cultural center is clearly offensive.....but nothing says "respect" like the $10 lap dance you'll get next door....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there already a small worship center there and they are simply expanding on it? If so, what is the controversy?

At 8/21/10 05:52 PM, MrFlopz wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there already a small worship center there and they are simply expanding on it? If so, what is the controversy?

There's already a mosque 4 blocks away I think and they want to build this new one just 2 blocks away by replacing some other building.

This is a new center, different from the other one basically.

And the controversy is basically that Christian right-wingers don't want to see Islam spread because they're afraid of the terrrirrristssts and think Obama is a secret Muslim.

At 8/21/10 05:52 PM, MrFlopz wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there already a small worship center there and they are simply expanding on it? If so, what is the controversy?

The surrounding area contains:
A mosque
A Starbucks
Strip Club
X-rated video store (or was that a book store?)

Which is quite exciting really. Maybe they'll start letting us drink coffee and watch porn during mass? Would certainly liven up those long sermons a bit to have some pole dancers to look at....

And I'm not quite sure which is true, but there's either a mosque inside the Pentagon, or a pan-religious memorial chapel, which is used by Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc.

At 8/20/10 08:24 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 8/20/10 05:08 PM, CacheHelper wrote: Also, you guys can stop telling me I'm alone in thinking this way now. It turns out, the majority of the people are on my side... 61% of Americans oppose the mosque

Where'd you get that number from? Also now we're arguing from "tyranny of the majority"?

Hey, 61% of Americans agree jumping off the Empire State Building is wicked awesome. Does that make it a good idea?

More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Opposition to the project appears to derive largely from the conviction that the proposed site of the project - just two blocks from Ground Zero, in a building that formerly housed a Burlington Coat Factory outlet - is so close to "hallowed ground," as President Obama put it.

All that shows me is 70% don't bother to make the distinction between Islam and Extremist Islam. That's sad. Also where are these surveys you're getting coming from plz?

Did you not see the link? At the bottom, it says, "The poll, conducted by Abt SRBI, surveyed 1,002 adults - 89% of whom identified themselves as likely voters - on Aug. 16-17." Argumentum ad populum. I'd like to find out how many voters know it's not just going to be a mosque and know the place won't be supporting Al-Qaeda.

Are you also gonna respond to my last post, CacheHelper?

At 8/21/10 02:05 AM, poxpower wrote: Here's a list of buildings that shouldn't be built there based on the same "logic"

- A flight school
- A plane/helicopter rental company
- A travel agency
- A gun store
- A video game store that carries flight simulators

Feel free to add to this list!

Internet cafes would have restrictions to looking up certain information, like Islam and planes. Other Internet users should have them, too, and punishments for hacking.