The Possible American Coup.

[Stoicish]

Could it happen? Who knows?

In these times our country is quite possibly more polorized and seperated than ever. We live in a political world, at the moment, where more people are aligning themselves to liberalism or conservatism with more people going to conservatism. The gap between them are widening and they seem to demonize each other all the time for political game or a fools argument between Americans.

We have crippling underemployment with nearly 20% of Americans being underemployed or unemployed. This is leaving people with intense animosity towards the US government and buisnesses.

We have a terrible gulf disaster.

Two wars that seem endless.

Serious doubts on the spending that Congress does.

Not to mention the approval rating of Congress is at 22% while the President is at 44% an all time low for him.

Yes, the military, has a very high approval rating of up to 74%. People seem to put all their trust in the military yet have no trust in our civilian leadership.

To me we have all the ingrediants with no cooking pot for it to happen. Our system is too well defined for a Coup d'Etat to happen in this country no matter how much a Tea Party person may scream and shout about the Tree of Liberty.

If there was ever a time for a Coup to happen in this country it could of happened during the Great Depression, oh, and it almost DID! Short story, if you don't want to read the page, is that a group of business leaders from Wall Street set themselves up to oust FDR and set up a Facist regieme in the United States out of anger from FDR's new policies with the New Deal. They tried to get Marine General Smedley Butler to help, but made the fatal mistake of not figuring out if he'd be okay with it or not. It failed before it even could get to the planning stages because he told Congress on them.

Which is kind of scary because now we are in a serious similar scenario like last time. Crippling unemployment, business leaders and Americans furious at Washington, crippling war, etc, etc.

Only...it just doesn't seem likely and very improbable. In the end if it happened you'd have to have military leaders who would listen to an order like that, then the Pentegon to agree, then the bases to agree, then (in the end) the American people to want something like this to happen which leads to our great free country.

We are a people raised with the idea of being revolutionaries. Take away our freedoms or do anything that doesn't seem kosher and we'd get pissed. Not violent, but the possibility is always there for us to do so.

Thoughts on this subject?

[Gorgonof]

Rednecks with hunting rifles want to storm the white house? I'm so scared.

Our government was set up to be mostly democratic so that it can change hands without bloodshed, that's probably as close as we'll ever get to a coup.

[Christopherr]

At 7/7/10 02:15 AM, Gorgonof wrote: Rednecks with hunting rifles want to storm the white house? I'm so scared.

Our government was set up to be mostly democratic so that it can change hands without bloodshed, that's probably as close as we'll ever get to a coup.

The most democratic government we ever had was when it was under control of said "rednecks". Easy on the redneck bashing, Andrew Jackson will posthumously murder you.

[Dawnslayer]

The U.S. Declaration of Independence, for anyone who needs a refresher.

Please note this phrase in particular: "it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish" a destructive government.

First question: is the government we have destructive? According to my sources, yes. The truth is we do not have a government of the people, but a government controlled by business interests. This is accomplished as follows:

1) Control over media, and hence control over who and what gets exposure;
2) Financing campaigns to levels of expense most running hopefuls can't match;
3) Elected officials who "deregulate" (a.k.a. add regulation in favor of) business and media;
4) Appointed officials from the businesses themselves, e.g. Mineral Management Services.

This entrenchment of business interests in government ensures policies which favor the businesses with the most power, regardless of public desires and needs.

Second question: can the government be altered from its destructive state? Unlikely. The process of ousting every public official working for business interests and replacing them with officials who truly have the interests of the people in mind could take anywhere from decades to millennia, if it's even possible. Save for a massive outcry for reformation, this outcome probably isn't going to happen, if only because of the sheer apathy of the public in general.

Third question: if the government can not be altered, how might it be abolished?

1) Coup d'etat: violent, chaotic, and usually no plan for the aftermath. This often results in something even worse than what was there before: for instance, if a conservative movement seized power in Washington and established an all right-wing government, "deregulation" could go unchallenged, permanently fusing business and government. What's more, whatever faction seizes power has to deal with every other faction in the country, leading either to totalitarian rule or civil war.

2) Secession: methodical, well-planned, and derived from public consensus. But this has problems of its own. To be legal, the decision must be bilateral; in other words, the federal government has to say it's okay, which will never happen. Done "illegally," secession tends to result in the parent country sending in its military to force the union back together, which unless the seceding party has rivaling power or really good friends tends to result in the parent country winning. And even if the secession is successful, the new government could end up just as bad or worse than the one that came before it (see "coup d'etat," above). The only real advantage is that faction generally isn't as much of a problem, assuming you made sure the people who are seceding actually want to do so.

That said, I consider the coup d'etat a non-option, as it will inevitably lead to the fracture of the nation as a whole for entrenching factions and pitting them against each other. This leaves reformation and secession; and although the human race still surprises me sometimes, I'm not seeing forces at work for either one.

[gumOnShoe]

There is no well known military star, as far as I know, and as long as that is the case we're probably well off. That one dude getting fired over a Rolling Stones article is just proof that stuff like doesn't happen.

[Camarohusky]

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: In these times our country is quite possibly more polorized and seperated than ever.

No it's not.

Read the debates of the 19th Century and the early 20th Century. The previous few decades have been strangely quiet.

[Stoicish]

At 7/7/10 10:26 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: In these times our country is quite possibly more polorized and seperated than ever.

No it's not.

Read the debates of the 19th Century and the early 20th Century. The previous few decades have been strangely quiet.

I've seen a documentary that suggest we are is the only reason why I said that.

[Luxury-Yacht]

Americans don't have the balls to stage a coup.

[Ericho]

In all likeliness, a coup is not likely. If we had someone who was as hated as George W. Bush and no one made a coup then, we should not have much trouble. While Obama is certainly not a great President, he is infinitley better than Bush as he is not directly responsible for the war on terrorism or the poor economy. We simply would not have anything to gain because there are so many things we need help with.

[animehater]

At 7/7/10 08:31 PM, Luxury-Yacht wrote: Americans don't have the balls to stage a coup.

Or rather have the BRAINS not to. Seriously if we didn't have a regime change in the chaos in the sixties where there were riots left and right over race and vietnam or with the seventies and the economic issues it had what makes you think it will now? It may seem all crazy now but I'd wait will after november to make any declarations.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

without top military officials involved I doubt it could happen.

[TheMason]

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote:
... no matter how much a Tea Party person may scream and shout about the Tree of Liberty.

Have you considered the possibility of a Left-Wing coup? Afterall, prominent members of the Weather Underground don't think they went far enough. The New Black Panther Party blatantly intimidate white voters, and then snub the court system by refusing to show up for their trial. Then there are the Anarchists whose protests tend to turn violent whether here or in Europe.

Yes, the Tea Party movement is attracting people on the far right. Yes some of these people are racists, but not all. Nor do I think the majority have either the desire or capacity to violently overthrow the government.

I think things could get bad. We have a history of violent reaction to unpopular policies coming from the Federal government going all the way back to immediately following the Revolution (Whiskey Rebellion anyone?). I think 70 years of Keynsian economics has produced a system that is unsustainable and is about to implode on itself. And while in that time the populace has become spoiled, lazy and complacent...once we as a "me" society has to sacrifice and pull our own weight in the coming depression we will see sporadic and regional rioting and discontent.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

the Tea Party is full of idiots and racists.

[BrianEtrius]

The problem with a coup is similar to that of terrorist groups.

Yeah, you killed people. Yeah, you overthrew a government. What now? Especially with a democratic government. What are you going to do? Make it MORE democratic? Direct vote for everything? This of course, leads to voting on EVERYTHING by people who may not be experts on the matter. Furthermore, if you impose a different government, what form will it take? Will it be a monarchy? Dictatorship? Running an efficient government is extremely hard to do, so just because a coup happens does not mean the government runs better.

[Metal-Loving-Medic]

This was actually an interesting read, and I thank you for it.

I'm not even sure if a Coup would be a bad idea at this point (then again the ONLY thing I know about it is that it is a military take over so...) I indeed could be wrong on it not being a bad idea.

[TheMason]

At 7/8/10 08:40 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: the Tea Party is full of idiots and racists.

Really? And do you have any sort of empirical evidence to support this claim, or is it just pulled from your posterior?

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 7/8/10 09:17 PM, TheMason wrote:

At 7/8/10 08:40 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: the Tea Party is full of idiots and racists.

Really? And do you have any sort of empirical evidence to support this claim, or is it just pulled from your posterior?

senator called faggot
Tea Party founder Sonny Thomas posted Illegals everywhere today! So many spics makes me feel like a speck. Grrr. Wheres my gun!?

US congressman brother gets his gas line cut and shanghied by accidendtly posting his brothers adress other than the congressman himself
source 2
FBI declares it intentionally cut.

[amaterasu]

At 7/8/10 09:30 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 7/8/10 09:17 PM, TheMason wrote:

At 7/8/10 08:40 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: the Tea Party is full of idiots and racists.

Really? And do you have any sort of empirical evidence to support this claim, or is it just pulled from your posterior?

senator called faggot
Tea Party founder Sonny Thomas posted Illegals everywhere today! So many spics makes me feel like a speck. Grrr. Wheres my gun!?

US congressman brother gets his gas line cut and shanghied by accidendtly posting his brothers adress other than the congressman himself
source 2
FBI declares it intentionally cut.

Several people out of a movement in the 100,000s did bad things or talked shit. They are full of idiots and racists indeed. So dude is like, every organization full of idiots and racists?

[Stoicish]

At 7/8/10 09:51 PM, amaterasu wrote:
Several people out of a movement in the 100,000s did bad things or talked shit. They are full of idiots and racists indeed. So dude is like, every organization full of idiots and racists?

Uh....

Yes?

[amaterasu]

At 7/8/10 10:54 PM, Stoicish wrote:

At 7/8/10 09:51 PM, amaterasu wrote:
Several people out of a movement in the 100,000s did bad things or talked shit. They are full of idiots and racists indeed. So dude is like, every organization full of idiots and racists?

Uh....

Yes?

Oh. Well then...touche

[Stoicish]

Speaking of a Left-Wing coup.

Listen, you are speaking from your point of view as a partisan right-wing/conservative personality. The fact that you are so quick to defend the Tea Party suggest to me that you like to demonize the left because you really think its borderline evil.

Then again I could be making broad sweeping statements like the guy who said the Tea Party is filled with idiots and racist (I'll get to them in a minute).

I DID mention the Tea Party simply because they seem to be the ones most vocal and the moment and seeing signs, protest and hearing from Tea Party members themselves it seems to be a dream to have a violent upheaval.

Will they ever do it? No. Simple fact: they are a protest group and not a political movement. It's a protest against the left. That's all. Not a very good one either. They can't be a group because they have no central leadership, no clear defined goal and a loose make-up of people most of which have either been hijacked by the Republican party or hold their own central ideas whilst being loosley affiliated with the Tea Party.

Can I say this with a shadow of a doubt? No and I'm sure someone will want some sort of statistic out there wondering if I can back up all my claims. But I can only take what I know from reading and experiance around those group members to tell you what I think of them.

Out of all the flaws anyone wants to put them in here is one I think would be hard to refute unless you are just a die hard supporter: Out of Touch.

They are seriously out of touch of whats going on around the rest of the country and certinaly oblivious of ANYTHING going on outside of the United States.

When they pick some of the dumbest candidates ever like Rand Paul who said he wouldn't vote for the Civil Rights act, then he said he would, but he stood by his statement and being so out of touch that his idealism blocks what is essentially right.

How about Rick Barber who loves using war and military metephors to take down the evil left-wing regieme by placing political ads that literally say, "GATHER YOUR ARMIES" while having a discussion with men dressed like the fucking Founding Fathers. Or the Ad he put out with Abraham Licoln saying that taxes were a "form of slavery". I remind you that he's supposedly Tea Party backed.

Or the 16 Candidates in Florida, SIXTEEN, who all agree that the Republican ISN'T Conservative enough.

How about that woman who wanted to take Harry Reids seat and suggested that we barter chickens for our health care. Oh, and she REFUSED to back away from her statement.

Like I said. Out of touch.

For a young person like me seeing all these candidates do and say stupid stuff like this just really makes me wonder what the fuck these people think they are doing.

[BrianEtrius]

At 7/8/10 09:51 PM, amaterasu wrote: Several people out of a movement in the 100,000s did bad things or talked shit. They are full of idiots and racists indeed. So dude is like, every organization full of idiots and racists?

Well, look at it this way. When you have a equally partisan government, a "grassroots" party, and an increasingly negative media, people are only going to hear about the bad things. Look at Fox. Their main point is look how bad the Democrats are running the government. MSNBC focuses on how Republicans are stopping legislation. Are there positive political stories? Yes, but they don't draw the viewers as the negative ones do. So when you have a "grassroots" movement where people who may be involved in it show signs of racism and prejudice, the media is going to focus much more on that than what they may actually stand for. Thus, the public image of the group may not be positive.

[Ericho]

I remember Thomas Jefferson saying, "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing". While I have no doubt that Jefferson was an intelligent person, I think in an age such as now this would not be the right thing to do. I wish people had taken his words better around the Bush administration, which would have been the perfect time for a rebellion.

[Proteas]

Won't happen. Politically, people in this country are far to wrapped up in their own egos to unite in numbers large enough to stage a coup. There are too many groups and sub groups of political ideologies for people to ever get together and unite under one common political ideology and try anything, the coup would be over because of infighting before it even got up off the ground.

Plus there's the whole issue of laziness. As I have pointed out in the past and has been pointed out at least once in this topic already; if people were too lazy to get up and do something about President Bush when he was in office, President Obama will NEVER see a coup, be it by the military or any other influential entity.

What I think will happen is that based on the things the topic starter pointed out; people will start to question wether the "change" they elected to the office of the president and every other office of the government in 2008 was really worth it. Going by the numbers, democrats don't stand a snowball's chance of coming out well off in the upcoming elections, and the things they've worked on for the last two years are about to be dismantled.

And when it happens, I'm just going to chuckle quietly to myself when everyone on this board flips out and starts talking about how stupid the majority of the voters are for voting the way they did... because everybody knows how smart the voters are until they disagree with your political affiliation.

[TheMason]

At 7/8/10 11:13 PM, Stoicish wrote: Speaking of a Left-Wing coup.

Listen, you are speaking from your point of view as a partisan right-wing/conservative personality. The fact that you are so quick to defend the Tea Party suggest to me that you like to demonize the left because you really think its borderline evil.

Hold on for a moment. You should never point you're finger at someone because you're only pointing three back towards yourself (this comes from President Clinton who had his famous "thumb" gesture).

I am not partisan, nor am I right-wing or conservative. Instead I'm a Libertarian...a moderate. I almost voted for Obama because eight years of Bush and the vocal "social-conservatives" soured me on the Republicans.

All I want out of Government is sound fiscal and public policy. But what we have is a system that swings between supporting the special interest groups of either the Democrats or Republicans...with little focus on what is for the best of the whole.

Nor do I personally demonize the Left. In fact I think my many Liberal friends are good, honest people who think they way they think out of good, honest and even nobel intentions. I just think that Keynsian and semi-socialist policies are leading many countries to ruin. And therefore the public policy the Democrats are pursuing is just plain wrong.

In the future I would suggest you restrain your impulse to knee-jerk.

I DID mention the Tea Party simply because they seem to be the ones most vocal and the moment and seeing signs, protest and hearing from Tea Party members themselves it seems to be a dream to have a violent upheaval.

And that is fair enough. Like you said later they are a protest group...and yes they are a political movement. Don't confuse a political movement with a political party. The characteristics you described as being necessary for a movement are defining characteristics of a party. Movements can be much more decentralizied and nebulous.

That said...

One of the things about political movements is they tend to draw in people who normally don't participate in politics. These people range from radicals to average people who have been "turned-on" to politics because of an issue or issue set. So while I think that most Tea Partiers are middle class people who are tired of being squeezed...I do know there are some radicals out there who would love to see the system burn.

But, and once again my original point: you have the same radicals on the Left as well.

Out of all the flaws anyone wants to put them in here is one I think would be hard to refute unless you are just a die hard supporter: Out of Touch.

They are seriously out of touch of whats going on around the rest of the country and certinaly oblivious of ANYTHING going on outside of the United States.

While I have some things to say on this...it deviates from the subject of a potential coup.

One of the things I would like to throw in here is not all coups involve the military. Just as often you have politicians who declare the current ruler/president/premeir/prime minister as incapacitated and seize power. Although they just as often fail...

[RedFlames]

We need help, thats a given right now.
Our country would still be the most powerful in the world unapposed without terrorism if it hadnt been for the Truman Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary being taken to the world stage. The Western hemisphere would be much more stable.

[gumOnShoe]

The main thing missing in the recipe right now is a crisis big enough to make people believe in a cause and that violence is the only way to overcome it.

First you need a massive dose of poverty, probably 30% unemployment for a series of years. Then you need to disfranchise your military's faith in the government and have a leadership that things the Military can "get it done." And then you need to either get the entire military on your side, or create a private one capable of coming to power and keeping power through military might...

The U.S. is fairly large & distributed, so it makes it difficult to take it over by taking out one man in D.C. or even the 700 you would have to if you couldn't get them to join you or imprison them. You'd still have to deal with governors, state militias, armed forces not loyal to the over throwing of the government.

I could see it happen, but you'd need the perfect storm of economic disasters, social upheaval (race/border/gays), and a cause everyone believed in enough to follow your idiotic plan to throw over the government.

[aviewaskewed]

At 7/8/10 08:40 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: the Tea Party is full of idiots and racists.

The guy who hates muslims and gays is bitching about racism?

Lol hypocrisy!

[Warforger]

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: Could it happen? Who knows?

In these times our country is quite possibly more polorized and seperated than ever. We live in a political world, at the moment, where more people are aligning themselves to liberalism or conservatism with more people going to conservatism. The gap between them are widening and they seem to demonize each other all the time for political game or a fools argument between Americans.

We have crippling underemployment with nearly 20% of Americans being underemployed or unemployed. This is leaving people with intense animosity towards the US government and buisnesses.

According to an article made by an amatuer, which shouldn't be immediatly tossed aside, but shouldn't be taken in as a professional opinion.

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: We have a terrible gulf disaster.

Nothing to do with the gubmit. Also we had Hurricane Katrina, the San Fransico Earthquake etc.

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: Two wars that seem endless.

We also had the Cold War where defense spending made up almost 75% spent by the government.

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: Serious doubts on the spending that Congress does.

Just like the multiple depressions we had in our history?

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: Not to mention the approval rating of Congress is at 22% while the President is at 44% an all time low for him.

That didn't stop Bush, or Hoover, or Madison etc. from keeping the government.

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: Yes, the military, has a very high approval rating of up to 74%. People seem to put all their trust in the military yet have no trust in our civilian leadership.

Because the civilian leadership is in charge of the military thus the military just does its job? Also Modern Warfare

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: To me we have all the ingrediants with no cooking pot for it to happen. Our system is too well defined for a Coup d'Etat to happen in this country no matter how much a Tea Party person may scream and shout about the Tree of Liberty.

Ha, TEA party, last notable thing they did was try to change the Texas history textbooks to be the white washed pro-Christian history it isn't

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: If there was ever a time for a Coup to happen in this country it could of happened during the Great Depression, oh, and it almost DID! Short story, if you don't want to read the page, is that a group of business leaders from Wall Street set themselves up to oust FDR and set up a Facist regieme in the United States out of anger from FDR's new policies with the New Deal. They tried to get Marine General Smedley Butler to help, but made the fatal mistake of not figuring out if he'd be okay with it or not. It failed before it even could get to the planning stages because he told Congress on them.

Which is kind of scary because now we are in a serious similar scenario like last time. Crippling unemployment, business leaders and Americans furious at Washington, crippling war, etc, etc.

Only...it just doesn't seem likely and very improbable. In the end if it happened you'd have to have military leaders who would listen to an order like that, then the Pentegon to agree, then the bases to agree, then (in the end) the American people to want something like this to happen which leads to our great free country.

While things are similar to the Great Depression, they're far from the same.

At 7/7/10 01:35 AM, Stoicish wrote: We are a people raised with the idea of being revolutionaries. Take away our freedoms or do anything that doesn't seem kosher and we'd get pissed. Not violent, but the possibility is always there for us to do so.

Thoughts on this subject?

Yes and the Supreme Court agree's going out of its way to violate State's rights in the name of the 2nd Amendment.

[Stoicish]

At 7/11/10 02:33 PM, Cirilo wrote: The USA is not as relevant today as it used to be. So stop thinking the USA is the center of the World.

Today, the World powers are as follows: China, India, and Russia. The rest are just a bunch of crybabies who are too concerned about not having the latest iPhone or watever.

Well, since a majority of us and myself are citizens of this country I figured this topic would be fairly fucking relevant. I realize that the US isn't the center of the world, but it's the center of my world because...ya know...I fucking live here.

Moron.

Also, what makes a classification as a World Power? Well lets break it down then. It sould be GDP, Military Strength and the ability to influance politically other states.

China-It's GDP is rising, but they have yet to reach the ecinomic level the United States has gained even while we are in a crippling depression. In terms of military they may have large numbers, but they do not match in technology especially in naval and small arms strength. They also hold pretty much little to no political influance world wide.

India- Again has a rising GDP but does not match the ecinomic level the US has gained even while we are in a recession. They have a shitty military compared to ours and they only hold influance in their own region.

Russia-Blatant fact is that they hold little to no great influance or strength that they held while they are the USSR and still have a long time to even think to recover back to that kind of power.

Also, many people argue that we possibly are starting to live in a world wide intergrated system that soon enough there really isn't going to be a superpower anymore.