Universal Healthcare - Yes.

[RedSkunk]

A new study by researchers at Harvard Medical School and Public Citizen estimates that national health insurance could save at least $286 billion annually on paperwork, enough to cover all of the uninsured and to provide full prescription drug coverage for everyone in the United States.

From Kucinich.us --

My plan is called Enhanced Medicare for All -- a universal, single-payer system of national health insurance, carefully phased in over 10 years. It addresses everyone's needs, including the 45 million Americans without coverage and those paying exorbitant rates for health insurance. This approach to health care emphasizes patient choice, and puts doctors and patients in control of the system, not insurance companies. Coverage will be more complete than private insurance plans, encourage prevention and include prescription drugs, dental care, mental health care, and alternative and complementary medicine.

This plan is based on a bill I introduced together with Congressman John Conyers of Michigan, H.R. 676. Under this plan individuals would not have to pay premiums, deductibles, or co-pays.

...

Health care is currently dominated by insurance firms and HMOs, institutions that are more bureaucratic and costly than Medicare. Right now, private companies are charging about 18 percent for administration, while the cost of Medicare administration is only 3 percent.

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It's important to understand that insurance companies make more money by NOT providing health care. A single-payer system can save money by investing in preventive care, as well as by cutting out the insurance companies' profits.

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Funding for my health plan will come primarily from existing government health care spending (more than $1 trillion) and a phased-in tax on employers of 7.7 percent (almost $1 trillion). Employers who provide coverage are already paying 8.5 percent on average. That would raise about $920 billion. In addition to that, there's already over a trillion dollars being spent a year in local, state and federal dollars for health care. The American people are already paying for universal health care, they're just not getting it.

...

The type of system I am proposing -- privately-delivered health care, publicly financed -- has worked well in other countries, none of which spend as much per capita on health care as the United States. The cost-effectiveness of a single-payer system has been affirmed in many studies, including those conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting Office. The GAO has said: 'If the US were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administrative costs (10% to private insurers) would be more than enough to offset the expense of universal coverage.'

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Over the years, groups and individuals as diverse as Consumers Union, labor unions, the CEO of General Motors, the editorial boards of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and St. Louis Post Dispatch, and Physicians for a National Health Program have endorsed a single-payer approach. In the 'Physicians Proposal for National Health Care,' 7,782 physicians agreed that, 'Proposals that would retain the roles of private insurers -- such as calls for tax-credits, Medicaid/CHIP expansions, and pushing more seniors into private HMO's -- are prescriptions for failure.'"

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Say yes to universal healthcare in America.

[tre-x]

*not reading full post* OK!!

[Ravens-Grin]

Hmm, Kucinich I do not favor because he would fail horribly in balancing the budget. This is a good example of what he'd do. Insurance is a multi billion dollar sector of the economy. So basically we'd have the government pay for insurance so that the citizens can pay 1 dollar less for administrative costs? That to me is silly and plain retarded. The government should have a minimal impact on the economy. The only thing the government should do is try to prevent a recession, not create one by destroying a huge sector of the economy.

[LadyGrace]

These people constantly claim universal healthcare is going to save so much money. However, what kind of healthcare are Americans going to recieve? My dad is an endodontist (he does only root canals), and he's constantly recieving patients whose teeth have been completely fucked up by an approved dentist on their healthcare plan who didn't know what the hell he was doing, primarily becuase those dentists who are accepted by insurance companies, or "free" becuase of a healthcare plan, totally suck primarily due to the fact that they get paid next to nothing. Why is a doctor going to work his ass of just to get fucked over with the bill? This is why healthcare in Canada totally sucks! They have a national healthcare plan, however, becuase of it their doctors are some of the worst. That's why they come to the US to get major surgeries and dental work done. Universal healthcare in the US is a BAD idea. It will only lead to shoddy work from barely liscensed doctors.

[tre-x]

or "free" becuase of a healthcare plan, totally suck primarily due to the fact that they get paid next to nothing. Why is a doctor going to work his ass of just to get fucked over with the bill? This is why healthcare in Canada totally sucks! They have a national healthcare plan, however, becuase of it their doctors are some of the worst. That's why they come to the US to get major surgeries and dental work done. Universal healthcare in the US is a BAD idea. It will only lead to shoddy work from barely liscensed doctors.

hey there is another second half to your siggy:
GOd is dead-niezchie
niezchie is dead-God
which is right? hmm

[LadyGrace]

I would make a witty remark for yours... but... I don't get it... =(

[tre-x]

oh well. It doesn't matter.

[tre-x]

my siggy is retarded i just made it up on the spot. I will change it soon. How about "It's not aboutwether you win or lose, Its about wether I win or lose."

[pierrot-le-fou]

LadyGrace has a good point. Not all doctors are as good as they should be. HealthCare plans can go ahead and be as good as they can be, but if the care the patient recieves isn't good, whats the use in having the healthcare plan?

[LadyGrace]

At 3/26/04 10:24 PM, dark_trex wrote: my siggy is retarded i just made it up on the spot. I will change it soon. How about "It's not aboutwether you win or lose, Its about wether I win or lose."

Or... "it's not about whether I win or lose, it's how I call you lame." But, not quite this quote, becuase it sucks. =( I R not funny.

[RedSkunk]

At 3/26/04 10:00 PM, dark_trex wrote: *not reading full post* OK!!

That's probably better.

At 3/26/04 10:06 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote: Hmm, Kucinich I do not favor because he would fail horribly in balancing the budget.

As poorly as Bush? Unlikely.

This is a good example of what he'd do. Insurance is a multi billion dollar sector of the economy. So basically we'd have the government pay for insurance so that the citizens can pay 1 dollar less for administrative costs?

No. Society at large would pay less for the administrative costs. The citizens themselves wouldn't pay a dime. And they would all be insured. And prescription drugs, dental care, mental healthcare, and more, would all be included.

I don't know about you, perhaps you live in a more affluent section of society, but back when me and my parents did have insurance - blue cross/blue shield, cheapest out there, it did not cover prescriptions, or dental, and especially not mental.

At 3/26/04 10:14 PM, LadyGrace wrote: and he's constantly recieving patients whose teeth have been completely fucked up by an approved dentist on their healthcare plan who didn't know what the hell he was doing, primarily becuase those dentists who are accepted by insurance companies, or "free" becuase of a healthcare plan, totally suck primarily due to the fact that they get paid next to nothing.

But this doesn't have much bearing on a situation where the US has universal healthcare. People would be able to visit whomever they want - compared to now, where they have to go to whichever cheap-ie doctor their HMO plan tells them to go to.

The doctors in the US would still be paid however much they are now. The doctors would still be private, naturally. If anything, universal healthcare would describe this problem.

Why is a doctor going to work his ass of just to get fucked over with the bill? This is why healthcare in Canada totally sucks! They have a national healthcare plan, however, becuase of it their doctors are some of the worst. That's why they come to the US to get major surgeries and dental work done.

Firstly, I don't see the correlation between Canada's national healthcare plan, and their supposedly poor doctors. Do the doctors in Canada get stiffed on the bills? I hadn't heard of that. Regardless, a national healthcare system in the US would not change how much the doctors got paid, would it?

Universal healthcare in the US is a BAD idea. It will only lead to shoddy work from barely liscensed doctors.

I don't see the reason why it would.

[RedSkunk]

At 3/26/04 10:45 PM, Red_Skank wrote: If anything, universal healthcare would describe this problem.

"If anything, universal healthcare would alleviate this problem"

[LadyGrace]

At 3/26/04 10:45 PM, Red_Skank wrote: But this doesn't have much bearing on a situation where the US has universal healthcare. People would be able to visit whomever they want - compared to now, where they have to go to whichever cheap-ie doctor their HMO plan tells them to go to.

The doctors in the US would still be paid however much they are now. The doctors would still be private, naturally. If anything, universal healthcare would describe this problem.

How can they be paid the same? If you've seen the drastic toll that government implemented healthcare has taken upon the medical field, you would be shocked. A nationalized heathcare plan means more unnecessary paperwork for the dorctor to fill out (or get fined for if he doesn't have the time to do it), more unacceptable and rude patients (or junkies), and constantly being stiffed on your payments (in case you haven't noticed, the US government does not like to let go of it's money). Nationalized healthcare is only going to cause more problems... In fact, now the government is implementing measures that are basically the beginnings of universalized healthcare, and the medical field has already deteriorated immensely! Many brilliant doctors do not want to work in a profession in which they are basically slaves to the government. Under a nationalized healthcare plan, the doctors will be told what hours they can work, what patients they will take, how much they can make, etc. It would only cause more agrivation than it is worth for them. When people are already willing to sue them at the drop of a hat... what modivation will they have once a nationalized healthcare plan is in place? It causes too many hindrances.

[RedSkunk]

At 3/26/04 11:01 PM, LadyGrace wrote: How can they be paid the same?

Why would they be paid less than they are now? Kucinich's plan (I'm just using it for reference, totally split from Kucinich, the prez candidate) totally balances out, without factoring in 'pay cuts' for doctors or anything.

If you've seen the drastic toll that government implemented healthcare has taken upon the medical field, you would be shocked. A nationalized heathcare plan means more unnecessary paperwork for the dorctor to fill out

True, the doctors might have a bit more paperwork. But there are aids to do much of this. This is primarily because the entire paperwork middleman (the insurance company) is taken out.

more unacceptable and rude patients (or junkies),

Don't be dumb - why would socialized healthcare lead to more rude patients? This change by itself would not.

and constantly being stiffed on your payments

But the gov't would assuredly pay. I haven't seen any incidents of the gov't not paying doctors. Have you?

Nationalized healthcare is only going to cause more problems...

Perhaps it might burden the doctors with a bit more paperwork. But it would benefit the society as a whole.

In fact, now the government is implementing measures that are basically the beginnings of universalized healthcare, and the medical field has already deteriorated immensely!

Like what? And don't cite the latest bill that partially pays for a bit of some peoples prescription drugs - that's utterly worthless for most people...

Many brilliant doctors do not want to work in a profession in which they are basically slaves to the government. Under a nationalized healthcare plan, the doctors will be told what hours they can work, what patients they will take, how much they can make, etc.

No they wouldn't!! This plan cuts out the middleman (the insurance companies) and instead insures people directly. It makes no claims to control the doctors.

When people are already willing to sue them at the drop of a hat... what modivation will they have once a nationalized healthcare plan is in place? It causes too many hindrances.

You're only looking at the doctors (understandably, since you know someone, but..) and many of your conclusions seem to draw upon hearsay and demonizations of other countries socialized healthcare systems.

[RedSkunk]

At this point in time, I'm advocating a system similar to Germany and Frances - where the gov't only takes over the insurance bit of the deal - to insure all Americans. England, for instance, has an entirely state-operated system. Keep in mind that the World Health Organization has repeatedly called France's healthcare system the best in the world.

[LadyGrace]

And how do you suppose because of this Universalized Healthcare plan that our government would not become far more socialized? Universalized Healthcare in and of itself is Socialized medicine. In fact, many of the measures that "benifit society" specifically come from the Social doctrine. You say it benifits society, but who are you to say who should get the benifits. Also, in France, where socialized medicine has actually worked, they have had to start forcing people to pay for their medicine because they take their medical system for granted. You give "society" too much credit. While many people are logical and rational, many people are stupid and selfish. Once you do some of them a favor... they want more and more. The best thing to do is to let them help themselves instead of constantly relying on the government to provide for them.

[TheWakingDeath]

there's not reason why, by cutting out the insurance companies we'd be necessarily depriving the doctors of their wages. socialized medicine in canada has nothing to do with the quality of it's doctors. i fail to see how allowing everyone a chance to get medical attention affects their wages if they're getting paid one way or the other. no one should have to walk around with all kinds of sickness and injury just because they can't afford to see a doctor.

i'm sorry, but if i get hit by a car and my organs are hanging out, i want to go to the nearest hospital, not the one my insurance plan says i have to go to

[RedSkunk]

At 3/26/04 11:26 PM, LadyGrace wrote: And how do you suppose because of this Universalized Healthcare plan that our government would not become far more socialized?

Well, we could look at Canada or Britian I suppose. Neither of them are really that much more 'socialized' than the US (relative to other countries, such as France or Germany).

Britian is much less 'socialized' than other European countries, why I was partly surprised at reading that their entire healthcare system is state-owned.

You say it benifits society, but who are you to say who should get the benifits.

I think it's screwy that people have to pay for their health.

Who am I to say who gets the benefits? I'm not being entirely selfish here, I don't think. This would benefit society as a whole.

According to the March 2003 issue of the AARP Bulletin, the American healthcare system is in a state of collapse. In a comparison of quality healthcare by the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States ranked 37th, coming in behind such nations as Andorra, Malta, Oman and Singapore.

Despite the average $4,600 per capita spent for healthcare in the United States — which is more than twice the average of other countries, such as France ($2,125) and Japan ($1,759)
source

The French healthcare system has been in place and has continued to evolve for more than one hundred years, and was classified the “best health system in the world” by the World Health Organization (WHO) in June 2000. It permits all French citizens access to treatment and to the latest discoveries in medical research. The success of the French health system is evidenced in the general health of the French population. Their life expectancy increases more than three months each year, and French women have the second highest life expectancy rate in the world.

For more than 96 percent of the population, medical care is either entirely free or is reimbursed 100 percent. The French also have the right to choose among healthcare providers, regardless of their income level. For example, they can consult a variety of doctors and specialists or choose a public, private, university or general hospital.
source

Also, in France, where socialized medicine has actually worked, they have had to start forcing people to pay for their medicine because they take their medical system for granted.

What? Source of this? That second source is the French government, and I see nothing about people having to pay for their meds because they were talking healthcare for granted.

Nevermind the fact that I see no problem with taking an adequete healthcare system for granted.

You give "society" too much credit. While many people are logical and rational, many people are stupid and selfish. Once you do some of them a favor... they want more and more. The best thing to do is to let them help themselves instead of constantly relying on the government to provide for them.

Where do you get this from? Do you have any proof that people in France are now weaker because they can take adequete healthcare for granted? Are they pining away for more government help?

At 3/26/04 11:29 PM, Izuamoto wrote: i'm sorry, but if i get hit by a car and my organs are hanging out, i want to go to the nearest hospital, not the one my insurance plan says i have to go to

If I get hit by a car, and go to the nearest hospital, I don't want to walk in, and hear the first damn question, "Do you have health insurance?"

[LadyGrace]

At 3/26/04 11:29 PM, Izuamoto wrote: i'm sorry, but if i get hit by a car and my organs are hanging out, i want to go to the nearest hospital, not the one my insurance plan says i have to go to

I'm not saying that you shouldn't get emergency care, however, that happens all the time. Becuase someone (usually an illegal alien) gets their emergency care an is unable to pay the bill, the hospital is forced to carge higher prices towards the patients who CAN pay their bills. Not only that, but because of this cycle, the lines get longer and longer, the paper work gets longer and longer, and going to the doctor becomes like going to the DMV... you'd rather have an arm chopped off than to deal with that madness.

[RedSkunk]

At 3/26/04 11:50 PM, LadyGrace wrote: And going to the doctor becomes like going to the DMV... you'd rather have an arm chopped off than to deal with that madness.

The reason why the DMV sucks ass, is because they only hire old women who work incredibly slow, and are incredibly crabby all the time.

[LadyGrace]

But I say... let's agree to disagree. I know we can't change eachothers minds... but I still love you all. Now, let's dance!!!

[RedSkunk]

At 3/26/04 11:54 PM, LadyGrace wrote: Now, let's dance!!!

Woot-teh! Did the keg arrive? I thought we were going to wait until November when bush is defeated. No matter!

[bumcheekcity]

I am not goignto read the first post, but universal healthcare is a groovy thing.

[CapitalistSocialist]

N-H-S
N-H-S
N-H-S
N-H-S
N-H-S
N-H-S
N-H-S

Thank god for the national health service! May the tories never take it away from us!

[bumcheekcity]

At 3/27/04 05:03 PM, -Jamster- wrote: Thank god for the national health service! May the tories never take it away from us!

You just KNWO they're going to try, dont you?

[CapitalistSocialist]

At 3/27/04 05:26 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: You just KNWO they're going to try, dont you?

They don't say that Michael Howard has something of the night about him for nothing do they?
He will stalk into NHS hospitals in the dead of night and will turn them into BUPA and PPP hospitals. Beware of him!

[Jimsween]

Wait wait wait... Congressman? Haha, almost fooled me for a second, only represenatives call themselves congressmen...

Like I'm going to be in favor of a bill introduced by a represenative.... How stupid do you think I am?

[Der-Ubermensch]

At 3/26/04 10:20 PM, dark_trex wrote: Why is a doctor going to work his ass of just to get fucked over with the bill? This is why healthcare in Canada totally sucks! They have a national healthcare plan, however, becuase of it their doctors are some of the worst. : hey there is another second half to your siggy:
GOd is dead-niezchie
niezchie is dead-God
which is right? hmm

You have to inderstand that healthcare in Canada may not be as top-notch as in America, but doctors here treat EVERYONE, rich or poor, equally. Life is priceless, but then again, Americans are good at placing price tags on pretty much anything...

[RedSkunk]

At 3/28/04 01:58 AM, Jimsween wrote: Like I'm going to be in favor of a bill introduced by a represenative.... How stupid do you think I am?

Well, it was more of an example plan for a system of socialized healthcare in the US, one which I don't see any immediate problems with.

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 3/26/04 10:45 PM, llIl wrote:

No. Society at large would pay less for the administrative costs. The citizens themselves wouldn't pay a dime. And they would all be insured. And prescription drugs, dental care, mental healthcare, and more, would all be included.

Sounds like the Dave Barry in '04 tax campaign promise:
"Everybody would pay less [taxes]. You, personally, would pay nothing. "

And this notion that the government would pay for it is bogus. The government can only spend what it gets from taxes. So instead of being stuck in a crappy HMO with no options and long waits, you're stuck in a government HMO with no options and long waits. If government can complicate such an easy issue like taxes, imagine what it could do with healthcare.

"OK, Mr. Johnson, you wish to schedule a check up? First, you'll need to fill out Form 2850EZ, unless you're getting a check up jointly with a head of household, in which case you'll need to fill out part (a) of form 4543Q unless you are blind, which you can enter 0 for part (d), and would you like to contribute $3 to the Presidential Election Fund?"

Oh, and if you think fighting insurance compainies over claims is bad, wait till you try fighting the federal government.