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At 7/14/10 09:09 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: I'm not going to argue that Israel civilian deaths aren't tragic. But I am going to say that the death of Palestinian civilians wont fix it. War is just this whole social justice concept blown out of proportion, really. Kill your guys cause you killed my guys. What is there at the end? Lots of dead guys
No one wins, no army has dissapeared.

you call terrorists civilians, that's why so many palestinian are dead. and it is our fault that hamas never agreed to stop the shooting? we've waited 8 years before gaza war trying to make peace with them, offering them Judea and Samaria. and they declined.

But you can't tell me that you blame some impressionable teenager for getting caught up in something he doesn't understand, which is unfortunately what both sides prey on. And he's the one who dies. Not the man who campaigns and makes speeches about the evils of this or that and those guys over there being our true enemy.

impressionable teenager who is more than 30 years old, with a wife and 4 children, which understand prefectly the quran.

The problem with Israel is they're probably one of the more developed nations of the middle east, and they are squabbling with terrorist infantry. Israel seems to think most of The Middle East is a threat and that there's this global conspiracy against them. Europe and America and picking on them, Iran is going to nuke them, Palestine will try to eradicate them, Arabian media is running a smear campaign against them. Just like that, the world seems to have magicaly orientated itself anti-Israeli.

that's exactly what "liberals" like you said before WWII. why most of the middle east countries executed and pursued jews?

This, for some reason, justifies the actions of the IDF and government police. Piracy, identity fraud, war crimes, attacking UN buildings, a very high level of collateral damage. They wont even allow the UN do an investigation, Israel decided that they'd do it themselves. I literaly can not see the viewpoint you people have. I mean, you with internet acess and electricty and water. Are you really in fear for your life right now?

Piracy - not when terrorists attack our soldiers. identity fraud - terrorists disguising themselves as humanitarians. war crimes - why can't we kill the ones who killed our civilians? why hamas never being accused for war crimes? UN buildings - buildings where hamas hides rockets and shoot them, hamas itself burnt UN summer camp. collateral damage - examples? won't even allow?! UN already did it's 'investigation', israel - guilty. hamas - acquitted because sderot is a military base.
the people in sderot are, you see, the IDF duty, and that must be new for you, is to protect every civilian of israel. wheter he lives in Tel-Aviv, sderot or the 'Territories'.

Sylvos

Honestly, I think the Iran situation is a gigantic power play. They threatened military action over Israel's action towards Palestine and didn't deliver. On the off chance they decide to use what uranium they've gotten their hands on, I think they'll mostly use it for power. They may well build nukes, but more as a political tool than one of the military.

I think the world has agreed that no one wants nuclear war, very few people would be foolish enough. We know enough about nuclear arms to know everyone is lying about the amount they have, and not even North Korea wants to know the real answer to that question.

And I think you're a fool if you're going to dismiss the world for fear that your country could be mishandling the situation. It's this self-rightous attitude that's inflating the situation internationaly and you can't expect when you treat it so emotionally for people to not question your decisions. "Al-Jazeer doesn't agree with us, they must want to see us burn to the ground. And the BBC, and The Guardian, and The Sunday Independant. All these newspapers who, incidentaly, also speak out against UK and American war crimes. It's almost as thought they have some sort of journalistic moral obligation!" I don't understand what you mean by Pro-Israel, again to me it seems like you're saying someone who supports the Israeli state should support the war. I don't think that's true at all!

Hamas are, like Iran, bluffing. It's just a tactic to get people riled. Hamas know they could never destroy Israel. Jeeps vs. Tanks is a real no brainer.

Security measures to prevent terrorism within Israel such as suicide bombings is tight border patrols, not allowed Palestinian citizens into the country etc. - war time border policies, if you will.
It is not knocking the homes of Palestinians on the Gaza strip and sending the majority of the aid money to Israeli settlements. Of course, though, we've already seen Israeli media deny their being a humanitarian crisis.

Please stop looking backwards and look at the current situation and how the government are reaction to it. Is it an objective, fair handed judgement that understands that the people of Palestine are not to be punished for Hamas activity?

Satan Brian

I never said that. I'm calling the militants, because that's what they are. The civilians are the people who are dying without every actualy engaging with the IDF.

The identity fraud I was referring to was the falsifying of European passports. This breechs the international law you seem to defend yourselves with so rightously. There's been no apology or attempt to explain, but they call removal of Israeli embassises from Ireland and UK "regrettable". I think they spelt "inevitable" wrong, to be honest.

War Crime = white phosphorous gas. An painyfully disfiguring and fatal in the most tedious manner of weapon. At schools. Knocking of people's homes, and don't citate the Geneva convention. Nation or not, it's infringing on basic human rights. To build a house and not have it caved by another nations army.

Collateral damage would be the huge amounts of farmland, bridges, road and housing the IDF have destroyed. Aswell as civilian death rates.

:the people in sderot are, you see, the IDF duty, and that must be new for you, is to protect every civilian of israel. wheter he lives in Tel-Aviv, sderot or the 'Territories'.

What a disturbingly Extreme Nationalist view. "We must unite all german-speaking peoples".

At 7/14/10 10:24 PM, therealsylvos wrote: Tell me have you ever been frisked to walk into a shopping mall? Got a once over with a wand to grab a cup of coffee? Every Israeli has.

Right. Like a large amount of people panicking about something that could kill them is uncommon. Every American in 2001 was paranoid after 9/11, yet every terrorist attack after 9/11 against the US was laughable, America was so sensitive during that time that when Hezbollah condemned 9/11 the US took them off the terrorist list. Hezbollah, the army of Lebanon who attacks Israel (albeit only military targets), who has massive support in Lebanon, was no longer terrorist after condemning 9/11.

Thats not even to mention the multiple red scares and swine flu, SARS, AIDS etc. Just because a large amount of people become paranoid doesn't mean it happens everywhere and to everyone.

At 7/15/10 02:34 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 7/14/10 10:24 PM, therealsylvos wrote: Tell me have you ever been frisked to walk into a shopping mall? Got a once over with a wand to grab a cup of coffee? Every Israeli has.

Right. Like a large amount of people panicking about something that could kill them is uncommon. Every American in 2001 was paranoid after 9/11, yet every terrorist attack after 9/11 against the US was laughable, America was so sensitive during that time that when Hezbollah condemned 9/11 the US took them off the terrorist list. Hezbollah, the army of Lebanon who attacks Israel (albeit only military targets), who has massive support in Lebanon, was no longer terrorist after condemning 9/11.

you know that in second lebanon war (2006) civilians were hiding for months in shelters becuase hundreds of rockets were shot by hezbollah on them. al jazeera told you that they attacked only military targets right? americans are not threatened every day by another terrorist organization. israelis learned over the years not to trust palestinians, for example: the oslo agreement (1993), yassar arafat promised to recognize israel and renounced terrorism and yitzhak rabin who believed him in his foolishness agreed to withdrawal israeli forces from gaza strip and west bank. by the situation today you can guess who did his part.

At 7/15/10 11:39 PM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/15/10 02:34 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 7/14/10 10:24 PM, therealsylvos wrote: Tell me have you ever been frisked to walk into a shopping mall? Got a once over with a wand to grab a cup of coffee? Every Israeli has.

Right. Like a large amount of people panicking about something that could kill them is uncommon. Every American in 2001 was paranoid after 9/11, yet every terrorist attack after 9/11 against the US was laughable, America was so sensitive during that time that when Hezbollah condemned 9/11 the US took them off the terrorist list. Hezbollah, the army of Lebanon who attacks Israel (albeit only military targets), who has massive support in Lebanon, was no longer terrorist after condemning 9/11.

you know that in second lebanon war (2006) civilians were hiding for months in shelters becuase hundreds of rockets were shot by hezbollah on them.

Yah they were used as shields IIRC. Far from actually firing missiles at them, and far from what Palestinian terrorists do in West Bank and Gaza.

At 7/15/10 11:39 PM, satanbrain wrote: al jazeera told you that they attacked only military targets right?

No I don't follow Al Jazeera. But I'd say it isn't anymore credible then Israeli sources since Israeli sources tend to be stupidly biased.

At 7/15/10 11:39 PM, satanbrain wrote: americans are not threatened every day by another terrorist organization.

Yes they are. Hezbollah keeps saying "AMERICAN AND ISRAELI IMPERIALISM" not "ISRAELI IMPERIALISM" since the US is the only western nation which supports everything Israel does.

At 7/15/10 11:39 PM, satanbrain wrote: israelis learned over the years not to trust palestinians, for example: the oslo agreement (1993), yassar arafat promised to recognize israel and renounced terrorism and yitzhak rabin who believed him in his foolishness agreed to withdrawal israeli forces from gaza strip and west bank. by the situation today you can guess who did his part.

Yah, Hamas gained power and wrested it from Fatah. Not fair because everything had changed since then.

wow I'm actually semi-impressed with this board, people actually defending isreal? I thought it would be a bunch of 14 year olds saying death to isreal because its a trend to hate on them nowadays because they aren't the underdog.

Do people honestly believe a developed nation like isreal would bully Palestine just to bully it? there is a reason why they are doing what they are doing. Look at isreals location, they are surrounded by people that hate them.

At 7/18/10 04:57 AM, Rigormort1s wrote: wow I'm actually semi-impressed with this board, people actually defending isreal? I thought it would be a bunch of 14 year olds saying death to isreal because its a trend to hate on them nowadays because they aren't the underdog.

Do people honestly believe a developed nation like isreal would bully Palestine just to bully it? there is a reason why they are doing what they are doing. Look at isreals location, they are surrounded by people that hate them.

Look at Israel, they are surrounded by people who hate them. Therefore it is okay for Israel to force 75% of Palestinians to live below the poverty line? Who gives a shit that somebody hates Israel? Everybody hates Russia, that does not make them okay to exterminate Chechnya if they feel like it.

The MAIN reason Israel is hated today is being they are refusing Palestinian right to self-determination. The MAIN REASON countries in the middle east dislike Israel is because they fear Israel will invade their territory.

Israel is not an exception. If Israel chooses to ethnically cleanse a country they are occupying, then they are no better then Rwandans killing Tutus. Yes, Jews had a tough time during World War 2. But so did the Russians, who suffered just as much. No body is making excuses for Russians though. Although people in this thread, are making excuses. :[ for Israel.

At 7/11/10 02:54 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:24 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/11/10 01:33 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I don't see how its brutalization when Israel is putting sanctions on palestine for a territory government who is purposelly shooting rockets into israel and sending suicide bombers while refusing to start peaceful negotiations.

it's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence.

but they do under the British Mandate after the Ottoman empire dissolved after Participating in WWI. so technically they have the total right.

Are you debating the merits of that right at face value, or just from the perspective of Israel?

Because if you judge it at face value than you will quickly dismiss it as imperialist fascism, no better then Nazi German claims on the rest of Europe. I mean what right do the British have in the 19th century, when Palestinians have been living their for thousands of years.

"It's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence."

Also Israel refuses to recognize Palestine's right to existence, which they prove with action. Refusing to reconize each other's right to existance doesn't make any difference though. It doesn't matter if in the constitution of Palestine, they refuse to recognize Israel. That doesn't affect negotiations at all. Countries do not need to have a contradiction free constitution to interact with negotiations. The obstacle in the Palestinian\Israeli conflict is not that Palestine refuses to recognize Israel.

At 7/19/10 08:53 AM, zcult wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:54 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:24 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/11/10 01:33 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I don't see how its brutalization when Israel is putting sanctions on palestine for a territory government who is purposelly shooting rockets into israel and sending suicide bombers while refusing to start peaceful negotiations.

it's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence.

but they do under the British Mandate after the Ottoman empire dissolved after Participating in WWI. so technically they have the total right.

Are you debating the merits of that right at face value, or just from the perspective of Israel?

Because if you judge it at face value than you will quickly dismiss it as imperialist fascism, no better then Nazi German claims on the rest of Europe. I mean what right do the British have in the 19th century, when Palestinians have been living their for thousands of years.

oh really? they lived under king david's reign too right? they lived hardly 500 years in israel.

"It's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence."

Also Israel refuses to recognize Palestine's right to existence, which they prove with action. Refusing to reconize each other's right to existance doesn't make any difference though. It doesn't matter if in the constitution of Palestine, they refuse to recognize Israel. That doesn't affect negotiations at all. Countries do not need to have a contradiction free constitution to interact with negotiations. The obstacle in the Palestinian\Israeli conflict is not that Palestine refuses to recognize Israel.

the previous prime minister, ehud olmert did recognize Palestine's right to exsist and offered the lands they asked for but they refused to recognize israel! we refuse to have another muslim country led by terrorists and oppressing civilians fighting us, is that too much?

At 7/19/10 08:53 AM, zcult wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:54 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:24 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/11/10 01:33 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I don't see how its brutalization when Israel is putting sanctions on palestine for a territory government who is purposelly shooting rockets into israel and sending suicide bombers while refusing to start peaceful negotiations.

it's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence.

but they do under the British Mandate after the Ottoman empire dissolved after Participating in WWI. so technically they have the total right.

Are you debating the merits of that right at face value, or just from the perspective of Israel?

Because if you judge it at face value than you will quickly dismiss it as imperialist fascism, no better then Nazi German claims on the rest of Europe. I mean what right do the British have in the 19th century, when Palestinians have been living their for thousands of years.

"It's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence."

Also Israel refuses to recognize Palestine's right to existence, which they prove with action. Refusing to reconize each other's right to existance doesn't make any difference though. It doesn't matter if in the constitution of Palestine, they refuse to recognize Israel. That doesn't affect negotiations at all. Countries do not need to have a contradiction free constitution to interact with negotiations. The obstacle in the Palestinian\Israeli conflict is not that Palestine refuses to recognize Israel.

Genetically, its arguable that the Palestinians ARE the descendants of Jews who were living there who mixed with other Arabs, because their genealogy goes to the same people, same with Turks, and considering Arabs are a mixture of people living in the Middle East, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Phoenicians etc. its not that big of a stretch to say that the Palestinains in Canaan/Palestine/Israel are descendants of Jews and Arabs.

I like how Germany finally gathered the balls to condemn Israel's actions. Israel got all pissy when Germany said they had to stop being asswads.

At 7/19/10 10:39 PM, Soapbubble wrote: I like how Germany finally gathered the balls to condemn Israel's actions. Israel got all pissy when Germany said they had to stop being asswads.

Germany has the biggest balls in western Europe. I'm starting to liek France too but, Germany is morally serious so they don't just do shit just to do shit. Like when Russia attacked Georgia and America was like "Russia! YOU COMMIE BASTARDO!" you would think the first country to go on an anti-Russian tirade would be Germany but NO they considered the attack legitimate and supported Russia.

They are awesome. I love them.

At 7/19/10 03:00 PM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/19/10 08:53 AM, zcult wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:54 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:24 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/11/10 01:33 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I don't see how its brutalization when Israel is putting sanctions on palestine for a territory government who is purposelly shooting rockets into israel and sending suicide bombers while refusing to start peaceful negotiations.

it's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence.

but they do under the British Mandate after the Ottoman empire dissolved after Participating in WWI. so technically they have the total right.

Are you debating the merits of that right at face value, or just from the perspective of Israel?

Because if you judge it at face value than you will quickly dismiss it as imperialist fascism, no better then Nazi German claims on the rest of Europe. I mean what right do the British have in the 19th century, when Palestinians have been living their for thousands of years.

oh really? they lived under king david's reign too right? they lived hardly 500 years in israel.

YA RLY

What you think the Palestinians migrated there under Ottoman rule? If I am to understand things correctly they have been there for +1000 years. Unless you have a contrary opinion?

At 7/19/10 03:00 PM, satanbrain wrote: the previous prime minister, ehud olmert did recognize Palestine's right to exsist and offered the lands they asked for but they refused to recognize israel! we refuse to have another muslim country led by terrorists and oppressing civilians fighting us, is that too much?

I'm fairly certain the negations didn't break down over Palestine refusing to recognize Israel. It was that Israel offered Palestine a state where their land was to be Gaza and the West Bank only, and in those territories they would have to answer to Israel to basically go anywhere, plus Israel would have control of the only natural resource there, which is the water. So, Israel did not offer Palestine "the lands that they wanted," and if they did things would be different.

Listen, am I wrong to assume you are Israeli? Because if it is, I want to be a lot more careful about the words I choose. I am aware what Israeli high school students go through and let me tell you. If there is one thing, ONE THING you extract from the Holocaust, it should be that defenseless civilians need to protected. If you have any heart in you, you would not be arguing for the people in power, but for the people who are having their lives ruined. If you take any lesson from the holocaust, be it that, oppressed people ought to liberated.

So if you are Israeli and Jewish, and went to an Israeli high school, let me clarify one myth that they teach people there: not everybody you. Everybody in the world doesn't hate Israel, and they don't hate Jews. What they don't like is ethnic cleansing, and that seems to be what the state of Israel is up to.

At 7/20/10 01:44 AM, zcult wrote:

At 7/19/10 10:39 PM, Soapbubble wrote: At 7/19/10 03:00 PM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/19/10 08:53 AM, zcult wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:54 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 7/11/10 02:24 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 7/11/10 01:33 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I don't see how its brutalization when Israel is putting sanctions on palestine for a territory government who is purposelly shooting rockets into israel and sending suicide bombers while refusing to start peaceful negotiations.

it's simple, they think israel doesn't have legitimate for existence.

but they do under the British Mandate after the Ottoman empire dissolved after Participating in WWI. so technically they have the total right.

Are you debating the merits of that right at face value, or just from the perspective of Israel?

Because if you judge it at face value than you will quickly dismiss it as imperialist fascism, no better then Nazi German claims on the rest of Europe. I mean what right do the British have in the 19th century, when Palestinians have been living their for thousands of years.

oh really? they lived under king david's reign too right? they lived hardly 500 years in israel.

YA RLY

What you think the Palestinians migrated there under Ottoman rule? If I am to understand things correctly they have been there for +1000 years. Unless you have a contrary opinion?

1000 years are not 3000 years, thanks to the romans and byzantines we were exiled and palestinians live there.

At 7/19/10 03:00 PM, satanbrain wrote: the previous prime minister, ehud olmert did recognize Palestine's right to exsist and offered the lands they asked for but they refused to recognize israel! we refuse to have another muslim country led by terrorists and oppressing civilians fighting us, is that too much?

I'm fairly certain the negations didn't break down over Palestine refusing to recognize Israel. It was that Israel offered Palastine a state where their land was to be Gaza and the West Bank only, and in those territories they would have to answer to Israel to basically go anywhere, plus Israel would have control of the only natural resource there, which is the water. So, Israel did not offer Palestine "the lands that they wanted," and if they did things would be different.

only?! you're claiming that they should have all israel right? just like i thought. water are going to be finished soon and i don't assume palestinians are building Water desalination plants are they?

Listen, am I wrong to assume you are Israeli? Because if it is, I want to be a lot more careful about the words I choose. I am aware what Israeli high school students go through and let me tell you. If there is one thing, ONE THING you extract from the Holocaust, it should be that defenseless civilians need to protected. If you have any heart in you, you would not be arguing for the people in power, but for the people who are having their lives ruined. If you take any lesson from the holocaust, be it that, oppressed people ought to liberated.

did jews killed germans from the first year germany was established? civilians equipped with RPG is not defenseless. and may their lives are ruined but only because they tried to ruin ours. and they are opressed becuase of hamas. they ought to be liberated from hamas. and i have no heart, only justice.

So if you are Israeli and Jewish, and went to an Israeli high school, let me clarify one myth that they teach people there: not everybody you. Everybody in the world doesn't hate Israel, and they don't hate Jews. What they don't like is ethnic cleansing, and that seems to be what the state of Israel is up to.

ethnic cleansing? you dare to say that's what we do? if we want to 'cleanse' the palastinian 'ethnicity' would we heal their wounded? would we bring them for our hospitals to give birth to thier infants? would we supply them with food and water?

Uh, Zcult, the attack on Georgia was legitimate and no countries really came out and apologized despite a UN report finding that Georgia was commiting acts of genocide in Ossetia and brutaly supressing people and national media.

But that's off topic.

Satanbrian, his point was that the innocents - ie: Non hamas members- should not be punished for the acts of their countrymen. Your point was that they all have RPGs. Which is bullshit, they're using crude home made rockets. Their weaponry is pretty much useless.

Justice is a myth, it doesnt fix anything. You kill Palestinians, you anger their family, they decide to get revenge and join Hamas. See the cycle?

At 7/20/10 07:08 AM, Chris-V2 wrote: Justice is a myth, it doesnt fix anything. You kill Palestinians, you anger their family, they decide to get revenge and join Hamas. See the cycle?

so the solution is to do nothing? let hamas do as it wants and let our civilians die?

At 7/20/10 07:22 AM, satanbrain wrote:

so the solution is to do nothing? let hamas do as it wants and let our civilians die?

So if the solution is not obvious, then violence must be the answer. Honestly? I think the solution would be to rebuild Palestine. If you give people a comfortable lifestyle, they might just not want to kill you anymore.

The fact is they're angry, they can't build homes in Gaza without being knocked and they don't have the funds for hospitals, desalinization plants or schools. They're not morons, they're just uneducated.

At 7/20/10 07:52 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 7/20/10 07:22 AM, satanbrain wrote:

so the solution is to do nothing? let hamas do as it wants and let our civilians die?

So if the solution is not obvious, then violence must be the answer. Honestly? I think the solution would be to rebuild Palestine. If you give people a comfortable lifestyle, they might just not want to kill you anymore.

then why they start attacking us in the first place if not to kill us? why should we rebuild the homes of those who shoot us? if we give them more, they'll demand more. it's simple. they can't expect from us to 'help to rebuild' them while they are helping to destruct us.

The fact is they're angry, they can't build homes in Gaza without being knocked and they don't have the funds for hospitals, desalinization plants or schools. They're not morons, they're just uneducated.

they don't have? do you have any idea how much money these terrorists are gaining from iran? do you have any idea how much of these actually reaching the people? why would anyone (if not dumb) would fight for those who are making his life worse and against those who are making it better everyday?

At 7/20/10 02:15 PM, satanbrain wrote: they don't have? do you have any idea how much money these terrorists are gaining from iran? do you have any idea how much of these actually reaching the people? why would anyone (if not dumb) would fight for those who are making his life worse and against those who are making it better everyday?

Yah, maybe its because the majority of those deaths are from Israeli's themselves? Thats not even to mention the fact that if you challenge Hamas chances are you die unless your Fatah.

At 7/20/10 03:59 AM, satanbrain wrote: did jews killed germans from the first year germany was established? civilians equipped with RPG is not defenseless. and may their lives are ruined but only because they tried to ruin ours. and they are opressed becuase of hamas. they ought to be liberated from hamas. and i have no heart, only justice.

How did Palestinians try to ruin your lives? By simply existing?

Please don't straw man me, I do not like that. Israel is occupying Palestine. The international courtagrees on this. What Palestinians are entitled to under international law is much more than what they have right now, and they are also entitled to the Arabic half of Jerusalem. That must mean you must treat Palestine with respect. Palestine doesn't even want the whole deal, they want a deal that is at least reasonable. They are even willing to let 50% of the Jewish settlers keep their settlements on their territory.

What Israel is refusing to do is treat Palestine with any basic respect. It is completely disgraceful. I would have thought better, to be honest. Palestine has just as much as, if not more right to exist than Israel. I'm not saying Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but they certainly have less claim on that land then Palestinians. I am completely fine with Jewish state. I am not fine with ethnic cleansing.

At 7/20/10 03:59 AM, satanbrain wrote: ethnic cleansing? you dare to say that's what we do? if we want to 'cleanse' the palastinian 'ethnicity' would we heal their wounded? would we bring them for our hospitals to give birth to thier infants? would we supply them with food and water?

Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is? It has specific meaning.

I didn't say it was the holocaust. There's no need to compare it to the holocaust, since the reality of itself is bad enough. Palestinian homes are being demolished, and then they are refused another home, they have no autonomy, it's impossible to get anywhere through Israeli check points, random 15 year old boys are tortured and used as human shields. Palestinian children are being killed more often than Israeli civilians.

What they are trying to do is make Palestinian life so horrible that they all leave. That is also called ethnic cleansing, since ethnic cleansing entails the forcible transportation of a people, be it by coercion, or intimidation. What Israel is doing very much fits the definition of ethnic cleansing.

So don't get pious with me. You think just because Israel is the official state representing Jews, and Jews went through the holocaust that they are not capable of such things? I would think so too, if I didn't pay attention to the news. Its incredibly contradictory. Yet it is also what is going on right now.

"would we bring them for our hospitals to give birth to thier infants? "

What are you talking about? Palestinian pregnant mothers are actually denied treatment at Israeli hospitals.

At 7/20/10 07:22 AM, satanbrain wrote:

then why they start attacking us in the first place if not to kill us? why should we rebuild the homes of those who shoot us? if we give them more, they'll demand more. it's simple. they can't expect from us to 'help to rebuild' them while they are helping to destruct us.

You clearly have no understanding of how poverty leads to anger and dispair. When you're poor, life is shit and your family has no hope you're going to look for someone to blame.

they don't have? do you have any idea how much money these terrorists are gaining from iran? do you have any idea how much of these actually reaching the people? why would anyone (if not dumb) would fight for those who are making his life worse and against those who are making it better everyday?

...And you think every Palestinian on the planet is a fucking terrorist. Hamas (let's use their name from now on, since you seem to associate terrorist with everyone outside of Israel) receive funding, this does not put money in the ordinary man's hands. Do you seriously follow the idea that a wealthy government leads to a wealthy populace? That's a bullshit notion, see Political Corruption and Greed.

And you just said that you didn't see the point in Israel rebuilding Palestine and yet you say you're improving their quality of life? Your logic isn't even circular, it's some sort of fucked up mish mash of media and on the spot fact invention.

At 7/21/10 10:40 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

Do you seriously follow the idea that a wealthy government leads to a wealthy populace? That's a bullshit notion, see Political Corruption and Greed.

Which is why the flotilla brigade is wrong in sending supplies to Hamas. As are Iran and the Saudis for funding them.

And you just said that you didn't see the point in Israel rebuilding Palestine and yet you say you're improving their quality of life? Your logic isn't even circular, it's some sort of fucked up mish mash of media and on the spot fact invention.

Kinda funny how the Palestinians want Israel to rebuild Gaza, yet leave them alone. You can't have one without the other.
The Palestinians started this whole dilemma by refusing to live under a democracy. Palestinians fled from their homes by choice. Some were kicked out on their own, yes, but many fled because of their own choice.
People also tend to forget that Jews were forced out of their homes by Palestinians too.

At 7/22/10 11:31 AM, Ranger2 wrote: Which is why the flotilla brigade is wrong in sending supplies to Hamas. As are Iran and the Saudis for funding them.

Yes. Sending people food is wrong.

And you just said that you didn't see the point in Israel rebuilding Palestine and yet you say you're improving their quality of life? Your logic isn't even circular, it's some sort of fucked up mish mash of media and on the spot fact invention.

Kinda funny how the Palestinians want Israel to rebuild Gaza, yet leave them alone. You can't have one without the other.
The Palestinians started this whole dilemma by refusing to live under a democracy. Palestinians fled from their homes by choice. Some were kicked out on their own, yes, but many fled because of their own choice.
People also tend to forget that Jews were forced out of their homes by Palestinians too.

O.k, let's break this shit down.

1) You didn't define or justify your point, at all. You haven't cleared up the paradox.

2) Who is this Palestinian "we"? Hamas and the civilian population are two different groups. How is this difficult to understand?

4) I didn't know that Israel as already rebuilding Gaza. Are they just gonna bomb the land flat and start from scratch?

5) Democracy is a people's choice. You cannot persecute someone for not beleiving in everything you do. We mock Communism as a fallacy of a system, the Communists mock Capitalism for being a fallacy also. Again, is this whole idea of perspective sinking in? You can't generalize millions of people like that, it's going to be stupidly innacurate. It's like saying all black people can play basketball.

At 7/22/10 07:34 PM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 7/22/10 11:31 AM, Ranger2 wrote: Which is why the flotilla brigade is wrong in sending supplies to Hamas. As are Iran and the Saudis for funding them.

Yes. Sending people food is wrong.

sending money to terrirsts is wrong.

And you just said that you didn't see the point in Israel rebuilding Palestine and yet you say you're improving their quality of life? Your logic isn't even circular, it's some sort of fucked up mish mash of media and on the spot fact invention.

Kinda funny how the Palestinians want Israel to rebuild Gaza, yet leave them alone. You can't have one without the other.
The Palestinians started this whole dilemma by refusing to live under a democracy. Palestinians fled from their homes by choice. Some were kicked out on their own, yes, but many fled because of their own choice.
People also tend to forget that Jews were forced out of their homes by Palestinians too.

O.k, let's break this shit down.

1) You didn't define or justify your point, at all. You haven't cleared up the paradox.

they can't expect us to help them if they want hamas to rule.

2) Who is this Palestinian "we"? Hamas and the civilian population are two different groups. How is this difficult to understand?

yet, hamas didn't grow by it's own.

4) I didn't know that Israel as already rebuilding Gaza. Are they just gonna bomb the land flat and start from scratch?

no that's what hamas does. it's unoriginal.

5) Democracy is a people's choice. You cannot persecute someone for not beleiving in everything you do. We mock Communism as a fallacy of a system, the Communists mock Capitalism for being a fallacy also. Again, is this whole idea of perspective sinking in? You can't generalize millions of people like that, it's going to be stupidly innacurate. It's like saying all black people can play basketball.

so they democratically decided that we should be destroyed.
hamas principles:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Yes annnnd no. Israel is psychotic, yeah, without a single breath of doubt. Yes, they do indiscriminately kill, kidnap, torture/"interrogate", and can't differentiate between innocent Palestinians and actual terrorist groups, but the only thing keeping me from saying "down with Israel" is that Hezbollah is the exact same way.

It's a perpetual cycle of violence, circumstantially breeding extremists on both sides. Israel shouldn't have ever been formed in the first place, but that's all in the past. Israeli apologists are religious "holier than thou art" Zionist Jews, bandwagoning conservatives, or cut-throat realists who know that Israel's pretty much the US's only power-base/buffer in the Middle East that has actual military capability, which, ironically wouldn't be the case if either Israel stopped being such Nazis against a certain racial group.

It's irony wrapped in a dark irony wrapped in a belligerent history. I love it.

Sorry my previous post was a little incoherent, but I'm a little tired.

My point is that Israel is not a "good guy" country, but neither are their enemies. So it's kind of hard to call it a terrorist country when it's surrounded by crazy thugs, but it's not a stretch of the imagination either.

Look, you're still not getting my point. Hamas would have taken power. In the elections they received 35% of votes, Fatah getting 41%. But they use this sort of proportional voting system you find in England which lead to Hamas getting 44%. Now, let's be real. 60% of people said NO to Hamas, and you're still going to kill them for it?

As for those who voted from them, they are naive. But I mean, it's a glimmer of hope, what the fuck do you expect? Do you think since the elections that some of those people have not realised they were swept up in propoganda and mob anger?

And do you think that Israel is any different in that respect? You sound like your being spoon fed the same bullshit just from the other side. Palestinian devil, Israeli devil, it's just villainisation of people who frankly don't really know or want to know what is going on.

If you're going to be angry with Hamas over their shitty home made rockets and their big talk, fine. But don't blame every Palestinian. That's like blaming you for Israel forging Irish passports and confiscation of Irish sea vessels in international waters. Sure, I'm angry with your government, I'd like to see large scale action - there has been war over less. I don't want to see your family die for it, though.

At 7/23/10 07:23 AM, Chris-V2 wrote: Look, you're still not getting my point. Hamas would have taken power. In the elections they received 35% of votes, Fatah getting 41%. But they use this sort of proportional voting system you find in England which lead to Hamas getting 44%. Now, let's be real. 60% of people said NO to Hamas, and you're still going to kill them for it?

we don't kill people because of their opinions. we kill them becuase they either physically protected or they weren't so innocent.

As for those who voted from them, they are naive. But I mean, it's a glimmer of hope, what the fuck do you expect? Do you think since the elections that some of those people have not realised they were swept up in propoganda and mob anger?

a glimmer a hope? our death is their hope. and yes, if they have realized that they would help us (more effectively) to ruin hamas. they would choose free country over dictatorial one.

And do you think that Israel is any different in that respect? You sound like your being spoon fed the same bullshit just from the other side. Palestinian devil, Israeli devil, it's just villainisation of people who frankly don't really know or want to know what is going on.

i never said palestinian were the devil, i say facts and testimonies of soldiers. the soldier who entered gaza is less reliable that the one who lived there? he isn't, so you can't judge

If you're going to be angry with Hamas over their shitty home made rockets and their big talk, fine. But don't blame every Palestinian. That's like blaming you for Israel forging Irish passports and confiscation of Irish sea vessels in international waters. Sure, I'm angry with your government, I'd like to see large scale action - there has been war over less. I don't want to see your family die for it, though.

israel got rid of a terrorist and no one respects that. im angry about their intifada, about their 'shitty hope rockets' who cause people to live in fear for years, about their kidnaping of a soldier, about that they expect us to throw people out of their homes for peace, and about the fact that no one in the UN ever investigate hamas crimes.

At 7/23/10 11:23 PM, satanbrain wrote:

we don't kill people because of their opinions. we kill them becuase they either physically protected or they weren't so innocent.

Every state in the world will tell you they only punish guilty people, that doesn't make it so.

a glimmer a hope? our death is their hope. and yes, if they have realized that they would help us (more effectively) to ruin hamas. they would choose free country over dictatorial one.

It's not your call wether or not Palestine is a democracy, get over that fact. This fear of a non-democratic regime thing comes straight from the early 1900's. You can't seriously expect a country to be peaceful because they're democratic? Democracy is just a method of deciding leadership.

i never said palestinian were the devil, i say facts and testimonies of soldiers. the soldier who entered gaza is less reliable that the one who lived there? he isn't, so you can't judge

You've never sourced anything you said so how do you expect that to work? I'm calling that bluff, buddy.

israel got rid of a terrorist and no one respects that. im angry about their intifada, about their 'shitty hope rockets' who cause people to live in fear for years, about their kidnaping of a soldier, about that they expect us to throw people out of their homes for peace, and about the fact that no one in the UN ever investigate hamas crimes.

It's not what Israel is supposedly doing, defending itself, that is the true problem. It's the methods. The current system is so high in civilian death and humanitarian crime that the problem is self perpetuating. As I've said, how do you expect people who have been treated so badly to want anything else other than revenge? And as for the kidnipping of ONE solider, big fucking deal! Israel has knocked thousands of homes and killed hundreds of children in Gaza and this one soldier has got your cock in a twist?

The UN wanted to do a floatilla investigation and was denied by the Israeli government. Whenever the UN do a report on Gaza conflicts it ultimately mentions some mistakes made by the Israeli government. Rather then investigating these reports the Israeli government trashes it as anti-Israeli propaganda sent by the West. The crazy part is you actualy swallow that! You just keep acting like everyone else is stupid, everyone else "doesn't get it". But you treat the Palestinian people with utter contempt and it's pretty sickening. Actualy it borders on inhuman.

Should Afghani civilians die for 9/11? Should Irish citizens die for The Troubles? Basque citizens for ETA bombings? I think it's ludicrous to even suggest it.

Are you aware that there's a very high level of Jewish and Catholic population within Gaza? And that any humanitarian funding from Israel really only goes to Israeli settlements?

At 7/24/10 06:02 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 7/23/10 11:23 PM, satanbrain wrote:

we don't kill people because of their opinions. we kill them becuase they either physically protected or they weren't so innocent.

Every state in the world will tell you they only punish guilty people, that doesn't make it so.

even palestine?!

a glimmer a hope? our death is their hope. and yes, if they have realized that they would help us (more effectively) to ruin hamas. they would choose free country over dictatorial one.

It's not your call wether or not Palestine is a democracy, get over that fact. This fear of a non-democratic regime thing comes straight from the early 1900's. You can't seriously expect a country to be peaceful because they're democratic? Democracy is just a method of deciding leadership.

but at least the 60% who said no to hamas will have representation.

i never said palestinian were the devil, i say facts and testimonies of soldiers. the soldier who entered gaza is less reliable that the one who lived there? he isn't, so you can't judge

You've never sourced anything you said so how do you expect that to work? I'm calling that bluff, buddy.

bluff? terrorists never bomb buses, never lynched, never killed anyone in the last 20 years?

israel got rid of a terrorist and no one respects that. im angry about their intifada, about their 'shitty hope rockets' who cause people to live in fear for years, about their kidnaping of a soldier, about that they expect us to throw people out of their homes for peace, and about the fact that no one in the UN ever investigate hamas crimes.

It's not what Israel is supposedly doing, defending itself, that is the true problem. It's the methods. The current system is so high in civilian death and humanitarian crime that the problem is self perpetuating. As I've said, how do you expect people who have been treated so badly to want anything else other than revenge? And as for the kidnipping of ONE solider, big fucking deal! Israel has knocked thousands of homes and killed hundreds of children in Gaza and this one soldier has got your cock in a twist?

'so high in civilian death'? 800 shooters and 400 civilians. prove any other state had this ratio. we didn't kill hundreds of children, although they shoot us. when we caged terrorists we let them have organized meetings with their families, watch tv, get academic education.

The UN wanted to do a floatilla investigation and was denied by the Israeli government. Whenever the UN do a report on Gaza conflicts it ultimately mentions some mistakes made by the Israeli government. Rather then investigating these reports the Israeli government trashes it as anti-Israeli propaganda sent by the West. The crazy part is you actualy swallow that! You just keep acting like everyone else is stupid, everyone else "doesn't get it". But you treat the Palestinian people with utter contempt and it's pretty sickening. Actualy it borders on inhuman.

anti-israeli becuase hamas was never mentioned as mistaked, anti-israeli becuase the title is 'israeli actions' and not 'IHH actions'. how exactly is calling for cease-fire to help palastinians, warn palastinians to get out of terrorists houses and send supplies is inhuman?

Should Afghani civilians die for 9/11? Should Irish citizens die for The Troubles? Basque citizens for ETA bombings? I think it's ludicrous to even suggest it.

they're not hiding in the citizens' houses, they're not fighting you from there.

Are you aware that there's a very high level of Jewish and Catholic population within Gaza? And that any humanitarian funding from Israel really only goes to Israeli settlements?

i am aware that what you said is wrong.

At 7/25/10 12:54 AM, satanbrain wrote:

but at least the 60% who said no to hamas will have representation.

What do you mean by that? What about the Israelis who don't want their country to be at war, where's there representation?

bluff? terrorists never bomb buses, never lynched, never killed anyone in the last 20 years?

I'm sure the IDF have killed lots of people and destroyed lots of Palestinian infrastructure, yes.
Oh, wait. You meant the other guys? Hard to tell when you keep using this "terrorist" word you love so much. Groups have names for a reason, you know.

'so high in civilian death'? 800 shooters and 400 civilians. prove any other state had this ratio. we didn't kill hundreds of children, although they shoot us. when we caged terrorists we let them have organized meetings with their families, watch tv, get academic education.

For which side is that death toll? Either way a 2:1 ratio of civilian death is stupidly high. And if you'd read my earlier posts you'd see I've already posted the Israel and Palestinian death tolls. The children shoot you? The level of child mortality was in the hundreds, so they musn't be very good.
.

anti-israeli becuase hamas was never mentioned as mistaked, anti-israeli becuase the title is 'israeli actions' and not 'IHH actions'. how exactly is calling for cease-fire to help palastinians, warn palastinians to get out of terrorists houses and send supplies is inhuman?

Hamas didn't fire white phosphorous at schools or hospitals and they didn't blow up any UN buildings. That was abit short sighted, wasn't it? And once again, I'd like to see proof. The death figures would show otherwise.

they're not hiding in the citizens' houses, they're not fighting you from there.

I'm really not following this emotional rant of yours. The Palestinians within Gaza don't really have homes anymore, and your sentence didn't make very much sense.

i am aware that what you said is wrong.

...What does that video prove? The bags could be anything and we don't see anyone actualy receive anything.