Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

I wish my grandpa was a metaphor...

At 10/26/10 10:21 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 10/25/10 08:25 PM, adrshepard wrote:

They didn't vote for Hamas to violently seize control of the Gaza strip.

That's a lie.

So Gazans DID vote for that? Or are you saying that it wasn't violent? Or that they didn't seize control?

Fringe groups can launch a rocket from time to time, but there is no doubt that there is a single dominant Hamas group that governs the Gaza strip.

That's a lie.

(It's o.k, I linked to this one before. He's a PhD if you'd like to dispute the article, and is not nor ever was employed by Al-Jazeera.)

Lol, why would I dispute it if "PhDs NEVER lie or distort anything EVER."
From the article, bolds my own.
Hamas is oversimplified. It is no exaggeration to note that Hamas is made up of several sets of Hamas - 'mini Hamases' - whose diverse trends of thought are all integrated into an overarching cohesive organisation.Its wide political spectrum has 'peaceniks' and 'refuseniks', 'soft' and 'hard' ideologues, 'extremist' and 'centrist' positions.

These tendencies and currents are all guided by internal discipline, consultative and democratic procedures for resolving differences and disagreements within the organisation, and, above all else, commitment to the organisation's ideals of independent statehood within a Muslim Brotherhood frame of reference.
This "ultra-smart" PhD seems convinced that there is in fact a central leadership(namely the Muslim guy in the giant photograph at the beginning of the article) at the front of a political organization, called "Hamas."

Um, the IDF are occupying Gaza and are the ones who control media reports and civilian movement.

http://www.newssafety.org/index.php?view =article&catid=278%3Apalestine-gazza-saf ety&id=10284%3Ahamas-government-reinforc es-control-over-media&option=com_content &Itemid=100371
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb /13/hamas-gaza-murders-abduction-torture

Shortcut argument for you: "ALL LIES"

That shit isn't even relevant. I was talking about border rights, you just saw guns.

No, you said "The blockades have to go, Hamas has a right to own and purchase weapons."

And because Israel doesn't strap a person to the bomb there's is more civilised?

You do realize that every criminal justice system in the world takes intent into consideration when classifying charges or passing sentences? Where is this disturbing world you live in where the significance of death and violence depends solely on the number of people affected?

I never said either way because, regardless what the IDF said (and would naturaly say), we don't actualy know. It suits you to say they do, they don't suit me either way because I don't see why you have a knock a building down to kill a guy with a rocket launcher.

How you apparently never though "maybe he keeps the rockets in the building" is beyond me.

I used to have pity on Satanbrain alone. Not anymore.

Israeli generosity and restraint is not mindboggling. In fact, it's the biggest reason why places like the West Bank and Gaza weren't incorporated into Israel decades ago.

Uhh..annexation of land during the 6 Day War?

Land that has been used primarily as a buffer zone, without exclusive Israeli governance. If Israel wanted those lands to be part of the state, it could have removed and relocated the people already living there as its leaders chose.

You know for a fact you selectively quoted that article, so I'm sorry if I don't swallow that one.

And what sort of disturbing world do you live in where intent outweighs casualties? Not that I see any diference to the amount of intent to a carpet bombing than a suicide bombing. It's a fucking bomb, you don't drop them in the hope that they'll bounce back up.

Of course they banned Pro-Fatah newspapers, they're your terrorists terrorists. I'm sure the IDF would be really happy to see someone distributing some anti-Israel flyers about the place.

And as for killing someone pointing a rocket launcher out of a window, it's called a sniper rifle. They're really cool, tell the IDF to go buy some quickly so we can end the war already.

Now can you stop this stupidity? You're under the illusion that by being anti-IDF that I'm pro-Hamas. And for the last fucking time no one here is saying that Hamas are in the right, they're just saying that Israel needs to stop being such gormless, self-serving, over-zealous facists before Iran drops an a-bomb on them. You can't justify what is happening in Gaza as self defense, we've had 19 pages of failed attempts at that. Look back, read the articles. It's going to be the same different rant with a vaugely different person.

At 10/26/10 07:45 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: And what sort of disturbing world do you live in where intent outweighs casualties? Not that I see any diference to the amount of intent to a carpet bombing than a suicide bombing. It's a fucking bomb, you don't drop them in the hope that they'll bounce back up.

you drop them, after you have announced the place is going to be bombed, in hope the terrorists will stay and the civilians will flee.

And as for killing someone pointing a rocket launcher out of a window, it's called a sniper rifle. They're really cool, tell the IDF to go buy some quickly so we can end the war already.

And you suppose that except for the one who shoots the house is empty? sniper rifles can't 'kill' stacks of rockets.

Look back, read the articles.

You can do the same.

I'm not even trying to read that anymore. I can't tell if they're Strawmans or if it's your English but you don't actualy make any sense.

Your first point would imply that Terrorists don't get bombing notices. They do, if they didn't that would mean the IDF knew where they were to NOT inform them. The only people getting killed in that bombing raid are those who didn't here about it - maybe some orphans or old people with no radios. Maybe no one stays and some houses get blown up for no reason. But either way you're just saying that, and so far you've been so wrong about so many things.

"And you suppose that except for the one who shoots the house is empty? sniper rifles can't 'kill' stacks of rockets"

Seriously, what does that first sentence even say? Secondly - you aim guns at people. If you shoot him you can just take the rockets.

I've read your mfa.gov crap. It means nothing, like the gibberishy English I have to try and read.

At 10/27/10 12:52 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: Your first point would imply that Terrorists don't get bombing notices. They do, if they didn't that would mean the IDF knew where they were to NOT inform them.

but they don't care if they live or die, their only intention is to kill.

The only people getting killed in that bombing raid are those who didn't here about it - maybe some orphans or old people with no radios. Maybe no one stays and some houses get blown up for no reason. But either way you're just saying that, and so far you've been so wrong about so many things.

Flyers are also dropped down before the bombing, if they can't read and no one told them the flyers' meaning they would have heard the warning shouted from megaphones.

you aim guns at people. If you shoot him you can just take the rockets.

Take it? and what is the army supposed to do with it? or how is the army supposed to carry it around?

I've read your mfa.gov crap. It means nothing, like the gibberishy English I have to try and read.

it means nothing you want to hear.

At 10/26/10 07:45 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: You know for a fact you selectively quoted that article, so I'm sorry if I don't swallow that one.

I don't care what you swallow; you have to show how I "selectively quoted" it, especially how it doesn't support my original point that Hamas is the central, dominant, governing political/terrorist organization in the Gaza strip?

And what sort of disturbing world do you live in where intent outweighs casualties? Not that I see any diference to the amount of intent to a carpet bombing than a suicide bombing.

What carpet bombings are you referring to? Or more precisely, how do you define "carpet bombing?" Any airstrike in which civilians die?

Of course they banned Pro-Fatah newspapers, they're your terrorists terrorists. I'm sure the IDF would be really happy to see someone distributing some anti-Israel flyers about the place.

The newspapers are terrorists? I didn't know newspapers could do that. I thought they were more about the whole democratic notion of discussion and view-sharing.
BTW there are plenty of self-flagellating, national masochist Israeli groups that hate everything about Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

And as for killing someone pointing a rocket launcher out of a window, it's called a sniper rifle. They're really cool, tell the IDF to go buy some quickly so we can end the war already.

Why did I even bother responding to you?

Now can you stop this stupidity?

Expecting you to participate in any sort of intelligent discussion was, for my part, pretty stupid, so I will.

At 10/25/10 02:27 PM, BezFriend wrote: Look, I want people to realize one thing: Israel wants to destroy Hamas. Look at its policies; it explicitly says that they will destroy Hamas and Islam. Israel doesn't want a two-state solution. They want one Israel. That's it. They will not compromise and they should not be talked to like they are legitimate representatives of a peace process.

Israel wants to destroy Islam?
Bitch, you don't even read a book about it.
I've BEEN to Israel. I remember very clearly that when I visited the Dome of the Rock, when it was time for the Muslims to pray the IDF forcibly escorted all non-Muslims off the area. They wouldn't allow a single Jew to be on the Temple Mount when the Muslims were praying. They didn't dare try to offend muslims.
Muslims are in the government there. They have as many rights as any other citizen. The muslim quarter of Jerusalem is thriving. In the six day war, people in the Golan Heights, West Bank, Sinai, and Gaza strip were NOT forced out of their homes-Israel even signed a military order forbidding soldiers to evict Arabs from their homes.

So don't you even think about comparing Israel to Hamas using my format.

At 10/27/10 08:02 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 10/26/10 07:45 PM, Chris-V2 wrote:

I don't care what you swallow; you have to show how I "selectively quoted" it, especially how it doesn't support my original point that Hamas is the central, dominant, governing political/terrorist organization in the Gaza strip?

Well "Its wide political spectrum has 'peaceniks' and 'refuseniks', 'soft' and 'hard' ideologues, 'extremist' and 'centrist' positions. " would show that
a) Not every group follows the same moral outline
b) There is no dominant political policy within the group and
c) Not every group is militant and hostile against peace negotiations.

Infact you'll find "there are those inside Hamas who would readily speak directly with Israel. Their reasoning is that it is better to get it directly from the horse's mouth, as it were, rather than hear from Israel through third parties. This is neither absolute or yet crystal-clear outside Hamas, nor a solid or uncontested position within Hamas. "

To expand on point C a little further, you can't really pin any military attacks on Hamas. And I quote "Since the kidnapping of Shalit no serious armed operations or suicide bombings have taken place. Hamas has observed a unilateral armistice (hudnah) for a number of years, punctuated by intermittent firing of rockets from Gaza but not necessarily by its own military arm, the Qassam Brigades." Now the Al-Qassam Brigades do they say work towards the goals of Hamas, they are NOT the same group as Hamas. They operate independantly and make their own decisions. There is communications between the two groups but Hamas doesnt really hold a right to veto a Qassam decision. 3rd paragraph of this sort of mulls over a few opinions.

So while the group Hamas governs Palestine, Hamas does not readily self govern - the main issue is that everyone works towards the same cause.

What carpet bombings are you referring to? Or more precisely, how do you define "carpet bombing?" Any airstrike in which civilians die?

Do the White Phosphorous airstrikescount?

BTW there are plenty of self-flagellating, national masochist Israeli groups that hate everything about Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

I'm well aware. Now are you aware that there's a violent feud between Fatah and Hamas since the 2006 election? They are both, as we might put it, militant Islamic groups. They both want the same power. They're dissidents in a time of war. I'm not defending Hamas' actions, but its not a historicle landmark for this to happen.

Why did I even bother responding to you?

I don't really know, apparantly we need to demolish Gaza to kill a few small active Hamas sects though!

Again, why is that for being anti-IDF you insinuate I'm pro-Hamas. It's a load of jingoist "Yr with ussss rr yrrr against uss" crap!

At 10/28/10 09:56 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

What carpet bombings are you referring to? Or more precisely, how do you define "carpet bombing?" Any airstrike in which civilians die?

Do the White Phosphorous airstrikescount?

Does hamas's White Phosphorous airstrikes count?

You got me!

At 10/28/10 01:12 PM, Thief1337 wrote: It can't be racism since Jews were never a race in the first place.

There are actually some Jews who think that Jews are a race.
But I agree with you. I'm a Jew by religion, not race. I don't believe that you can be "half Jewish" or "a quarter Jewish." You are or you aren't.
You can't be, "half christian" either.

At 10/29/10 02:14 PM, Thief1337 wrote: Most of the Jews are following the Talmudic Judaism, which is a racist ideology by itself. There's not just a handful of them.

Holdup!
Is there any other type of Judaism besides Talmudic? No matter how strict you are (Orthodox) or lax (Reform, which I am) we all study the Talmud.

Now there are ultra-orthodox, that may be what you're talking about.

But there are different types of Jews-those who keep kosher, wear the kippah (little cap), have the peyos (long sideburns) and go to temple every night.

Then there are Jews like me. I believe Jews are a religion, not a race. I don't keep kosher, or do any of the things I mentioned above. I go to synagogue for big holidays, celebrate Hannukah, and teach Hebrew to kids before their Bar/Bat Mitzvahs.
But I don't go around saying that Jews are great and the "goyim" are all monsters.

Meet a Jew, you'd be surprised how few of them are how you say.

Israel? For God's sake, I condemn Israel and the Palestinians for committing war crimes and wiping out each other's land in the same way I blame the Nazis for killing six million Jews!

At 11/1/10 07:12 AM, joe9320 wrote: Israel? For God's sake, I condemn Israel and the Palestinians for committing war crimes and wiping out each other's land in the same way I blame the Nazis for killing six million Jews!

So you're neutral. That I guess I can respect.

those who think israilis are terrorist are idiots

At 11/12/10 10:46 PM, private1111 wrote: those who think israilis are terrorist are idiots

I says pardon??

At 11/13/10 08:19 AM, bcdemon wrote: I says pardon??

I'd be lying if I didn't agree with you, and I'm a Zionist!

Yes, Menachem Begin was a terrorist. He plotted to blow up the King David Hotel. If a Palestinian tried to do it I'd call it terrorism; it would be suicide on this thread to say that Begin was a "freedom fighter" in this case.

Crazy how he and Sadat (who was not too peaceful himself!) ended up orchestrating a lasting Egyptian-Israeli peace agreements.

At 10/27/10 10:29 PM, Ranger2 wrote:

Muslims are in the government there. They have as many rights as any other citizen. The muslim quarter of Jerusalem is thriving. In the six day war, people in the Golan Heights, West Bank, Sinai, and Gaza strip were NOT forced out of their homes-Israel even signed a military order forbidding soldiers to evict Arabs from their homes.

Sure...

At 11/14/10 11:30 AM, MattDogg wrote: Sure...

that doesn't really address his post.

At 10/27/10 02:38 PM, satanbrain wrote:

Flyers are also dropped down before the bombing, if they can't read and no one told them the flyers' meaning they would have heard the warning shouted from megaphones.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni states there have been NO Civilian casualties in the Aerial Bombardment of the Gaza Strip, she agrees that the bombardment is Israels version of "Shock and Awe" designed to SURPRISE Hamas, and then goes on to make the startling assertion that the civilian population were WARNED that Israel was about to start the Aerial bombardment, so which is it? You cant warn people you are going to Bomb with a Surprise Bombardment can you? NO then Tzipi Livni must be lying!

At 11/14/10 11:55 AM, MattDogg wrote: The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni states there have been NO Civilian casualties in the Aerial Bombardment of the Gaza Strip, she agrees that the bombardment is Israels version of "Shock and Awe" designed to SURPRISE Hamas, and then goes on to make the startling assertion that the civilian population were WARNED that Israel was about to start the Aerial bombardment, so which is it? You cant warn people you are going to Bomb with a Surprise Bombardment can you? NO then Tzipi Livni must be lying!

the US dropped leaflets in Iraq warning of the bombing intended to take the gov. by surprise and shock and awe them into submission. You cant warn people you are going to Bomb with a Surprise Bombardment can you? NO then the US must be lying!

At 11/14/10 12:03 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

the US dropped leaflets in Iraq warning of the bombing intended to take the gov. by surprise and shock and awe them into submission. You cant warn people you are going to Bomb with a Surprise Bombardment can you? NO then the US must be lying!

So what?The US government lied about WMD and without the 'Saddam had WMD' reason, the Iraqi invasion would not happen in the first place

At 11/14/10 06:47 PM, MattDogg wrote: So what?The US government lied about WMD and without the 'Saddam had WMD' reason, the Iraqi invasion would not happen in the first place

i'm not sure you're understanding how comparing similar situations in order to address a topic or line of inquiry work.

...or videos with verifiable context and facts.

At 10/9/10 11:26 AM, satanbrain wrote: But it is obvious that hamas isn't responsible for anything, they must have stolen it to liberate the poor palestinians of food given by israel.

Well thank God HAMAS is there to make sure Palestians starve rather than eat demon Israel food!

Please tell me you're joking....

At 10/28/10 09:56 AM, Chris-V2 wrote: So while the group Hamas governs Palestine, Hamas does not readily self govern - the main issue is that everyone works towards the same cause.

That's silly. Because everyone doesn't agree on everything, there's no central structure? You contradict yourself!

Do the White Phosphorous airstrikescount?

As carpet bombing? Um, no.

Carpet bombing is when...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bomb ing

By your own link, the WP bombings had ten burn victims. That completely rips apart the idea that the city was carpet bombed. That the city was still standing with minor damage after the fact also negates this charge.

I'm well aware. Now are you aware that there's a violent feud between Fatah and Hamas since the 2006 election? They are both, as we might put it, militant Islamic groups. They both want the same power. They're dissidents in a time of war. I'm not defending Hamas' actions, but its not a historicle landmark for this to happen.

What does that mean? People disagree? Um? So did we not have a government in the US between 2002-2006? Because Democrats still existed and disagreed!

I don't really know, apparantly we need to demolish Gaza to kill a few small active Hamas sects though!

Um, no one even suggested that. But thanks for playing?

At 11/14/10 06:47 PM, MattDogg wrote: So what?The US government lied about WMD and without the 'Saddam had WMD' reason, the Iraqi invasion would not happen in the first place

Um, except they didn't. There's simply no question that Iraq was breaking the UN resolutions on weapons development. EVERYONE agreed on this.

http://articles.cnn.com/2003-03-07/us/sp rj.irq.un.transcript.blix_1_inspection-e ffort-unmovic-unscom/4?_s=PM:US

"While during our meetings in Baghdad, the Iraqi side tried to persuade us that the Al Samoud 2 missiles they have declared fall within the permissible range set by the Security Council. The calculations of an international panel of experts led us to the opposite conclusion. Iraq has since accepted that these missiles and associated items be destroyed and has started the process of destruction under our supervision.

The destruction undertaken constitutes a substantial measure of disarmament, indeed the first since the middle of the 1990s. We are not watching the breaking of toothpicks; lethal weapons are being destroyed.
Advertisement

However, I must add that the report I have today tells me that no destruction work has continued today. I hope this is a temporary break.

Until today, 34 Al Samoud 2 missiles, including four training missiles, two combat warheads, one launcher and five engines, have been destroyed under UNMOVIC's supervision. Work is continuing to identify and inventory the parts and equipment associated with the Al Samoud 2 program.

Two reconstituted casting chambers used in the production of solid propellant missiles have been destroyed, and the remnants melted or encased in concrete."

Short version: Iraq had illegal weapons and some were destroyed. However, Iraq stopped that process, and Bush saw that as an opportunity to invade. However, illegal weapons, including WMDs, were clearly in Saddam's possession.

Was this seen as cooperation and compliance? Blix didn't think so:

"Against this background, the question is now asked whether Iraq has cooperated, "immediately, unconditionally and actively," with UNMOVIC, as is required under Paragraph 9 of Resolution 1441. The answers can be seen from the factor descriptions that I have provided.

However, if more direct answers are desired, I would say the following: The Iraqi side has tried on occasion to attach conditions, as it did regarding helicopters and U-2 planes. It has not, however, so far persisted in this or other conditions for the exercise of any of our inspection rights. If it did, we would report it.

...

Nevertheless, intelligence agencies have expressed the view that proscribed programs have continued or restarted in this period. It is further contended that proscribed programs and items are located in underground facilities, as I mentioned, and that proscribed items are being moved around Iraq. The working document does contain suggestions on how these concerns may be tackled."

Given his previous problems with compliance, it takes someone not using their brain to read Blix and believe (as even he didn't at the time), that Iraq was complying with the demands.

Israel is the only sane country in the middle east. Hamas are terrorists. They shoot rockets over the border into Israel and nobody lifts a finger. When Israel finally strikes back, the whole world are ready to call them mass murderers.

At 11/15/10 06:17 PM, tauer wrote: Israel is the only sane country in the middle east. Hamas are terrorists. They shoot rockets over the border into Israel and nobody lifts a finger. When Israel finally strikes back, the whole world are ready to call them mass murderers.

Wow, what bigotry is this? Just because you don't understand Arabian culture, doesn't mean all of them are insane. What happened to our beloved fictional children story Aladdin? Is he now an insane guy?

At 11/15/10 06:17 PM, tauer wrote: Israel is the only sane country in the middle east. Hamas are terrorists. They shoot rockets over the border into Israel and nobody lifts a finger. When Israel finally strikes back, the whole world are ready to call them mass murderers.

Israel fires missiles into schools then blames it on terrorists firing missiles from them, but when someone asks for documents about what happened Israel gives a small scene that makes them look good. Israel has constantly been caught bullshitting and right wingers don't pick up a whife of it.

At 11/16/10 12:17 AM, Warforger wrote: Israel fires missiles into schools then blames it on terrorists firing missiles from them, but when someone asks for documents about what happened Israel gives a small scene that makes them look good. Israel has constantly been caught bullshitting and right wingers don't pick up a whife of it.

Terrorists fire from schools. Israel responds. Morons blame Israel.

Oh crap that' you.
My bad...