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At 10/14/10 06:10 PM, Ranger2 wrote:

At 10/14/10 03:27 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: Yet somehow they got elected by the Palestinian people:

The transistion of power wasn't peaceful. Hamas terrorized Gaza in 2006 and killed everyone loyal to Fatah, who governed the area before.

I'm a Gazan...Should I support Fatah and get killed, or support Hamas and live?
Hmmm...Who should I vote for?

This is really weird... if this is the case, then Israel should help these citizens defend themselves. Like giving them guns to protect themselves. But I heard they can't arm themselves because of some blockade that a international friend of Hamas performs.

At 10/14/10 11:05 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 10/14/10 07:59 AM, BezFriend wrote: You don't even know the Hamas personally. And yet, you judge them as absolute evil as if they are just one. This is prejudice at its finest - like how Hitler looks down at the Jews as absolute evil.

Hamas's intention is to destroy israel and to kill all zionists, hamas proudly admit it and never denied it.
Hamas's terrorists are firing rockets, slaughtering innocent jews, ambishing cars and stoning them, setting afire jews' stores. Will you believe me only after i see it with my own eyes? or i will be a liar like all these Jews.

Wow! So you're a psychic now? You can now read the mind of all Hamas and read their intentions. Do you know how absurd that claim is? How do you know if all these rocket fires aren't done by Israel so they have an excuse to invade Gaza? How can you be sure without seeing it with your own eyes? Or do you just trust and follow the government like some puppet? Come on, you have your own brilliant mind don't you? Why choose to live in prejudice?

Also, I never said anything about lies and Jews. And I think that's another form of prejudice don't you think?

At 10/14/10 09:31 PM, BezFriend wrote: Wow! So you're a psychic now? You can now read the mind of all Hamas and read their intentions. Do you know how absurd that claim is? How do you know if all these rocket fires aren't done by Israel so they have an excuse to invade Gaza? How can you be sure without seeing it with your own eyes? Or do you just trust and follow the government like some puppet?

so all the videos are made up by the israeli government? all the jews who died died because israel want them to die? Doesn't hamas's covenant say: "there is no solution for the palestinians except through Jihad"?

Come on, you have your own brilliant mind don't you? Why choose to live in prejudice?

Prejudice of whom?

At 10/15/10 12:17 AM, satanbrain wrote: so all the videos are made up by the israeli government?

What videos are you talking about? I'm not psychic like you.

:all the jews who died died because israel want them to die?

I don't know. Who is that all Jews who died? So you are saying that every Jew who died is caused by Hamas? So even natural deaths are caused by the Hamas now? That sounds absurd isn't it?

:Doesn't hamas's covenant say: "there is no solution for the palestinians except through Jihad"?

What covenant? I don't remember Muslims having covenants.

Prejudice of whom?

Prejudice of the Hamas.

Handing guns to the people doesn't really help Israel for a couple reasons:

1. You can't just hand someone a gun and go "here you go, go put down them bad guys!!!" they have to be taught how to effectively fight with one. That takes time and draws attention.

2. This would put Israel into a situation where they have clearly taken an undeniably aggressive stance with Hamas and could plunge them into open war which would cause them to seek help from their allies as Hamas would undoubtedly seek the aid of theirs. Many of Israel's allies are currently embroiled in other conflicts and would have a hard time selling another armed conflict to their home constituency.

Israel has been very smart not to try and arm Gaza as you think they should Bez.

At 10/15/10 01:24 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Handing guns to the people doesn't really help Israel for a couple reasons:

But I never said anything about helping Israel. I said about helping the citizens that are victims of generalization and labeled most often than not as Hamas.

1. You can't just hand someone a gun and go "here you go, go put down them bad guys!!!" they have to be taught how to effectively fight with one. That takes time and draws attention.

So teach them. Yes and no, it takes time but not necessarily draws attention.

2. This would put Israel into a situation where they have clearly taken an undeniably aggressive stance with Hamas and could plunge them into open war which would cause them to seek help from their allies as Hamas would undoubtedly seek the aid of theirs. Many of Israel's allies are currently embroiled in other conflicts and would have a hard time selling another armed conflict to their home constituency.

That is assuming that Israel draws attention.

Israel has been very smart not to try and arm Gaza as you think they should Bez.

Well, smart is a very relative term. I wouldn't call Israel very smart for having a quarrel in the first place.

At 10/15/10 01:07 AM, BezFriend wrote:

At 10/15/10 12:17 AM, satanbrain wrote: so all the videos are made up by the israeli government?

What videos are you talking about? I'm not psychic like you.

speeches.

all the jews who died died because israel want them to die?

I don't know. Who is that all Jews who died? So you are saying that every Jew who died is caused by Hamas? So even natural deaths are caused by the Hamas now? That sounds absurd isn't it?

Jews who died in judea and samaria by stoning and bullets which is yet a natural death.

Doesn't hamas's covenant say: "there is no solution for the palestinians except through Jihad"?

What covenant? I don't remember Muslims having covenants.

Hamas is so liberal it has, the great anti muslim, jewish, capitalist, nationalist site called 'WIKIPEDIA' remembers it.

At 10/15/10 02:13 AM, BezFriend wrote: But I never said anything about helping Israel. I said about helping the citizens that are victims of generalization and labeled most often than not as Hamas.

Including jewish citizens or only muslim citizens?

At 10/15/10 03:07 AM, satanbrain wrote: speeches.

So if I make a speech exactly like that, does that automatically makes me someone who is absolutely evil? I remember during our elocution competition that Hitler's speech was randomly picked up by a friend of mine; He recited it with passion. And I do share the belief that he probably was absolutely evil - giving me a surprise 20th birthday party; probably hoping that I would die. While we were packing up, I said to him: "I'm still alive, better luck next year." Of course, it has been years since that day has passed -- and surprisingly, I'm still alive!

all the jews who died died because israel want them to die?

I don't know. Who is that all Jews who died? So you are saying that every Jew who died is caused by Hamas? So even natural deaths are caused by the Hamas now? That sounds absurd isn't it?

Jews who died in judea and samaria by stoning and bullets which is yet a natural death.

I think they died because of the injuries they received from the stone and bullets. Where were the so called "good" Israel during that time? Why did they watch behind and not help? Where were you during the times when your brothers and sisters needs you?

Doesn't hamas's covenant say: "there is no solution for the palestinians except through Jihad"?

What covenant? I don't remember Muslims having covenants.

Hamas is so liberal it has, the great anti muslim, jewish, capitalist, nationalist site called 'WIKIPEDIA' remembers it.

Wow, I didn't know WIKIPEDIA is a great anti muslim, jewish, capitalist, nationalist. I think that claim is a little absurd don't you think?

At 10/15/10 02:13 AM, BezFriend wrote: But I never said anything about helping Israel. I said about helping the citizens that are victims of generalization and labeled most often than not as Hamas.

Including jewish citizens or only muslim citizens?

Their race or religious affiliation is simply not important.

I remember a quiz from my Philosophy class: You are in a boat with a "Jew" and a "Hamas" in the middle of the ocean. The boat is sinking and only you knows how to swim. Who do you save?

My answer, of course, was wrong and I failed the quiz. I knew it was a trick question. But before I give you the answer, I just want to know what your answer is. Who do you save?

At 10/15/10 05:08 AM, BezFriend wrote: So if I make a speech exactly like that, does that automatically makes me someone who is absolutely evil?

at least 'some' evil?

I think they died because of the injuries they received from the stone and bullets. Where were the so called "good" Israel during that time? Why did they watch behind and not help? Where were you during the times when your brothers and sisters needs you?

they died instantly. the others who were injured are hospitalized.

Wow, I didn't know WIKIPEDIA is a great anti muslim, jewish, capitalist, nationalist. I think that claim is a little absurd don't you think?

then if it doesn't, Wikipedia is telling the truth?

Their race or religious affiliation is simply not important.

Then you are saying is that their nationality is?

I remember a quiz from my Philosophy class: You are in a boat with a "Jew" and a "Hamas" in the middle of the ocean. The boat is sinking and only you knows how to swim. Who do you save?
My answer, of course, was wrong and I failed the quiz. I knew it was a trick question. But before I give you the answer, I just want to know what your answer is. Who do you save?

I'm saving myself.

At 10/15/10 07:21 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 10/15/10 05:08 AM, BezFriend wrote: So if I make a speech exactly like that, does that automatically makes me someone who is absolutely evil?

at least 'some' evil?

Alright.

I think they died because of the injuries they received from the stone and bullets. Where were the so called "good" Israel during that time? Why did they watch behind and not help? Where were you during the times when your brothers and sisters needs you?

they died instantly. the others who were injured are hospitalized.

My point is that they died not because of the existence of the "Hamas" but because of the injuries they received from the action of a few crazy person (who just happened to be a Hamas). It is possible to substitute "Hamas" with Lizzie Borden (very crazy person) and they would still die - but wouldn't mean that ALL people who live in New England is absolutely evil.

Wow, I didn't know WIKIPEDIA is a great anti muslim, jewish, capitalist, nationalist. I think that claim is a little absurd don't you think?

then if it doesn't, Wikipedia is telling the truth?

I don't think that "telling the truth" has anything to do with your absurd claims.

Their race or religious affiliation is simply not important.

Then you are saying is that their nationality is?

Nope. Not at all important.

I remember a quiz from my Philosophy class: You are in a boat with a "Jew" and a "Hamas" in the middle of the ocean. The boat is sinking and only you knows how to swim. Who do you save?
My answer, of course, was wrong and I failed the quiz. I knew it was a trick question. But before I give you the answer, I just want to know what your answer is. Who do you save?

I'm saving myself.

Wrong answer. At least I knew someone also answered the same answer as I did.

The right answer is to save whomever you can save. It doesn't matter if he is a "Jew" or a "Hamas." And for those who answered "Jew," my professor surprised them by saying that the guy actually was a Hamas named by his parents as "Jew". Thus, their prejudice blinds them on doing what the right thing to do is.

At 10/15/10 07:34 AM, BezFriend wrote: My point is that they died not because of the existence of the "Hamas" but because of the injuries they received from the action of a few crazy person (who just happened to be a Hamas). It is possible to substitute "Hamas" with Lizzie Borden (very crazy person) and they would still die - but wouldn't mean that ALL people who live in New England is absolutely evil.

thousands of terrorists are not few.

I don't think that "telling the truth" has anything to do with your absurd claims.

The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews. Wikipedia is claming this is written in Hamas Covenant.

The right answer is to save whomever you can save. It doesn't matter if he is a "Jew" or a "Hamas." And for those who answered "Jew," my professor surprised them by saying that the guy actually was a Hamas named by his parents as "Jew". Thus, their prejudice blinds them on doing what the right thing to do is.

so if hamas is actually jewish, why are they trying to kill jews?
(hamas covenant) Article 7 The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them

At 10/15/10 08:34 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 10/15/10 07:34 AM, BezFriend wrote: My point is that they died not because of the existence of the "Hamas" but because of the injuries they received from the action of a few crazy person (who just happened to be a Hamas). It is possible to substitute "Hamas" with Lizzie Borden (very crazy person) and they would still die - but wouldn't mean that ALL people who live in New England is absolutely evil.

thousands of terrorists are not few.

Yes, but thousands is still not ALL. "There are thousands of criminal and evil person in New York" does not make all New Yorkers evil.

I don't think that "telling the truth" has anything to do with your absurd claims.

The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews. Wikipedia is claming this is written in Hamas Covenant.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

The right answer is to save whomever you can save. It doesn't matter if he is a "Jew" or a "Hamas." And for those who answered "Jew," my professor surprised them by saying that the guy actually was a Hamas named by his parents as "Jew". Thus, their prejudice blinds them on doing what the right thing to do is.

so if hamas is actually jewish, why are they trying to kill jews?
(hamas covenant) Article 7 The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them

Dude, I never said anything like that. In that specific quiz answer, the guy is revealed to be named "Jew" by his Hamas parents. Please reread the quiz and the answer again.

At 10/15/10 08:41 AM, BezFriend wrote: Yes, but thousands is still not ALL. "There are thousands of criminal and evil person in New York" does not make all New Yorkers evil.

show one hamas's terrorist who isn't willing to destroy israel.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

So all of them are going to fight against zionism untill it is destroyed!

Dude, I never said anything like that. In that specific quiz answer, the guy is revealed to be named "Jew" by his Hamas parents. Please reread the quiz and the answer again.

so why did they called him jew? Did they hate him and need a reason to kill him?

At 10/16/10 12:58 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 10/15/10 08:41 AM, BezFriend wrote: Yes, but thousands is still not ALL. "There are thousands of criminal and evil person in New York" does not make all New Yorkers evil.

show one hamas's terrorist who isn't willing to destroy israel.

This argument sounds so similar to their argument: Show one Jew who isn't willing to destroy hamas.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

So all of them are going to fight against zionism untill it is destroyed!

Another absurd claim.

Dude, I never said anything like that. In that specific quiz answer, the guy is revealed to be named "Jew" by his Hamas parents. Please reread the quiz and the answer again.

so why did they called him jew? Did they hate him and need a reason to kill him?

The answer is "why not". I think it's their preference to name their son, don't you think?

At 10/15/10 02:13 AM, BezFriend wrote: But I never said anything about helping Israel. I said about helping the citizens that are victims of generalization and labeled most often than not as Hamas.

But you want Israel to bring these guns in. That is what you said. You want Israel to be responsible here, and golly gee wouldn't it be nice if they could? But in the end, countries have to do what's in the best interest of themselves and they're people. It'd be NICE if they could help the oppressed, but it's just not going to really do anything for them in this case. Welcome to reality.

So teach them. Yes and no, it takes time but not necessarily draws attention.

In what way is these people being armed and taught by Israeli's not going to draw attention? Explain this to me, because I have a hard time seeing how that's going to work.

That is assuming that Israel draws attention.

This tends to happen...because of things like spies and intelligence services. Maybe Hamas doesn't have a CIA, but I bet that there's some department within the military wing that deals with keeping an eye on what nations they don't like are up to.

Well, smart is a very relative term. I wouldn't call Israel very smart for having a quarrel in the first place.

It takes two to have a fight :)

At 10/16/10 03:06 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 10/15/10 02:13 AM, BezFriend wrote: But I never said anything about helping Israel. I said about helping the citizens that are victims of generalization and labeled most often than not as Hamas.

But you want Israel to bring these guns in. That is what you said. You want Israel to be responsible here, and golly gee wouldn't it be nice if they could? But in the end, countries have to do what's in the best interest of themselves and they're people. It'd be NICE if they could help the oppressed, but it's just not going to really do anything for them in this case. Welcome to reality.

I've been living in the cold harsh reality so your welcome has came very late. But I just want to let people know that Israel is not the victim here as they say they are. Neither is the Hamas. They are both the oppressors. And once people understand that, the faster we can stop this stupid quarrel between this two stupid brothers.

So teach them. Yes and no, it takes time but not necessarily draws attention.

In what way is these people being armed and taught by Israeli's not going to draw attention? Explain this to me, because I have a hard time seeing how that's going to work.

Well, I think you are smart enough to plan something to empower the citizens without drawing attention.

That is assuming that Israel draws attention.

This tends to happen...because of things like spies and intelligence services. Maybe Hamas doesn't have a CIA, but I bet that there's some department within the military wing that deals with keeping an eye on what nations they don't like are up to.

I think you are assuming the existence of ghosts here. And I think it is absurd.

Well, smart is a very relative term. I wouldn't call Israel very smart for having a quarrel in the first place.

It takes two to have a fight :)

And neither one of them is smart.

At 10/16/10 01:37 AM, BezFriend wrote: This argument sounds so similar to their argument: Show one Jew who isn't willing to destroy hamas.

'liberal' jews, Neturei Karta, jews who don't know hamas exist.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

So all of them are going to fight against zionism untill it is destroyed!

Another absurd claim.

If they don't, why did they wrote this in ther covenant and working to achieve it?

The answer is "why not". I think it's their preference to name their son, don't you think?

that's mean the father will be named: Abu-Jew.

At 10/16/10 05:25 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 10/16/10 01:37 AM, BezFriend wrote: This argument sounds so similar to their argument: Show one Jew who isn't willing to destroy hamas.

'liberal' jews, Neturei Karta, jews who don't know hamas exist.

Show me. You've just written about them, and I can also do the same to "show" you that there are Hamas that don't know that Jews even exists.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

So all of them are going to fight against zionism untill it is destroyed!

Another absurd claim.

If they don't, why did they wrote this in ther covenant and working to achieve it?

What covenant? Wait, who?

The answer is "why not". I think it's their preference to name their son, don't you think?

that's mean the father will be named: Abu-Jew.

How did you know that? Did you meet the man personally?

At 10/16/10 05:29 AM, BezFriend wrote: Show me. You've just written about them, and I can also do the same to "show" you that there are Hamas that don't know that Jews even exists.

here is their stupid site. for the liberals, you can find them yourself.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

What covenant? Wait, who?

look again.

How did you know that? Did you meet the man personally?

I know that a father is named Abu-<insert son's name>

At 10/16/10 06:04 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 10/16/10 05:29 AM, BezFriend wrote: Show me. You've just written about them, and I can also do the same to "show" you that there are Hamas that don't know that Jews even exists.

here is their stupid site. for the liberals, you can find them yourself.

I hacked the site and the triangulation comes from an IP located inside Israel.

I still don't see the connection between your absurd claims and what Wikipedia has written. The question: "so what?" comes to my mind.

What covenant? Wait, who?

look again.

Huh? What the hell dude. First you make absurd claims about wikipedia and now you're asking me to look at something again, which you haven't asked me to look before. I'm sorry but this has to stop. I can't look AGAIN if I hadn't looked at it before.

How did you know that? Did you meet the man personally?

I know that a father is named Abu-<insert son's name>

So your father is named Abu-<insert son's name>. Cool, first time to hear a person named with symbols such as "<", "-" and ">". Anyway, it doesn't mean that if your father is named Abu-<insert son's name> means that every father out there should have a name that starts with "Abu-" The world of Fathers' name don't revolve around the name of your father.

At 10/16/10 03:20 AM, BezFriend wrote: I've been living in the cold harsh reality so your welcome has came very late. But I just want to let people know that Israel is not the victim here as they say they are. Neither is the Hamas. They are both the oppressors. And once people understand that, the faster we can stop this stupid quarrel between this two stupid brothers.

They've both done some wrong to each other and all that, yes. But the problem it seems is you have both sides wanting to say they have had it worse and have some sort of "moral high ground". Which really isn't unlike any country or most people. The hardest thing in the world is also the easiest thing: accepting you aren't perfect, and trying to work with people you don't really like for the common good.

Well, I think you are smart enough to plan something to empower the citizens without drawing attention.

No, no, don't turn this around. I asked YOU to tell ME how they could do this without drawing attention? I asked you for a plan...and you turn it back on me. Should I take this to mean you don't know how they could do it without drawing attention?

I think you are assuming the existence of ghosts here. And I think it is absurd.

No, I'm assuming that Hamas, which is a government entity with a military wing and that as part of this entity they have people trained and implanted to keep an eye on a neighbor that they are actively hostile with in Israel. No "ghosts" involved, just the fact that EVERY country that I'm aware of that has enemies does this.

And neither one of them is smart.

Ah, some fairness. Excellent, that's all I was really looking for there.

Look, I want people to realize one thing: Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Look at its charter; it explicitly says that they will destroy Israel and Judaism. Hamas doesn't want a two-state solution. They want one Palestine. That's it. They will not compromise and they should not be talked to like they are legitimate representatives of a peace process.

Oh, well you've me convinced now.

You can't ignore Hamas when talking about any sort of solution or peace process between Israel and Palestine, it's just unrealistic. Even in Ireland we had to sit down with the IRA and negotiate a cease-fire before things could seriously progress. Signing a treaty saying the two nations are at peace when there's still militant activity would be ludicrous.

At 10/24/10 05:36 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: You can't ignore Hamas when talking about any sort of solution or peace process between Israel and Palestine, it's just unrealistic.

You're right, and therein lies the problem: Hamas cannot be negotiated with or trusted. If there is to be a real peace process, one of these must happen
a: Hamas is replaced by another government, (but it must be trustworthy)
b: Hamas undergoes MAJOR reforms and becomes trustworthy
c: Hamas is replaced by the Palestinian Authority, which is somewhat trustworthy.

At 10/24/10 09:32 PM, Ranger2 wrote:

You're right, and therein lies the problem: Hamas cannot be negotiated with or trusted. If there is to be a real peace process, one of these must happen
a: Hamas is replaced by another government, (but it must be trustworthy)
b: Hamas undergoes MAJOR reforms and becomes trustworthy
c: Hamas is replaced by the Palestinian Authority, which is somewhat trustworthy.

A undermines Palestinian sovereignity and these concepts of "democracy" we keep hearing about. What's the point of them keeping their land if they can't choose a government?

B implies that Hamas has a leader which can perform these acts. The current problem is ANY person can form a group and claim to be Hamas. There is no system to enforce policy and hasn't been since Israel assisinated the head of Hamas in 2004 amidst peace talks.

C is the same damn thing as A.

To me, the first issue that has to be resolved is that the IDF begins to treat the locals better. They need to build relations with the Palestinians. Understanding removes fear.

Transparency is another issue - the blockades have to go. Hamas are entitled to own weapons and purchase them - even if you disagree, you can't stop them. Letting food rot in ports is absurds. As is obstructing UN investigations.

Third is the zealotry has to go - the self entitlement crap is snotty. I mean, when you're talking of Pope Ratzinger you have to use this to accuse him of anti-semitism? That's probably the least offensive thing he's said so far! Joking aside, Israels paranoia is getting comparable to Iosaf Stalin's syphilis fuelled madness.

Third is infrastructure, it needs to be built and fast. Stupid crap like this isn't cool. While the IDF argues its near Hamas bases, which boggles why the IDF haven't levelled it already, it seems like a pretty bland excuse. They need roads, schools, hospitals, houses. You can't except complacency from people who sleep on the ground or people who know they nor anyone they know will receive any sort of education.

At 10/24/10 05:10 PM, Ranger2 wrote: Look, I want people to realize one thing: Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Look at its charter; it explicitly says that they will destroy Israel and Judaism. Hamas doesn't want a two-state solution. They want one Palestine. That's it. They will not compromise and they should not be talked to like they are legitimate representatives of a peace process.

Look, I want people to realize one thing: Israel wants to destroy Hamas. Look at its policies; it explicitly says that they will destroy Hamas and Islam. Israel doesn't want a two-state solution. They want one Israel. That's it. They will not compromise and they should not be talked to like they are legitimate representatives of a peace process.

I find it funny that the Vatican even needed to explain that. Because my understanding was this sort of issue was why Christians were thrown out of the Jewish religion to begin with. They believed Christ redeemed the WORLD and brought forth a new non-Jew exclusive covenant with anyone that was willing to convert to Christianity.

This is not anti-semitism, but it certainly isn't something Israel wants to hear. But is this Muslim propaganda? Fuck no. To me Muslim propaganda is if The Vatican were to say something like "Jews rights are less then Muslim rights. Muslims should do everything and anything in their power to remove the Jews and take what is theres". I think statements like this betray the kind of zealotry that makes people mistrustful of Israel and it's stated goals of wanting to exist peacefully.

At 10/25/10 01:36 PM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 10/24/10 09:32 PM, Ranger2 wrote:

a: Hamas is replaced by another government, (but it must be trustworthy)
b: Hamas undergoes MAJOR reforms and becomes trustworthy
c: Hamas is replaced by the Palestinian Authority, which is somewhat trustworthy.

A undermines Palestinian sovereignity and these concepts of "democracy" we keep hearing about. What's the point of them keeping their land if they can't choose a government?

They didn't vote for Hamas to violently seize control of the Gaza strip.

B implies that Hamas has a leader which can perform these acts. The current problem is ANY person can form a group and claim to be Hamas. There is no system to enforce policy and hasn't been since Israel assisinated the head of Hamas in 2004 amidst peace talks.

Fringe groups can launch a rocket from time to time, but there is no doubt that there is a single dominant Hamas group that governs the Gaza strip.

C is the same damn thing as A.

C is what the people actually voted for.

To me, the first issue that has to be resolved is that the IDF begins to treat the locals better. They need to build relations with the Palestinians. Understanding removes fear.

Understanding requires information. The Gaza strip exists in isolation with strict control over movement and media.

Transparency is another issue - the blockades have to go. Hamas are entitled to own weapons and purchase them;

No one says they can't make their own weapons or surrender the ones they have. The Gaza Strip is certainly not defenseless.

Third is the zealotry has to go - the self entitlement crap is snotty.

You could say that for both sides, though it's the Palestinians who have in the past taken it to suicide bombing civilian areas for bloodshed alone.

Third is infrastructure, it needs to be built and fast. Stupid crap like this isn't cool. While the IDF argues its near Hamas bases, which boggles why the IDF haven't levelled it already, it seems like a pretty bland excuse. They need roads, schools, hospitals, houses. You can't except complacency from people who sleep on the ground or people who know they nor anyone they know will receive any sort of education.

How is this not a reflection of Hamas' policy? You don't seem to be denying that Hamas builds its bases, stores weapons, etc. from these locations.
Israeli generosity and restraint is not mindboggling. In fact, it's the biggest reason why places like the West Bank and Gaza weren't incorporated into Israel decades ago.

At 10/25/10 08:25 PM, adrshepard wrote:

They didn't vote for Hamas to violently seize control of the Gaza strip.

That's a lie.

Fringe groups can launch a rocket from time to time, but there is no doubt that there is a single dominant Hamas group that governs the Gaza strip.

That's a lie.

(It's o.k, I linked to this one before. He's a PhD if you'd like to dispute the article, and is not nor ever was employed by Al-Jazeera.)

C is what the people actually voted for.

And that's a lie.

Understanding requires information. The Gaza strip exists in isolation with strict control over movement and media.

Um, the IDF are occupying Gaza and are the ones who control media reports and civilian movement.

No one says they can't make their own weapons or surrender the ones they have. The Gaza Strip is certainly not defenseless.

That shit isn't even relevant. I was talking about border rights, you just saw guns.

You could say that for both sides, though it's the Palestinians who have in the past taken it to suicide bombing civilian areas for bloodshed alone.

And because Israel doesn't strap a person to the bomb there's is more civilised?

How is this not a reflection of Hamas' policy? You don't seem to be denying that Hamas builds its bases, stores weapons, etc. from these locations.

I never said either way because, regardless what the IDF said (and would naturaly say), we don't actualy know. It suits you to say they do, they don't suit me either way because I don't see why you have a knock a building down to kill a guy with a rocket launcher.

Israeli generosity and restraint is not mindboggling. In fact, it's the biggest reason why places like the West Bank and Gaza weren't incorporated into Israel decades ago.

Uhh..annexation of land during the 6 Day War?

But seriously, you guys keep talking about 50 years ago like it was yesterday. I am talking about the current situation and not the "plight" of Israel in a world of anti-Semetic neo facists like you might feel. It's not a constructive arguement, it's not even a destructive arguement. It's just taking a tangent from the discourse using a history lesson from grandpa and running with it.

TL;DR Contribute some real plz.

At 10/26/10 10:21 AM, Chris-V2 wrote:

At 10/25/10 08:25 PM, adrshepard wrote:

They didn't vote for Hamas to violently seize control of the Gaza strip.

That's a lie.

so they did and are paying the price?

Fringe groups can launch a rocket from time to time, but there is no doubt that there is a single dominant Hamas group that governs the Gaza strip.

That's a lie.

Because you and Al-Jazeera know better than who is fighting them, right?

(It's o.k, I linked to this one before. He's a PhD if you'd like to dispute the article, and is not nor ever was employed by Al-Jazeera.)

It's ok because he is voluntarily saying what they want to hear?

Understanding requires information. The Gaza strip exists in isolation with strict control over movement and media.

Um, the IDF are occupying Gaza and are the ones who control media reports and civilian movement.

no they are not wasting time in such matters. hamas controls it, unlike Al-Jazeera must claim.

You could say that for both sides, though it's the Palestinians who have in the past taken it to suicide bombing civilian areas for bloodshed alone.

And because Israel doesn't strap a person to the bomb there's is more civilised?

It is more civilised because we are trying to kill our attackers and they are trying to kill civilians.

How is this not a reflection of Hamas' policy? You don't seem to be denying that Hamas builds its bases, stores weapons, etc. from these locations.

I never said either way because, regardless what the IDF said (and would naturaly say), we don't actualy know. It suits you to say they do, they don't suit me either way because I don't see why you have a knock a building down to kill a guy with a rocket launcher.

You may not actualy know, but the photographs and rocket's angles prove else.

Israeli generosity and restraint is not mindboggling. In fact, it's the biggest reason why places like the West Bank and Gaza weren't incorporated into Israel decades ago.

Uhh..annexation of land during the 6 Day War?

repossessing the land while aiding the locals is far beyond anything they would have done to us in our place.

But seriously, you guys keep talking about 50 years ago like it was yesterday. I am talking about the current situation and not the "plight" of Israel in a world of anti-Semetic neo facists like you might feel. It's not a constructive arguement, it's not even a destructive arguement. It's just taking a tangent from the discourse using a history lesson from grandpa and running with it.

Grandpa who is reliving the fear of utter annihilation? (grandpa as a metaphor)