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At 9/16/10 12:42 AM, satanbrain wrote:

get your side so I can balance this out" and they say "no chance, go away now"?

israel doesn't cooperates with politically motivated investigations.

Correction: the only politically motivated investigations Israel supports are its own.

At 9/16/10 12:42 AM, satanbrain wrote:

They're "one-sided" because Israel is actively making the choice to keep it that way.

they are making to choice to investigate themselves.

Which is one sided.

At 9/17/10 01:46 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: Geneva Convention is absolutely supposed to apply to everyone...or at least everyone that signed onto it. Pretty sure it's everyone that signed on. I've been critical of my own nations violations of that document as well as I believe acts of torture, terrorism, or other such acts are completely immoral and unwarranted in a civilized society. You can't fight evil with evil tactics lest you completely lose the moral high ground and just become a more powerful evil yourself.

so i understand that no arabian country need to sign Geneva Convention? sending food, medinice and help is so immoral?

The UN doesn't have a great amount of power because it is not meant to act as some sort of world government or police force. It's more about peacekeeping and diplomacy.

that is becuase dictatorships are trying to use it for their own good.

The UN act like it cares about human rights, yet it lets human rights violator dictatorships being part of the human rights council.

Like which ones?

the ones who are responsible for this.

you say that every anti-israeli source is outside and every pro-israeli source is biased. The hypocrisy of that is stunning.

Again, you're not understanding or reading what I'm saying. I'm not saying every anti-source would be outside or unbiased. In fact an "anti-israeli" source WOULD be biased, but a source is not "anti-Israeli" just because it doesn't agree with Israel and the story it presents. You complain about dictatorships but that is how dictatorships operate "every source that doesn't agree is against us!". I just don't trust the "official" sources to be the be and end all because even in a democracy the government can and does get up to shady illegal shit they'd rather not get out there and that's why a free press is so important.

but the Palestinian Government is not official right? witnesses by israel are liars and from palastine are not, right? saying that every video is a lie created by the government is ignoring the truth.

I've seen so much blatant corruption and bullshit pulled on the citizenry of many nations that I firmly believe there must be other independent sources investigating to keep the process honest.

first explain me how is taking every rumor and thought palestinians have against israel as the truth is independent. how is ignoring israel responses and proof is honest.

At 9/17/10 07:44 AM, satanbrain wrote:

so i understand that no arabian country need to sign Geneva Convention? sending food, medinice and help is so immoral?

Israel has yet to sign several arms agreements, so let's not get into this. And Israel has broken the rules of the Geneva Convention repeatedly anyway, so I really don't see your point here.

that is becuase dictatorships are trying to use it for their own good.

Yeah, because it's not large capitalist countries that run the UN.

but the Palestinian Government is not official right? witnesses by israel are liars and from palastine are not, right? saying that every video is a lie created by the government is ignoring the truth.

first explain me how is taking every rumor and thought palestinians have against israel as the truth is independent. how is ignoring israel responses and proof is honest.

But you're just insinuating that. Just because there's reports of Israel doing something bad doesn't mean people were told this by Palestinians. But at least if they are they're subtle enough to not just make their own webpage. Do you think when the world was looking at aparthide in South Africa and the government made a webpage and said "No aparthide here, reporters r lyin. Here, a picture of a black person smiling!" that it should have been enough to stop people investigating? That's not sufficent evidence, and there's no "proof" to back up their claims.

I think if you aren't even interested in what the UN or Human Rights Organization have to say then war-time politics is a little out of your leauge. They're sort of well respected sources of information and unbiased fact-finding.

At 9/17/10 07:44 AM, satanbrain wrote: so i understand that no arabian country need to sign Geneva Convention? sending food, medinice and help is so immoral?

Why do I try? You just put words into my mouth and act like I'm saying things I never said. I believe everyone should sign onto the Geneva Convention, but if they don't, what are we supposed to do? Hold them at gunpoint and make them do it? Then we're no better then the people who do such things that we oppose. But really, this has nothing to do with anything I was saying. My point was those who CHOSE to be bound by it must be expected to hold to it and keep to the standard of it.

Those things aren't. But when you're accused of human rights violations and your attitude is "fuck off out of our business...we'll investigate this" it looks a wee bit suspicious to me.

that is becuase dictatorships are trying to use it for their own good.

Elaborate please.

the ones who are responsible for this.

Responsible for what? Who? NAMES!! SOURCES!!!! LINKS!!! It's not fucking hard. Type more then one goddamn sentence as a response. If you don't care to have a dialogue, then kindly don't respond.

but the Palestinian Government is not official right?

Official in what way? As a "legitimately recognized" government? Or are we talking about their news sources? If we're talking about a news source identifying itself as with the Palestinian Government, and the Palestinian Government says "yes, they are official" then yes, I would hold them to the same scrutiny I'm holding Israel. The problem is, that's NOT where all these things are coming from. It's not people looking at the official government line from both sides and choosing who they believe, there's a lot of independent journalism (some of it from countries allied with Israel) that in the interest of being fair and getting at the truth are reporting some things that might not make Israel look so good. Then when Israel is fairly and correctly asked to get their side on the record, they say "no comment". So in that instance what can anyone do but report what they know, report that when they tried to contact Israel and let them have their say, their say was "no comment"?

witnesses by israel are liars and from palastine are not, right?

Not what I said at all. Never did. Again, you're either semi illiterate, or you're seeing what you want to see, you tell me which it is.

saying that every video is a lie created by the government is ignoring the truth.

Once again, not something I ever said. Either you're illiterate, or you're just seeing what you want to.

first explain me how is taking every rumor and thought palestinians have against israel as the truth is independent. how is ignoring israel responses and proof is honest.

I don't ignore Israel's responses first off. I just question the source since they have all the reason in the world to skew the facts to make themselves look in the right. Palestine has the exact same motivation, maybe more so since they're not a recognized nation in the West and that's something I'm sure they'd like to have. I also don't take every "rumor" of Palestine as the truth. But when the BBC or another legitimate news outlet with a track record is saying "these are the facts as we understand it" I tend to give them much more credence then Israel OR Palestine. Neither side has a good history when it comes to how they relate to each other, so I'd much rather try to get my information from sources who most clearly appear to have no stake in blackening or elevating the reputation of one particular side.

At 9/17/10 08:33 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: My point was those who CHOSE to be bound by it must be expected to hold to it and keep to the standard of it.

so how come those who don't are complaining about violations of it?

Those things aren't. But when you're accused of human rights violations and your attitude is "fuck off out of our business...we'll investigate this" it looks a wee bit suspicious to me.

the accusers look more than a 'wee' suspicious too me.

Elaborate please.

divert the UN from their own crimes.

Responsible for what? Who? NAMES!! SOURCES!!!! LINKS!!! It's not fucking hard. Type more then one goddamn sentence as a response. If you don't care to have a dialogue, then kindly don't respond.

responsible for the biased UN. names - could include anyone who took part and didn't object this anti-israeli council.

Official in what way? As a "legitimately recognized" government? Or are we talking about their news sources? If we're talking about a news source identifying itself as with the Palestinian Government, and the Palestinian Government says "yes, they are official" then yes, I would hold them to the same scrutiny I'm holding Israel.

so because their government isn't saying it's offical it's true?

The problem is, that's NOT where all these things are coming from. It's not people looking at the official government line from both sides and choosing who they believe, there's a lot of independent journalism (some of it from countries allied with Israel)

countries like those who are allied but still working against?

that in the interest of being fair and getting at the truth are reporting some things that might not make Israel look so good. Then when Israel is fairly and correctly asked to get their side on the record, they say "no comment". So in that instance what can anyone do but report what they know, report that when they tried to contact Israel and let them have their say, their say was "no comment"?

again, you believe the 'truth' which tells you israel said there is no comment, when i show you the comment you say it isn't true

Not what I said at all. Never did. Again, you're either semi illiterate, or you're seeing what you want to see, you tell me which it is.

so only soldiers are liars?

first explain me how is taking every rumor and thought palestinians have against israel as the truth is independent. how is ignoring israel responses and proof is honest.

But when the BBC or another legitimate news outlet with a track record is saying "these are the facts as we understand it"

they understand what is helping their agenda, they are shown only half truth. why didn't they asked the IDF if these rumors were true?

so I'd much rather try to get my information from sources who most clearly appear to have no stake in blackening or elevating the reputation of one particular side.

no stake except their ongoing deligitimization of israel and their hasty conclusions?

At 9/17/10 07:44 AM, satanbrain wrote:

Like which ones?

the ones who are responsible for this

Most of the articles on that site just talk about handouts given by pro-Palestinian groups, and I'd love to see France respond, it has so many Anti-Muslim laws.

If this were true then Israel would have no relations to any other nation at all, which is not true in the slightest.

I don't feel like reading a whole book which is this thread so I'll say this:

Don't fuck with jews.

Amen, Lorkas. Amen.
Happy Yom Kippur!

"There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews."

TRUTH

Golda Meir FTW!!!!!

At 9/18/10 10:24 AM, satanbrain wrote: so how come those who don't are complaining about violations of it?

What do you mean? You mean those who aren't bound to it? I'm seeing complaints coming from countries who are as well as those who aren't.

the accusers look more than a 'wee' suspicious too me.

Well, we all know why that is...not that they're lily white and innocent...but we've all ready been over why you keep using this tactic I think.

divert the UN from their own crimes.

Elaborating requires more then one sentence, and little things like evidence for when you make outrageous claims. If you'd like, I'll get out my dictionary and give you the textbook definition of the word "elaborate".

responsible for the biased UN. names - could include anyone who took part and didn't object this anti-israeli council.

Like WHO? This is the problem, I really think you don't have any, you don't know who the fuck you're talking about. You've just got it in your head the UN is full of anti-semetic bogeymen and you're keeping it nice and vague so you can perpetuate the myth. Prove that the human rights council, or hell ANY council in the UN is anti-israeli...go on and try. Disagreeing with israel, investigating israel, or anything like that is NOT anti-israeli necessarily. Nor is it necessary "anti-" ANY country they might be investigating.

so because their government isn't saying it's offical it's true?

I'm not even sure what we're arguing about anymore. Are sources like the BBC talking boxes for Hamas now? Are they the official source of Hamas? This is what you seem to fail to realize, there are more organizations reporting stuff then just "official" israeli and "official" palestinian.

countries like those who are allied but still working against?

Like who? You always do this vague conspiracy shit and it's tiring. But I forgot, it's anybody who doesn't kiss Israel's ass and say they're innocent right? Just because you're allied with somebody doesn't mean you always agree with what they're doing or support them 100%. France and the US are allies, but France refused to participate in Iraq. Sometimes friends disagree.

again, you believe the 'truth' which tells you israel said there is no comment, when i show you the comment you say it isn't true

I mean Israel says "no comment" to the outside organizations. Choosing only to comment in their own press sources and releases. In essence, Israel is attempting to control the information flow and frame the dialogue in the most favorable way to them. I'm not saying that makes it a lie, but I'm saying it makes me suspicious and I distrust that method of dissemination because it is suspicious to me. Go on the record with a legitimate outside news organization, you're allied with nations who have several of those. Go on the record with UN investigators, you're allied with all the true power players in the UN anyway.

so only soldiers are liars?

Again, words in the mouth. Don't even know how the fuck you come up with that as a response anyway.

they understand what is helping their agenda, they are shown only half truth. why didn't they asked the IDF if these rumors were true?

How do you know they don't? If the official stance of Israel and the IDF is to be uncooperative then what more can they do? That's the question you keep ducking.

If you get into a fight with someone, and I ask the other guy how it went down, and he tells me, and I ask you, and you're response is "none of your business" or "no comment" and it's my JOB to write up a report about the fight to the best of my ability? How can I possibly have your side if you won't give it to me.

Also I think the term "rumors" is pretty inappropriate here as well.

no stake except their ongoing deligitimization of israel and their hasty conclusions?

Prove it. PROVE IT. Prove the conspiracy, or fuck off back to tin foil hat land. You bitch about people discrediting Israel and making unfair assumptions and accusations. Yet here you are claiming the world is plotting against Israel with absolutely no solid proof.

And in other news:

Avigdor Lieberman wants to redraw the Israeli borders to exclude some Arab Israelis and include some Jewish West Bank settlements.

This should be a real boost to the peace process.....

At 9/19/10 08:47 AM, bcdemon wrote:

Avigdor Lieberman wants to redraw the Israeli borders to exclude some Arab Israelis and include some Jewish West Bank settlements.

This should be a real boost to the peace process.....

Both sides aren't serious. I support Israel's right to exist, but both sides aren't serious about peace.

Israel wants too much to build settlements and incorporate them into Israel. How can there be a Palestine if there aren't any Palestinians?

Israel's problem: It will not give up enough

And the Palestinians are still dangerously anti-Semitic and anti-Western. If they had their own state they would declare war again on Israel. Hamas and Palestinian Authority people still bomb and fire rockets into Israel, and are still oppressing their own people. They refuse to recognize Israel, and how can there be a two state solution with that?

Palestine's problem: It wants too much and still is violent.

At 9/19/10 08:47 AM, bcdemon wrote: And in other news:

Avigdor Lieberman wants to redraw the Israeli borders to exclude some Arab Israelis and include some Jewish West Bank settlements.

This should be a real boost to the peace process.....

i already said that, if palestinians are going to banish jews they can expect for the same thing.

Darn Palestinians, not like you ever hear about an Israeli with guns.

Just saying that there's probably too much money in this conflict for it to go away. The media likes it, arms companies like it, governments even like it because it diffuses international attention.

At 9/25/10 04:50 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: Darn Palestinians, not like you ever hear about an Israeli with guns.

Just saying that there's probably too much money in this conflict for it to go away. The media likes it, arms companies like it, governments even like it because it diffuses international attention.

You think this war is being prolonged by arms companies? It's just perpetuated by Hamas vowing to kill all Jews and Israel being sick and tired of being threatened, and unwilling to make concessions.

israel has greater enemies than hamas, like syrria. if the companies wanted war they would wage war with an enemy you need many arms to defeat.

I always thought of Jewish people as well educated and very much aware of what goes down on this globe. This stereotype for me was wrecked when I visited Israel and spoke to the university youth there. The ignorance, stupidity and hatred would be scary if it weren't so damn pathetic and hypocritical. There were a lot of good people I met there too, but the majority is like rabid dogs when they see an Arab. To all the Israelis that hate Palestine- have you already forgotten what it's like to be the underdog? Have you forgotten what its like fighting with sticks and stones against tanks? What it's like when you're fenced off, away from the world where no one hears of the crimes on your people? I think you have forgotten everything from 1939 or on purpose try not to remember in malicious intent. You nearly got invaded by my countrymen during the Yom Kippur war and would have lost both your lands and lives, because even your army which you love so wouldn't stand a chance against the Soviet Union. I don't understand why after the horrors of WWII for your people, you'd just draw attention of psychopaths on yourselves again. I foresee a bleak future for your country if this continues, even though I wish you well.

To poster above with the picture of the Israeli soldier protecting a baby while shooting to a Palestinian hiding behind a child - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjEd4hJNV CE these are your heroes. Nothing more than wardogs, the trash of the battlefield.

At 9/26/10 06:44 AM, SeaLion88 wrote: To poster above with the picture of the Israeli soldier protecting a baby while shooting to a Palestinian hiding behind a child - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjEd4hJNV CE these are your heroes. Nothing more than wardogs, the trash of the battlefield.

prove the man really is a palestinian civilian. and even if he is, maybe the soldiers were escorting him from behind and protecting him?

Right, right then they gave him a sandwich and a blowjob to say goodbye. If this was an ideal world the UN would be on this, since inducing collateral death is a war crime. Some of the extreme cases of Israeli nationalism (maybe Zionism) are starting to resemble the executioners that murdered their own grandparents. Sad stuff.

SeaLion88, do you think the Israelis are worse than Hamas, who openly advocate slaughtering all Jews and Westerners? They actually want the Holocaust to continue; Israel is so paranoid because they don't want it to happen again.

At 9/26/10 12:03 PM, Ranger2 wrote: SeaLion88, do you think the Israelis are worse than Hamas, who openly advocate slaughtering all Jews and Westerners? They actually want the Holocaust to continue; Israel is so paranoid because they don't want it to happen again.

I think this is the wrong question to be asking. I get what's motivating you to say it, and those elements are without question horrible and wrong...but to me this dances right on that borderline of saying "look...because they hate us, because we're scared, because they want to attack us...anything we do to them is not wrong or criminal. It's justified. We can strike at them pre-emptively, with everything we have and hey! It's ok, because they don't like us".

Not necessarily saying that's what you believe or what everyone believes but that is what that sort of line of thinking can lead to.

At 9/26/10 08:01 AM, satanbrain wrote: prove the man really is a palestinian civilian. and even if he is, maybe the soldiers were escorting him from behind and protecting him?

That doesn't make any sense, surely they'd be standing in front of him as well as in the back IF THEY WANTED TO PROTECT HIM!

Admitting this happens doesn't mean Israel is evil, it means individual soldiers are at times bigots, this isn't embarrassing all countries have a small portion of their army being bigots, rapists etc. as they are only human beings. You could've backed it up by saying that they weren't given the command to do so and were doing it by themselves, but I don't understand why you feel the need to defend every single Israeli soldier even when they're clearly in the wrong.

At 9/26/10 12:03 PM, Ranger2 wrote: SeaLion88, do you think the Israelis are worse than Hamas, who openly advocate slaughtering all Jews and Westerners? They actually want the Holocaust to continue; Israel is so paranoid because they don't want it to happen again.

YOu think Hamas is in a position to continue the Holocaust?

At 9/26/10 01:36 PM, Warforger wrote: That doesn't make any sense, surely they'd be standing in front of him as well as in the back IF THEY WANTED TO PROTECT HIM!

Admitting this happens doesn't mean Israel is evil, it means individual soldiers are at times bigots, this isn't embarrassing all countries have a small portion of their army being bigots, rapists etc. as they are only human beings.

and using human shields while hamas is showing no mercy for civilians makes sense?

Son, first you say that they're taking care of the poor guy whom you doubt is a Palestinian and now you say: well he deserved it because Hamas is evil. I don't understand at all.

to Ranger2- it's not a question of whose worse. Whose worse - the guy who raped 20 women or the guy who raped 21? I don't support Hamas, but war is rarely waged on them. For a drop of blood lost of an Israeli or some douche from Hamas a bucket is spilled of the Arabic civilians. It might be hard to believe, and its no wonder considering the bullshit news we receive, but these are people as well, and most of them don't walk around all day wishing death upon infidels or going on some crazy Fatwa. As for the holocaust, who has the capability to eradicate who? This reminds me more of a fight for living space - just like the German "Drang nach Osten", than for existence.

At 9/26/10 01:48 PM, satanbrain wrote: and using human shields while hamas is showing no mercy for civilians makes sense?

Its called a "shield"

At 9/26/10 06:44 AM, SeaLion88 wrote: What it's like when you're fenced off, away from the world where no one hears of the crimes on your people?

Fenced off? Tell me, what sort of countries border Israel? Westernized, democratic regimes with no history of aggression against Israel?

To poster above with the picture of the Israeli soldier protecting a baby while shooting to a Palestinian hiding behind a child - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjEd4hJNV CE these are your heroes. Nothing more than wardogs, the trash of the battlefield.

Ignorant slime, read the comments as of my posting. They are using the civilian neighbor as a disguise on a high-risk raid, so that whoever is inside doesn't instantly start firing through the door upon hearing "police, open up" or whatever they say.
Look very closely at the moment when the civilian knocks on the door. It's very subtle, because the clip was edited for propaganda purposes.
Which way does he start to move?
To the right, away from the door, through which an Israeli presumably enters first.
If he were being used as a shield, he would be entering first to absorb the bullets. This isn't a warzone; no camera crew would be just standing by watching if it were. The danger lies inside the building. Prodding him in front along the stairs is not using him as a shield, they are directing him to where they want him to knock. My guess is that they only raided the one room.

Now, I've heard things like tying up a Palestinian kid to a humvee to prevent his friends from throwing stones (hilarious, though the men were disciplined if I remember), but this isn't a legitimate example. If you had video of Israeli soldiers engagiing enemies while standing behind civilians, or from a civilian building while preventing innocents from escaping, then you would have something.

It's stuff like this that leads Israel to distrust foreign media and remain uncooperative with "human rights" groups, which in turn leads them to put their trust wholly in Palestinian civilians' accounts.

Satanbrain, just give it up. Your responses are poorly conceived. It won't be a "victory" for them so much as a learning experience for you.

Slime... wtf?

At 9/26/10 07:34 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 9/26/10 01:48 PM, satanbrain wrote: and using human shields while hamas is showing no mercy for civilians makes sense?

Its called a "shield"

a shield that was not harm?

At 9/26/10 08:47 PM, SeaLion88 wrote: Slime... wtf?

I'll admit, I lol'd.

I still agree with AViewAskewed. The Pro-Israel arguement seems to be down to moralism. And saying that disagreeing with Israel's actions is like perpetuating some sort of Arab-Nazi pro Holocaust culture is possible the most absurd idea I have ever heard. It's pretty much just dumbing down the arguement because we're having to defend ourselves from statements we never made in the first place. Enough with the strawmans already!

And, unfortunately, I'm feeling that this war is going to be perpetuated for quite a while. Israel has not made any action to stop the settlement freeze in Gaza and the talks are more than likely just going to fall apart. This is going to worsen the morale of the people more than anything else, it's been a diplomatic debacle.

At 9/28/10 06:29 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: And, unfortunately, I'm feeling that this war is going to be perpetuated for quite a while. Israel has not made any action to stop the settlement freeze in Gaza and the talks are more than likely just going to fall apart. This is going to worsen the morale of the people more than anything else, it's been a diplomatic debacle.

and palestinians helped by killing 4 civilians?