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At 5/8/10 01:51 AM, fli wrote: American flag bandannas... the article said.
This wasn't a t-shirt with a company exploiting the red-white-and-blue. Something like that could be overlooked.

Bandannas, in general, isn't what most people call everyday apparel.

Click the video. Watch the clip. You don't even have to watch more than 10 seconds.
It's RIGHT THERE.
Exact same shirt.

But now we're splitting hairs.

We can split hairs over tackiness.
But we're not gonna split hairs over what shirt he was wearing in the video. Mainly because.....I have eyes.....and I can read....

White T. flag in the middle. "Old Navy" across the top.

Point is, this case is being blown bigger than what it is, and it's being blown up to garner anti-Mexican and anti-Chicano sentiment.

Who's doing that?
I'm garnering anti-PC bullshit sentiment.

I think you're WAY to personally invested in the issue. Your reactions seem more from the gut than from calculation and deep thought.

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At 5/8/10 02:12 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote: what, for the video? how am i supposed to know?

"Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out."

to think that a bunch of buddies just randomly happened to dress themselves all in the same theme that day without having done so intentionally is kinda ridiculous. i'm not saying it's worthy of all this fuss, or that it was even meant in a disrespectful manner... just that it seems pretty damn obvious they did it on purpose.

Of course, I've never seen more than one North Face jacket per group of people. Clearly any group with 4 people wearing north face jackets is doing so intentionally.

And dude! Check it out man! Like, half the high school must have gotten together and decided to wear blue, because everyone's jeans are the same color!!

I repeat:
TWO were wearing flag apparel. If all 5 were wearing flag apparel, ALL 5 would have gotten in trouble, yes?

Know how I know? The other 3 didn't get in trouble. That's how I know only 2 were wearing flag apparel.

but hey, what do i know... maybe one day next week they'll all show up to school dressed up as the uncanny X-Men by yet another freak coincidence too.

I thought skinny jeans were the fad nowadays.

And it'll only be appropriate if you count sunglasses as Cyclop's visor.
That way blue jeans can count as "flag apparel", and your analogy will make sense.

Do you own any black t-shirts? Oh yeah, that's actually Batman apparel, so remember that the next time you wear a suit.

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At 5/8/10 02:09 AM, Imperator wrote: I think you're WAY to personally invested in the issue. Your reactions seem more from the gut than from calculation and deep thought.

Well, I do have something invested considering that I'm a Chicano-- and when Cinco de Mayo comes, it's inevitable some guy gonna bitch, "What's happening to my America," when the holiday isn't exclusive but inclusive.

Yet, nobody is mentioning about the Chicano soldiers with their floats on the Cinco de Mayo parades through out the country.

And instead-- they're blowing this one instance (which isn't even the community's fault)-- to make the community as Anti-American.

But only gut?
No--

To me, what's more emotionally driven are the people who are taking this story and blowing it bigger. And it's like I can't stress how often times it's the Mexicans and Chicanos who raise American Flag-- but it's one instance like this that really shits on things.

And in the end, people perceive me I'm less American all because I celebrate Cinco de Mayo, because I've raised both flags. And still it's heresy.

I've stated my points, and argued for them with conviction. And I argued them with equal amounts of heart and brains. But it wouldn't matter because I'm arguing a side that's all heart: "OMG, he can't wear an American flag on American soil? DEPORT ALL MEXICANS..."

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At 5/8/10 03:01 AM, fli wrote: Well, I do have something invested considering that I'm a Chicano-- and when Cinco de Mayo comes, it's inevitable some guy gonna bitch, "What's happening to my America," when the holiday isn't exclusive but inclusive.

Welcome to the fact that there's still a lot of racist assholes in this country that tend to forget that white people are immigrants here too. Hell even the "natives" were immigrants. Nobody is really from America when you get right down to it.

But you don't like that, go argue with them. Some of us who aren't racists would like to argue the merits of the issue.

Yet, nobody is mentioning about the Chicano soldiers with their floats on the Cinco de Mayo parades through out the country.

You need special attention for this why?

And instead-- they're blowing this one instance (which isn't even the community's fault)-- to make the community as Anti-American.

Or maybe they're looking at it like I am: A gross breach of these kids' freedoms in the name of being "PC" and not offending anybody. That's what pisses me off, if the kids are in no way being disruptive, and the dress code doesn't ban their apparel, why the hell can't they wear it? Why can't they wear it any damn day they want? Why not address that instead of either ignoring it in favor of going "my people are under attack" or switching over to "the principle was wrong" it makes your argument schizophrenic to me.

But only gut?
No--

Yes, that's sure how it's looking to me. You're letting your personal feelings lead you into making some very dumb statements.

To me, what's more emotionally driven are the people who are taking this story and blowing it bigger. And it's like I can't stress how often times it's the Mexicans and Chicanos who raise American Flag-- but it's one instance like this that really shits on things.

Nobody is calling you un-american except the same people who always have: dumbass ignorant racists who look for any excuse to feel like it's "justified" to hate on mexican americans.

And in the end, people perceive me I'm less American all because I celebrate Cinco de Mayo, because I've raised both flags. And still it's heresy.

I don't, again, racism exists, it's always going to, deal with it. I don't think this is an issue where racism is really at work so much as it's an overly cautious principal who made a controversial decision and oh look, controversy sells! Nothing to do with race.

I've stated my points, and argued for them with conviction. And I argued them with equal amounts of heart and brains. But it wouldn't matter because I'm arguing a side that's all heart: "OMG, he can't wear an American flag on American soil? DEPORT ALL MEXICANS..."

So now it's down to where you don't even have to listen to or really argue with anybody who wants to move it away from your soapbox because you've already decided that we'll just paint you with a racist brush? Dude, seriously, fuck you. FUCK. YOU. How dare you paint everybody who might be arguing this particular issue in terms of the side that doesn't agree with you like their all racists. I am in no way a racist and if you paint me with the same brush as some of the guys posting earlier in this thread then frankly, you can directly to hell because you're the kind of guy that willl guarantee those assholes will always be able to complain about mexicans who bitch and pull the race card all the time.

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At 5/8/10 03:22 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: So now it's down to where you don't even have to listen to or really argue with anybody who wants to move it away from your soapbox because you've already decided that we'll just paint you with a racist brush? Dude, seriously, fuck you. FUCK. YOU. How dare you paint everybody who might be arguing this particular issue in terms of the side that doesn't agree with you like their all racists. I am in no way a racist and if you paint me with the same brush as some of the guys posting earlier in this thread then frankly, you can directly to hell because you're the kind of guy that willl guarantee those assholes will always be able to complain about mexicans who bitch and pull the race card all the time.

And you're ignorant to that America has no issues with race.
Because comments from RightWingGamer and Douchebag are just so fucking easy to overlook where they make out this one fucking instance like this essentially makes people think like this, "It's us versus them." Even in the past when immigration or language issues come up.

God forbid that I could talk about complex and compelling issues on sensitive issues like this without tip toeing around your feelings because now I have fear about pulling the race card.

Because of all the years you've known me, I LURRRRVVEEE pulling out the race card. I don't know how an issue like this can't involve any discussion of that one taboo issue.

And yet, despite discussing this topic, never have I called anyone or thought anyone here a racist-- and frankly, I wasn't even thinking about you so why are you making this personal?

Hell, I don't even address people when they say stupid things in the past like, kill all Illegals while they cross here, revoke the citizenship of their children. Hell, I didn't get offended or angry when I got a comment like, " You're hispanic, and you support the suspensions in fear of Hispanics being offended for Americans wearing American flags in....AMERICA?"

All the while ignoring everything what I had written before-- all the nuances that I stated clearly-- and it's boiled down to, "Oh, you support the suspensions," WHEN I DON'T.

It's one thing to get a fucking idiot to not read what I've written and boil down my argument that I'm just irrational, emotionally driven, biased. All the while I've not given my stance whether those students should be punished (but from here on, I'll say, "NO,") but trying to talk about what might have happened. The Mexican and Chicano community support the showing the American Flag, and that's why I question their motivation of how they've used their flag. (God forbid this thing, you might think that I may call you or anyone else racist.) And even when I've accepted that they weren't trying to start anything, I said it's more than likely the principal's PC-ness. So, why are people chastising the community which I belong to when 1.) it's the principal's fault, and 2.) we show EQUAL amounts of American Patriotism?

It's one thing to get like that from an idiot who simplifies it into a racist's issue.
But it's another thing when it comes from you.

Well, fuck you too. But fuck you BECAUSE you think that I've thought that you were a racist, or anyone else for that matter. Fuck you for not reading with an open mind.

But fuck you because you're a racist? meh-- I would have just ignored you. Or I would have tried to go into the issue and just talk about it. (but then, somebody would say I'm pulling the race card, and then I say that I hate you because of it.)

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I first watched the video about it when I watched the video on Ebaumsworld (that and this website are probably the best way for me to get news in the world). As for my thoughts, I think this is a very silly thing to do. Unless it violates the dress code, kids should be allowed to wear whatever they want, especially with how strict some dress codes are.

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At 5/8/10 03:01 AM, fli wrote: Well, I do have something invested considering that I'm a Chicano-- and when Cinco de Mayo comes, it's inevitable some guy gonna bitch, "What's happening to my America," when the holiday isn't exclusive but inclusive.

Has that happened here? Have I said that?
You're going overboard. Way overboard.

Yet, nobody is mentioning about the Chicano soldiers with their floats on the Cinco de Mayo parades through out the country.

The fuck does this have to do with anything?
You know what else nobody is mentioning? The KKK.

And instead-- they're blowing this one instance (which isn't even the community's fault)-- to make the community as Anti-American.

WHO?
You're bitching about an invisible "they" who are going after mexicans.

I know you can't be talking about me, because I'm going after the jackass principal.
And I know you can't be talking about the people in the video, because they're making it an issue of "free speech" vs PC.

So I don't know where this magical group of anti-mexicans came from, and you're not telling me.

But only gut?
No--

Yes.
I don't see a bunch of anti-mexicans. I see a bunch of anti-PC people.
So yeah, I think you're absolutely going by gut reaction, and trying to attack a group THAT ISN'T THERE.

I may be wrong, but I'll tell you one thing for sure:
You're not arguing the ISSUE with me.

To me, what's more emotionally driven are the people who are taking this story and blowing it bigger.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO???
???????????

And it's like I can't stress how often times it's the Mexicans and Chicanos who raise American Flag-- but it's one instance like this that really shits on things.

Damn you fli.

And in the end, people perceive me I'm less American all because I celebrate Cinco de Mayo, because I've raised both flags. And still it's heresy.

I rest my case.
So do I think you're a little invested personally?

Yeah, yeah I think so. When you're making leaps to "people perceive me as less American".

But for the sake of argument:
WHO?

I've stated my points, and argued for them with conviction.

You've stated personal dribble, and argued them with emotion.

And I argued them with equal amounts of heart and brains. But it wouldn't matter because I'm arguing a side that's all heart: "OMG, he can't wear an American flag on American soil? DEPORT ALL MEXICANS..."

You're arguing against a ghost.

At 5/8/10 05:24 AM, fli wrote: And you're ignorant to that America has no issues with race.

Considering Avie's exact words were:
"Welcome to the fact that there's still a lot of racist assholes in this country that tend to forget that white people are immigrants here too."

I think you're WAY outta line, fli.....

I think there are two types of people when it comes to racism. The KKK type people who are overt and active in their racism, and the hyper-sensitive victims who see racism in every issue, even when there isn't inherently an issue of race.

You're acting like the latter, inserting a discussion of racism into a discussion where there was none before. Racism is here because you put it here. Because when I saw this, I saw it as an issue of PC vs free speech, not an issue of "Anti-mexicans who perceive me as anti-american".

Shit fli, use your blog to talk about your personal life, some of us want to debate the issue of moronic PC principals.

At 5/8/10 10:31 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote:
do you have trouble reading?

Apparently, yeah...

and you trying to make it seem like a group of people wearing the same type of clothes (blue jeans) or the same type of brand (North Face) is a scenario identical to a group of people wearing the same graphical theme (the American flag) on multiple articles of clothing is a bit of a stretch.

Yeah, maybe I am.

I saw the one kid dressed like a flag, another wearing blue sweatpants, and a third wearing that gap flag shirt. One of those kids looked like they were just wearing regular khakis.

From my POV, they were dressed like the typical kid. They guy whose shirt was literally one massive flag went a little overboard, but I didn't see it as a conspiracy of "let's all wear flags tomorrow at school and start shit".

Particularly because being the jackass I am, I know how to start shit, and these kids are nOObs if their goal was to pick a fight....

If I wanted to coordinate a political statement, I'm showing up like this and playing "Yankee Doodle Dandy", not wearing an Old Navy white T with a flag design.

You want to make an issue, you go BIG.

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I'm Mexican and I say let them wear the flag, this is anerica

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At 5/8/10 03:31 PM, ChickenReaper wrote: I'm Mexican and I say let them wear the flag, this is America

Thank you! That's what all of them PC'ers should've gotten through their thick heads by now!

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At 5/8/10 03:31 PM, ChickenReaper wrote: anerica

TRAITOR!

SEIZE HIM!

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Both sides are completely retarded. These five kids were obviously just trying to couse trouble; there's nothing wrong with the American flag, but by plastering it all over themselves during cinco de mayo-- the biggest Mexican holiday of the year-- they're just being dicks. Still, why would the school send them home? If the principle had any common sense, he'd know that he'd just provoke national media attention. I hope they all just die, seriously.

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At 5/8/10 05:38 PM, Dubbi wrote: Both sides are completely retarded. These five kids were obviously just trying to couse trouble; there's nothing wrong with the American flag, but by plastering it all over themselves during cinco de mayo-- the biggest Mexican holiday of the year.

Actually, no it's not. It's not even celebrated much in Mexico. only in the state of Puebla. But if you had read through this thread's posts you would've known that.

-- they're just being dicks. Still, why would the school send them home? If the principle had any common sense, he'd know that he'd just provoke national media attention. I hope they all just die, seriously.

So the hell what? They shouldn't even celebrate Cinco de Mayo in America anyways. And wearing the American flag as apparel at an American school isn't being a dick, that's just being patriotic. Sure, we can argue on and on about why they wore it that day, or whether or not they were dicks, but that's not the main point. The point is that political correctness is unnecessary and holds us all back.

And by the way, your desire for them to all die is just plain homicidal. It's a little disturbing.

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At 5/8/10 06:07 PM, jedi-master wrote:

At 5/8/10 05:38 PM, Dubbi wrote: Both sides are completely retarded. These five kids were obviously just trying to couse trouble; there's nothing wrong with the American flag, but by plastering it all over themselves during cinco de mayo-- the biggest Mexican holiday of the year.

Actually, no it's not. It's not even celebrated much in Mexico. only in the state of Puebla. But if you had read through this thread's posts you would've known that.

-- they're just being dicks. Still, why would the school send them home? If the principle had any common sense, he'd know that he'd just provoke national media attention. I hope they all just die, seriously.

So the hell what? They shouldn't even celebrate Cinco de Mayo in America anyways. And wearing the American flag as apparel at an American school isn't being a dick, that's just being patriotic. Sure, we can argue on and on about why they wore it that day, or whether or not they were dicks, but that's not the main point. The point is that political correctness is unnecessary and holds us all back.

And by the way, your desire for them to all die is just plain homicidal. It's a little disturbing.

When did I say wearing shirts referencing the American flag is wrong? In fact, I think it should be encouraged. What I said was wrong was: The kids plastering themselves with the American flag (all over their boy) on cinco de mayo. They could have chosen any day of the year, but instead, they chose May 5th. Even if in Mexico it's not widly celebrated, it's most celebrated Mexican holiday here! American's perceive cinco de mayo to be about Mexico-- the actual importance of the holiday in Mexico is irrevleant-- so their statement was obviously raciest or at least anti Mexican.

I was being sarcastic about when I said they should all die. I'm used to general-- where jokes like that are made all the time.

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At 5/8/10 08:44 PM, Dubbi wrote: When did I say wearing shirts referencing the American flag is wrong? In fact, I think it should be encouraged. What I said was wrong was: The kids plastering themselves with the American flag (all over their boy) on cinco de mayo. They could have chosen any day of the year, but instead, they chose May 5th. Even if in Mexico it's not widly celebrated, it's most celebrated Mexican holiday here! American's perceive cinco de mayo to be about Mexico-- the actual importance of the holiday in Mexico is irrevleant-- so their statement was obviously raciest or at least anti Mexican.

I was being sarcastic about when I said they should all die. I'm used to general-- where jokes like that are made all the time.

How is the statement obviously racist? A large part of the victory of the war was the american blockade of mexican ports, preventing reinforcements from arriving from france. Another large part was that they also supplied mexicans with guns. Being patriotic about that time is hardly racist. America helped Mexico.

A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

According to an interview with their mother, they wear the shirts all the time, to be patriotic, although they did agree to all wear their shirts on that day. Be forewarned, the interviewer is clearly an ideologue.

http://www.lauraingraham.com/

Given that one was mexican, it's fairly clear that there were no racist motives.

Apparantly, the mexicans on many days wore their flags, and rubbed the people's faces in it, and because they were "proud of their heritage" they wanted to wear the flag.

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At 5/8/10 09:18 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 08:44 PM, Dubbi wrote: When did I say wearing shirts referencing the American flag is wrong? In fact, I think it should be encouraged. What I said was wrong was: The kids plastering themselves with the American flag (all over their boy) on cinco de mayo. They could have chosen any day of the year, but instead, they chose May 5th. Even if in Mexico it's not widly celebrated, it's most celebrated Mexican holiday here! American's perceive cinco de mayo to be about Mexico-- the actual importance of the holiday in Mexico is irrevleant-- so their statement was obviously raciest or at least anti Mexican.

I was being sarcastic about when I said they should all die. I'm used to general-- where jokes like that are made all the time.

How is the statement obviously racist? A large part of the victory of the war was the american blockade of mexican ports, preventing reinforcements from arriving from france. Another large part was that they also supplied mexicans with guns. Being patriotic about that time is hardly racist. America helped Mexico.

A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

According to an interview with their mother, they wear the shirts all the time, to be patriotic, although they did agree to all wear their shirts on that day. Be forewarned, the interviewer is clearly an ideologue.

http://www.lauraingraham.com/

Given that one was mexican, it's fairly clear that there were no racist motives.

Apparantly, the mexicans on many days wore their flags, and rubbed the people's faces in it, and because they were "proud of their heritage" they wanted to wear the flag.

If you don't agree with racist, then just acknowledge me saying anti-Mexican. The kids were obviously not plastering themselves with the American flag because of how much the Mexicans of cino de mayo loved America--they were wore the clothes to express an anti-Mexican senitiment. (Ignore this when regarding the Mexican kid who was expelled.) Though, they can technically say that were the clothes to express how Mexicans were appreciative of America's aid, this obviously wasn't the reason. (Again, when regarding the Mexican kid, ignore everything I said.)

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At 5/8/10 09:38 PM, Dubbi wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:18 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 08:44 PM, Dubbi wrote: When did I say wearing shirts referencing the American flag is wrong? In fact, I think it should be encouraged. What I said was wrong was: The kids plastering themselves with the American flag (all over their boy) on cinco de mayo. They could have chosen any day of the year, but instead, they chose May 5th. Even if in Mexico it's not widly celebrated, it's most celebrated Mexican holiday here! American's perceive cinco de mayo to be about Mexico-- the actual importance of the holiday in Mexico is irrevleant-- so their statement was obviously raciest or at least anti Mexican.

I was being sarcastic about when I said they should all die. I'm used to general-- where jokes like that are made all the time.

How is the statement obviously racist? A large part of the victory of the war was the american blockade of mexican ports, preventing reinforcements from arriving from france. Another large part was that they also supplied mexicans with guns. Being patriotic about that time is hardly racist. America helped Mexico.

A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

According to an interview with their mother, they wear the shirts all the time, to be patriotic, although they did agree to all wear their shirts on that day. Be forewarned, the interviewer is clearly an ideologue.

http://www.lauraingraham.com/

Given that one was mexican, it's fairly clear that there were no racist motives.

Apparantly, the mexicans on many days wore their flags, and rubbed the people's faces in it, and because they were "proud of their heritage" they wanted to wear the flag.

If you don't agree with racist, then just acknowledge me saying anti-Mexican. The kids were obviously not plastering themselves with the American flag because of how much the Mexicans of cino de mayo loved America--they were wore the clothes to express an anti-Mexican senitiment. (Ignore this when regarding the Mexican kid who was expelled.) Though, they can technically say that were the clothes to express how Mexicans were appreciative of America's aid, this obviously wasn't the reason. (Again, when regarding the Mexican kid, ignore everything I said.)

The mexican kid was part of their group. Why would he go along with it if he thought it was anti-mexican. They were doing it because they were pro-american. America has nothing to be ashamed about on that day, which is an important point. And they expressed no mexican hate.

"At least two of the four students said they were part Latino themselves. "

http://www.examiner.com/x-27745-SF-Headl ines-Examiner~y2010m5d7-Cinco-de-Mayo-Am erican-flag-shirt-flap-Cops-step-up-patr ols-at-California-school-video

So yes, 50/50 mexican. Unless you're claiming that mexicans are anti-mexican.

Being pro-american, even on a pro mexico day, is not racist or anti-mexican.

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At 5/8/10 09:18 PM, Ytaker wrote:
A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

I ran your little statement through the google translator.

Oh you silly you. :P

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At 5/8/10 09:46 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:38 PM, Dubbi wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:18 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 08:44 PM, Dubbi wrote: When did I say wearing shirts referencing the American flag is wrong? In fact, I think it should be encouraged. What I said was wrong was: The kids plastering themselves with the American flag (all over their boy) on cinco de mayo. They could have chosen any day of the year, but instead, they chose May 5th. Even if in Mexico it's not widly celebrated, it's most celebrated Mexican holiday here! American's perceive cinco de mayo to be about Mexico-- the actual importance of the holiday in Mexico is irrevleant-- so their statement was obviously raciest or at least anti Mexican.

I was being sarcastic about when I said they should all die. I'm used to general-- where jokes like that are made all the time.

How is the statement obviously racist? A large part of the victory of the war was the american blockade of mexican ports, preventing reinforcements from arriving from france. Another large part was that they also supplied mexicans with guns. Being patriotic about that time is hardly racist. America helped Mexico.

A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

According to an interview with their mother, they wear the shirts all the time, to be patriotic, although they did agree to all wear their shirts on that day. Be forewarned, the interviewer is clearly an ideologue.

http://www.lauraingraham.com/

Given that one was mexican, it's fairly clear that there were no racist motives.

Apparantly, the mexicans on many days wore their flags, and rubbed the people's faces in it, and because they were "proud of their heritage" they wanted to wear the flag.

If you don't agree with racist, then just acknowledge me saying anti-Mexican. The kids were obviously not plastering themselves with the American flag because of how much the Mexicans of cino de mayo loved America--they were wore the clothes to express an anti-Mexican senitiment. (Ignore this when regarding the Mexican kid who was expelled.) Though, they can technically say that were the clothes to express how Mexicans were appreciative of America's aid, this obviously wasn't the reason. (Again, when regarding the Mexican kid, ignore everything I said.)

The mexican kid was part of their group. Why would he go along with it if he thought it was anti-mexican. They were doing it because they were pro-american. America has nothing to be ashamed about on that day, which is an important point. And they expressed no mexican hate.

"At least two of the four students said they were part Latino themselves. "

http://www.examiner.com/x-27745-SF-Headl ines-Examiner~y2010m5d7-Cinco-de-Mayo-Am erican-flag-shirt-flap-Cops-step-up-patr ols-at-California-school-video

So yes, 50/50 mexican. Unless you're claiming that mexicans are anti-mexican.

Being pro-american, even on a pro mexico day, is not racist or anti-mexican.

As I previously mentioned, there's nothing wrong with be pro-American or wearing patriotic shirts. But to choose cinco de mayo as the one day they'd plaster themselves with the American flag is anti-Mexican. They don't like Mexico, so on the biggest Mexicaning holiday, (or at least what American's perceive the biggest Mexican holiday to be) they wore plastered themselves with the American flag. How would you feel if a white guy wore all white--shoes, shorts, shirt, bandanna,-- on MLK day. I'll concede that it is possible that they might not be innocent, because half of the accused are of Mexican descent; but, if this wasn't the case, then I'd be quite certain that the kids were anti-Mexican.

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At 5/8/10 10:01 PM, Dubbi wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:46 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:38 PM, Dubbi wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:18 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 08:44 PM, Dubbi wrote: When did I say wearing shirts referencing the American flag is wrong? In fact, I think it should be encouraged. What I said was wrong was: The kids plastering themselves with the American flag (all over their boy) on cinco de mayo. They could have chosen any day of the year, but instead, they chose May 5th. Even if in Mexico it's not widly celebrated, it's most celebrated Mexican holiday here! American's perceive cinco de mayo to be about Mexico-- the actual importance of the holiday in Mexico is irrevleant-- so their statement was obviously raciest or at least anti Mexican.

I was being sarcastic about when I said they should all die. I'm used to general-- where jokes like that are made all the time.

How is the statement obviously racist? A large part of the victory of the war was the american blockade of mexican ports, preventing reinforcements from arriving from france. Another large part was that they also supplied mexicans with guns. Being patriotic about that time is hardly racist. America helped Mexico.

A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

According to an interview with their mother, they wear the shirts all the time, to be patriotic, although they did agree to all wear their shirts on that day. Be forewarned, the interviewer is clearly an ideologue.

http://www.lauraingraham.com/

Given that one was mexican, it's fairly clear that there were no racist motives.

Apparantly, the mexicans on many days wore their flags, and rubbed the people's faces in it, and because they were "proud of their heritage" they wanted to wear the flag.

If you don't agree with racist, then just acknowledge me saying anti-Mexican. The kids were obviously not plastering themselves with the American flag because of how much the Mexicans of cino de mayo loved America--they were wore the clothes to express an anti-Mexican senitiment. (Ignore this when regarding the Mexican kid who was expelled.) Though, they can technically say that were the clothes to express how Mexicans were appreciative of America's aid, this obviously wasn't the reason. (Again, when regarding the Mexican kid, ignore everything I said.)

The mexican kid was part of their group. Why would he go along with it if he thought it was anti-mexican. They were doing it because they were pro-american. America has nothing to be ashamed about on that day, which is an important point. And they expressed no mexican hate.

"At least two of the four students said they were part Latino themselves. "

http://www.examiner.com/x-27745-SF-Headl ines-Examiner~y2010m5d7-Cinco-de-Mayo-Am erican-flag-shirt-flap-Cops-step-up-patr ols-at-California-school-video

So yes, 50/50 mexican. Unless you're claiming that mexicans are anti-mexican.

Being pro-american, even on a pro mexico day, is not racist or anti-mexican.

As I previously mentioned, there's nothing wrong with be pro-American or wearing patriotic shirts. But to choose cinco de mayo as the one day they'd plaster themselves with the American flag is anti-Mexican. They don't like Mexico, so on the biggest Mexicaning holiday, (or at least what American's perceive the biggest Mexican holiday to be) they wore plastered themselves with the American flag. How would you feel if a white guy wore all white--shoes, shorts, shirt, bandanna,-- on MLK day. I'll concede that it is possible that they might not be innocent, because half of the accused are of Mexican descent; but, if this wasn't the case, then I'd be quite certain that the kids were anti-Mexican.

Actually, as I mentioned, one of the kid's moms said in an interview that they loved wearing the shirts, and often wore them.

They are mexican, fifty percent of them, so that's unlikely. They probably like Mexico, just far less than America, which they think is awesome.

Your example is irrelevent. When is it ever good or appropriate to indicate that you love being white? America is supposed to be colour neutral, or anti white and pro black, depending on which political party you come from. It's always appropriate to be patriotic, on the other hand. A better example would be, would it be bad if two white guys and two black guys carried an american flag on mlk day, or wore the red white and blue? I'd say no.

http://www.mlkmc.com/flag.jpg

So would martin luther king.

Your certainty is likely wrong, as they're half mexican in total, so I'd suggest in future cases, you rethink your prejudices.

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At 5/8/10 09:48 PM, jedi-master wrote:

At 5/8/10 09:18 PM, Ytaker wrote:
A racist would wear a french flag, and say "nous pissons sur votre liberté".

I ran your little statement through the google translator.

Oh you silly you. :P

Thought of going for a monte python quote, but that seemed better.

And thank you.

---

At 5/8/10 10:16 PM, Ytaker wrote:

\:

Actually, as I mentioned, one of the kid's moms said in an interview that they loved wearing the shirts, and often wore them.

They are mexican, fifty percent of them, so that's unlikely. They probably like Mexico, just far less than America, which they think is awesome.

Your example is irrelevent. When is it ever good or appropriate to indicate that you love being white? America is supposed to be colour neutral, or anti white and pro black, depending on which political party you come from. It's always appropriate to be patriotic, on the other hand. A better example would be, would it be bad if two white guys and two black guys carried an american flag on mlk day, or wore the red white and blue? I'd say no.

http://www.mlkmc.com/flag.jpg

So would martin luther king.

Your certainty is likely wrong, as they're half mexican in total, so I'd suggest in future cases, you rethink your prejudices.

I said I might be wrong with this case because of the Mexican heritage. But in a case where all the kids are white, I do believe there's a good , albeit not certain, chance of them being anti-Mexican. Red, white and blue stands for America. Cinco de mayo stands for Mexico. Being pro-American isn't bad, but being anti-Mexican is. Plastering yourself with red, white and blue on cinco de mayo could definetly be an insult to Mexcio. There are rednecks who claim to be extremely patriotic, and hate fellow American blacks and Mexicans. It is not unlikely that one of these rednecks plastering himself with red, white and blue on cinco de mayo is anti-Mexican. And I don't see how it's different that a white guy plastering himself with white on MLK day. White nationalism is wrong and, while patrioism should be commended, racist chauvinism is wrong.

---

At 5/8/10 10:34 PM, Dubbi wrote:
I said I might be wrong with this case because of the Mexican heritage. But in a case where all the :kids are white, I do believe there's a good , albeit not certain, chance of them being anti-Mexican.

So, you believe more people are anti-mexican than patriotic? This is why you should re-examine your prejudices. If by merely being born the wrong colour, they're being anti-mexican.

:Red, white and blue stands for America. Cinco de mayo stands for Mexico. Being pro-American isn't bad, but being anti-Mexican is. Plastering yourself with red, white and blue on cinco de mayo could definetly be an insult to Mexcio.

Why? The americans helped Mexico. They have no reason to be less patriotic on that day than any other.

:There are rednecks who claim to be extremely patriotic, and hate fellow American blacks and :Mexicans.

Are you saying, that there's a correlation between flag bearing (patriotism) and hating black people and mexicans? I'm impressed. Just by wearing the symbol of their country, these people hate black people and mexicans, and must be these hypothetical rednecks who hate black people and mexicans.

I know that as a city dweller, it's practically obligatory to hate poor people who live in the south and have to work for a living, but racism is far, far worse in urban centres than in "redneck" culture. In rural areas, they have problems with racial harassment. In urban centres, you have problems with racist murders. Your stereotype against rednecks isn't hugely accurate.

:It is not unlikely that one of these rednecks plastering himself with red, white and blue on cinco de :mayo is anti-Mexican.

Your magical redneck sensor detects a poor white southern farmer? And can tell he's racist too. Impressive.

:And I don't see how it's different that a white guy plastering himself with white on MLK day. White :nationalism is wrong and, while patrioism should be commended, racist chauvinism is wrong.

Firstly, the normal reason to do white pride things is to indicate you're better than black people. The normal reason to wear a flag is to indicate that you love America. One is always legit, the other is never legit. It's a completely irrelevent comparison. The fact that it's a MLK day is irrelevent, as white pride is not good. You can be a white nationalist on any day and people will hate you with a passion.

So, when they do something racially chauvinistic, condemn them.

---

Let's put it this way, how would you feel if someone was wearing a different countries flag on July 4th (Should be 2nd, but whatever)?

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At 5/8/10 11:31 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Let's put it this way, how would you feel if someone was wearing a different countries flag on July 4th (Should be 2nd, but whatever)?

Nice to see the cultural diversity.

---

At 5/8/10 11:17 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 10:34 PM, Dubbi wrote:
I said I might be wrong with this case because of the Mexican heritage. But in a case where all the :kids are white, I do believe there's a good , albeit not certain, chance of them being anti-Mexican.

So, you believe more people are anti-mexican than patriotic? This is why you should re-examine your prejudices. If by merely being born the wrong colour, they're being anti-mexican.

I never said that... I'll be more clear this time.
1. Most Americans are patriotic
2. Very few are anti-Mexican
3. Some, although very, very few, are both
4.. Most patriotic Americans won't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on an abritrary day.
5.. Most patriotic anti-Mexicans won't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on an abritrary day.
6. Most patriotic Americans won't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on cinco de mayo. 8. 7. For them, cinco de mayo is no different than any other day.
8. Most patriotic anti-Mexicans won't plaster themselves with red, white andd blue on cinco de mayo.
9. For them cinco de mayo isn't different any other day. Because in America, cinco e mayo is associated with Mexico.
10. Patriotic anti-Mexicans think that the purity of America would increase if there Mexicans were expelled from the country.
11. Red, white and blue is associated with America.
12. Cinco de mayo is associated with Mexico.
13. The average American would have most likely have not known how America helped Mexico.
14. Plastering yourself with red, white and blue could be a symbol of American racial purity.
15. Therefore, if someone not of Mexican descent, who never wears red, white and blue, plaster themself with it on cinco e mayo, they likely did because they're anti-Mexican

Red, white and blue stands for America. Cinco de mayo stands for Mexico. Being pro-American isn't bad, but being anti-Mexican is. Plastering yourself with red, white and blue on cinco de mayo could definetly be an insult to Mexcio.

Why? The americans helped Mexico. They have no reason to be less patriotic on that day than any other.

But they have no reason to more patriotic! Most American's wouln't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on a abritrary day.

There are rednecks who claim to be extremely patriotic, and hate fellow American blacks and :Mexicans.

Are you saying, that there's a correlation between flag bearing (patriotism) and hating black people and mexicans? I'm impressed. Just by wearing the symbol of their country, these people hate black people and mexicans, and must be these hypothetical rednecks who hate black people and mexicans.

That's not what I said at all. I just said SOME people could claim to be patriotic, but hate hate blacks and Mexicans. I never said al patriotic peopl were...

I know that as a city dweller, it's practically obligatory to hate poor people who live in the south and have to work for a living, but racism is far, far worse in urban centres than in "redneck" culture. In rural areas, they have problems with racial harassment. In urban centres, you have problems with racist murders. Your stereotype against rednecks isn't hugely accurate.

I didn't sterotype anyone. I never said city dwellers are less racist. I just said a racist redneck. I never said all rednecks are racist.

It is not unlikely that one of these rednecks plastering himself with red, white and blue on cinco de :mayo is anti-Mexican.

Your magical redneck sensor detects a poor white southern farmer? And can tell he's racist too. Impressive.

If he dosn't wear red, white and blue on any other day, but chooses to plaster himself with it on cinco de mayo, then he might be anti-Mexican.

And I don't see how it's different that a white guy plastering himself with white on MLK day. White :nationalism is wrong and, while patrioism should be commended, racist chauvinism is wrong.

Firstly, the normal reason to do white pride things is to indicate you're better than black people. The normal reason to wear a flag is to indicate that you love America. One is always legit, the other is never legit. It's a completely irrelevent comparison. The fact that it's a MLK day is irrelevent, as white pride is not good. You can be a white nationalist on any day and people will hate you with a passion.

So, when they do something racially chauvinistic, condemn them.

White pride is not good; people extemely nationalistic people who hate 'impure' races are not good.

---

At 5/8/10 05:24 AM, fli wrote: And you're ignorant to that America has no issues with race.

No I'm not. I admitted there are and will always be racists. So obviously you're just scanning my reply for the part where I told you to go fuck yourself because I believed you were calling me a racist and lumping me in with racists when I sir, am in no way a racist.

Because comments from RightWingGamer and Douchebag are just so fucking easy to overlook where they make out this one fucking instance like this essentially makes people think like this, "It's us versus them." Even in the past when immigration or language issues come up.

I fucking identified them as part of the "racist asshole" group I mentioned. The group you lumped me and every other person who didn't agree with you into. You think I want to be identified with people like that? Hell no! But if you think every white person that disagrees with you is on that same level...guess what that makes you? :)

God forbid that I could talk about complex and compelling issues on sensitive issues like this without tip toeing around your feelings because now I have fear about pulling the race card.

I don't think you were talking about sensitive and complex and compelling issues. You were saying it's all a racist plot against mexicans, with absolutely no real evidence to back that up. I offer a plausible side theory, you ignore that. In fact you ignore me until I get pissed off about the way you were making this a whole "my people are being abused again" rant and I told you to fuck off with that. You made it very clear that if I disagree with you I'm the same type of person as actual honest to God racists and anti-mexican posters from earlier in the thread. You've absolutely turned this wholly and completely into a discussion on race with the "race card" firmly out, and calling everyone who disagrees a racist. That is what YOU sir have done, and now you're pissed because I'm calling you out on your bullshit? Really?

Because of all the years you've known me, I LURRRRVVEEE pulling out the race card. I don't know how an issue like this can't involve any discussion of that one taboo issue.

I think it can, I'm fine discussing that. But I think your assertions that the only reason this is reported is to smear mexicans is paranoid and baseless. It's being reported in some quarters for that I'm sure, but mostly? I think it's being reported because it's CONTROVERSIAL. It's being reported widely because it plays for the left and the right:

For the right: Them dirty mexicans don't want us waving our flag, they hate our country, dey took our jerbs!!!

For the left: Look how these kids' civil rights are violated (pick your side in that, white or mexican, either or it's easy to feel like somebody got screwed here) we should feel outraged! We should get informed! We should pass laws or something!

So now this one article is selling papers to both sides of the american political spectrum and making those that carry it money. Which end of the day is what the game is all about. Plus let's not act like there aren't instances where stories that aren't flattering to certain groups aren't squashed outright and never see the light of day (like Matthew Shepherd got shit tons of attention, and damn right it should have, but so should have the story where 2 gay kids did basically the same thing to a heterosexual boy). In the end, this strikes me as a story that makes good press, not as something out there to destroy your people.

And yet, despite discussing this topic, never have I called anyone or thought anyone here a racist-- and frankly, I wasn't even thinking about you so why are you making this personal?

Because it sounded to me like you were saying anybody arguing against you was wrong based on the fact that obviously they must be racist, that's what the language you chose to use inferred to me, and you absolutely HAVE called people here a racist, you just called RightWingGamer and Douchebag racists in this very post. So now why are you blatantly not telling the truth?

Hell, I don't even address people when they say stupid things in the past like, kill all Illegals while they cross here, revoke the citizenship of their children. Hell, I didn't get offended or angry when I got a comment like, " You're hispanic, and you support the suspensions in fear of Hispanics being offended for Americans wearing American flags in....AMERICA?"

It sure seems this story is offending your sensibilities personally as you immediately launched into a defense of your entire people and have boiled it down to the motives of this must "obviously" be to smear mexicans ignoring what is (to me) the far more likely scenario and not even addressing it whatsoever.

All the while ignoring everything what I had written before-- all the nuances that I stated clearly-- and it's boiled down to, "Oh, you support the suspensions," WHEN I DON'T.

It almost sounded like you did, or that you were at least ignoring them in favor of soapboxing about the plight of your people which, while it's real, it's credible, and I feel for you, IT AIN'T THE TOPIC!!!

---

It's one thing to get a fucking idiot to not read what I've written and boil down my argument that I'm just irrational, emotionally driven, biased. All the while I've not given my stance whether those students should be punished (but from here on, I'll say, "NO,") but trying to talk about what might have happened. The Mexican and Chicano community support the showing the American Flag, and that's why I question their motivation of how they've used their flag. (God forbid this thing, you might think that I may call you or anyone else racist.) And even when I've accepted that they weren't trying to start anything, I said it's more than likely the principal's PC-ness. So, why are people chastising the community which I belong to when 1.) it's the principal's fault, and 2.) we show EQUAL amounts of American Patriotism?

I'm not, some people are, I think you should clearly separate those that are from those that aren't. You didn't make a clear enough distinction on that till now for my liking, and honestly, it seemed to me you were flip flopping between it's the principal overreacting and "it's justified cause obviously these kids were trying to start something" sometimes in the very same paragraphs or sentences, causing me to want clarification. Don't get indignant with me because you're message wasn't clear.

It's one thing to get like that from an idiot who simplifies it into a racist's issue.
But it's another thing when it comes from you.

So now we're going to try and play the appeal to "oh we've posted in the same topics a bunch of times avie, you should be smarter then this" thing? Really. Look dude, just because we happened to have posted in the lounge a bunch of times doesn't really mean we know each other uber well. I'm basing what I'm saying here on my understanding of what I'm reading, and what I was reading for me carried a real bad interpretation. Not to mention as I said, it's pretty disheartening I had to get pissed off and insult you to get you to start addressing ANYTHING I said prior. So let me throw it back to YOU that I would expect better then that from someone who claims to be a "regular" of this board and should be setting a better example.

Well, fuck you too. But fuck you BECAUSE you think that I've thought that you were a racist, or anyone else for that matter. Fuck you for not reading with an open mind.

I did, and that's what I came to, that you were soap boxing and you were unclear. Fuck you too for being a goddamn lier as you rail about how you aren't calling anyone racist or anything when you did call at least two people racist and idiots a whole bunch of times just in this rebuttal. What a joke.

But fuck you because you're a racist? meh-- I would have just ignored you. Or I would have tried to go into the issue and just talk about it. (but then, somebody would say I'm pulling the race card, and then I say that I hate you because of it.)

Excuses excuses. Go into the issue or don't, but don't put it on others and try to play like you're just too intelligent to do it or something. You weren't clear, I took what you as inflammatory and self-serving, so you got what you got.

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At 5/8/10 11:56 PM, Dubbi wrote:

At 5/8/10 11:17 PM, Ytaker wrote:

At 5/8/10 10:34 PM, Dubbi wrote:
I said I might be wrong with this case because of the Mexican heritage. But in a case where all the :kids are white, I do believe there's a good , albeit not certain, chance of them being anti-Mexican.

So, you believe more people are anti-mexican than patriotic? This is why you should re-examine your prejudices. If by merely being born the wrong colour, they're being anti-mexican.

4.. Most patriotic Americans won't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on an abritrary day.

They did. Their mom said so. It was common for them to wear red white and blue.

5.. Most patriotic anti-Mexicans won't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on an abritrary day.
6. Most patriotic Americans won't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on cinco de mayo. 8. 7. For them, cinco de mayo is no different than any other day.

If it's a day no different from any other, why not plaster yourself with the flag? Besides, if there's lots of mexican flags around, they may feel some urge to add some balance. Not out of any anti-mexican sentiment, but because they love america. This is what, reportedly, according to one of their mothers, what happened.

10. Patriotic anti-Mexicans think that the purity of America would increase if there Mexicans were expelled from the country.

Or at least, the illegal ones. Do you have any evidence they have this opinion, or is it just a prejudice? There's some major holes in your venn diagram.

13. The average American would have most likely have not known how America helped Mexico.

There's a good chance in history classes they would have gone over the broad overview. But more importantly- they'd have been given no special reason to not wear the flag.

14. Plastering yourself with red, white and blue could be a symbol of American racial purity.

It's a crap one. The more common one is plastering yourself in white.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/o_impact/2009 /02/KKK%20march%20in%20Ashland%201920s.j pg

One of the major american values is the melting pot ideal. That immigrants of all nationalities are american first. If you see the american flag as a symbol of racial purity, then you have problems with history. The KKK burnt the american flag, to purify it.

15. Therefore, if someone not of Mexican descent, who never wears red, white and blue, plaster themself with it on cinco e mayo, they likely did because they're anti-Mexican

Or the other reason- they just like wearing red white and blue. You're majorly jumping conclusions, likely because you hate southerners. Also, you're wrong, because two of them are mexican. So, clearly, your deeply logical argument, is wrong. In future, when trying to prove racism, just see if they do anything racist.

But they have no reason to more patriotic! Most American's wouln't plaster themselves with red, white and blue on a abritrary day.

Except that they did. According to their mom, that's what they did.

That's not what I said at all. I just said SOME people could claim to be patriotic, but hate hate blacks and Mexicans. I never said al patriotic peopl were...

I've never been quite sure what you were saying. As I understand it- patriotic people who like wearing the flag on a regular basis are uncommon enough that it's more likely that they're racists? And holding a flag is often a symbol of racial purity?

I didn't sterotype anyone. I never said city dwellers are less racist. I just said a racist redneck. I never said all rednecks are racist.

Then you should stop using those sort of terms in a methodical way to prove they're racist. There's clear proof normally when someone is racist. Using the n word, or beating up someone of a different colour, or using slurs and bullying them for their colour.

If he dosn't wear red, white and blue on any other day, but chooses to plaster himself with it on cinco de mayo, then he might be anti-Mexican.

In this case, the mexicans aren't. Besides, even in the worst case scenario, they just believe that America is superior to Mexico, and want to show off. That's not a racist idea. It's the norm for every patriot in the world to believe your country is superior. It's non racial, obviously, since two of them are hispanic, and would be in most cases even if they weren't hispanic.

White pride is not good; people extemely nationalistic people who hate 'impure' races are not good.

You're weakening the case against them. If carrying a flag can get someone called racist, the continuous trend of people seeing the word racist as an excuse for positive racism and anti-american action and not anything to do with actual racism will continue. The more you use a word the less power it has. If someone calls some a spic, say, that's racism.