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Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize

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Drakim
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Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 05:53 AM Reply

It certantly seems like a lot of people say so, perhaps without realizing it themselves. No, I'm not talking about cultural superiority or some shit like that. What I'm talking about is how people respond to the various actions and statements done by non-muslims and muslims. Bear with me and I'll try to explain my reasoning.

For example, when somebody draws a cartoon picture of the prophet Muhammad, the muslim world gets their panties in a twist and issue tons of death treats to the cartoonist, his family, the jews, his company, and his country in general.

The thing is, some of the most eager to criticize the cartoonist are often other westerners who aren't muslims themselves. And it's not just a fridge minority.

What I simply cannot bring myself to understand, is that when there is a conflict, where one person has ridiculed, while the other person has issued death threats, how can anybody in their right mind criticize the ridiculing person first? We are talking about a drawing on a paper ridiculing something versus issuing death treats and carrying out them, resulting in murder. I seriously tried to see both sides in a fair light, but I cannot for the life of me understand the mindset of the person who thinks the drawings are the ones who need the criticism and scorn.

I mean, it's totally okay to oppose such drawings. I'm not saying that everybody should support them or anything. You can be in utter disgust and that's fine. But the thing is, if there are death threats and murders being done, anybody should be sensible enough to understand that you can't focus on the fucking drawing. If one person is insulting you and another person is stabbing you with a knife, you don't start lecturing the insulting person on how rude he is.

So, it struck me that these kind of people simply don't expect anything from the muslims. To them, It's just part of reality that the muslims issue death threats because muslims are lower and less civilized. However, YOU, the cartoonist, should know better because you aren't trash like them. I recent this kind of thinking. Even if the muslims in question have a diffrent culture, it doesn't give them a free pass to do anything. A death threat and a murder is the same no matter who issues it, be it your neighbor, the pope, or some pissed off muslims.

It doesn't matter if the cartoonist started the deal by provoking the muslims. If I call you an asswipe, it doesn't give you justification to threaten and murder me. And I hope everybody has the sanity enough to realize that if this situation did happen, they shouldn't be criticizing me for calling somebody as asswipe while ignoring the obvious breach of law done by the other person. It is in fact illegal in most countries to make death threats and murder. The only reason the muslims in this case haven't been arrested is because they are in a diffrent country, out of reach. But it doesn't change what they have done.

inb4 not all muslims are terrorist


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 06:24 AM Reply

Agreed. However, I don't believe muslims to be less civilized, unless you speak only of the radical ones that issue death threats over stupid shit like their prophet Mohammed being depicted in a drawing,

Fun fact, kids! The supposed prophet Mohammed married and had sex with a 9 year old girl! OLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOL.

I was formerly known as "Jedi-Master."

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Drakim
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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 06:29 AM Reply

Shit, I have no idea why the grammar in the first post is so utterly horrible. My deepest apologies.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 06:32 AM Reply

Cartoons and pride still remains a problem, though. Some say that you can mock everything unless they are confronted with it themselves.

A while ago, during the tsunami incident, a famous Belgian cartoonist caused a whole fuss when he drew a cartoon about 'a German paedophile saves children' and the cartoon was a fat dead guy floating and some starved children using his body as a life boat.

Not that the Germans condemned it, but paedophilia is still kind of taboo in this socxiety.

Or games/pictures that show excessive violence/explicit sex or excessive explicitly violent sex.

All in all, if a comedian were to make fun of your sister who recently died in a car accident, you'd probably want to kick that guy's ass anyway.

(though as a 'revenge' to the Danish cartoon, the AEL ,arabic-european league, published some rather offensive cartoons on their website, among which Hitler was shown having intercourse with Anna Frank. don't know if people got offended)


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Drakim
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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 06:34 AM Reply

At 5/3/10 06:32 AM, RubberTrucky wrote: All in all, if a comedian were to make fun of your sister who recently died in a car accident, you'd probably want to kick that guy's ass anyway.

But if I came to his house, and beat him up until he stopped breathing, I would expect that people would jump on me and criticizes me instead of him. Seeing how he used his freedom of speech while I used violence.

(though as a 'revenge' to the Danish cartoon, the AEL ,arabic-european league, published some rather offensive cartoons on their website, among which Hitler was shown having intercourse with Anna Frank. don't know if people got offended)

I'm pretty sure we didn't have big protest marches where we chanted death to the muslim world.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 06:36 AM Reply

Hm, apparently the cartoon about two jews making up the holocaust did get them a court order to remove the cartoon.

Though not death threats, our society still is sore about issues where censorship trumps freedom of speech.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 10:31 AM Reply

At 5/3/10 05:53 AM, Drakim wrote:

We are talking about a drawing on a paper ridiculing something versus issuing death treats and carrying out them, resulting in murder.
When was the last time of such a murder? Not saying it isn't happening, I'm more just curious since it seems the radical islamists in most of these cases seem to be the more noisy, whining, threatening type than the actually dangerous type.

So, it struck me that these kind of people simply don't expect anything from the muslims. To them, It's just part of reality that the muslims issue death threats because muslims are lower and less civilized. However, YOU, the cartoonist, should know better because you aren't trash like them.

It's a little bit that way, but it's not "the muslims" as a group - it's the radical islamists that do these threats. Those kind of guys won't be talked into that being wrong, because they're irrational fanatics. Now, in many cases I think the cartoonists are that too - Lars Wilks is a prime example (though he's got a fair bit of "egocentric opportunist" along with the irrationality), but in other cases the cartoonists are decent people that you can actually hold an ethical discussion with. I'm not talking about South Park specifically now, because I don't think they did anything unethical, but there ARE a lot of artists that are out to fuck with muslims for the sake of fucking with muslims - whether for the reason of gaining fame or because of ideological motivations.

It doesn't matter if the cartoonist started the deal by provoking the muslims. If I call you an asswipe, it doesn't give you justification to threaten and murder me.

Agreed. However, if you call me and someone else an asswipe and he threatens you - I'll think he's a loony, and I would defend you if he tried, but that won't keep me from still thinking you're stupid for calling me an asswipe.


You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 10:36 AM Reply

At 5/3/10 06:34 AM, Drakim wrote:
(though as a 'revenge' to the Danish cartoon, the AEL ,arabic-european league, published some rather offensive cartoons on their website, among which Hitler was shown having intercourse with Anna Frank. don't know if people got offended)
I'm pretty sure we didn't have big protest marches where we chanted death to the muslim world.

This may partly be due to less exposure, though. Remember that as soon as something that may provoke muslims happen, all media is over it and making it even larger - and a soon as the muslims get pissed off, the media is all over them reporting it as the whole muslim world agreeing with the radicals. Remember Islamic Rage Boy or whatever he's called.
Of course, religious people in genereal and fundamentalists especially are easier to piss off and more likely to openly whine about it, just saying that the way these things are handled, the media act as an amplifyer for things that make people mad at muslims while ignoring things that provoke westerners. All swedes have heard of Lars Wilks, who got threatened for his portrayal of Mohammed as a dog. Very few has heard of Elisabeth Wallin, who got threatened by christians for her portrayal of Jesus in the company of homosexuals.


You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.

Med all respekt för alla rika svin jag känner - ni blir aldrig mina vänner.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 10:42 AM Reply

At 5/3/10 10:31 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: When was the last time of such a murder? Not saying it isn't happening, I'm more just curious since it seems the radical islamists in most of these cases seem to be the more noisy, whining, threatening type than the actually dangerous type.

The most obvious example is Theo Van Gogh, but there are a lot of non-famous people who get murdered by angry Muslim mobs.

So, it struck me that these kind of people simply don't expect anything from the muslims. To them, It's just part of reality that the muslims issue death threats because muslims are lower and less civilized. However, YOU, the cartoonist, should know better because you aren't trash like them.
It's a little bit that way, but it's not "the muslims" as a group - it's the radical islamists that do these threats. Those kind of guys won't be talked into that being wrong, because they're irrational fanatics. Now, in many cases I think the cartoonists are that too - Lars Wilks is a prime example (though he's got a fair bit of "egocentric opportunist" along with the irrationality), but in other cases the cartoonists are decent people that you can actually hold an ethical discussion with. I'm not talking about South Park specifically now, because I don't think they did anything unethical, but there ARE a lot of artists that are out to fuck with muslims for the sake of fucking with muslims - whether for the reason of gaining fame or because of ideological motivations.

Indeed, but just because the fundy Muslims are so unreasonable doesn't mean we should just let them be above criticism. It's simply lame if we criticize artist for being dicks while saying almost nothing over people who are making death treats.


Agreed. However, if you call me and someone else an asswipe and he threatens you - I'll think he's a loony, and I would defend you if he tried, but that won't keep me from still thinking you're stupid for calling me an asswipe.

Agreed.


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Sajberhippien
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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 10:54 AM Reply

Indeed, but just because the fundy Muslims are so unreasonable doesn't mean we should just let them be above criticism. It's simply lame if we criticize artist for being dicks while saying almost nothing over people who are making death treats.

Of course not, but it's kind of like critizicing child rapists and murderers - it's so damn obvious they're doing bad things, you don't really need to point it out. You won't find many people thinking it's even questionable, they're just doing evil things.
There's simply not much to discuss. It's kind of like if a convicted murderer was beaten in his cell by the police - the discussion will be about if what the police did was okay or not, not if the murder was okay or not.


You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 11:48 AM Reply

When a muslim speaks of peace and love, death is sure to follow.


It's not the lack of crimes that values your morality but your capacity for contrition.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 11:58 AM Reply

At 5/3/10 06:36 AM, RubberTrucky wrote: Hm, apparently the cartoon about two jews making up the holocaust did get them a court order to remove the cartoon.

By a Belgian court? Why, or more specifically, under what kind of law? The Dutch pro-Israel lobby group CIDI also filed a lawsuit against the AEL because of the same cartoon, accusing that it was insulting to Jews, but a Dutch court acquitted the AEL because the cartoon was published in the context of making a statement about free speech.

At 5/3/10 10:31 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: When was the last time of such a murder?

The last successful such murder in Europe was in 2004, but the last attempt to kill Kurt Westergaard was about four months ago.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 3rd, 2010 @ 12:20 PM Reply

i think it should be mentioned that numerous examples of depictions of Muhammad that incited threats and protest were neither defamatory (beyond the fact that depicting the Prophet is disallowed in most sects of Islam), nor seem to have been intended as simple-minded attacks on Islam or the Prophet.
an example of that is the drawing of Muhammad with a bomb as a turban; certainly it is somewhat insulting but when we consider the common perceptions of Islam in the Western world it appears to be little more than a reflection of how we perceive the religion. if that is the case would the greater insult come from the depiction or those responsible for spreading terror and violence in the name of Islam that has inspired such images?


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 11th, 2010 @ 04:24 AM Reply

I don't want to say it but that radical behaviour shouldn't be allowed in our country. It doesn't mix with society. This is America and death for drawing a picture of someone, is way too extreme. and we shouldn't be afraid to do something like that. and the radical need to be stoped and moved from this country untill they can have respect for our laws.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 11th, 2010 @ 09:43 AM Reply

What makes it really strange is that the cartoon in question is not even ridiculing the person. The episodes of "South Park" that featured Muhammad did not in any way make fun of him. They just treated him as an ordinary person like anyone else would act. Showing someone at all is not ridicule, it is the same for everyone.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 11th, 2010 @ 02:51 PM Reply

Since there already is a thread about Muhammad cartoons on the first page, I won't start a new one.

But this just happened today. Swedish artist Lars Vilks was attacked during his lecture about free speech in Uppsala University.

A video of the assault can be seen here.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 11th, 2010 @ 08:12 PM Reply

At 5/11/10 02:51 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Swedish artist Lars Vilks was attacked during his lecture about free speech

;;;
What i don't understand is why they aren't charged with a crime ?
Why if they are charged & convicted, they then serve their sentences & then deport them.
Simple.
For those of you who'll come back saying "their Swedish citizens" I say, no problem, strip them of their citizenship & then deport them. Whichever country they, or in the case of children born there of parents who immigrated, ship them back to that country.

I don't say this just to pick on Muslims. I feel exactly the same way about any Christian religious group, or Jewish, or Hindu, Sikhism, Shinto...any religion I don't give a shit which one. Plus if a religious group is a constant problem in your country. Take away their religious status.
Make it mandatory for religions & all the members to be peaceful or your illegal. Take away their tax free status, take away their property, destroy their buildings of worship & ban all & any works or symbols of that religion.
This is a very simple concept. You want to organize & proclaim you love of god, your fellow man etc. then there is no room ,absolutely no room IMO for any religion to have followers who can cause civil disobedience, attack others & just generally be assholes.
I am in no way trying to say a lone individual who acts alone & is religious, should have the entire religious group banned. But it is blatently obvious that some religious practitioners of the Muslim religion as well as a couple of Christian & other religious groups in the US for example who are just bat fucking nuts/crazy !

They use their places of worship to recruit followers to their ideology, they promote hatred & violence as if its the right way to show they're dissatisfied & its time to shut them down.


Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 11th, 2010 @ 10:10 PM Reply

That video link didn't work for me, here's where I saw it on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oLvwMxwH Fs

Watch it and try not to think about a pack of wild animals in the jungle.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 11th, 2010 @ 10:25 PM Reply

I believe that the Cartoonist whom make the cartoon should be able to make his art. However he should also expect a bomb from the sub-human Muslims. Not that all people of religions are bad but we can't tolerate this shit in America. I will die for "America" but the U.S. is beyond redeeming. Let us make a new world with our cartoons!! SOUTH PARK RULES!


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 13th, 2010 @ 02:27 PM Reply

At 5/11/10 10:10 PM, DonnieDonnie wrote: That video link didn't work for me, here's where I saw it on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oLvwMxwH Fs

Watch it and try not to think about a pack of wild animals in the jungle.

Here's a longer version of the incident, with English subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IHnWY-i 6Y

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 13th, 2010 @ 03:01 PM Reply

Fully agree with OP.
Freedom of speech, whether the muslims like it or not.

nuff' said.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 13th, 2010 @ 03:15 PM Reply

I don't think it's right to be completely disrespectful or bait a religion, but I do believe that people should have the freedom to do it.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 13th, 2010 @ 06:08 PM Reply

In my personal opinion, I think it is not to provoke the metaphorical angry bear that is the Muslim world. Not saying that it necessarily taboo to mock Muhammad, but it is not wise to get a bunch of crazies trying to kill you. And despite what some may think, a severe finger wagging will not persuade them into thinking that this is okay.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 13th, 2010 @ 07:18 PM Reply

They only attack the "nail sticking out" so to speak , the masses have nothing to fear from showing mahammed. for example~

Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 14th, 2010 @ 05:57 AM Reply

At 5/13/10 06:08 PM, ImaSmartass2 wrote: In my personal opinion, I think it is not to provoke the metaphorical angry bear that is the Muslim world. Not saying that it necessarily taboo to mock Muhammad, but it is not wise to get a bunch of crazies trying to kill you. And despite what some may think, a severe finger wagging will not persuade them into thinking that this is okay.

No, what we need is relentless mockery and satire of the prophet Muhammad and his faith, so that the Muslims become desensitized to it and just stop giving a shit. Ridicule of Muhammad needs to become just as ubiquitous as ridicule of Jesus is. Then they simply won't have enough time and energy to get angry every time it happens. They won't know where to plant the next bomb, or who to threaten next, because there's just too many to choose from.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 14th, 2010 @ 05:54 PM Reply

Dont forget May 30th is Draw Muhammed Day!

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 14th, 2010 @ 08:27 PM Reply

This reminds me of this journal: http://torture-device.deviantart.com/jou rnal/31327564/ Yes I get that the user is a Nazi but he does bring up a lot of really good points in that journal.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 14th, 2010 @ 09:38 PM Reply

so anyone can make fun of christianity and Judaism and other but when you make fun of Muhhamed OH LORDY!! then there are riots and killings. christ they can't even make fun or have a sense of humor about themselves their nothing but hippocrates. but of course they are stuck in the freaking dark ages and cant get with the modern era.

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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 14th, 2010 @ 11:09 PM Reply

Although I agree there is no problem with drawing muhammad I must complain that why bother?

Hinduism in india, buddhism in china, chirstianity in europe and america. All these countries have a sustainable goverment. Most Muslims live in the Middle east where there has been war and terror so do you really wanna piss them off?

Sure maybe in the future when there a lot less extremists but I dont see why so many people see such a great appeal in insulting a religion. I would criticize the leader of the country but I wont criticize the country its self.

NONE OF THIS WAS EVEN ON THE FUCKING FORUM FOR A WHILE ANYWAY! Its because you little shits probably have watched that south park episode and are just looking for a fight.

No one was complaining when the artist got killed or attacked by those extremists. There just annoyed they cant draw a picture of something that offends people. Well good job for wasting our fucking time. I may have freewill but im not a fucking idiot who has to spend his spare time complaining Why I cant Offend People because thats the impression I get with you.

Sure I know the death threats are extreme but hell, the very reason for this war is because of extremists (taliban) so do you really wanna be picking on a country that is going through war.


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Response to Muhammad Cartoon. Who to criticize May. 15th, 2010 @ 12:03 AM Reply

At 5/14/10 11:09 PM, MrPercie wrote:
NONE OF THIS WAS EVEN ON THE FUCKING FORUM FOR A WHILE ANYWAY! Its because you little shits probably have watched that south park episode and are just looking for a fight.

No one was complaining when the artist got killed or attacked by those extremists.

It's on the forum because people it seems to be happening all the time now and are realizing how retarded it is that there is only one religion that can't be criticized. People were complaining but you just didn't hear it.

:There just annoyed they cant draw a picture of something that offends people. Well good job for wasting our fucking time. I may have freewill but im not a fucking idiot who has to spend his spare time complaining Why I cant Offend People because thats the impression I get with you.

Yes that is correct, people should be able to offend who ever they want but it is only the Muslims who can't be offended.

Sure I know the death threats are extreme but hell, the very reason for this war is because of extremists (taliban) so do you really wanna be picking on a country that is going through war.

What are you talking about?