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Patton3
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Try them as adults? May. 1st, 2010 @ 05:28 PM Reply

Three boys in a county near me murdered the stepfather of the oldest. One is 15, the other two being 12. It has been shown the crime was pre meditated, and two of them have been moved to be tried as adults.
Here's the news story
So, is it just to try a 15 year old and a 12 year old as adults, given the magnitude of the crime?


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JeremieCompNerd
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Response to Try them as adults? May. 1st, 2010 @ 06:52 PM Reply

Premeditation means they knew exactly what was about to happen. If this was a crime of passion, as a developing and hormonal teen I would expect a modicum of leniency. They made this decision, they rationalized it out, they thought about the results, and they deserve to be charged as adults. I would, however, wonder what would drive them to do such a thing. If he was abusive, in any way, I'd consider making it self defense charges as an adult.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 1st, 2010 @ 10:47 PM Reply

At 5/1/10 06:52 PM, JeremieCompNerd wrote: I would, however, wonder what would drive them to do such a thing. If he was abusive, in any way, I'd consider making it self defense charges as an adult.

This was the first thing I wondered when I read the article too. Having poked around the article's links a bit I found another aticle that claims to explaing why:

And now we know why detectives say they committed the crime.

The boys apparently wanted to sell t-shirts to "drug people" in Arizona. And they had originally planned on tying up Lundy's mother, and then killing Danner, according to police. But the mother was in Florida on a previously planned vacation at the time of the murder.

Police say there's no sign of abuse by the stepfather.

"They had all planned on going to Arizona and needed to leave and unfortunately Mr. Danner, they were afraid, was going to contact police about their plan," Sergeant Chad Hill with the Kosciusko County Sheriff's Department. "And that was part of the motive or the plot if there was even a motive or plot was that they were going to have to kill him to keep from being stopped to go to Arizona."

Does this seem really far-fetched to anyone else? Uncle stops boys from going to Arizona to sell t-shirts so the boys kill him? Something about this just dosen't add up.

As for trying them as adults? Yeah, I would say the case merits it... however the maximum sentece of 65 years for some 12 and 15 year olds sems pretty extreme no matter which way you look at it.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 1st, 2010 @ 10:54 PM Reply

they did wrong. they get punished. simple as that.
there only asking for what there getting, as of it seems to me.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 08:44 PM Reply

In Canada they'd get a stern talking to & house arrest for a week, maybe 2 !

Canada's young offender laws actually allow for sentences for murder like 3 years !?!
Sad really.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 09:55 PM Reply

Rethink? I'd say if there were drugs involved, and enough money to have convinced them to commit murder, when it's not illegal to sell t-shirts to anybody regardless of their illegal occupation...
I'd say the shirts had something else in them, possibly caked with coke or maybe even 't-shirt' used as a coverup word for something illegal. They probably weren't selling shirts though, whatever the case. I'd strongly recommend the police try to find their shipment to figure out the real cause here.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 10:13 PM Reply

Totally try their asses as adults.

Our country's youth is going to shit. Discipline is ridiculous. People are failing to see that there are consequences to their actions.

They planned it, they knew what would happen, and if we slap them on the hand and send them off to juvy til their 18, once they get out, they'll do it again.

EclecticEnnui
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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 10:21 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 10:13 PM, SevenSeize wrote: Totally try their asses as adults.

Our country's youth is going to shit.

Source?

They planned it, they knew what would happen, and if we slap them on the hand and send them off to juvy til their 18, once they get out, they'll do it again.

But how do you know they will do it again? Not that I'm against charging them as adults. I just don't know the difference between rehabilitation at juvy and prison.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 10:43 PM Reply

At that age they would have know what they were doing. So they should be judged no different then if they were in their 50s. At the end of the day they killed someone.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 10:51 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 08:44 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Canada's young offender laws actually allow for sentences for murder like 3 years !?!
Sad really.

Good Christ.....

Oh, you killed someone in cold blood? Go to your room Timmy, no supper tonight either!

When the sentence for murder is only slightly more harsh than the punishment for breaking a window because you were playing baseball in the house, you know there's a problem.

"They had all planned on going to Arizona and needed to leave and unfortunately Mr. Danner, they were afraid, was going to contact police about their plan," Sergeant Chad Hill with the Kosciusko County Sheriff's Department. "And that was part of the motive or the plot if there was even a motive or plot was that they were going to have to kill him to keep from being stopped to go to Arizona."

Charge as adults. Life, no parole. Throw away the damned key.
This is calculating and very cold behavior. There's not even a pretense of justification behind the murder.

If they'd let me, I'd line em up in front of a firing squad one day after they were found guilty.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 10:55 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 10:43 PM, Decky1991 wrote: At that age they would have know what they were doing. So they should be judged no different then if they were in their 50s. At the end of the day they killed someone.

You know, your brain doesn't stop maturing until your early twenty's.

Regardless I think a good case could be made either way as to how they should be tried. But if we need prison sentences to keep kids from murdering their parents then were already fucking up really bad somewhere else.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:01 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 10:55 PM, MrHero17 wrote: Regardless I think a good case could be made either way as to how they should be tried. But if we need prison sentences to keep kids from murdering their parents then were already fucking up really bad somewhere else.

I blame the lack of discipline at home and in schools.

Kids in yesteryear were tougher.

Although the economic difficulties of the day seems to be making my generation less candy-assed.....


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:14 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 10:51 PM, Imperator wrote:
At 5/2/10 08:44 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Canada's young offender laws actually allow for sentences for murder like 3 years !?!
Sad really.
Good Christ.....

Oh, you killed someone in cold blood? Go to your room Timmy, no supper tonight either!

When the sentence for murder is only slightly more harsh than the punishment for breaking a window because you were playing baseball in the house, you know there's a problem.

You call three years in juvy slightly better than having to stay in your room without supper for one damn night?

"They had all planned on going to Arizona and needed to leave and unfortunately Mr. Danner, they were afraid, was going to contact police about their plan," Sergeant Chad Hill with the Kosciusko County Sheriff's Department. "And that was part of the motive or the plot if there was even a motive or plot was that they were going to have to kill him to keep from being stopped to go to Arizona."
Charge as adults. Life, no parole. Throw away the damned key.
This is calculating and very cold behavior. There's not even a pretense of justification behind the murder.

If they'd let me, I'd line em up in front of a firing squad one day after they were found guilty.

I'm glad it's not up to you because you have an extreme way of looking at this situation. You think they're gonna be cold blooded monsters for the rest of their lives. Life with no parole or maybe execution belong to someone like Josef Fritzl, not these boys.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:19 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 11:14 PM, EclecticEnnui wrote: You call three years in juvy slightly better

Slightly harsh, rather.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:26 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 11:19 PM, EclecticEnnui wrote:
At 5/2/10 11:14 PM, EclecticEnnui wrote: You call three years in juvy slightly better
Slightly harsh, rather.

Dammit. Slightly more harsh; you get the idea.

I hope you don't use this to attack my argument.
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Response to Try them as adults? May. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:51 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 11:26 PM, EclecticEnnui wrote:
I hope you don't use this to attack my argument.

As you wish.

Talk English hammer! Makes your point look less idiotic when you can express it coherently.....

Enough of that:
I was being overly dramatic. No, I don't actually believe one night without supper is virtually the same as three years in juvenile corrections.

I do believe that three years in juvenile corrections for 1st degree murder is rather problematic.

I'm glad it's not up to you because you have an extreme way of looking at this situation. You think they're gonna be cold blooded monsters for the rest of their lives.

They're 15 and 12. They committed premeditated 1st degree MURDER.
Why? Because he wouldn't let them go to Arizona?

What other possible explanation can you give other than these guys are stone-cold killers? Has anything you've read on the case shown remorse?

Life with no parole or maybe execution belong to someone like Josef Fritzl, not these boys.

These guys stopped being "boys" when they put 4 bullets into their victim. They coldly, rationally, and calculatingly plotted and executed the murder of their victim.

Why did they kill him? Because they didn't want him running to the police. So let's shoot him in the eye, and throw two more in his chest....just in case.

Yeah, definitely not the actions of cold blooded monsters, just another case of "boys being boys"......


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 3rd, 2010 @ 02:28 PM Reply

At 5/2/10 11:51 PM, Imperator wrote: Enough of that:
I was being overly dramatic. No, I don't actually believe one night without supper is virtually the same as three years in juvenile corrections.

I do believe that three years in juvenile corrections for 1st degree murder is rather problematic.

So do I, unless it's 3rd or 4th degree.

I'm glad it's not up to you because you have an extreme way of looking at this situation. You think they're gonna be cold blooded monsters for the rest of their lives.
They're 15 and 12. They committed premeditated 1st degree MURDER.
Why? Because he wouldn't let them go to Arizona?

What other possible explanation can you give other than these guys are stone-cold killers? Has anything you've read on the case shown remorse?

Just because they were "emotionless" doesn't automatically mean they're not experiencing regret or will experience it. Granted, what they did was terrible and they deserve time in prison, but you're acting like they're monsters and always will be. We don't know what their lives were like and what exactly led them to their behaviour. If you go through someone's POV, it's different than just casually observing the crime committed.

Life with no parole or maybe execution belong to someone like Josef Fritzl, not these boys.
These guys stopped being "boys" when they put 4 bullets into their victim. They coldly, rationally, and calculatingly plotted and executed the murder of their victim.

Why did they kill him? Because they didn't want him running to the police. So let's shoot him in the eye, and throw two more in his chest....just in case.

Yeah, definitely not the actions of cold blooded monsters, just another case of "boys being boys"......

I never said this was a case of boys being boys; just that they don't deserve life with no parole for killing one person. If they go to prison, it's not gonna be a family picnic. If they're rehabilitated and are behaving well, then getting parole after, say, 25 years is reasonable. Like I said, just because they killed one person doesn't mean they're automatically gonna do it again.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 3rd, 2010 @ 02:39 PM Reply

In Belgium, this is one of the main problems in the judicial system at the moment. Facilities for youth are being over populated, resulting in young deliquents being let go, regardless of the seriousness of their crimes (even assault where a victim is almost beaten to death can result in the young criminals getting away with a warning)
Trying as an asult is now mostly reserved for those who are on the brink of turning 18, though I guess some get off with a prison sentence of a few months because of their age.

I do believe that rehabilitation should be different for minors than for adults (eg education etcetera) but we should allow strict punishment with prison sentence of a few years to be able for minors also, even though they will turn 18 in prison that way.

Right now we'er sending the signal that crime will remain unpunished and criminals know this very well. So gangs often use minors to commit crimes for them, because they are surely getting away with it.
It's a disaster, really.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 3rd, 2010 @ 03:41 PM Reply

LOL , at so many people saying punishment is the answer to preventing crime.

You can either rule through fear or lead through respect, someone who only dose what you say because they fear you will turn on you the moment they think they can get away with something . While on the other hand someone who deeply respects you will always try to there best for you regardless of whether or not they think they'll be punished.

Of course respect has to be earned and can't be forced unto a people, while punishment and fear can only be subjected onto a people.

As for the boy's they should be put into a mental hospital and studied to see what were the reasons they committed the crimes so further ones can be prevented.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 3rd, 2010 @ 07:33 PM Reply

I tend to agree with the estimation of our youth, at least to some degree. A few months ago, a kid at a local high school brought in a knife, and slashed a classmates throat, and they may try him as an adult. And in a lighter observation of that subject, I can't tell you how sick I am of hyped up drama from my high school. "Oh my god, I can't go to my bf's place the night before finals! My parents are so abusive!", or more recently "Life sucks and I'm sick of all the bullshit." The last person was commenting on how he was grounded from xbox for 10 days after leaving home, and walking 13 miles with no intention of turning back that day, or even over the following several days.
As for the main subject at hand, I have to wonder if there was some other motivation. Someone else mentioned they might be selling drugs, but then we'd have kids who are 15 and 12 committing cold blooded murder in order to sell cocaine, which sounds a bit fanciful.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 3rd, 2010 @ 09:18 PM Reply

At 5/3/10 07:33 PM, Patton3 wrote:
As for the main subject at hand, I have to wonder if there was some other motivation. Someone else mentioned they might be selling drugs, but then we'd have kids who are 15 and 12 committing cold blooded murder in order to sell cocaine, which sounds a bit fanciful.

Actually, check the bit where I asked what the possible reasons for their having done it where. The response I got was they wanted to go to Arizona to sell t-shirts to drug people. That sounds rather fanciful to me, which is why I doubt the validity of the concept. You don't kill over t-shirt profits. You MIGHT kill over drug profits, which are far more money. Besides, who sells t-shirts deliberately to drug people? There's some reason they chose that demographic, and I for one doubt it's because of the leaf logo on the shirt.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 4th, 2010 @ 07:10 AM Reply

DO IT!!!

I bet the big guys in prison could use some tight ass... XD


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 4th, 2010 @ 07:49 AM Reply

At 5/2/10 10:51 PM, Imperator wrote:
At 5/2/10 08:44 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Canada's young offender laws actually allow for sentences for murder like 3 years !?!
Sad really.
Good Christ.....

Oh, you killed someone in cold blood? Go to your room Timmy, no supper tonight either!

When the sentence for murder is only slightly more harsh than the punishment for breaking a window because you were playing baseball in the house, you know there's a problem.

;;;
The Young Offender act is completely out of line with reality IMO.
We have in my area a kid who likes to steal cars, he has multiple stolen car arrests & never spent a day in jail. he was out & on recognisant orders & other absolute bullshit while awaiting trial in 2 other juristictions for car theft. When he steals another car, gets in a high speed chase with police again, kills my co-workers wife, & he does 3 years for all his crimes . 3 years for multiple car thefts, several high speed chases multiple accidents with destroyed vehicles & 1 causing death...& he gets 3 years.
and
When he gets out, he will not have a criminal record, because they don't allow young offenders to carry the "burden" of criminal convictions into adulthood.

THat is IMO seriouly fucked up & is the reason why young people around here (some not all, but enough) do armed robbery, home invasions with sever beatings , & the shootings done by young people has exploded.


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Response to Try them as adults? May. 4th, 2010 @ 08:55 AM Reply

All I have to say is make an example out of them to deter shit head kids from thinking it's not really THAT big a deal to murder someone. Even at that age, pre-meditated murder isn't something a mentally healthy person does. They aren't going to become productive members of society anyways.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 14th, 2010 @ 08:23 PM Reply

Ya know, maybe we need to take example after the Romanian justiace system where there is some actual fear going on. They hardly have an overpopulation in prison issue because there is some actual fear going on- the prison guards will treat you like the peice of shit you are and will not be afraid to beat you to death if you're a murderer or a rapist. If it's not the prison guards beating you, it's the other prisoners and none of the people in power will save you.

While on our side of the world we bend over for the Liberals who had bleeding hearts for sick fucks, and how often do I hear about crimes like this occurring in the US or Canada? Every.Damn.Week. How many in Romania? Last time I heard of anything on the news about them was maybe two years ago.

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 15th, 2010 @ 02:13 AM Reply

At 5/14/10 08:23 PM, Saku-Tatsuya wrote: Ya know, maybe we need to take example after the Romanian justiace system where there is some actual fear going on. They hardly have an overpopulation in prison issue because there is some actual fear going on- the prison guards will treat you like the peice of shit you are and will not be afraid to beat you to death if you're a murderer or a rapist. If it's not the prison guards beating you, it's the other prisoners and none of the people in power will save you.

While on our side of the world we bend over for the Liberals who had bleeding hearts for sick fucks, and how often do I hear about crimes like this occurring in the US or Canada? Every.Damn.Week. How many in Romania? Last time I heard of anything on the news about them was maybe two years ago.

The last you heard. You don't even live in Romania. However, after looking up the crime statistics for all three countries (see below), I realize you have a point, with the exception of murder in Canada. It's lower than Romania. The problem with installing fear and anarchy, though, is that it can lead to corruption. By not charging guards and prisoners with murder or whatnot of other prisoners tells them they can do whatever they want to any prisoner and get away with it. Also, while I'm not condoning murder and rape, killing offenders, even those who committed either once, says they will always be scumbags and will never morally redeem themselves. Nobody can predict the future. Living by this anarchic prison system is not good, in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statis tics#UN_Statistics
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/wo rldreference/RO/crime.html
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/wo rldreference/CA/crime.html
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/wo rldreference/US/crime.html

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Response to Try them as adults? May. 16th, 2010 @ 10:10 AM Reply

At 5/2/10 08:44 PM, morefngdbs wrote: In Canada they'd get a stern talking to & house arrest for a week, maybe 2 !

Canada's young offender laws actually allow for sentences for murder like 3 years !?!
Sad really.

Sure you could get only 3 years, but the maximum sentence for first degree murder by a young offender is ten years. And if you're over 16, on first degree murder charges, there's a real good chance you will get thrown in adult court.

Melissa Todorovic at the age of 17 got life in prison and no parole for 7 years just for telling her then boyfriend to kill another girl. The boyfriend got life and no parole for 10 years.

I can see the 15 year old getting charged in adult court, but I don't think the 12 year olds will get that same treatment.


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