Arizona and immigration reform.

[Light]

Since Arizona went on the offensive and recently had its governor sign into law the new immigration bill, President Obama and other protesters have shown their opposition to it, saying it's unconstitutional, and would give rise to racial profiling. Arizona's governor says she won't allow such profiling to occur as this law goes into effect.

The explanation from the linked news source:

The legislation, sent to the Republican governor by the GOP-led Legislature, makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants; allows lawsuits against government agencies that hinder enforcement of immigration laws; and makes it illegal to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them.

So guys, do you think this would ever hold up in Court if it had to? You guys agree with this at all? I personally think this is good, as Arizona has been dealing with Mexican drug cartels and skirmishes along the southern border. Even if it's found to be unconstitutional, this could spread on to to the other states in my opinion, and I believe this law will be successful one way or another. I could be wrong though.

If there's a topic about this already, then I won't mind if you mods lock this.

[fli]

I don't think it will hold up in the courts...
though these things are supposed to help out, they also racially profile people-- and although people say there are specific guidelines like these-- they will be abused nonetheless.

This is similar to the massive forced deportation of Mexican (and Americans-- who just happened to be in the wrong place and time) during the Roosevelt administration. (My adoptive grandmother, American born, was deported because she looked brown and spoke Spanish as a girl.)

[Proteas]

Wait... they made it illegal to be an illegal immigrant in this country?

They illegalized illegal immigrants?

BLAGH!!!

[TG99]

I hope it doesn't hold up in court. This basically gives cops the job of being immigration officers. So if they suspect anyone of being an illegal immigrant, they can detain them. Meaning of course, Hispanics, Africans, anyone from the middle east, and suspiciously tanned white people. Racial profiling ftw.

[peanutfoot932]

We already have countless protections against illegal immigration. Additional laws just give the government undue power, especially in this case. I mean, seriously, how would this not lead to racial profiling? Police are required to question people they think might be illegal immigrants.

Drug cartels should be dealt with as their own issue; the majority of illegal immigrants are decent, hard-working people who just want good job opportunities, not violent drug smugglers.

It did get Obama seriously addressing the issue, though, which is good.

[Memorize]

At 4/26/10 06:07 PM, peanutfoot932 wrote: We already have countless protections against illegal immigration.

Welfare, social security cards, government grants...

Yeah, those protections are doing wonders.

[Patton3]

Given there are about 430,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona, you would think they would have a much better (and cheaper) time by granting amnesty with certain qualifications. Perhaps something to the tune of; all those with children are given citizenship, or once granted citizenship, you must actively seek out employment (if you aren't already employed).
There by allowing them to become more contributing members of the US, without the miles of legal red tape involved with deportation in such scale, and without the inevitable condoning of racial profiling we're going to see under this bill.

[adrshepard]

At 4/26/10 06:25 PM, Patton3 wrote: Given there are about 430,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona, you would think they would have a much better (and cheaper) time by granting amnesty with certain qualifications. Perhaps something to the tune of; all those with children are given citizenship, or once granted citizenship, you must actively seek out employment (if you aren't already employed).

Jesus Christ, what is it that you amnesty advocates do not understand (cue ragecaps)? POOR, UNEDUCATED PEOPLE DO NOT ADVANCE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH OF THIS COUNTRY. THEY ARE A BURDEN.

It's as though you think the US is stuck in the midst of the Industrial Revolution, that all we need are bodies, and lots of them. That only worked because of two things: an almost complete lack of labor/safety regulations that made it very cheap to employ people, and the dearth of public services and entitlements.
Does that remind you of anywhere? China, maybe? Where workplace fatalities reach unimaginable levels by our standards, public health is a joke outside of the developed urban areas, and pollution is probably at the worst level in the world? Yet for all this they have stellar economic growth.

But that's beside the point. The fact of the matter is that absolutely no one benefits from amnesty or illegal immigration (unless you can call working and living on peanuts a benefit). There are simply too many government services that depend on the middle classes and above to support, yet everyone is entitled to them, directly or indirectly. The only result is to bring down the standard of living for normal citizens for the sake of people whose very presence in our nation is a crime.

If the plight of the suffering, hard-working, proud illegal aliens tugs at your heartstrings too much, the first thing you should do is move to the border states (or better yet, Mexico), and donate all of your money and assets to charity, living the life of a beggar. Then, and only then, should you dare to suggest that its the moral responsibility of everyone else to make any kind of sacrifice.

[Light]

I agree with 85% of the guy's post above of this one.

Seriously, I do.

[thedo12]

At 4/26/10 09:28 PM, adrshepard wrote: POOR, UNEDUCATED PEOPLE DO NOT ADVANCE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH OF THIS COUNTRY. THEY ARE A BURDEN.

translation: I'd rather have a few extra bucks in my pocket then give below-poverty immigrants a chance at a good life.

It's this kind of conservative hypocrisy that really turns me off from your whole dogma. You whine and complain about welfare /social programs and people who abuse them but the moment someone wants to work at a shitty job for minimum wage you immediately turn against them .

/RANT

[Dawnslayer]

Here's a thought: there's a saying that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." What could we do to encourage illegals to stay in Mexico, that we are able to do and not already doing? (Implied question: are we doing anything, and if so, what?) If we solve the problem of why they're coming here illegally in the first place, we solve the problem, period.

[TG99]

At 4/26/10 09:55 PM, thedo12 wrote: It's this kind of conservative hypocrisy that really turns me off from your whole dogma. You whine and complain about welfare /social programs and people who abuse them but the moment someone wants to work at a shitty job for minimum wage you immediately turn against them .

I agree with you sir.

[peanutfoot932]

At 4/26/10 09:28 PM, adrshepard wrote: Jesus Christ, what is it that you amnesty advocates do not understand (cue ragecaps)? POOR, UNEDUCATED PEOPLE DO NOT ADVANCE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH OF THIS COUNTRY. THEY ARE A BURDEN.

Okay, that's enough of that. Seriously, you "competition is great except when it's with those damn foreigners" people are really starting to irritate me.

Just for clarification, I agree that we need to curb illegal immigration, but passing laws that promote statewide racial profiling isn't the best way to go about it.

[riemannSum]

At 4/26/10 09:55 PM, thedo12 wrote:
translation: I'd rather have a few extra bucks in my pocket then give below-poverty immigrants a chance at a good life.

Chance at a good life? Come in legally, go through the system, do it right.

Let's be honest here, all the illegal immigrants from Mexico do is come over here, work for cash (don't pay taxes), breed, and send money back to Mexico.

Oh yes, along with drive crime rates up.

"
In the population study of a sample of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.

About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes."

From: http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/kour i/060622

It's this kind of conservative hypocrisy that really turns me off from your whole dogma. You whine and complain about welfare /social programs and people who abuse them but the moment someone wants to work at a shitty job for minimum wage you immediately turn against them .

/RANT

I fail to see the connection between complaining about money handouts and complaining about people who work at minimum wage jobs who are illegally here.

To be frank you sound a little bit like you might be up on a high horse. It's this kind of liberal garbage that keeps problems festering and bogging down an economy and healthcare system.

[poxpower]

If you don't think this is stupid then you'd also be alright with cops randomly stopping people on motorcycles and in sports cars to check if they have a license.

I mean, it's not legal to drive without a license, so we should make sure everyone on the road has one!

Brilliant.

[riemannSum]

At 4/27/10 12:34 AM, poxpower wrote: If you don't think this is stupid then you'd also be alright with cops randomly stopping people on motorcycles and in sports cars to check if they have a license.

I mean, it's not legal to drive without a license, so we should make sure everyone on the road has one!

Brilliant.

So... What if (and this is just a question) you were a cop and you saw an eight year old driving on the highway. Would you pull him over to check his license?

[peanutfoot932]

At 4/27/10 12:39 AM, riemannSum wrote: So... What if (and this is just a question) you were a cop and you saw an eight year old driving on the highway. Would you pull him over to check his license?

Oh, for the love of... A MEXICAN LIVING IN AMERICA IS NOT LIKE AN EIGHT YEAR OLD DRIVING.

[thedo12]

At 4/27/10 12:28 AM, riemannSum wrote:
Chance at a good life? Come in legally, go through the system, do it right.

Legal immigration costs money and time, something a lot of potential immigrants don't have.

Let's be honest here, all the illegal immigrants from Mexico do is come over here, work for cash (don't pay taxes), breed, and send money back to Mexico.

Most of them probaly wouldn't qualify to pay for taxes in the first place, making minimum wage or less doesn't get you much. Also while true they send money back to mexico , they are also making other people rich who spend there money here, and of course they at least have to buy essentials .

And of course it makes it so less illegal immigrants don't have to come to the u.s. since there getting good money from people send money back.

About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses.

Which I don't think should be illegal in the first place.

I fail to see the connection between complaining about money handouts and complaining about people who work at minimum wage jobs who are illegally here.

People who get money handouts generaly do it because they don't want to work shitty jobs, illegal immigrants work shitty jobs all the time .

And they refuse to pay taxes as well, they should be a tea partiers delight.

To be frank you sound a little bit like you might be up on a high horse. It's this kind of liberal garbage that keeps problems festering and bogging down an economy and healthcare system.

Yep because I don't want to just ignore the problem, I'm bogging down the system .

Even if you want to take a hard stance against illegal immigration , your still not solving the problem . As long as america is better place to live immigrants will come here legally or illegally , so what you need to do is make mexico a better place to live, and magicaly less and less illegal immigrants will come here .

Yeah it will take alot of money and resources , but ultimately it's for the benefit of both party's involved.

[TG99]

At 4/27/10 12:39 AM, riemannSum wrote: So... What if (and this is just a question) you were a cop and you saw an eight year old driving on the highway. Would you pull him over to check his license?

Smh.

[riemannSum]

At 4/27/10 12:41 AM, peanutfoot932 wrote:
Oh, for the love of... A MEXICAN LIVING IN AMERICA IS NOT LIKE AN EIGHT YEAR OLD DRIVING.

Why not?

At 4/27/10 12:59 AM, thedo12 wrote:
Legal immigration costs money and time, something a lot of potential immigrants don't have.

Actually most of them have time and it really doesn't cost much money. Provide figures please?

Most of them probaly wouldn't qualify to pay for taxes in the first place, making minimum wage or less doesn't get you much. Also while true they send money back to mexico , they are also making other people rich who spend there money here, and of course they at least have to buy essentials .

Who are they making rich? Business owners? That wouldn't matter since any workers would have done the same thing, not just illegals. And while yes, maybe federal/state tax they might not qualify to pay for, they are not contributing to social security. Also, since they send a large chuck of their disposable income to Mexico they contribute even LESS to sales tax.

And of course it makes it so less illegal immigrants don't have to come to the u.s. since there getting good money from people send money back.

So you're against illegals coming to the U.S.? Either way this would encourage more to come to make the same money.

Which I don't think should be illegal in the first place.

Unfortunately your opinion doesn't matter on that fact.

People who get money handouts generaly do it because they don't want to work shitty jobs, illegal immigrants work shitty jobs all the time .

And they refuse to pay taxes as well, they should be a tea partiers delight.

Good thing I dislike the tea party.

Yep because I don't want to just ignore the problem, I'm bogging down the system .

Ignore the problem or provide a flawed solution?

Even if you want to take a hard stance against illegal immigration , your still not solving the problem . As long as america is better place to live immigrants will come here legally or illegally , so what you need to do is make mexico a better place to live, and magicaly less and less illegal immigrants will come here .

Yes! Let's do it so that Mexico becomes a BETTER place to live than the U.S.! Oh, oh, we can spend even MORE money than we waste on illegals to develop Mexico's infrastructure, we can even send our military to solve their horrible government and drug cartel problem!

God, that is completely stupid.

Yeah it will take alot of money and resources , but ultimately it's for the benefit of both party's involved.

No. It's not.

[Memorize]

At 4/26/10 09:55 PM, thedo12 wrote:

translation: I'd rather have a few extra bucks in my pocket then give below-poverty immigrants a chance at a good life.

It's this kind of conservative hypocrisy that really turns me off from your whole dogma. You whine and complain about welfare /social programs and people who abuse them but the moment someone wants to work at a shitty job for minimum wage you immediately turn against them .

It's better than the liberals using Government programs to steal money from people who do work in order to pay off illegals who don't.

But why don't you ask those liberals why it's "ok" to still have military troops in South Korea, Germany, Britain, and Japan, but it's not "ok" to use the national guard to secure the State's own border?

"We need troops in South Korea to protect their border from North Korea! Oh what's that? Using US troops to secure the US' own border? What are you? INSANE!?"

[Gorgonof]

At 4/27/10 01:19 PM, Memorize wrote: But why don't you ask those liberals why it's "ok" to still have military troops in South Korea, Germany, Britain, and Japan, but it's not "ok" to use the national guard to secure the State's own border?

Yuppers, all them liberals are outspoken about how we should have a military presence in the world.

"We need troops in South Korea to protect their border from North Korea! Oh what's that? Using US troops to secure the US' own border? What are you? INSANE!?"

Oh, I don't know, maybe North Korea is an aggressive nation and a military threat, which Mexico isn't. Maybe we should come up with more intelligent solutions than throwing a bunch of heavily armed personal on our borders.

At 4/27/10 11:56 AM, riemannSum wrote: Yes! Let's do it so that Mexico becomes a BETTER place to live than the U.S.! Oh, oh, we can spend even MORE money than we waste on illegals to develop Mexico's infrastructure, we can even send our military to solve their horrible government and drug cartel problem!

Ugh, way to go captain strawman attack.

Also immigration and drugs are two different issues, the only way to stop drug cartels is to legalize the drugs they produce.

[poxpower]

At 4/27/10 11:56 AM, riemannSum wrote:

At 4/27/10 12:41 AM, peanutfoot932 wrote:
Oh, for the love of... A MEXICAN LIVING IN AMERICA IS NOT LIKE AN EIGHT YEAR OLD DRIVING.

Why not?

Cause millions of Americans are hispanics?

What if they stopped only young people? From now on, cops stop everyone who looks sort of under 30 and searches them for drugs! Let's say that 95% of drugs were found on people under 30. Wow, that's brilliant, right?

Or how about they stop every car with a driver who looks like maybe he could possibly be under the driving age and arrest them.

Or maybe they could stop at random homes and check your computer for child porn or illegally downloaded content! How would you like that? Maybe they can only target homes with kids! It's illegal to have that stuff you know, so just don't have it on your comp and you're fine, you have nothing to fear!

Starting to see the problem here?

[riemannSum]

At 4/27/10 01:50 PM, Gorgonof wrote:

At 4/27/10 11:56 AM, riemannSum wrote: Yes! Let's do it so that Mexico becomes a BETTER place to live than the U.S.! Oh, oh, we can spend even MORE money than we waste on illegals to develop Mexico's infrastructure, we can even send our military to solve their horrible government and drug cartel problem!

Ugh, way to go captain strawman attack.

Also immigration and drugs are two different issues, the only way to stop drug cartels is to legalize the drugs they produce.

Ok, so to make this clear, I'm going to quote: "so what you need to do is make mexico a better place to live, and magicaly less and less illegal immigrants will come here ."

So make Mexico a better place to live... So that the immigrants will want to live there and not here. Well for that to be true Mexico would have to be a better alternative than the U.S.

So, as the quote says we would have to make Mexico the better place - not the Mexicans - us. The ones with the problem.

What I said was that this would cost MORE money, making the burden caused by illegals much greater, and thereby making no sense to do whatsoever.

Couldn't figure that out Captain Ad Hominem?

Yes they're two different issues. Yet magically they seem to be correlated! What was totally weird about what I said is how I didn't include them as the same issue but -- wait instead of just explaining it I'll break it down for you so you don't say something equally as stupid as the last thing you said.

Oh, oh, we can spend even MORE money than we waste on illegals to develop Mexico's infrastructure, we can even send our military to solve their horrible government and drug cartel problem!

We have part A of the sentence - About spending more money to develop Mexico's infrastructure

Then, part B (AFTER the comma!) - Where I state that we can "EVEN" send our military to solve their problems.

See what I did there? I stated something stupid and ridiculous which was on topic of the argument, then I said something even STUPIDER and MORE RIDICULOUS to make the first part look even stupider.

Let me know your questions.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 4/26/10 06:22 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 4/26/10 06:07 PM, peanutfoot932 wrote: We already have countless protections against illegal immigration.

Welfare, social security cards, government grants...

Yeah, those protections are doing wonders.

The idea that illegal Immigrants make use of Welfare is largely a myth, Social security and government Grants I am not so sure of. They do tend to forge personal information that their employers the used to pay the payroll Taxes. I've heard Illegal immigrants pay more in taxes then in benefits, which doesn't surprise me.

[riemannSum]

At 4/27/10 03:38 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:
The idea that illegal Immigrants make use of Welfare is largely a myth, Social security and government Grants I am not so sure of. They do tend to forge personal information that their employers the used to pay the payroll Taxes. I've heard Illegal immigrants pay more in taxes then in benefits, which doesn't surprise me.

Not trying to be a dick but can you provide some links/facts on this? I don't know much about illegal immigrants and welfare so I'd like to see what you backed up your argument with.

[animehater]

I'm taking a more hands off approach in this. Mainly because I'm not from Arizona.

[Patton3]

At 4/26/10 09:28 PM, adrshepard wrote:

Since answers to the above would essentially be a repeat of what you've already received, I'll just head straight to the bit below.

If the plight of the suffering, hard-working, proud illegal aliens tugs at your heartstrings too much, the first thing you should do is move to the border states (or better yet, Mexico), and donate all of your money and assets to charity, living the life of a beggar. Then, and only then, should you dare to suggest that its the moral responsibility of everyone else to make any kind of sacrifice.

1. That assumes that granting amnesty would ultimately lead to all Americans living the life of beggars.
2. Secondly, it assumes that in order to show care/support for people you have to devote yourself to them without the slightest restraint. For example...
If I claim all persons in this country should respect the sacrifices made by our troops, is my point moot because I'm not a member of the military? Is it moot because I don't give every last, single dime of my money to the USO?

As well, understand that monetary issues to many people are not the only angle from which we should look at things. Looking at the world from a purely monetary perspective is often cold and harsh, forgetting that the things you're putting dollar signs on are human beings. I don't think I'm out of line in saying that there are some choices people face that aren't the best for their monetary standing, yet that doesn't mean those actions shouldn't be taken solely because of that.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 4/27/10 04:03 PM, riemannSum wrote:

At 4/27/10 03:38 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

Not trying to be a dick but can you provide some links/facts on this? I don't know much about illegal immigrants and welfare so I'd like to see what you backed up your argument with.

Absolutely.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_
id=6161

Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security Income. But because immigrants tend to comejavascript:ResetForm(document.forms[
'mainform'].elements['body'],%208192); to the United States during the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 -- they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

That being said, that someone would come to this country simply to abuse the welfare system is, number one, unlikely given that the American Welfare system is probably not as generous as it is in other countries. And also, I'm not endorsing open borders because it will increase tax revenue for the Government.

Regardless, the fact that illegal immigrants abuse the Welfare system is a problem with the welfare system, not with immigration. The Welfare system is itself abused by people within the united states who are natural citizens, but we don't use this logic to say that those individuals ought be deported. :D

[Memorize]

At 4/27/10 01:50 PM, Gorgonof wrote:

Yuppers, all them liberals are outspoken about how we should have a military presence in the world.

Right, because our troops weren't put in Korea by a liberal, or in Britain by a liberal, or in Germany by a liberal.

Bush went into Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, but do you see Obama withdrawing any troops from around the world?

Do you see him stopping bombings inside Pakistan?

Do you see him withdrawing from Afghanistan, Japan, Korea, or Germany?

No? What a surprise!

Oh, I don't know, maybe North Korea is an aggressive nation and a military threat, which Mexico isn't. Maybe we should come up with more intelligent solutions than throwing a bunch of heavily armed personal on our borders.

How the fuck can North Korea be a threat to a bordering country that has 20x their GDP?

Also immigration and drugs are two different issues, the only way to stop drug cartels is to legalize the drugs they produce.

Which only exists because of the Federal Government.

Hence: Creating the problem Arizona faces.

Hence: Why Arizona got desperate in passing this worthless legislation.

At 4/27/10 03:38 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

The idea that illegal Immigrants make use of Welfare is largely a myth, Social security and government Grants I am not so sure of. They do tend to forge personal information that their employers the used to pay the payroll Taxes. I've heard Illegal immigrants pay more in taxes then in benefits, which doesn't surprise me.

I'm not saying that large amounts of illegals do it.

I'm saying that talking tough on illegal immigration only to not secure the border while promising free stuff when they get across (if they last long enough not to get caught), isn't going to help. It only encourages it.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again: Immigration isn't the problem... the Government is.