Using sex in writing.

[TrevorW]

I know we were having a discussion in the lounge about this, and I saw someone suggest a topic. Here is the topic.

I personally feel that a sex scene can either be informatively deep and progressive or not, it doesn't matter so long as the right approach is taken for that story. After all sex is a major part of life and we wouldn't be doing life justice if we ignored it. However, I also do not feel a liking towards the over explicit smut...in a creative sense. In fact I would suggest that the sex scene never be pointless; but if not deep, at least purposeful.

A sex scene can be used to advance so much of the story (someone said this in the lounge) such as the characters and their feelings. For instance in the little story I am going to post below I talk about the greed and lust v love the character feels during sex. I talk of the primal nature and the struggle of human nature. For me I feel that I set the character up in such a way that I could continue the story at any time, which I feel is important in some cases. Opening a book with a sex scene not only makes a book marketable, it makes the book more passionate in some cases if you ask me. There is a strength behind the act.

Though I would shy away from using sex as a common practice and I would flower up the language...let's keep it clean, eh? Lol. Many people simply find the terms: "hard fuck," "plowed her pussy so hard," ect as idiotic male talk. We really are idiots, but hey got to love us.

Well I lost my train of thought so I am just going to post my story. Feel free to read it and comment or just talk about the subject some more. And there was my two cents.

***

As I steadily press against her tender form I can feel her insides light up with euphoria - she's hitting ecstasy. Her usually narrow eyes widen as I stab into her faster and harder than before; I want her orgasm to be explosive, to say the least. Quicker, harder, faster: I remind ever inch of her whom who its lover is. However, as she clasps her delicate, yet entranced fingers, around me - with a fury only a woman can have - I realize she has no intention of letting me pull out. Her whom is mine, her virginity is mine, and her heart too.

Her legs pull me inwards with my last thrust into her warm whom, it's so warm. My body flinches backwards but her legs hold me so close that we lie there cemented together in one warm, giddy, ball of energy. Mine flowed into hers just then - my unborn children are flowing into the tender flower that is her body, impregnating her - she's mine. But wait, I'm forgetting her.

Her entire body is ablaze with what I can only guess is passion - maybe love. Every inch of her body is blushing and I can't get enough of it. I want her to scream. I want her to scream for me. I can't help it, I know she is already going crazy, but I can't help it. I quickly move my fingers down to her sweet lotus and embrace it with them. Quickly I mash them together and apart, her body shrills as I do this. I want more - so much more.

I bring myself to another erection and I slide it into her dripping lotus, she screams. I want more, so much more. This time it won't be passionate, she will orgasm. With every ounce of my energy I begin to slide in and out of her with increasing haste, her back arches. I need more.

I look directly into her eyes and stare into them, my face is painted with lust - she begins to cry. My thrusts are becoming so fast I can hardly keep up with my body, it's moving on its own. All I can focus on are her eyes; they're scared but excited at the same time - what a masochist. I want to crawl inside of her; I want to share the same soul as her.

Why can't I be one with her? There is no reason for her not to let me share in her body and soul: let me in. Let me all the way in.

Her face is so flush and her cheeks so covered in tears that I can hardly make her out anymore. Her entire body is tense and ready to explode: her hands are entangled into the sheets; her back is arched so high that every muscle in her body is flexed; and her lotus is so wet that my effort is almost nothing. But wait, what is this in her eyes?

A sudden flash is coming about her eyes, they're burning. She moans - yes, moan and remain mine. Her entire body tightens - I feel crushed inside of her, its wonderful - and then a rush comes about me. Her body lets go and falls to the bed and I fall out of her; she's smiling, in a sort of half transcended way. She did it, she orgasmed - I didn't expect that...

I want more.

[MrDaemon]

I believe some written sexual stories (erotica) can be and is considered an artform.

While, I do not personally indulge in many tales, it is still a respectable form of literature in my book.

[munio]

should we bother to define a border between sex used in a litterary way and sex of the "fap fap fap" kind?

[tigerkitty]

At 2/23/10 07:30 AM, TrevorW wrote: whom

...it's womb...

At 2/23/10 09:02 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: It depends on whether you want to write porn or not and the way you go about writing it.

Is porn art? In the written form is it literature?

Well, if you're going to use that analogy you also have to address the questions of what constitutes pornography. Does someone being naked in a photo or sculpture constitute equal pornography or must they be engaging in a sexual act, is it just sex that makes it porn? If that's the case then is Michelangelo's Leda and the Swan porn? or even something of that ilk? Be careful when you take on trying to classify what does or does bear consideration, it easily snowballs. Everything does deserve regard, even if it's not considered the perfect or prime example of a category.

I think what people need to keep in mind is that sex in stories will change the audience base. Not everyone is going to pick up a book they know has sex scenes in it.

I don't really think having sex or not having sex will make or break your story (unless, of course, it's erotica which I'm not referring to here) since a story should, realistically, be able to stand without having to titillate the reader.

Good post Trevor. I thought I'd throw some of my thoughts in while the oppurtunity was here.

Like you say, sex is a very wide subject, a biologically natural fact. It can operate in so many ways. You gave the example of it moving the plot and building character in the process, which is definitely one way of using it. Taking 'sex scene' to mean any scene that involves the act of making love in some way, this is used in a variety of novels, from Haruki Murakami's Norwegian Wood to Ernest Hemingway's A Farewell To Arms, and in film narratives seen in the likes of Bond films, right through to the Coen brothers' blackly comical Fargo. If you actively take note of how often a piece of art uses sex or sexual imagery, you might actually be surprised - it's by no means a rare device, nor is it a particularly new one. Don't let those thought deter you from using sex in these ways if you believe that it works, but watch out for exploitation if you're trying to take it to another level. One of the most recent (mainstream) films to be banned in Britain (as of right now) is Koji Shiraishi's Grotesque. The BBFC said of it:

'Unlike other recent 'torture' themed horror works, such as the Saw and Hostel series, Grotesque features minimal narrative or character development and presents the audience with little more than an unrelenting and escalating scenario of humiliation, brutality and sadism. In spite of a vestigial attempt to 'explain' the killer's motivations at the very end of the film, the chief pleasure on offer is not related to understanding the motivations of any of the central characters. Rather, the chief pleasure on offer seems to be wallowing in the spectacle of sadism (including sexual sadism) for its own sake.' (source)

The author reportedly loved the decision, citing that the response was what he desired in an inversion of the film's 'true' meaning... it's up for judgement, but this might help anyone reading this make some considerations also.

Sex scenes can be very passionately conveyed as they stand-alone, like you say, and there's all sorts of imagery with ranges of different connotations (lots of them being psychological, as I'll move on to in a moment). Alternatively, sometimes a lack of meaning is important in a sex scene, a feeling of emptiness maybe. Lots of oppurtunities here.

Other works bring in sex and apply it to a wider context. Masoch's Venus in Furs has the famous 'hammer on anvil' imagery when it comes to sexual equality, something that many NGers may have something to say about in 2010. While close reading dictates that Masoch's socialism/humanism would be unimportant in reading the story, it does have an impact on this image I think. Bret Easton Ellis' Glamorama uses an extensive and humourous graphic sex scene as part of its satire on the excess and artificial nature of the celebrity culture (the chapter between pages 334 and 340 of the Picador version published in 2000) - notably, I'm not a fan of this chapter because I thought it hurt the pacing of the story. That said, it definitely works well with the themes of the story, and Ellis is skillful at what he does.

Finally, my last point here is to stress how important an understanding of psychoanalysis can be to writing an effective sex scene with 'meaning', especially if you're using sado-masochistic measures. Learning more about psychic traits can leave you open to more ideas. On one level, some of what you may learn could be abstract. In 'Symbolism in Dreams', Freud points out the usage in dreams of phallic objects to represent the male sex organ (making the uses of guns and knives in a story multi-sided - one example I know that deliberately plays off principles like this, though I'm not sure if involves a 'sex scene' so to speak, is Renny Harlin's film The Long Kiss Goodnight - Geena Davis w/guns? Samuel L. Jackson pushed out of his car with a comparitively tiny cigarette in his mouth? Symbolism much?) and of flowers and fruits to represent a female sex organ, the latter of which was used in Trevor's example! Freud talks quite a lot about this in this essay alone.

I think keeping psychology in mind is interesting when reading Trevor's example. Note the use of pronouns: the opening few passages largely consist of identification of the female body, of emphasising the actions of various body parts, yet she is built into more of a subject part way through the 'story'. The writer has gone so far as to label, possibly even degrade the woman in his own way out of his telling of her actions in sex. We're now very visibly in a male fantasy, and the final line really, really makes this clear.

I could talk for a bit longer about this, but I'll leave it here for now. Depending on how people give their input here, perhaps we could work a bit further on it.

Oh, one last point:

Be careful if you're intending to use masochism as a form of self-abuse. The principles aren't actually like that at all. For one example, see my thoughts on feminist criticism of surrealism in this thread, but an even simpler way of putting it would be in this Amazon.com review of Malcolm McKesson's Matriarchy: Freedom In Bondage.

And regretfully, I cannot comment deeply in this post about homosexual erotic literature.

Hope this is useful for anyone.

[vow2thou]

At 2/23/10 11:55 AM, Seraphim17 wrote: ...it is still a respectable form of literature in my book.

I see what you did there.

At 2/23/10 11:57 AM, munio wrote: should we bother to define a border between sex used in a litterary way and sex of the "fap fap fap" kind?

Honestly, I don't think it is even possible to strictly make that distinction. While there are some pieces of literature that are obviously 'fan service', some pieces of literature make excellent use of eroticism as a narrative device. Yet, these same pieces may be easily used as a mere tool for arousal by any other reader.

Erotic literature is a genre like any other. As such, there are some who will laud it for all of its intentions, and those who will greet it with disdain for the exact same reasons. Argument over it's merit is akin to arguing whether fantasy is a viable genre because 'it doesn't actually exist'.

Perhaps a problem with erotic literature (as I was discussing with another user before) is that it is very easy to write something that can garner a readership without much care for any element (such as narrative, or character integrity/development) other than the sex.

My two pennies worth.

[TheReno]

Want a book with sex in it but its not erotica? Read American Gods by Neil Gaiman. That book has so much sex but none of it is for a plot. Its just there. It sometimes creates a little tension but thats about it. And i love it. Not because its porn but because thats human nature. Sometimes a duck is a duck and sometimes sex is just sex. To me thats how sex should be used in stories. The same as its used in real life. Most sex scenes in many books try to throw all this importance in it like its some sort of magic thing that makes people love each other more. Its just sticking a stick in a hole repeatedly to receive pleasure. Thats what it boils down to anyway. I mean yeah its awesome but when is the last time you had sex and made a life changing decision because of it. Yeah thats what I thought.

[sinfulwolf]

I'll start off by saying I used to write smut a few years back. I call it smut rather than erotic literature because the sole purpose of this writing was to arouse, rather than tell a story. What little plot I had was a simple veil draped over a page of sexual acts, from normal sex to what some may call quite perverse.

Regardless I've moved on from that, though some want me to return to that old style of writing as I was apparently decent at it.

On topic, as I said in the lounge, sex can be used to enhance a story, and most of the points I wanted to bring up were mentioned by Trevor so I will not recount them again. Though, as others have said, sex is a natural human function, and to some people in the world, a driving factor in their lives. They need more, crave more.

Now for something that hasn't been mentioned, sex can add a layer of complexity to a story. Though it doesn't have to be described in detail, it can be mentioned and have a large impact on the characters. Case in point, Arthurian legend. When Guenevere took Lancelot to her bed it rattled the king to his core, it shook his entire world. I've seen this handled many different ways, and the two most recent books dealing with Arthurian legend (both referring to the queen by her original name of Welsh legend Gwenhwyfar) handled it in two ways I've never seen before. The first was Bernard Cornwell's Arthurian trilogy "The Warlord Chronicles" in which Gwenhwyfar was a worshiper of Isis and through sexual rituals and trying herself to Lancelot was trying to bring this knight to power due to personal ambition. She knew that she could control him using her sexuality while the much more pure Arthur she could not manipulate nearly as well. It added a lot to her character I found, and the act seemed so devious and cold despite the very heated actions she used.

The second book, titled simply "Gwenhwyfar: The White Spirit" written by Mercedes Lackey, had the queen's relationship with Arthur a cold distant one. The king simply had sex with her in efforts to have a son and heir to his throne. The distant relationship with her husband and the close relationship she had with Lancelin (the name they use for Lancelot in this particular book) brought them together. After sex had been dealt with so very distantly and off-handedly through the rest of the text, the graphic details of their first coupling near the end of the novel made the moment seem that much more intimate. Again however, it caused a rift in the kingdom, and added another layer of deceit and betrayal to the plot.

The next story I'm writing, I plan to open using a sex scene at the end of the chapter to showcase the character's need for human contact despite forcing herself to live separated from the world. It may or may not been seen that way by the reader, but that is my plan. It will be shown as simple casual sex that doesn't impact on the story beyond that point, but I still thought it a somewhat important segment to my plot and character.

[Nothins]

was going to post eirlyer, but it wont let me at school.

Good story, though to the person above, i wouldent cosider porn an art, its just smut. Though there are some porn im sure whats is passionate, that doesnt look like a "hard fuck" but you can tell they enjoy it beeply.
Bt that aside, Using a sexual scence to a story, can be good for the people, it shows they have such trust for the other, as wel las theyre wil to submit importantly. Having sexi n the story, just for it to be there, is what i dont agree with. Having it in the story and have it done in such a way that it apeals to the person reading, because you can see the closeness between the two persons and the deep fealings they do have.
With out that spark, it does become smut, and irritates me a little

[TheSubject666]

At 2/23/10 03:26 PM, TheReno wrote: Want a book with sex in it but its not erotica? Read American Gods by Neil Gaiman. That book has so much sex but none of it is for a plot. Its just there. It sometimes creates a little tension but thats about it. And i love it. Not because its porn but because thats human nature. Sometimes a duck is a duck and sometimes sex is just sex. To me thats how sex should be used in stories.

Read the book but sometimes it WAS used for story development. The wife thing was used to show how the main character had no to little regrets after his wife died.

[sinfulwolf]

At 2/23/10 04:20 PM, nothingmater wrote:
Good story, though to the person above, i wouldent cosider porn an art, its just smut. Though there are some porn im sure whats is passionate, that doesnt look like a "hard fuck" but you can tell they enjoy it beeply.

I never said I considered porn an art, nor my earlier smut writings. I'm just saying that's where I started with my writing. In something that I wouldn't consider art, before moving into something I would consider art.

[WritersBlock]

I've read some sex scenes that work brilliantly in books. There's a difference between writing erotica/porn and writing a sex scene into a relatively sex-free story in order to progress the plot. If you read a book and then read the same book with a sex scene in it, you're likely to think differently about the book as a whole. It's the writer's job to ask him/herself what they want the sex to mean and how it is to affect the reader's interpretation of the story.

I read a novel once, where the main character has an intimate relationship with his cousin. The sex is represented as a beautiful, mutual thing, and while it pitches the majority of the other characters in the book against him, it positions the reader to empathise with his situation as much as we know the general thought of it is wrong wrong wrong.

And I've read others that have used sex in fiction not as porn or as smut, but as plot progressing devices, and I think if you can pull it off, why not? The issue then is making the distinction that you're not writing porn or smut, but proper, intellectual literature.

[InsertFunnyUserName]

At 2/23/10 03:26 PM, TheReno wrote: Thats what it boils down to anyway. I mean yeah its awesome but when is the last time you had sex and made a life changing decision because of it. Yeah thats what I thought.

Well, there's a difference between being an important plot device and being a life-changing experience. If you're going to have a sex scene, it should be important not necessarily to the characters, but to the story itself. Don't just throw it in there because you think its sexy. Make it connect. Yes, sex is usually just casual and probably won't end in an epiphany, but that doesn't mean you can't build it into the plot. If you can't find a way to do so, then you should probably just throw the whole scene out or work it into something that you can intertwine.

At 2/23/10 04:20 PM, nothingmater wrote: With out that spark, it does become smut, and irritates me a little

Or you can see to the contrary. A sex scene can further develop a character's personality as shallow and superficial, sadistically greedy, apathetic, selfish, detached, etc just as much as it can portray him/her as devoted, loving, infatuated, sensual, etc (see sinfulwolf's examples).

[Raethen]

Authors and writers put life experiences or fantasies into their work. Those ingredients are why literature speaks to every individual. You enjoy the thought of undead things drinking your liquids; what will you read? A book about vampires. Society seems to place either a great deal of emotional value behind the act of sex, or simply to sedate an addiction. Sex in literature portrays both of these perfectly.
Need an example? Here's a fresh one; Tiger Woods. This is a real life example of your perfect Erotic Literature. Man goes around using his fame to seduce women. Although the outcomes do not coincide they are still similar in many ways.
A couple will fall in love, get married, and use sex as an expression of their love. It won't further the relationship, but it definitely helps to portray feelings. The reality of a non-erotic based sex scene in lit.
Sex can also be used for other things, but these two are the most common.
For an outsider, take Atlas Shrugged as an example. Dagny Taggart wasn't a whore, neither did she love. The sex she shared with her partners was a display of her dominance. It was a kind of "look who I own now" attitude. She did not live from one fix to the next, and it wasn't making love. Her actions did not further the plot, but it lead to a great deal of insight to her character. I felt I knew her better in bed than any other time.
The taboo based fears of sex have always eluded me. In my opinion it is only a means of expressing oneself. The next time you have sex, listen to your partner; pay attention to him or her. You will notice things you might never have noticed before.
There's my take on the matter.

[InsertFunnyUserName]

At 2/23/10 09:29 PM, Raethen wrote: The taboo based fears of sex have always eluded me. In my opinion it is only a means of expressing oneself.

I don't think the issues regarding sex scenes are totally due with sex's taboo. In fact, I really think they, for the most part, come down to people just not knowing how to write it effectively. It's hard to portray erotica in a way that isn't smut, harder than it seems. In other words, its an area where failure rates are high and so the genre of scenes gets looked down upon. I mean, yes, there are people who frown upon erotica for purely ethical reasons, but when you get away from that group, you'll find more people (I think, anyways, from what I've seen) that just don't think it's something that can be easily pulled off (and I'm not saying that I don't think it can be done, I'm just saying that culture isn't the only issue, albeit you could argue that society is where the failure rates stem from. But, that's a different argument).

[Nothins]

to me, now sex is more welcomed, i guess then any other period un time, so as why its looked down upon, i don't find that to be the biggest reason.
in mu opinion alone that is.

[Version2]

At 2/23/10 07:30 AM, TrevorW wrote: Though I would shy away from using sex as a common practice and I would flower up the language...let's keep it clean, eh? Lol. Many people simply find the terms: "hard fuck," "plowed her pussy so hard," ect as idiotic male talk. We really are idiots, but hey got to love us.

There are certainly places where you can use this type of language and it helps describe the scene better. It all depends on what you are trying to do. In a romantic scene? No, that doesn't work. But I like my sex fast, furious, and filthy.

If you come home to your loving wife, laying naked on the bed, you come closer to caress her her radiant beauty, your hands running over soft skin. Your eyes meet and witness the longing, love, and lust within her. Eyes locked, you lean down and playfully flick her nipple with your tongue, causing her to gasp. She grabs the back of your head and pulls you into a deep kiss, her soft lips and velvety tongue telling the stories and emotions that simple words could never express.

If you stumble into a dirty bathroom with a drunk slut, you tear at her tits while you drunkenly tongue fuck the girls mouth, smearing lipstick and saliva. You reach a hand up her skirt, and rip her thong to the side so you can shove your fingers into her sloppy wet pussy. You feel your dick growing as her petite hands rub your cock through your jeans.

Two different situations, two completely different feels, and the language makes all the difference. If I had tried to use the softer language in the second example it would come out weird.

I had more to say, but I'm really tired right now, and I forgot what my point was. Maybe after I get some sleep I'll post again. Good night NG Writers!

[zbox101]

At 2/23/10 07:30 AM, TrevorW wrote:

I personally feel that a sex scene can either be informatively deep and progressive or not, it doesn't matter so long as the right approach is taken for that story. After all sex is a major part of life and we wouldn't be doing life justice if we ignored it. However, I also do not feel a liking towards the over explicit smut...in a creative sense. In fact I would suggest that the sex scene never be pointless; but if not deep, at least purposeful.

I'm choosing to respond to this, because you are 100% correct here. The only exception is if you're writing porn, sex scenes in themselves show character development, move a plot, and most importantly engage the reader. But one must always remember that it isn't always necessary. One can always insinuate that people are having sex (like the show Two and a Half Men) but if you have a story like the one I'm writing (Tale of the Rapist Hunter) these scenes are extremely relevant. This is an interesting topic and when I have more time I might go through more of it.

[Ravariel]

In any story you write, every scene needs to be necessary for the story to work. This applies to stories including sex and not -- stories intended to arouse, intrigue, horrify, or any other word. Every scene needs to be appropriate for the story as well. Just as a Michael Bay gunfire and explosion orgy wouldn't work in a medieval romance story, nor does a poorly-placed sex scene in any context.

Even those stories meant to simply arouse, for pornography, the sex scenes and the non-sex scenes should advance a story, a plot, however minimal. If the reader can't connect to the characters and what is happening, then they're less likely to feel the desired emotions. I personally don't really draw a line between "smut", "pornography", "erotica", and "real" literature. I do draw a line between good and bad writing, however, and a lot of "erotica" falls in the bad column, because authors usually think they can simply describe in awkward words the scene they just saw in Back Door Babes 37, and it'll be fine.

Hell, the inspiration for my current story, The Power (starts about halfway down the page) is a couple of pieces of erotic literature that I thought could be made more mainstream and pulled off in a more elegant fashion. They both kind of struggle from the fact that they consider themselves only erotica, and so are required to put in at least one, if not more, sex scene(s) in every chapter, and will often sacrifice pace and storytelling to do so.

It's a struggle to most writers to handle sex elegantly because it is something that isn't done often. Either due to cultural mores or whatever, but without practice how does anyone expect to be able to write an effective scene about anything? If you've never written a chase scene before, how can you expect to do it well? Same with sex. Granted we have more cases that we can read and watch and research with chase scenes than we do with (well-done) sex scenes, but still it comes down to practice. For those wanting to include a sexual element, I would suggest reading all you can of works that include sex scenes (both erotic and not, and simply writing them. You'll suck at first... because we always suck at what we just start as, but with editing and feedback you'll improve. Keep tone, context, plot, character development in mind (just like you do for any other scene) and you'll do fine.