Making use of the enemy of society.

[Masterzakk]

We all know that prisoners and such people don't change. Most criminals are sociopaths and the mentally retarded. This world have been plagued by idealism too damn long and I say we should go back into the time of using slaves. Granted it is kind of barbaric but we need to keep in tune into nature. We should make prisoners on death row worked to death and even just let other inmates kill them out of sport, I'm sure we'd all like to get into our violent side! These people deserve no sympathy and they will never give society sympathy. Even though I am disdainful of society and it's bullshit shrouded in candy canes and gum drops they are still useful. Even though I might be near worthless, that doesn't mean that I'm completely worthless right? Society benefits as a whole from this. Cheap labor that even the farthest of the right agrees with.

Nobody truely changes and nature will always become first over nurture. Our personalities, "fate", interests, ideals, and goals are all hard-wired at birth. A thief is still a thief and a good man is still a good man. Why not help that good man? He deserves what he wishes The thief deserves nothing but cruelity, mockery, and to be purged from this world.

Also it will help our economic drought that we are facing. A depression will at a rather low chance follow if we don't use slaves based on criminals. Hell even if they aren't guilty of the crime they will never be missed.

[Gunner-D]

At 2/10/10 08:36 AM, Masterzakk wrote: We all know that prisoners and such people don't change. Most criminals are sociopaths and the mentally retarded.

You are very brazen for lumping in the mentally retarded with the criminally insane. What about those innocent "retarded" people that you talk about? I'm not going to even take this to a personal level, just know that you are more than wrong.

Hell even if they aren't guilty of the crime they will never be missed.

Hell, we abolished slavery about 150 years ago. The principle of "innocent unti proven guitly" was established way before that...

Let me put your views in context.

You are outspoken about the established methods of our government. Therefore you are under arrest for as a political prisoner. To keep you from expressing your views to the masses again, we are shipping you out to a cold, remote forced labor camp nowhere near society. When your sentence is through, you will be moved to another desolate remote location where you will live out the rest of your life, never able to talk to or see anyone of your loved ones, friends, or any non-criminal again.

There are places in the world that practice this method. Move there so I never have to hear from you again.

[SolInvictus]

you do know that creating a new thread generally means you should come up with a new topic for debate?

At 2/10/10 10:04 AM, Gunner-D wrote: You are very brazen for lumping in the mentally retarded with the criminally insane...

don't bother, hes here to piss other people off.

[TransparentPresence]

We all know that prisoners and such people don't change. Most criminals are sociopaths and the mentally retarded. This world have been plagued by idealism too damn long and I say we should go back into the time of using slaves. Granted it is kind of barbaric but we need to keep in tune into nature...Even though I might be near worthless, that doesn't mean that I'm completely worthless right? Society benefits as a whole from this. Cheap labor that even the farthest of the right agrees with.

I agree that many people guilty of crime, especially these days do not deserve sympathy, as they just take advantage of our justice systems and use emotional blackmail to be released and just attack, abuse, assault and torment future victims. And perhaps using such prisoners to do work so to cut labour expenses for a nation may not be such a bad thing...it is putting such people to usefulness for a nation they may have terrorised.

We should make prisoners on death row worked to death and even just let other inmates kill them out of sport, I'm sure we'd all like to get into our violent side!

This is where I disagree...just because these criminals are insane and psycopaths and mentally retarded does not mean we have to go to their level, it would basically mean that we have let the criminals win. But what are you trying to say, that we should treat such people as sport to keep us entertained rather than trying to make an example to society to prevent such criminals from ever coming into existance. Remember that the society that begins to disregard human life is a society that is certainly heading for its own destruction. I suppose then if you say that if forced prisoner labour is more of a correction program, perhaps it would lead to a decrease of criminals and then such labour should become less necessary...even so maybe there will always be criminals in which you can do this to, but I think society should always aim in getting the best out of people, at least for the criminals that are not beyond redemption if you know what I mean, it's useless to apply such principles to a deranged maniac who has no regard for life anyway.

These people deserve no sympathy and they will never give society sympathy. Even though I am disdainful of society and it's bullshit shrouded in candy canes and gum drops they are still useful. :

Nobody truely changes and nature will always become first over nurture. Our personalities, "fate", interests, ideals, and goals are all hard-wired at birth. A thief is still a thief and a good man is still a good man. Why not help that good man? He deserves what he wishes The thief deserves nothing but cruelity, mockery, and to be purged from this world.

Also it will help our economic drought that we are facing. A depression will at a rather low chance follow if we don't use slaves based on criminals. Hell even if they aren't guilty of the crime they will never be missed.

Well that is basically true, but it is such a two sided view. There is always a number of factors that make people into what they are, certain lifestyles and enviroments that they have grown up in. What I'm trying to say is that many innocent people get affected by the crimes commited, should we not try to prevent to stop people from experiencing such tragedy? I think there should be a correction in the way the justice system works, it should be more efficent...because these days too many people are charged with crimes they did not commit and serve time for nothing and to many evil criminals get away with it.

Punish the wicked, and punish them bad, but you still have to try and see if they can be corrected, you have to make society improve for the better, always. And I'm not denying that there will always be criminals who will never be corrected.

[Ericho]

At 2/10/10 08:36 AM, Masterzakk wrote: We all know that prisoners and such people don't change. Most criminals are sociopaths and the mentally retarded.

Woah, I think you're really trying to get into an argument. While I will agree that criminals should be punished, you should not say that they can not change. Case in point: Stanley Williams was a guy who was sentenced to be executed and was executed but was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize while he was in jail.

This world have been plagued by idealism too damn long and I say we should go back into the time of using slaves.

You are really looking like an extremist now, as that is certainly something no one would be willing to partake in. I don't know about you, but idealism is important to me and with it, we have been able to come up with new ideas that have advanced our lives and brought peace on ourselves.

[ohbombuh]

Hang on, let me go through my moral guides here:
-The Bible accepts the idea of slavery.
-The U.S. government is probably open to bribes so I don't care what it says at this exact moment.
-Aaaand the BBS rules say nothing about slavery.
Go for it! Our economy is crumbling, our army is an empty threat in terrorist eyes, and our moral standards in other matters have been falling for decades (in my opinion). If our country is inevitably going to fall, we should make a long, hard struggle first. Short of that, we might as well ditch it like all those Europeans did to their homeland over the past few centuries. Success is better than patriotism and clinging to perversions of an economic practice that can be more ethical than we're used to perceiving it as.

[Gunner-D]

At 2/13/10 12:30 AM, ohbombuh wrote: Hang on, let me go through my moral guides here:

Here we go...

-The Bible accepts the idea of slavery.

So you say slavery is OK cause the Bible says so? If Moses were alive today, he'd whoop your ass.

-The U.S. government is probably open to bribes so I don't care what it says at this exact moment.

What does bribery have to do with penal systems and forced labor? If the US government were taking bribes to a significant extent, wouldn't you think that this type of slave labor would be legal?

-Aaaand the BBS rules say nothing about slavery.

It says nothing about eating dog shit and that is still a bad idea.

Go for it! Our economy is crumbling

Great idea. Let's create another miserable indignant underclass of criminals.

our army is an empty threat in terrorist eyes

What do you know about the army? Do you see through terrorist's eyes?

and our moral standards in other matters have been falling for decades (in my opinion).

OK Bibleman, in other words you're saying "OH darn I just said the lords name in vain, I might as well find a loose transexual prostitute and receive ass-to-mouth sex."

If our country is inevitably going to fall, we should make a long, hard struggle first.

You think our country will fall? It's OK if you don't.
But if you think it will, the proper "long, hard struggle" would be to arrest people and force them to work as slaves? Let's we the quality products the US creates then.

Wouldn't you think the long, hard struggle would be something akin to the war effort during WW2; The determination, hard work, and sacrifice of the military and civilians?

Or would it be better if the police went around arresting as many people as they could so we could accummulate a free labor pool of potentially innocent people?

This is so fucking insane/

[ohbombuh]

At 2/13/10 01:10 AM, Gunner-D wrote: Here we go...

Sorry I take a while answering questions. I was going to do this last night, but my Internet connection kicked out half an hour earlier than usual.

-The Bible accepts the idea of slavery.

So you say slavery is OK cause the Bible says so? If Moses were alive today, he'd whoop your ass.

1. Moses isn't the chief authority of the Bible.
2. Most of the things he criminalized were punishable by death. If he couldn't use a retributive justice system, I'm sure he'd go for something more practical than taxing good citizens to pay for lawbreakers' housing and food for years.

-The U.S. government is probably open to bribes so I don't care what it says at this exact moment.

What does bribery have to do with penal systems and forced labor? If the US government were taking bribes to a significant extent, wouldn't you think that this type of slave labor would be legal?

Perhaps, but only if the right people were guiding the government.

-Aaaand the BBS rules say nothing about slavery.

It says nothing about eating dog shit and that is still a bad idea.

It would be an individual choice. If I ate dog shit, all the benefits and punishments would be from the act itself, and we have plenty to gain from making use of our prisoners.

Go for it! Our economy is crumbling

Great idea. Let's create another miserable indignant underclass of criminals.

We'd be replacing one group of criminals (I.E. the captured ones) with workers. Maybe they'd still be miserable and indignant, but it's up to them how they'll react to things out of their control.

our army is an empty threat in terrorist eyes

What do you know about the army? Do you see through terrorist's eyes?

I'm not saying whose eyes I see through.

and our moral standards in other matters have been falling for decades (in my opinion).

OK Bibleman, in other words you're saying "OH darn I just said the lords name in vain, I might as well find a loose transexual prostitute and receive ass-to-mouth sex."

Ummm...you're going to have to explain that connection to me.

If our country is inevitably going to fall, we should make a long, hard struggle first.

You think our country will fall? It's OK if you don't.

Whether it falls or not will be up to both civilians and politicians to do what must be done.

But if you think it will, the proper "long, hard struggle" would be to arrest people and force them to work as slaves?

We'd be arresting lawbreakers (not just anyone we picked out of a crowd), giving them a fair trial, and if they're found guilty, they can choose between working off what they owe society or an extended prison sentence.

Let's we the quality products the US creates then.

What.

Wouldn't you think the long, hard struggle would be something akin to the war effort during WW2; The determination, hard work, and sacrifice of the military and civilians?

We can have that too, but it should be concentrated on some benefit other than criminals sitting around in prisons wasting space and energy.

Or would it be better if the police went around arresting as many people as they could so we could accummulate a free labor pool of potentially innocent people?

It would be best if good people were working hard in the first place, and at the same time people who'd been tried and found guilty of serious crimes were shown the virtues of hard work.

This is so fucking insane/

...I like your argument style.

[Gunner-D]

I spoke of Moses because led the slaves out of Egypt. And seeing as the Bible is your moral authority, I'd figure you'd have made the distinction.

Simply put, without all the needless quotes and rebuttals, they have forced labor camps for criminals in China. Move there. The slaves have been freed in this country and there is no reason to go backwards.

When the terms of mandatory "slave labor" is brought up, it invokes a very inexcusable offense against certain populations in the US. In when the argument comes up that criminals should be used as slaves, that is redefining the code of our penal system. Which, due to the interwoven relationship of penal code and criminal justice, redefines what it means to be criminal. Therefore, it is impossible to assess the actual effect of reintroducing the terms of "slavery", "forced labor", or "hard labor" back into the public, but Im sure it would not be as nearly as effective as your theory prescribes. So, civically, no point as been made for the benefit of this labor. I'm sure if we enhance the current penal code to be more astringent, it would be more effective in reducing crime than forced labor.

Economically, there is no such thing as a free lunch, so this would not be "free" labor, no matter what anyone would try to argue. And even if it was much cheaper than current labor, the potential for abuse of this labor market would be extreme. Not to mention the countless number of jobs these criminals would take from the general public.

I have not heard one idea yet about what job these criminals would engage in while incarcerated.

We'd be arresting lawbreakers (not just anyone we picked out of a crowd), giving them a fair trial, and if they're found guilty, they can choose between working off what they owe society or an extended prison sentence.

Why would a judge allow a criminal, who has committed a serious enough offense to warrant prison or hard labor, to choose their punishment? Do they allow murderers to choose the death penalty, or sex offenders to choose euthanasia? You seem to be in favor of changing our legal code in more ways than one.

[BrianEtrius]

At 2/10/10 08:36 AM, Masterzakk wrote: We all know that prisoners and such people don't change.

OH RLY?

Most criminals are sociopaths and the mentally retarded.

So robbers, tax frauds, and con men are on the same level as murders and rapists? And their IQ is down the toilet? Link plz.

This world have been plagued by idealism too damn long and I say we should go back into the time of using slaves.

Didn't we have a huge war about this and a bunch of people died...? I can't seem to recall this......

Granted it is kind of barbaric but we need to keep in tune into nature.

Nature wills this? I want to see proof of this.......

We should make prisoners on death row worked to death and even just let other inmates kill them out of sport, I'm sure we'd all like to get into our violent side!

So what? You want to see Gladiator in real life? No thanks, I bet even old German Nazis would go "That's not right."

These people deserve no sympathy and they will never give society sympathy.

How about those screwed over by the Three Strikes and You're Out Law we have? Seems unfair to them.

Even though I am disdainful of society and it's bullshit shrouded in candy canes and gum drops they are still useful.

You know, a simple look over at CNN, just see how many people died today in Afghanistan should be good enough....

Even though I might be near worthless, that doesn't mean that I'm completely worthless right?

From the looks of it, you're pretty damn worthless on this board.

Society benefits as a whole from this.

Really now? Care to explain?

Cheap labor that even the farthest of the right agrees with.

I could of sworn the right was against those illegal immigrants who come in and work less than the minimum wage...............

Nobody truely changes and nature will always become first over nurture.

Evidence plz.

Our personalities, "fate", interests, ideals, and goals are all hard-wired at birth.

A lot of psychologists would disagree with you on that. Skinner, among others.

A thief is still a thief and a good man is still a good man.

Identity logic! Wow, that must of been really hard for you to figure out.

Why not help that good man?

Because good is subjective. Could mean anything. If I kill an abortion doctor, am I "good"? Not under the eyes of law. Murder is murder. Period.

He deserves what he wishes

Oh good, now if we just play by the rules we get everything we want? I wonder from who? WHOOPS

The thief deserves nothing but cruelity, mockery, and to be purged from this world.

According to you, but not our law that we've had for, gee, how many years now?

Also it will help our economic drought that we are facing.

Really? At this point, I'm sure a dropping of a nuclear bomb on China would also help our economy.

A depression will at a rather low chance follow if we don't use slaves based on criminals.

I could of sworn we still had a depression even with slaves..

Hell even if they aren't guilty of the crime they will never be missed.

How about all the families you have to answer to?

I call bullshit on bullshit.

[Dawnslayer]

At 2/10/10 08:36 AM, Masterzakk wrote: Nobody truely changes and nature will always become first over nurture.

Can you prove this statement?

Our personalities, "fate", interests, ideals, and goals are all hard-wired at birth.

Can you prove this statement?

A thief is still a thief and a good man is still a good man.

Why is the thief a thief to begin with?

Why not help that good man? He deserves what he wishes

How do you know that man is good?

The thief deserves nothing but cruelity, mockery, and to be purged from this world.

Why?

[ohbombuh]

Can you prove this statement?
Can you prove this statement?

Think about statements yourself. If you conclude one can't be proven, just say so instead of putting it in such an annoying question.

A thief is still a thief and a good man is still a good man.

Why is the thief a thief to begin with?

There's something they want that they decide there's no better way to get it than forcefully taking it. Watch Ocean's Eleven if you haven't yet.

The thief deserves nothing but cruelty, mockery, and to be purged from this world.

Why?

Believe it or not, it's a bad idea to take things that aren't yours from people who want to keep them. In closing, I'd advise you to quit sticking a "why?" or "really?" on every statement like a 4-year-old. Write out a legitimate counterargument if you disagree with something and let the person flounder if they're wrong, but try to demonstrate at least as much thought as them.

[DelphinusMach1]

Why is the thief a thief to begin with?

There's something they want that they decide there's no better way to get it than forcefully taking it. Watch Ocean's Eleven if you haven't yet.

Ocean's Eleven is not a moral treatise, it's an action film. Why the fuck are you using it as an example? Besides that, what makes you think that one character from one film is any kind of indicator as to the cause of all thieves turning to careers of crime?

The thief deserves nothing but cruelty, mockery, and to be purged from this world.

Why?

Believe it or not, it's a bad idea to take things that aren't yours from people who want to keep them. In closing, I'd advise you to quit sticking a "why?" or "really?" on every statement like a 4-year-old. Write out a legitimate counterargument if you disagree with something and let the person flounder if they're wrong, but try to demonstrate at least as much thought as them.

Maybe it would help if you'd posted an actual argument instead of just spouting a conclusion. Debates go "Premise 1, Premise 2, Premise x, Conclusion", not "CONCLUSION PROVIDE A COUNTER-ARGUMENT, BITCH". Your prolix, self-fallating non-sequitors are annoying.

[BrianEtrius]

At 2/15/10 03:48 PM, ohbombuh wrote: Think about statements yourself. If you conclude one can't be proven, just say so instead of putting it in such an annoying question.

That's not his problem. If you find it annoying, that's your problem. And besides, if you make a claim, it's up to you to prove it. Basic rules of debating.

There's something they want that they decide there's no better way to get it than forcefully taking it. Watch Ocean's Eleven if you haven't yet.

Ocean's Eleven is a remake of a Rat Pack movie that glamorizes robbery so that apparently you can get away with it by wearing a tuxedo. It's a movie, not proof. Besides, if all thieves looked like George Clooney, we'd all be screwed.

Believe it or not, it's a bad idea to take things that aren't yours from people who want to keep them.

According to the OP, not really. According to the OP, we should take away basic rights that belong to everybody and use them for slave labor. WHOOPS

In closing, I'd advise you to quit sticking a "why?" or "really?" on every statement like a 4-year-old. Write out a legitimate counterargument if you disagree with something and let the person flounder if they're wrong, but try to demonstrate at least as much thought as them.

Again, that's your problem, not the other person's. If somebody says something you have every rights to ask the basic question "Why?" or "How?". That's debating, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, too bad. Get over your ego trip. This is not your own personal board. If you don't like it, you can leave at any time. Otherwise, shut up and go along with the ride. And judging by the way you debate, it seems like you're the one acting like a 4 year old when things doesn't go your way.

[ohbombuh]

At 2/15/10 04:37 PM, BrianEtrius wrote: if you make a claim, it's up to you to prove it. Basic rules of debating.

OK, sure, have it your way. Start by proving that that's a basic rule.

Ocean's Eleven is a remake of a Rat Pack movie that glamorizes robbery so that apparently you can get away with it by wearing a tuxedo. It's a movie, not proof. Besides, if all thieves looked like George Clooney, we'd all be screwed.

Prove each of those statements too.

If somebody says something you have every rights to ask the basic question "Why?" or "How?".

Prove you have that right.

.....things doesn't go...

I think I've sufficiently demonstrated the futility of having to prove every single thing you say, so I'll take this opportunity to set aside your understanding of subject-verb agreement rules.

[Gunner-D]

This thread has gone retarded.

At 2/15/10 06:28 PM, ohbombuh wrote:

At 2/15/10 04:37 PM, BrianEtrius wrote: If somebody says something you have every rights to ask the basic question "Why?" or "How?".

Prove you have that right.

You're diving way too far back into history. Socrates was killed for asking the question "Why?". Are you siding with the men that killed him? Or do you believe he should have been used as slave labor?

Does he need 'proof' of this right? Or is it just the self-evident right of free speech? Have you even heard of the FIRST AMENDMENT?

What you are engaged in is pure ignorance.

[DelphinusMach1]

"Men are born free but are everywhere in chains." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Pretty pivotal principle of the modern world.

[ohbombuh]

At 2/15/10 08:16 PM, Gunner-D wrote: Does he need 'proof' of this right? Or is it just the self-evident right of free speech? Have you even heard of the FIRST AMENDMENT?

In order: Apparently. Nothing's self-evident if you have to back up every claim you make. And under that theory, we need some proof behind the Constitution that proves it's right, and so on. I was demonstrating how this will never get us anywhere.

What you are engaged in is pure ignorance.

Think of me as a mirror. I don't give off any light or color, I just make them more noticeable for the viewer.

[Gunner-D]

This is going nowhere.

Tell me, what do you think about China's forced labor camps? Not in relation to the United States prison system.

[ohbombuh]

At 2/15/10 09:36 PM, Gunner-D wrote: Tell me, what do you think about China's forced labor camps?

(Generalizing as much as possible here...) Forced labor of those who wouldn't commit crimes to stay alive is bad. Forcing labor on those who have committed crimes is basically trying to redirect their energy so that the criminal's existence doesn't detract from the well-being of the nation. If someone doesn't work but doesn't do anything criminal to stay alive, I see no reason to force them to work. I don't really know what system China operates on (my World Cultures teacher only focuses on "important" countries like Zimbabwe). Of course, if Americans created a forced labor system, we shouldn't look to the past or foreign countries for inspiration, as that could make us less objective in considering what should be done.

[Gunner-D]

It's good that you are not for arresting, imprisoning, and enslaving innocent people, but forcing labor upon a population and offering the opportunity at an occupation are two separate ideas.