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3.80 / 5.00 4,200 ViewsIf you say. Your being racist, your automatically being a hypocrit.
You are making that distinction between black people and white people and thus treating them as a different race (which is true). But consider that it is your distinction, that generates the idea of racism in this world where everybody is given the same liberty.
First Example
If 6 black men get on one bus which is late, and 6 white people get on a bus which comes on time, it can be argued that there is a case of racism, where the bus driver (white) knows that the black people are being picked up, and simply doesn't want to pick them up.
This isn't racism.
This is a case of a bus drivers mentality. If you say that the bus driver is discriminating against the black people, you are thus saying that the black people are different from white people, instead of treating them as just people.
There is a paradox in racism, because everybody has the same rights. Now if the bus driver (black) was late for the white people, and conscious that he would only pick white people up, it would not be accounted for as racism, it would mean that the bus was simply late.
This means that people, are generating this distinction between blacks and whites psychologically. Playing the racism card does not exist in an equal world, therefore playing the racism card in support for an equal world, is a false argument.
Second Example
If a black man with the exact same qualifications as a white person does not get the job, and the white person gets the job. It would be quick for some to call racism. This is not the case in a free world.
Now this is a tricky one. Being disapproved because you are black is a liberty that the employer would have a right to have in an equal world, and by playing the Racism card, it would no longer be an equal world. We are accepting social stereotypes and beliefs.
So lets take it back. Imagine that blacks and whites exist in a power balance in the argument, and this middle mode of existence in this perfect world, negates all conclusions of discrimination. We live in a free world where racist remarks don't exist. Please read this very carefully.
In this equal world where racism doesn't exist the scenario would become, one person didn't get the job because of difference, and another person got the job because he lacks that difference.
This is where we step into, the paradox of moral tolerance, because if we value tolerance because we believe people are autonomous, and should have the right to express their freedom as they see fit (the black people should have the exact same freedom as the white people), what could be considered morally wrong is tolerated. Although the difference between people would be entirely negated psychologically, they would not be negated realistically. Black people would still be black and white people would still be white.
So in a matter of balance in power, any manner of conflict between the two could become a racist belief. This would only happen if the white people were on the same power balance as the black people. We generate a paradox of moral tolerance.
On a system of virtues, by tolerating what is morally wrong, what is morally wrong is therefore morally right, because it thus should be tolerated. But the very first person who gets turned down for a job because he is black, and argues that the employer is being racist, is diminishing the freedom of the employer in a balanced society, and the power balance moves a little to the blacks side of the case. Yet it is only that the freedom for the white person is being diminished, and giving the black man more power over the white person in society. In actual fact it is the black man who is being racist, and although it may appear that the difference was established by the employer, the difference is actually established by the black person who calls racism.
It is impossible to achieve a world of equality, where racism cannot exist. Racism would still exist because we would have the freedom to express our opinions and virtues, but it would not be racism, it would just be expressing our beliefs in a manner of freedom.
So calling Racism in hopes to free the black people from discrimination, in any scenario, is a false gesture. You are discriminating against the values of the opposing freedom, beating it with a stick until it is forced to correspond to the ways of thinking that society says are right, and such discrimination goes unaccounted for.
So lets apply this by revoking a freedom of someone to express their views (the employer). That view is diminished in the acceptance of the freedom for the black employee. Yet society tells us that the black employee is being discriminated against, but by fighting for the virtues of the black employee, diminishes the freedoms for the virtue of the white employer.
A state of equality, by calling racism, is what generates that difference in the first place, and establishes that difference, instead of treating the situation as a matter of people, we treat the situation as a matter of black and white, a contrast.
As long as difference exists in this world, realistically discrimination must proportionally exist in this world. We cannot by the rules of our society negate this difference without leading to an extreme violence (mass genocide), which would establish further difference and conflict between a people, but ultimately produce a single free society.
By calling racism we are not solving anything, and only feeding the idea of discrimination. It exists in our minds, whether people are loosing out because of there race or not. It is only if we negate our beliefs, and escape the idea of discrimination, that we could ever treat everybody the same, even though there not.
I stand strong until defeated so. Your thoughts?
TL;DR; Read ^^
I agree. Furthermore, I now believe that sandwiches do not exist. As proof, here are two examples of things that are not sandwiches:
1. Hammer drills
2. Exuberance
At 2/6/10 10:11 AM, Elfer wrote: I agree. Furthermore, I now believe that sandwiches do not exist. As proof, here are two examples of things that are not sandwiches:
1. Hammer drills
2. Exuberance
Sir your logic confounds me!
I like the bit where you said that acknowledging that different races exist and that people treat others differently depending upon their race is racist.
At 2/6/10 10:29 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I like the bit where you said that acknowledging that different races exist and that people treat others differently depending upon their race is racist.
I agree with what you said; Well I agree if you were being sarcastic. People of course are going to treat other races differently based upon which race they are, it's only racist when it gets hateful.
Who's your warden, baby?
Sadistic thank you for completely missing the point of the OP
This is what I've been saying for a while now, if you want to be treated equally then don't act like what your race is makes you better or unique then other races, because in the end all race is just skin tone, i.e. APPEARANCE, thus creating social division based on appearance.
"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.
At 2/6/10 10:11 AM, Elfer wrote: I agree. Furthermore, I now believe that sandwiches do not exist. As proof, here are two examples of things that are not sandwiches:
1. Hammer drills
2. Exuberance
Lemon sauce on the range. K?
At 2/6/10 10:29 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I like the bit where you said that acknowledging that different races exist and that people treat others differently depending upon their race is racist.
Thats what things seem to appear. If you say somebodys black. You can't say that. It's racist.
Even though its a fact.
At 2/6/10 09:45 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: If you say. Your being racist, your automatically being a hypocrit.
You are making that distinction between black people and white people and thus treating them as a different race (which is true).
major jump in logic is a major jump in logic.
to observe and state that an individual is being racist, i.e. he is making a distinction based on race and racial stereotypes, does not require that you recognize the difference in race of the two or more individuals involved in a racially prejudiced exchange.
At 2/6/10 02:10 PM, SolInvictus wrote:At 2/6/10 09:45 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: If you say. Your being racist, your automatically being a hypocrit.major jump in logic is a major jump in logic.
You are making that distinction between black people and white people and thus treating them as a different race (which is true).
to observe and state that an individual is being racist, i.e. he is making a distinction based on race and racial stereotypes, does not require that you recognize the difference in race of the two or more individuals involved in a racially prejudiced exchange.
You didn't read the whole thing, and you are missing the point. That distinction is a componant of a society of an absolute freedom.
The real stereotype comes from you acting like the only semantical difference between a white and black person is their skin color. WRONG.
Whites and blacks come from different CULTURES. That's why their skin color is different IN THE FIRST PLACE.
At 2/6/10 03:46 PM, polym wrote: The real stereotype comes from you acting like the only semantical difference between a white and black person is their skin color. WRONG.
Whites and blacks come from different CULTURES. That's why their skin color is different IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Far from the point. I could change the distinction of difference to. Dinosaurs and Pirates, or Newgrounds and Ebaums.
The principles would apply all the same.
At 2/6/10 03:50 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Far from the point. I could change the distinction of difference to. Dinosaurs and Pirates, or Newgrounds and Ebaums.
The principles would apply all the same.
No it's not far from the point. All you're saying is that racism exists because we make distinctions between the two races (black and white are not racists by the way, they're colors. But ok.) Blacks live in America. Thus they act like Americans. Over in Africa Africans do not act like blacks. They act like Africans.
At 2/6/10 03:46 PM, polym wrote: Whites and blacks come from different CULTURES. That's why their skin color is different IN THE FIRST PLACE.
qué?
Racism exists. there shouldn't be any doubt there. the messed up thing is that alot of people are overly sensitive. for exaple. at my work the population is like 90% hispanic, and albout half of those people don't speak english. a couple of months ago the managers fired a bunch of people, for being lazy and/or harassing other employees. in total it was actually 4 people, the first was a white guy, the second and third were black, and the fourth was mexican. that day and for like a week after we had people bitching and moaning, some even called human resources claiming that they fired him because he was mexican. even though just a week prior to that 3 people got fired that weren't mexican. now i'm no mathematician but if 90% of employees are hispanic, and 3/4ths of people that were fired are non-hispanic i'd say that statistically favors the hispanic population.
but their paranoia isn't unjustified. they have to deal with it all the time. so we had this guy come in for some reason, and he was looking for some one. he walked past a black guy walked passed a Puerto Rican guy and came to me, (i'm white) and asked me where he could find some one. now i'd consider that racist. but unfortunately hatred just breeds more hatred for alot of people so now because they've had white people act racist toward them their whole life some of the hispanics at my work have become racist themselves. and now i have to be at the receiving end of racism.
Ph.D in Kicking Your Ass
At 2/6/10 03:46 PM, polym wrote: The real stereotype comes from you acting like the only semantical difference between a white and black person is their skin color. WRONG.
Whites and blacks come from different CULTURES. That's why their skin color is different IN THE FIRST PLACE.
i'm pretty sure their skin color has to do with the part of the world that their ancestors came from. not what holidays they celebrate.
Ph.D in Kicking Your Ass
At 2/6/10 03:54 PM, polym wrote:
No it's not far from the point. All you're saying is that racism exists because we make distinctions between the two races (black and white are not racists by the way, they're colors. But ok.) Blacks live in America. Thus they act like Americans. Over in Africa Africans do not act like blacks. They act like Africans.
Oh I've said a lot more than that!
And we treat these people the same? No of course not, and see how you have made the distinction, because that is a distinction that exists in reality.
We don't make those distinctions. Those distinctions exist in the real world. All it is, a simple definition of difference in reality, which means that absolute freedom cannot exist.
People who are considered racist, judge people based on these differences. If these differences did not exist, than everybody would be treated the same.
This is how the empiricist mind works. We start with a mind, a blank slate. Our experience of this world is limited to the concepts within it. Our impression of coffee is contextual to the wetness of the coffee, and the smell of the coffee. We from that, can create a concept of the coffee. That produces an idea, and with that idea in the back of our heads, those smells can become aromatic, and we can relate that aroma to a time and location of which it had taken place. We may not remember that time and location, but in the same way a blind person from birth would not be able to envision a world from vision, we cannot envision a world with no visual concepts at all. It would not be dark, nor would it be light because we have no experience of light.
So in practice your argument from distinction can be illustrated through morality. Consider morality, how we think is based on how we feel, are we sad, happy, virtuous, lonely? Everybody has different desires. We see, and have experiences in life which make those desires and produce for ourselves a reasoning for us to act on our desires. If each and every one of us had the same experiences, we would all reach the exact same conclusions. For instance, we make judgements, to how far we should let a particular emotion affect us in any particular situation, and consider what would be the most appropriate response, we only do this because we have all been brought up on different grounds of virtues.
Yet this is not the case in our real world, we will not have the same experiences, and we will all have different desires as a consequence. It is a false environment that we treat everybody the same when difference in experience or in skin colour/race/gender.etcetera in the real world exists. At the same time the conclusions we draw from those experiences are not idea's. They exist within the real world, impartial to what we like to believe when we in our human spirit promote fairness and equality throughout the universe.
Because of the way we have been brought up throughout our lives (to have individual beliefs), as long as difference exists, difference in actions, and thought processes will exist with it. We cannot at this stage eradicate racist beliefs without discriminating against our fellow man, and his beliefs.
In our situation, if the employer had nothing to gain from not employing the black person? Does that make it racist, or does it mean he's acting on his own beliefs. If so should we allow those beliefs to exist, and allow freedom to exist (I'm going to follow this one through for the second time in my newgrounds agenda), or should we stomp down the freedom, to let another freedom florish. In either case, it is discrimination. It exists as a componant of society, and while difference still exists, there can be no truely 'free' or, 'indiscriminate', society.
TL;DR read the fucking wall.
At 2/6/10 11:47 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Thats what things seem to appear. If you say somebodys black. You can't say that. It's racist.
wait, are you being serious?
racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, not noticing that there are different races of people.
By your logic everyone except the blind is inherently racist, but it's impossible not to notice that different races exist
At 2/6/10 07:06 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:At 2/6/10 11:47 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Thats what things seem to appear. If you say somebodys black. You can't say that. It's racist.wait, are you being serious?
racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, not noticing that there are different races of people.
That was meant to be said in a sarcastic tone. The internet has let me down again!
By your logic everyone except the blind is inherently racist, but it's impossible not to notice that different races exist
I never said that the blind can't be racist. I said that the blind have no experience of the world through vision. Nobody is inherently racist, but we are brought up with different beliefs, and it is us acting on those beliefs which makes such conflict. But the freedom for us to express our beliefs is a paradox of freedom, as long as such difference exists in the world. Discrimination must exist, and will always exist. Giving rights will never change that.
At 2/6/10 07:06 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:At 2/6/10 11:47 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Thats what things seem to appear. If you say somebodys black. You can't say that. It's racist.wait, are you being serious?
racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, not noticing that there are different races of people.
Racism is not noticing that there are different races of people, but it is (supposedly) acting on that difference and against that difference. If we believe in the superiority of race, we are being prejudice, but to act on our belief in a negative nature is where it becomes racism.
However if we were to act on such a belief we have the opportunity to be tolerant, and power is a component of toleration. This is because we cannot be intolerant without having power over which you can tolerate. If you think that through you will find that the only other components to toleration are acceptance, and objection.
So really there is a superiority in race naturally, unless people are treat as an equal people, in which case we would live in a free world, in which case you should read above to the 2nd last post I made.
I bet this guy is some ginger kid sitting on his big ass computer and making up philosophy with his friends on xbox live.
At 2/6/10 08:01 PM, snowy1993 wrote: I bet this guy is some ginger kid sitting on his big ass computer and making up philosophy with his friends on xbox live.
I bet this guy is some collage dropout sitting on his small ass computer and making up contradictions with his friends on xbox live.
Okay, I've been trying to understand this, but this thread is really warped/confusing.
At 2/6/10 07:37 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote:At 2/6/10 07:06 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:Racism is not noticing that there are different races of people, but it is (supposedly) acting on that difference and against that difference. If we believe in the superiority of race, we are being prejudice, but to act on our belief in a negative nature is where it becomes racism.At 2/6/10 11:47 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Thats what things seem to appear. If you say somebodys black. You can't say that. It's racist.wait, are you being serious?
racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, not noticing that there are different races of people.
You're asking if racism exists, and then debating on what it is?
Rascism definetly exists. But rascism isn't making a slightly steriotypical comment, it is considering your race better than a different race.
EX:
".....So I saw this black guy the other day-"
Not rascist at all.
..
At 2/6/10 09:45 AM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Some stuff
Hmm.. I like your attempted paradox. However, I personally think your concept isn't so accurate. A distinction between Race is more so a factual observation than an offensive assumption. The awareness of knowing racism exists is a gained knowledge. Therefore, put the two together and you can find out when someone is being racist when they say some thing like "That guy is black, he likes chicken". It's kind of knowing the difference between lions and tigers. Just because you notice that people categorize tigers differently than lions doesn't mean that you hate tigers in a subconscious, "paradox" statement.
I think racism is all about the way YOU, as an individual, give an attribute to someone you don't know which is based on their ethnic origin. I don't think racism is so much about the action you take upon other people than the way you consider these people.
Per example : I know that if I meet a Mexican, I will assume he has a horrible accent before I even start talking to him, and I will assume he's illiterate and so an idiot (according to my values of course) before I even talk to the poor guy.
But on the other hand, if I meet a white French-Canadian male age from 18 to 25, I will assume I could discuss litterature and politics with him, which will grant him the state of intelligent (again, according to my values)
I am racist in both cases, because I expect something based on the genetic pool both subjects come from.
Voltaire était un con, les quelques arpents de neiges l'envoient chier !
At 2/6/10 07:22 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote:
But the freedom for us to express our beliefs is a paradox of freedom, as long as such difference exists in the world. Discrimination must exist, and will always exist. Giving rights will never change that.
I normally dont visit this forum much, but after browsing through this thread, the above quote Griffon gave completely sums up his arguments.
And I completely agree, well, more or less I already have accepted that discrimination will always persist no matter what. This is purely because human experiences shape each individual beings views of the world. Fundamental beliefs forged early on create certain views of "right" and "wrong", and most cultures have such unfriendly mentalities towards other cultures not their own.
When you wish for equal rights between all, you must grant them the right to discriminate, so no matter what, discrimination MUST exist to prevent the loss of "Freedom"
At 2/6/10 10:59 AM, Saxturbation wrote:At 2/6/10 10:29 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I like the bit where you said that acknowledging that different races exist and that people treat others differently depending upon their race is racist.I agree with what you said; Well I agree if you were being sarcastic. People of course are going to treat other races differently based upon which race they are, it's only racist when it gets hateful.
But people always treat everyone differently based on how they look. It isn't just race, it's everything. Even in a room full of cracker-ass white people, they might look at each other differently based on freckles, hair, blemishes, facial structure, body type and so on. When you think about it, treating someone differently because they are black or latino is hardly different from treating someone differently because they have a genetic disorder or physical handicap. These are all things that are out of the control of the individual and have no bearing on the quality of their character. All of these behaviors are equally wrong.
People are a combination of chronic organizers and opinionated critics. We all like to categorize things into groups and we have personal tastes and opinions that we like to exercise. Say a black woman has no attraction to white men at all; she's never seen an attractive white man and she would never date a white man. That isn't racist, she just has certain tastes and it's her right to make choices like that.
I guess the answer is that racism exists for the same reasons that any other form of prejudice exists. It's all the same thing in the end.
At 2/13/10 01:45 AM, Jackotrades wrote:At 2/6/10 07:22 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote:When you wish for equal rights between all, you must grant them the right to discriminate, so no matter what, discrimination MUST exist to prevent the loss of "Freedom"
Lord. Show them the light!
Yet it is only through criticism that I can truely learn. So, I'll return later this week.
At 2/17/10 07:35 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote:At 2/13/10 01:45 AM, Jackotrades wrote:Lord. Show them the light!At 2/6/10 07:22 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote:When you wish for equal rights between all, you must grant them the right to discriminate, so no matter what, discrimination MUST exist to prevent the loss of "Freedom"
Yet it is only through criticism that I can truely learn. So, I'll return later this week.
OK let's make this clear boys...
You are saying that there is no such thing as racism, but also claiming that racial discrimination has to exist in order for there to be equal rights?
Maybe your definition of "racism" is a bit skewed. Racial discrimination is racism, whether hateful or not. If I was denied a job because someone made a generalization about me because of SKIN COLOR, that is not equal rights, yet it has nothing to do with hate, violence, KKK, nazi whatever. Yet in fact I have been a victim of racist discrimination. Someone has associated negative attributes to me simply by association with my racial characteristics.
If you associate a particular skin color with negative attributes, especially with someone you have never met or barely know, you are racist. Get over it, please.