Bloody Sunday

[Jon-86]

Today 30th of January in 1972 the army killed people on a civil rights march in Derry and started a 30 year war in Ireland. Truth be told equality has come a long way since then. But its the civil rights movement that history forgot.

Sure everyone remembers Martian Luther King and what he achieved. But most people forget that those terrorist in Ireland were fighting for equality as well.

Consider this a "what happened on this day in history" thread.

[SolInvictus]

At 1/30/10 07:19 PM, Jon-86 wrote: Consider this a "what happened on this day in history" thread.

we should probably have these more often, considering the number of forgotten civil rights tragedies.

irrelevant to topic but i couldn't help but notice that the motto of those fighting Franco and fascism in Spain was near identical to one by Mussolini (its better to live one day as a lion than a hundred as a sheep).

[Ledgey]

It was a horrific day in British history which should be looked back on with shame and acceptance so that a similar situation never occurs again.

But most people forget that those terrorist in Ireland were fighting for equality as well.

Terrorism never solves anything. And remember there are two sides to every story, more than half of the people in Northern Ireland did not consider them to be fighting for their equality.

At least now we are in a place where tactics like this would never be used, despite the ongoing attempts by Republicans to encourage such retaliations. Push forward through peaceful means, not through terrorism.

[Imperator]

Stop oppressing me peoples! Evil English pigs!!

Nah, as a professor of mine once said "Everyone has killed everyone. Everyone has oppressed everyone. Get over it".
Blacks have oppressed whites, whites have oppressed blacks. Irish lament Bloody Sunday, and yet....IRA activities aren't exactly "proud" moments.

Irish are as oppressed and oppressive as anyone else.
Linky for a fun article.

[fli]

yeah--
you can't compare the IRA with MLK.

IRA believes in violence.
MLK believed in peaceful resistance.

[mrpiex]

Lol u dumb

[freddorfman]

Beat me to making this thread Mate . Never Forget Beidh Ar Linn.

[snpurerandomness]

At 1/30/10 09:21 PM, Imperator wrote: Stop oppressing me peoples! Evil English pigs!!

Nah, as a professor of mine once said "Everyone has killed everyone. Everyone has oppressed everyone. Get over it".
Blacks have oppressed whites, whites have oppressed blacks. Irish lament Bloody Sunday, and yet....IRA activities aren't exactly "proud" moments.

Irish are as oppressed and oppressive as anyone else.
Linky for a fun article.

i think that you are a hypoctite calling us evil personaly i think that insulting other people should be illeagal not just on the forum but world wide and anyway people have died and killed for a reason they belived in and that should be respected
going of topic slightly Adolf Hitler did great things they were terrible but great and all other people should be thought of in the same way as this

[Imperator]

At 1/31/10 01:14 PM, snpurerandomness wrote: i think that you are a hypoctite calling us evil personaly i think that insulting other people should be illeagal not just on the forum but world wide and anyway people have died and killed for a reason they belived in and that should be respected
going of topic slightly Adolf Hitler did great things they were terrible but great and all other people should be thought of in the same way as this

yeeeaaaahhhh......
I really think you need to read the entire paragraph next time.....pretty sure the sarcasm was damn obvious....

And some punctuation would be nice.
But well done bringing in a Godwin's Law on a completely irrelevant thread!

[morefngdbs]

At 1/31/10 01:50 AM, fli wrote: yeah--
you can't compare the IRA with MLK.

;;;
You sure can't !
No one in the IRA could hold a candle to Micheal King , aka Martin Luther King jr.
The guy's a fraud, & the Government sealed all investigative evidence of that until 2027 !
If you or Mr King really were a candidate for sainthood, do any of you really believe records of the FBI investigations wouldn't be public record ?
People who are innocent of any wrong doing always have the proof of that sealed & set aside for 60 Years !
R I G H T !
http://www.martinlutherking.org/thebeast .html
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/m lking.asp

[fli]

Yeah--
the guys who made martinlutherking.org are the guys who created (hosted? nevertheless affiliated...) to Stormfront.

The KKK/ Neo-Nazi/ White Supremacist guys. Yeah-- "those guys."

As if you can believe in what they say.

MLK didn't bomb people. Didn't advocate killing folks. Didn't torture folks with rusty nails, shards of windows, cheese graters, and things of the sort.

I have no doubt that newer evidence suggest that he isn't the immaculate clean imaged person as I understood him as a kid (I'm speaking the whole plagiarism thing)-- It doesn't classify MLK in whatever category the IRA is in.

[Jon-86]

At 1/30/10 08:55 PM, Ledgey wrote: Terrorism never solves anything. And remember there are two sides to every story, more than half of the people in Northern Ireland did not consider them to be fighting for their equality.

At least now we are in a place where tactics like this would never be used, despite the ongoing attempts by Republicans to encourage such retaliations. Push forward through peaceful means, not through terrorism.

First good for you for acknowledging that this is something we can learn from and wasn't posted in order to gain sympathy from people who don't know any bette!

But you are right the IRA were not fighting for unionists as they had the better side of the deal. They got involved with it because it deteriorated into a sectarian conflict. Which wasn't the intention and was to be avoided but how can you inspire any level of tolerance when the the people in government say publicly that "they are a protestant parliament for a protestant people"?

I'm glad we have the peace process now also. But dont think because its not reported in the news that its only the so called dissident republicans who are attacking people or trying to destabilise things! Loyalist paramilitaries are still active and do still kill people.

At 1/30/10 09:21 PM, Imperator wrote: Stop oppressing me peoples! Evil English pigs!!

Nah, as a professor of mine once said "Everyone has killed everyone. Everyone has oppressed everyone. Get over it".
Blacks have oppressed whites, whites have oppressed blacks. Irish lament Bloody Sunday, and yet....IRA activities aren't exactly "proud" moments.

Irish are as oppressed and oppressive as anyone else.
Linky for a fun article.

You make me laugh! Mainly because of your ignorance and that you think I posted this just to bring it up! Did you miss the part where I mentioned "equality has come a long way since then" you must have.

Get over yourself :)

At 1/31/10 01:50 AM, fli wrote: yeah--
you can't compare the IRA with MLK.

IRA believes in violence.
MLK believed in peaceful resistance.

At 2/3/10 03:48 AM, fli wrote: MLK didn't bomb people. Didn't advocate killing folks. Didn't torture folks with rusty nails, shards of windows, cheese graters, and things of the sort.

I have no doubt that newer evidence suggest that he isn't the immaculate clean imaged person as I understood him as a kid (I'm speaking the whole plagiarism thing)-- It doesn't classify MLK in whatever category the IRA is in.

I think I can. Tell me how the civil rights movement in Ireland was any less legitimate than the civil rights movement in America? Both wanted to achieve the same objectives. Right. Is it anyone's fault that the one in Ireland was prevented from going down the peaceful route? Bloody Sunday itself was where the British killed off all hope of peaceful protest.

Think of it this way, hypothetically, the US government in the 30s pass a bill saying Black people have to follow a curfew, can't have public gatherings or meetings. They can be arrested without trial and were not allowed to produce or distribute their own political publications.

You can see how that could get in the way of a political movement.

Now imagine that before his famous speech, Martian Luther King is shot by the US army in broad daylight as well as a number of people who gathered for his speech. Do you think the majority of the civil rights campaigners at the time wouldn't have reacted violently when their own government dose that to them? That should quantify if for you.

And to answer your points about torture, well they didn't give you tea and crumpets when you were interned without trial in the 60s 70s 80s or 90s. As someone once said a long long time ago "if the British want to bring barbarity to these shores, we will respond with equal and greater barbarity"

At 1/31/10 11:18 AM, freddorfman wrote: Beat me to making this thread Mate . Never Forget Beidh Ar Linn.

Yous have your republic now I want mine :P Tiocfaidh ar la!

[Warforger]

At 2/2/10 04:53 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/31/10 01:50 AM, fli wrote: yeah--
you can't compare the IRA with MLK.

;;;
You sure can't !
No one in the IRA could hold a candle to Micheal King , aka Martin Luther King jr.
The guy's a fraud, & the Government sealed all investigative evidence of that until 2027 !
If you or Mr King really were a candidate for sainthood, do any of you really believe records of the FBI investigations wouldn't be public record ?
People who are innocent of any wrong doing always have the proof of that sealed & set aside for 60 Years !
R I G H T !
http://www.martinlutherking.org/thebeast .html
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/m lking.asp

Uhhh none of the info in those links incriminates MLK except the Prostitution scandal and the plagiarism, all it mostly is is the good ole' "OMG A COMMUNIST HE HATES AMERICA AND EVERYTHING ASSOCIATED!" bullshit , none of these are revelant at all to his civil rights movement at all, I bet you didn't know that Franklin Deleanor Roosevelt was an Alcoholic, yet he brought the nation out of its darkest times and helped win a global conflict, I bet you didn't know that while Abe Lincoln freed the slaves, he was racist towards Indians, and they weren't included in the amendment which expanded who could vote, he was also depressed as all his kids died, he worked day and night etc. All great leaders in American history had a couple skeletons in the closet, this one's no different.

[Imperator]

At 2/6/10 07:03 PM, Jon-86 wrote: You make me laugh! Mainly because of your ignorance and that you think I posted this just to bring it up! Did you miss the part where I mentioned "equality has come a long way since then" you must have.

....What the hell are you talking about? Ignorance of what?
You posted this for some other reason than to bring up Bloody Sunday? Is this thread really about your mom's pot roast and I just missed the cues? Not followin you buddy......not following you at all......

Get over yourself :)

Huh? I didn't realize I was on myself. Or under, or wherever you think I am. Maybe there's a miscommunication here; I thought the "everyone has killed everyone" phrase was pretty obvious, but maybe not.

[Jon-86]

At 2/6/10 11:43 PM, Imperator wrote: ....What the hell

Huh? I didn't realize I was on myself.

Come off it. You even said it yourself. You made a sarcastic post. I'm guessing because you have some kind of need to dismiss this, throwing in your professors opinion etc and a link to backup whatever point it is your trying to make.

Maybe your just playing devils advocate but you come off as a typical unionist who is full of himself or one who knows better, that he is always right in the end. Or did I read you wrong?

[Gunner-D]

At 2/2/10 04:53 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/31/10 01:50 AM, fli wrote: yeah--
you can't compare the IRA with MLK.

;;;
You sure can't !
No one in the IRA could hold a candle to Micheal King , aka Martin Luther King jr.
The guy's a fraud, & the Government sealed all investigative evidence of that until 2027 !
If you or Mr King really were a candidate for sainthood, do any of you really believe records of the FBI investigations wouldn't be public record ?
People who are innocent of any wrong doing always have the proof of that sealed & set aside for 60 Years !
R I G H T !

this is definitely one word away from hate speech.

Can i ask you, what does FBI confidentiality have to do with MLK JR.'s private life? do you think that the FBI is hiding this moral transgressions to enhance to popularity in American civil rights history? If so, who do you believe is influencing and/or operating the FBI at such a high level to protect Martin Luther King Jr.'s reputation?

You believe in this conspiracy? Or is it just another thing you support because the white supremacy movement tells you it's true?

You have decided to take a stance against this most highly reverend civil rights leader because of supposed petty sexual exploits?

THANK GOD for MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. and all who died for the rights of ALL OF US.

It's the courage of these men opens doors for those who believe in equality and keep cowards like the racists in the closet.

[fli]

At 2/6/10 07:03 PM, Jon-86 wrote: I think I can. Tell me how the civil rights movement in Ireland was any less legitimate than the civil rights movement in America? Both wanted to achieve the same objectives. Right. Is it anyone's fault that the one in Ireland was prevented from going down the peaceful route? Bloody Sunday itself was where the British killed off all hope of peaceful protest.

For starters, MLK didn't advocate violence. Now, that should be the final point to the difference between the two. (But I have to press on...)

The IRA and the INLA use violence with complete disregard to human life. Where as King believed that people have to sacrifice themselves for a bigger cause, the others believe sacrificing others. (The INLA probably even more so.)

Plus, those two groups are bonkers... has anyone watched or read The Lieutenant of Inishmore? JESUS FUCK, that's insane.

And the irony here is that the most violent character, Padraic, talks about a peaceful Ireland where kids and kitten can frolic without their brains being bashed by guns... and he has said this after violently slaying 5 men... the last one slowly torturing before killing.

Now, that's a play that speaks truth about the Irish/British conflict.

There are ways towards goals, but violence shouldn't be part of it. Especially if it's cowardly like bombing shit. What did those people ever do to warrant their lives killed? Or severely maimed? Nothing at all except being part of a group-- but there is no account of individual sin.

Think of it this way, hypothetically, the US government in the 30s pass a bill saying Black people have to follow a curfew, can't have public gatherings or meetings. They can be arrested without trial and were not allowed to produce or distribute their own political publications.

Try being gay and being on the lowest on the social totem pole. How would you like if the Irish and the British, historical enemies, getting together for a truce to total bitch slap your people, your culture, and your family. All the while you're categorized as pedophile, deviant, and moral shit-- and really, all you want to do is just live life normally and happily.

I'm not trying to create a "who suffers more" competition, but I can understand what's it like to be in a current struggle.

And the only way you can fight a good fight is to use literature, passive resistance, strikes, boycotts, and things like that. With the exception of a few asshole groups (like the "Bash Back!") The gay civil rights movement is an example how progress is being made without violence.

You can see how that could get in the way of a political movement.

Now imagine that before his famous speech, Martian Luther King is shot by the US army in broad daylight as well as a number of people who gathered for his speech. Do you think the majority of the civil rights campaigners at the time wouldn't have reacted violently when their own government dose that to them? That should quantify if for you.

MLK told people how to react to violence! Don't be violent in return! I mean, what would had been the entire point of the whole passive resistance thing if people flip flopped on the whole principal?

Turning the other cheek doesn't really work unless you turn the other cheek.

And to answer your points about torture, well they didn't give you tea and crumpets when you were interned without trial in the 60s 70s 80s or 90s. As someone once said a long long time ago "if the British want to bring barbarity to these shores, we will respond with equal and greater barbarity"

And look how long it's taking. And no progress in sight either. A bloody war that's only akin to the middle east conflict.

AND YET--
India won its Independence using Ghandi's examples.
Black gained their rights using King's example.
Mexicans, Chicanos, and all farm workers won their rights using Ceaser Chavez's examples

And these people had been attacked and killed too.

How are people gonna remember Bloody Sunday if the IRA is making a dozen other Bloody Sundays? People won't. People are just gonna react and react and react instantaneously-- violently.

But when people think about King, do you know what many of them remember? "Birmingham Jail Letters."

When you keep an account like the Jail Letters, then people actually remember and strive to work for peace.

Because, as many comedians has told the world, bombing for peace is like fucking for your virginity